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Author Topic: Scaring the straights  (Read 65600 times)

ZooT_aLLures

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Re: Scaring the straights
« Reply #150 on: April 23, 2010, 03:40:48 pm »

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We are being "farmed" and no one is paying attention.

Don't include me in your "we."

That's something of interest...........as most of the folks that hang around this place aren't a part of societies "we"...........and that's probably about the only defining factor that all have in common.
So while not a part of one "we" it would seem that another "we" has come into being if only to differentiate from those who would choose subservience over sovereignity.

And if one actively engages themselves ore are engaged by parents within the system............then yes indeed we are being "farmed".............we'll be tested as children in school, and our higher education tailored for some particular task which suits the results of the testing.........and then plopped into a cubicle or some other work area to labor until we drop over dead, and systematically fleeced all along the way......

And this "freedom movement", in reality, is not much less, but maybe more than an objection to this farming.........and in the eyes of the farmers, is nothing more than livestock that are constantly wondering away from the plantation.........

Which brings us to this new health care thing...........where the IRS and the health care industry are willingly or unwillingly working to build another row of fences around the plantation thus to ensure that ALL the livestock gets fleeced or milked, and that those the refuse and are outside the fence, and those that continue to test the fence get (creative language here) slaughtered and fed to any would think of doing the same, as an example.............

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This is what I'm hearing here. Somehow, anyone who doesn't fit a certain criteria for intelligence, philosophy (or whatever) is somehow disposable, their lives don't matter and their children are automatically some kind of lesser beings.

No.............what I'm saying is that responsibility for children lies with the parents alone.........and if the parents refuse, and someone else decides to hop in.............it's their choice..............and they well could be be taken to the cleaners.

It DOESN'T "take a village to raise a child" it takes a parent, or maybe two.............and that through time, considering that the government of this country actively attempts to legislate morality..............the "moral duty" to raise any child regardless of the lack of care by that childs parents is now "the law of the land'...........and the price to be paid as a result of this legislated morality is more than many can bear............which very well could put their children into the same level of "neglect" as the children of those who don't care.....

Here in the ghetto, if one were to feed two uncared for children today, tomorrow there would be 22, and the next day, the pigs, and the civil serpents would be here to drag me off to jail for running an unliscenced day care center...............because I'd be, at that point, "testing the fence" and would therefore be a threat.......
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Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed.

We all have some scar tissue that never lets us completely forget the intent of the adventure.

MamaLiberty

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Re: Scaring the straights
« Reply #151 on: April 23, 2010, 03:44:00 pm »

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No.............what I'm saying is that responsibility for children lies with the parents alone.........and if the parents refuse, and someone else decides to hop in.............it's their choice..............and they well could be be taken to the cleaners.

Where did I say it was anyone else's responsibility? Where did I say it was not a matter of choice? We're talking apples and oranges here.
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Radio Flyer

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Re: Scaring the straights
« Reply #152 on: April 23, 2010, 04:05:24 pm »

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Our problem is that to take for example a talented craftsman is "equal" to a drug addicted thuggish moron

I guess it depends on your definition of equal. They are "equal" in absolutely nothing but the fact that they are human and have the same human rights. A newborn infant has exactly the same human rights as any other human. The fact that he or she can't yet exercise those rights does not negate them.

Now, you have every right to believe otherwise as much as you wish, of course.

And nobody, from the richest and most influential to the most depraved crack head has any "right" to impose anything on anyone else. That's the whole point! That's what makes all humans equal!! :)  And that only means that we must treat them as such... INCLUDING pulling the trigger if they attack us - in whatever form that comes.

Yes, freedom is dangerous. Life is full of incredible risk. And there is no way to avoid it if we hope to live free.

I choose to live free, considering each other human as an individual (and imperfect) human being and not as automatically part of some group - whether I like them or not.

There is a difference in "equal" and "equally free", that BTW was one of the biggest "typos" ever (and an interesting side note because of the issue of slavery).

Groups are, or can be both artificial constructs and natural, even if we deny it all humans will "group up" in ways that identify us. Currently we are part of a farm and we are like it or not livestock "testing the fence".

We are in agreement, I do look at people as individuals and I think that all should be "equally free", but I am also not going to teach my children that all humans are equal - that is a politically correct religious fantasy.

We are in agreement on the issues of free choice, it looks like our real bone of contention is the concept of equal human "value"... I can live with that difference, under a free system it works outside of that contention - does it not?

