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[Joel]

He said the original "new" cast Springfields were good, but not the more recent ones, he says they're cutting corners and told them so.

Okay, that raises the question I should have asked to begin with.  How recent is "more recent"?

[OLD TIRED RN]

Folks, I most certainly am NOT an expert in this field of hi-tech, metalurgy, etc.  I'm just a rifle user and not much of one at that.  I used to shoot a lot, but not so much since this heart trouble and back trouble.  I'm just thinking that if all those M 14's they used in the Pre-Viet Nam era and during Viet Nam till the M-16 came along and didn't all blow up, they should be good for us now.  I mean, those rifles made by SA used during the war seemed to hold up well.  Friends of mine who were over there always wanted them even after they were taken up by the brass to be replaced by the "poodle popper"/M-16.  That would most certainly have not been the case if they were as unreliable as the early M-16's were.

I'd say buy a good quality rifle AFTER having it checked by a competent gun smith.  Make sure it is sound, has the proper head space, etc. and expect to pay a reasonable price allowing a reasonable profit.  After all, as the old folks say, "all things have cost and all costs are passed on.  Also, you always pay for what you get/only if you are fortunate do you get what you pay for." 

Anyone with adequate resources would be very well advised to "stock up" NOW, while ammo is still available.  Supply is drying up fast of the low priced surplus ammo.  ALSO gun prices are all going up FAST.  Check with your local dealer and you'll learn as I have that supply really got bought up FAST during and shortly after Katrina on the gulf coast.  If only one area of the country pulled down the ready supply of arms/ammo on the store/warehouse shelf as badly as this one catastrophe did, just think of several of them or wide spread "trouble."  Even if still legal to sell in FFL dealers stores, the supply could so quickly dry up as to effectively limit the sale.  Also, gun/ammo companies are relatively small companies by comparison.  Sudden run up in demand would not be met with a sudden large increase in supply as the mfg. capabilities of these relaitvely small companies would remain about the same as it is now.

             Read and Heed, RN

[Misfit]

Don't know what the time line of ok to not so good is with the newer Springfield guns are. I can ask Ron Smith the next time I talke to him. I don't know about the Sprinfields, but the Polytechs were produced starting around 1985, which is about when my M14 was produced.

Ammo: I spoke to a guy at a gun show a few weeks ago who just sells ammo and he said the prices have gone up, the Russians suppliers are on strike, some cartridges he is absolutely out of and expects to be waiting 2 or 3 months. He also said everytime he gets the green tip ammo ("which is apparently armor piercing") he sells out. I bought a case of .308 from him and he held it at his table until I was finished at the show. When I returned he told me that two other people came by and tried to buy it off him, even offered him more than I paid. "Sorry boys...the girl got here first." I asked him if he thought that the ammo could dry up "on purpose" as a means of gun control and he looked at me like that was a new, but feasible idea..."Yeah, they could do that, I bet."

[UH1]

I was just reminded of the following information: The Defense Department closed Springfield Armory in the late 60's.  Later the Springfield Armory brand name was purchased by a private company.  Bottom line is the M14 in Vietnam was made by different people on different machines than the modern M1A.

[Misfit]

Yes, I mentioned that earlier... It was bought by a couple of soybean farmers back in the early 80's. I think it's kind of deceptive, b/c everytime I talk to someone who has a new Springfield they give me the "It's a Springfield" line like I'm supposed to be impressed. Like it's the same armory that produced the Garand. I'd be much more impressed by a Fulton these days.

[oldsarge]

The M1 Garand was the finest battle weapon ever devised...until the M14 came along.  The gov decided we didn't need it to win wars - ask the guys in Iraq how they feel about that - so we went with the M16.  Bad choice.  If you want a good M1A, save your money and get one from Springfield Armory.  Buy milsurp mags or those from ProMag, and US or "noncom" ammo, and you will have a winner.  Lots of GI parts are still available.  You deserve the best - so does our country.

Semper Fi

(PS- the M1 Garand ain't bad)

[frmr180A]

"Forged vs cast M-14s/M1As" has become one of THE gun debates ala "AR vs AK", "9mm vs 45ACP" etc, etc - ad nauseum. 

As with everything else - the key here is realistic assessment. Each prospective buyer has to realisticly assess their needs, capabilities and budget. The next step is to gather ACCURATE information from as many sources as possible before purchasing.

I've owned an M1A for 18 years, carried an M-14 type rifle in the field as often as possible for 20 years, been trained by the Army as an armorer and built over two dozen M-14s from parts as a 'smith. You COULD say I have a little experience... 

If SA's cast receivers were failing as much as some detractors claim, they would have to either RADICALLY improve QC or go out of business. They're STILL in business and the M1A family is one of the most popular among firearms owners. Of course there are problem rifles but, SA stands behind their product - I actually know of only ONE person who had to send a rifle back and he was well-treated and had his rifle back quickly.