Now the active issue, we can choose to "live free" but are we? We currently have "farmers" and if we become too troublesome they will cage or kill us, so regardless of our choices - we are in the fence.
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MamaLiberty

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Re: Scaring the straights
« Reply #153 on: April 23, 2010, 04:34:08 pm »

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so regardless of our choices - we are in the fence.

You can choose to believe that, of course. Once again... do not include me in your "we."
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ZooT_aLLures

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Re: Scaring the straights
« Reply #154 on: April 23, 2010, 04:50:23 pm »

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so regardless of our choices - we are in the fence.

No...........that's incorrect, many are outside the fence.........and it's a risky place to live........

In the past, these folks were called "outlaws" as they lived outside of the umbrella and protection of the law...........now they're just called criminals by those who tend the fences............and only because they're hurting for money
And as I've said before...........this IRS/health care thing is just a way to legitimize labeling those outside the fence as criminals to scare those thinking of what it might be like to live outside the fence, and not under the umbrella/protection/ control of the law....
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Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed.

We all have some scar tissue that never lets us completely forget the intent of the adventure.

Radio Flyer

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Re: Scaring the straights
« Reply #155 on: April 23, 2010, 04:59:16 pm »

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so regardless of our choices - we are in the fence.

You can choose to believe that, of course. Once again... do not include me in your "we."

We will simply have to agree to disagree on that issue, unless we can come to some middle ground I do not see.

I am forced to fill out a 1040 each year

My clients are forced to send my 1099 forms

I am forced to renew my drivers license by state law

I am forced to carry and show my DL or my US passport to travel

I my monopoly of force am required to pay taxes that support wars that kill (currently "brown people who talk funny and worship the devil") innocent people and support un-Constitutional programs

I have to pay property taxes on things I have already paid for - so by default I do not own my property (one of the great loopholes in the Constitution BTW)

Unless you are wandering "off grid" on land you have no connection to and refuse a DL and don't register your motor car/truck you are subject to the same laws...

How is that free,, and how are you not part of this if you live in the US?

Please don't get me wrong, I often come off as "agitating" but that is NOT my goal, my goal is to learn by communication, something I do here on the MMF all the time. I am trying to understand, regardless if we would agree on every point.

And to zoot - I understand the outlaw concept, and the risks, but if someone is living "within the law" is that not "inside the fence", and by definition as long as we accept the tax laws, pay, and register everything as required how could we be "outside the fence"?
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ZooT_aLLures

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Re: Scaring the straights
« Reply #156 on: April 23, 2010, 05:14:40 pm »

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And to zoot - I understand the outlaw concept, and the risks, but if someone is living "within the law" is that not "inside the fence", and by definition as long as we accept the tax laws, pay, and register everything as required how could we be "outside the fence"?
whose to say that such is the case?

The tax laws, and the pay and register everything denotes ownrship of something to be taxed and registered...........and not all own such things.............

As far as feeding the kids go............it might be a good time to make an offer of some form of "work" to those who aren't feeding their kids.............and let the parents know that if the work isn't accepted the food won't be given..................after all, the giver has to work for the money to buy the food.............and there's no reason why the parents shouldn't do a bit of work so as to have their kids fed.........
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Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed.

We all have some scar tissue that never lets us completely forget the intent of the adventure.

Faydra6

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Re: Scaring the straights
« Reply #157 on: April 24, 2010, 12:33:23 am »

I find the above conversations pretty interesting, but Zoo I think you are wrong.  I have watched my own "below intelligence" family tear itself apart with drug abuse, alcoholism, and major sexual and moral problems.  The worst thing is how they brought their kids into it.   Some of the things we went through makes me sick.  But a few of us cousins decided to live our lives differently.  I don't know why, but I can say in my case I wanted a different future for my children.  I saw what drugs, alcohol, and sexual immorality did to peoples lives and wanted no part of that.  Not because of the adults, if they want to destroy themselves thats their right, but because of what it did to the kids who were raised by people like that.  Some of my other cousins are now drug addicts and alcoholics and their kids are being raised abused and neglected.  It breaks my heart because I look at them and see the same basic possibilities that my own children were born with being twisted.

I have an amazing life now, not special, just normal.  But in your estimation people who are "below normal" shouldn't be given the chance at that.  If the world was like that I wouldn't even be here now

I have watched the train wreck of abusive people raising kids over and over.   Almost all children are born with the same possibilities.  It is what they are taught that makes the difference.