If Clint McKee is so down on cast receivers, why does he use CAST receivers made by Armscorp for EVERY Fulton built rifle?

LRB make A LOT of claims - I haven't handled their product, so I can't really comment from experience. Altho' I believe that's who was alluded to above regarding the difference between machining vs ACTUAL forging.

I've handled and shot both Norincos and Polytechs - some original and some re-heattreated and fitted with GI parts. They're fine rifles for the money. If it were me, I'd rather be able to use GI parts.

Much as I'd love to have a GI M-14 of my own, that's not possible - so I went with the next best option.

My Fulton built rifle - Armscorp receiver, Kreiger bbl and GI parts - has over 12,000 rounds through it without a hiccup.

The M-25 I built - Armscorp receiver, GI NM bbl and GI parts - has close to 9,000 rounds through it and no issues.

The latest is an SA SOCOM - 2,500 rounds fired so far and no problems.

Considering that the original GI receivers are conservatively rated for 50,000 rounds, I imagine my rifles - cast receivers all - will hold up for a good LONG while!

Chief D

[OLD TIRED RN]

180A,

   Thanks for the good analysis.  You other folks as well.  I STILL say, the average civilian isn't EVER going to shoot one of these rifles, actually any of them, enough to hurt one if proper ammo is used.  By that I mean like never use magnum ammo in something like the old venerable M1 Garand.  The mechanism is not made for it.  I have an old one marked 1958 that shoots GREAT from SA.  I can now see how it was that a friend of mine said when he was in service/war that they fought with that rifle from mountain top to mountain top with good results.

                                 RN

[oldsarge]

Hey RN - good to hear (or read) you again!  What a concept, an M1 Garand magnum!  That old rifle is superb as is, as you have stated, but what an idea - 30-06 Magnum - can you imagine what that puppy would be like?  If it ever comes out, I'm getting one!  Then think: 308 Magnum - an M14/M1A Magnum!  That would put a whole new meaning on the best battle weapon. Know any good weaponsmiths? 

Semper Fi -Sarge

[Ian]

Would 5 rounds of .338 Win Mag do the trick?

If not, how about 5 rounds of .458 Win Mag?

 

[UH1]

I used a web services that can show old internet pages and came up with the following useful information at the old Smith Enterprises site. 

M14 RIFLE PARTS COMPARISON
    Smith Enterprise has done much in Research and Development and has performed many services.  We recommend that no projectile weighing more than a 168 grains be used for any reason.  Heavier projectiles increase chamber pressures which can strain the receiver and in time may become dangerous.  Powders vary in pressure curves, this depends on type and lot number of powder, also effecting pressure is the brass (military and civilian brass differ).      We will not provide reload information.  Reloads should be approached with caution. 
RECEIVERS
OPERATION ROD
BOLT
GAS CYLINDER

REAR SIGHT ASSEMBLY
BARREL
TRIGGER GROUP
STOCK
OPERATION ROD SPRING

RECEIVERS:
SMITH ENTERPRISE:  Okay so we are biased.  However, as we make the receivers, we perform our special modifications and build rifles out of them, to ensure they fit and function properly. The goal is to meet our standard.  We have made them in Cast and Billet "Forged", our present receivers are Cast.  If we ever start again.
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY:  A good cast receiver, we don't have to do much reworking to ensure proper operation and unless requested we do not rework the receiver to our standard.  We have come across some receivers that were a little soft.  Our heat treatment is very beneficial. 
ARMSCORP:  A good hard cast receiver.
ENTREPRISE ARMS:  A good hard Billet "Forged" receiver. Assembles well & is heat treated to proper standards. We have built a number of these for people and have had no problems. We expect the new ones to be even better! For more info on price, etc. call Smith Enterprise.
CHINESE:  Good Billet receivers (there is no real difference between Poly Technologies and Norinco). The receivers do vary in hardness, in 1999 we experienced receivers ranging from 41Rc to 60Rc, Mil. Spec. is 49Rc to 56Rc.   After we rework the receiver to accept USGI bolts, we generally have very little work to obtain good lug contact.  We do perform our special modifications and recommend heat treatment when necessary.  However, it would benefit the receiver to get the heat treatment any way.
FEDERAL ORDNANCE:  We have performed some miracles with these receivers.  These receivers were sold three ways 1) as receivers only, 2) rifles built with USGI parts and 3) rifles built with Chinese parts. Fitting a USGI bolt takes about 2 to 4 hours extra labor.  The hardness has always been hard, we have seen them where they are so hard they are brittle and have shattered.   We can not fix all the dimensional problems.
WELDS:  We know of individuals that have performed this task well and unless it has their marking we can't really give our opinion about any others.   We have built well performing rifles for our Clients who have purchased them.

OPERATION ROD
UP
USGI:  Forged and hard. Manufactured by Winchester, TRW, Springfield, Harrington and Richardson and Sako. Any are great if fit correctly to the receiver
SPRINGFIELD: Commercial grade are Cast and soft, we have experienced many that are gauled and bent. Replace them with USGI or Chinese.
CHINESE: Have tested them and find them equivalent to USGI, they are forged and the last two tested showed a Rockwell between 38-42Rc.
WELDS:  They are USGI, but welded.  We have encountered many that were very well done and usable.  Look for bends and mismatched widths.   Can be great and are better than Cast.

BOLT
UP
USGI: TRW, Winchester, Springfield, Harrington and Richardson are forged and hard.  Not all are the same just because they have the same manufacturer.  There may be as much as .004" difference from one to another.   Check headspace if changing bolts don't rely upon the same brand.
SPRINGFIELD: Commercial, have not seen many in the last few years but at one time Springfield put out Cast bolts.  They need to be replaced.
CHINESE:  This is the real problem with these rifles.   If you or anyone you know has a Chinese rifle, get the bolt replaced.  Don't let just anyone do it.  We have had many rifles come in that have had a "Gunsmith" or "Armorer" attempt to install a USGI Bolt.  They have reworked the Bolt instead of the receiver, we have seen many a good bolt hit the garbage.  Almost every Chinese rifle we have had come in to us, whether it has never fired or has had a few hundred rounds through it, has had an excessive headspace.  Send us the rifle for our "Bolt Conversion".

GAS CYLINDER
UP
USGI:  Made of 416 Stainless Steel, Piston is 416 Stainless Steel, Cylinder Plug is also 416 Stainless Steel.  Designed to fight corrosion.  In our opinion, don't waste you money on "Titanium" coated pistons.  Cylinder, Piston and Cylinder plug can be used on Chinese Barrels.
CHINESE:  Made of Chromoly Steel, Piston is hard chromed.  Piston O.D. and Cylinder I.D. are larger than USGI spec., have had USGI Piston operate in Chinese Cylinders.  Cylinder Plug is Chromoly and has metric threads as does the Cylinder Locking Ring. Cylinder, Piston and Cylinder plug can be used with US made barrels and are very reliable and sturdy.

REAR SIGHT ASSEMBLY
UP
USGI:  Generally operate well on all receivers. Standard have 1" MOA windage and elevation correction and National Match have 1/2" MOA. NM sight assembles need proper attention during assembly.  Parts are not interchangeable with Chinese.
CHINESE:  We have experienced very few that work well.  Most of the time the Windage threads of the base were not properly tapped.  This causes the sight base to be pushed into the top of the receiver. There is also the difficulty with getting the proper tension for the Elevation Knob so that the sight does not jump during shooting.  We have been successful at times in getting these sights to operate at a serviceable level but still are not overly satisfied.  Parts are not interchangeable with USGI.

BARREL
UP
USGI or U.S.:  Several USGI and commercial makers are available.  USGI barrels have Chrome lined barrels and can provide very good accuracy.  Most commercial barrels are not chrome lined and are going to be of match grade.  Barrel accuracy can vary and it does not matter who the maker is.  If the barrel is bad it is just bad.
CHINESE:  Equivalent to USGI barrels. There are two metric threads on the barrel, one for the "Gas Cylinder Lock" and one for the "Castle Nut".  The Castle Nut threads are very close to U.S. threads and can be converted, but the Gas Cylinder Lock threads are too fine.  We have Clients getting 1" groups with these barrels.  They are generally very good barrels, but like U.S. barrels, you can get a lemon.

TRIGGER GROUP
UP
USGI:  Desirable. Forged steel- Hammers, Triggers and Trigger Housing.  We have had very few that were not serviceable. 
SPRINGFIELD: Commercial. We have had a few M1A's come in with Cast Hammers and Trigger Housings. While serviceable we do not know how long the hammer will last so we recommend it be replaced.  The housing is serviceable, if it is not distorted, but not very desirable.
CHINESE:  Equivalent to USGI. The last hammers we had tested measured between 48Rc and 51Rc.  The hardness is not as deep as a USGI Hammer but we have many Clients that are still using them with no problem.

STOCK
UP
U.S.: Any stock in serviceable condition is useable.  However, just because the wood looks nice does not mean the stock is serviceable.  If the rear left corner of the receiver sticks over the stock it is not serviceable.  If there is a crack, the stock is not serviceable.  Walnut, Laminated and Birch stocks are available as are heavy and light Synthetic stocks. 
CHINESE:  These stocks are dimensionally different and of a lighter wood, but they are serviceable, but we don't like them.  If you want to put a USGI stock on a Chinese Rifle, the stock must be worked to fit properly.

OPERATION ROD SPRING
UP
USGI:  These are the standard.  Ensure your operation spring is not worn, it is designed to cut down the inertia of the operation rod and bolt.  Most receiver failures have occurred due to the bolt hitting the rear of the receiver to hard.  Often caused by a  weak and worn operation rod spring.
CHINESE:  This Operation Rod Spring should be replaced with a USGI.  The Hammer Spring, Ejector Spring and Extractor Spring are of good quality.