If all a child sees is a abusive immature parent who only lives for todays pleasures, then what will that child learn?  Most parenting and lifestyles come from what we see growing up.  And as we all know our culture is becoming more and more violent and me oriented.  What can we then expect from the children raised in this savage kingdom?  Most of them will never be told about anything other than me first.

But put that same child as a baby in a loving family who wants to teach integrity, justice, and kindness and you will have a totally different outcome.

Also intelligence is relative.  There is a guy at my husbands work who can barely read, but is able to fix the most complex machinery problems in a huge plant!  He leads a good life, has children he loves, and is a nice guy.  But because his intelligence isn't what we would call normal many people would say he should be culled. 

I also have a niece who is severely disabled.  She will never live on her own.  But my family and I have learned more about unconditional love and joy from her than from anything else.  I now look at the world in a different and richer way.  If she had been culled at birth I would have never known that kind of awakening.

Bottom line is that we have no right to decide who is worthy of life and freedom!  Once we start down that path our civilization will turn and destroy itself just like every other culture that has tried it.
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Radio Flyer

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Re: Scaring the straights
« Reply #158 on: April 24, 2010, 02:14:26 am »

Bottom line is that we have no right to decide who is worthy of life and freedom!  Once we start down that path our civilization will turn and destroy itself just like every other culture that has tried it.

No one here has suggested anything of the sort in this thread, what has been proposed is that we should have the freedom to CHOOSE to help or not help, choose to feel compassion, choose to have charity, or choose to close in on our own families and friends and take care of our own first without having the State take by force what we have earned to pass on to others. Freedom is dangerous, and no one here has proposed anyone be shackled by less freedom, nor decide the fate of anyone we do not directly have care of, are you proposing that by refusing charity to someone we do not think worth our earned surplus is equal to genocidal intent?

I am familiar with emotional appeals as you have posted, but what is more cruel, feeding everyone for a few days and have 90% starve, or let the most able support their own and have 50% prosper? I am afraid that statistics are against many of your proposals, our desire for an outcome will not have any effect on it's actual progression.

Our civilization has already turned on itself and is in it's final death throws. No one has suggested anything about deciding from a statist position only from an individual prospective - I think we should have the right to choose as individuals where our earned surplus goes, if we use a value scale in a triage for support is that not the right of the individual?

Remember eugenics is not something that came from the German NSDAP that was an American promotion, and it was intended not on culling anyone from the population but to offer to select individuals a reward for sterilization, purely voluntary. The later application of some of the concepts under State direction and control is where most Americans see eugenics, they know nothing of it's origin.
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Faydra6

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Re: Scaring the straights
« Reply #159 on: April 24, 2010, 04:14:47 pm »

Radio flyer Said: [ are you proposing that by refusing charity to someone we do not think worth our earned surplus is equal to genocidal intent?

I am familiar with emotional appeals as you have posted, but what is more cruel, feeding everyone for a few days and have 90% starve, or let the most able support their own and have 50% prosper? I am afraid that statistics are against many of your proposals, our desire for an outcome will not have any effect on it's actual progression.

Our civilization has already turned on itself and is in it's final death throws. No one has suggested anything about deciding from a statist position only from an individual prospective - I think we should have the right to choose as individuals where our earned surplus goes, if we use a value scale in a triage for support is that not the right of the individual?">>

RF

I was not talking about TEOTWASWKI.  That has not happened yet.  It may never happen in our lifetimes (though I doubt it).  Nor am I suggesting state forced charity, which is a joke anyways!  However it has become increasingly popular thinking in our culture to devalue those whose lives are deemed below standard.   And I am not talking about feel good emotions.  I was stating that if we start to decide who is deserving of life just so everyone can fit into our  preconceived notions of usefullness then we are on the short path to destruction.

When is life worth living?   How much can we give up before turning into something monstrous? It can become monstrous faster than you think.  Take a look at China and the birth policies.  Can you imagine being forced to abort an 8 month old baby you have carried and felt growing inside of you?  It leaves deep scars, those women suffer for life and that transfers to the society one way or another.  They are just starting to see major fallout from those policies.  Just as our civilization is fragile, so is our idea of freedom.  How easy to become another Germany or China.  If you look at the people in those countries they just accept it as normal what is happening.  Of course they know it really is bad, but hey thats the "law" right.

What I'm trying to say is that when you restrict the basic rights of humans unintended consequences happen.  The society starts cracking, calling for more controls.  I would rather go through a SHTF situation than fascism any day.  Fascism is more than just control, it kills the spirit of people.

"Remember eugenics is not something that came from the German NSDAP that was an American promotion, and it was intended not on culling anyone from the population but to offer to select individuals a reward for sterilization, purely voluntary. The later application of some of the concepts under State direction and control is where most Americans see eugenics, they know nothing of it's origin."

I know this, but whenever a country tries to implement eugenics it always ends up as non-voluntary.  American intellectuals came up with it, but it was never implemented here beyond alot of big talk.  So you can't say that it didn't go that way in America. 

When our civilization goes belly up everything will change.  And in a horrible way.  We will have to make decisions that will haunt us.   I will not be able to help everyone, even people deserving of it.  Maybe not even my own family.  You will not have a choice anymore when it comes to who gets what, you may look at starvation yourself.

   I just don't pretend that is wont hurt to do it.  I will never be able to turn people away without knowing that they are going to die.  And I hope it will never stop hurting, because if it does than something inside me has broken.
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motomom

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Re: Scaring the straights
« Reply #160 on: April 24, 2010, 08:35:25 pm »

This amounts to the toughest questions that I have had to deal with in my life.  To see a child that through no fault of their own is suffering with a totally dysfunctional parent is hard, if you take the child and raise it right, or help, you merely enable the dysfunctional adult to have more children.  If you don't help, the child keeps suffering.
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gaurdduck

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Re: Scaring the straights
« Reply #161 on: April 25, 2010, 04:03:30 am »

This amounts to the toughest questions that I have had to deal with in my life.  To see a child that through no fault of their own is suffering with a totally dysfunctional parent is hard, if you take the child and raise it right, or help, you merely enable the dysfunctional adult to have more children.  If you don't help, the child keeps suffering.

Evil triumphs only when good people do nothing. By not helping when you could have, you give your silent consent to that evil.

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Faydra6

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Re: Scaring the straights
« Reply #162 on: April 25, 2010, 09:30:11 am »

This amounts to the toughest questions that I have had to deal with in my life.  To see a child that through no fault of their own is suffering with a totally dysfunctional parent is hard, if you take the child and raise it right, or help, you merely enable the dysfunctional adult to have more children.  If you don't help, the child keeps suffering.

Having a good person in that childs life can change everything!  I know many people who have told me how one persons kindness in their life helped them turn to a good way of living.  You never know how one act of kindness, or selflessness on your part can change a childs way of looking at the world.  And I don't mean giving them stuff.  I mean just being there.  Taking the time to teach the kid something.  We have a little girl who lives down the street and she comes from a really messed up family.  She has lots of problems, but I let her come over as much as possible to get her out of that.  She may live the way she has been raised but maybe not.
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ZooT_aLLures

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Re: Scaring the straights
« Reply #163 on: April 26, 2010, 05:20:30 pm »

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By not helping when you could have, you give your silent consent to that evil.

Yeah.........but on the other hand by helping, in  this particular case where help "isn't " needed, because it's NOT "needed" as the money is there, it's just pissed away on dope and drink instead...........

The problem isn't the kids, it's the parents.............treating the problem without curing the problem, leaves the problem intact while only dealing with the particular symptoms that one finds offensive...........

It's a sticky situation.........logic, emotion, and principles all come into play.............and regardless of what choice one makes, one of the three are going to end up up flapping in the wind, being unresolved...........
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Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed.

We all have some scar tissue that never lets us completely forget the intent of the adventure.

Who...me?

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Re: Scaring the straights
« Reply #164 on: April 26, 2010, 06:08:45 pm »

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By not helping when you could have, you give your silent consent to that evil.

Yeah.........but on the other hand by helping, in  this particular case where help "isn't " needed, because it's NOT "needed" as the money is there, it's just pissed away on dope and drink instead...........

The problem isn't the kids, it's the parents.............treating the problem without curing the problem, leaves the problem intact while only dealing with the particular symptoms that one finds offensive...........

It's a sticky situation.........logic, emotion, and principles all come into play.............and regardless of what choice one makes, one of the three are going to end up up flapping in the wind, being unresolved...........

Ya Zoot yer right.  The parents are the problem but I have no power (or desire) to make them do anything...including see the error of their ways.  My wife and I have talked to them in the past...and have been routinely ignored.  We got the same eye rolling attitude that everyone gets when the recipient of your advise didn't want to hear what you had to say. Even when they came to us asking for advise.  So we don't bother with them anymore...they are after all adults even if they don't act like it. 

So we do what we can...feed the kids now and then and try to show them by example that you get out of life what you put into it. 
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