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[Misfit]

Well, I gotta tell you....I've studied BTP Gun Bible, I know what he says, but he's talking ideal scenarions...as in "I've got gobs of cash and access to buy anything out there". This just doesn't seem to be real life. Not anymore, at least. American M14 and M1As with forged receivers are just not around. They've been sucked up and stashed away. Nobody in their right minds are selling. Sooo...when given the choice between getting a new Polytech M1A or no M14 style gun, I went with getting a Polytech. BTP says they're usually pretty good. I'm going to send it out to get it headspaced and heat-treated. I would walk from a Norinco, but this really did look nice. Chromed barrel, two stocks (wood and synthetic), Weaver scope...private sale... come on... $900 for the whole deal. Did I do ok?
I don't know that the new cast Springfields are any better. People tell me they're not and they're twice as much.

[rockchucker]

I really don't know, but then I didn't even know there were chicom M14 clones out there. A little bit of googling brings up some mostly favorable comments. Here's a couple:

http://www.fulton-armory.com/M14SReview.html

http://www.logicsouth.com/~lcoble/dir5/m1a-1.txt

I'm also running across a bit of confusion over "cast" and "milled from a casting". Well, I'm no machinist, but I'm gonna guess that no matter how closely your cast is to your final shape, some areas are just going to require milling, so that whole debate seems moot.

Then there's the "a good casting is better than a bad forging" comments. Almost seems like a religious war sometimes, between the "forged" and "cast" camps. Wouldn't a forging still need to be milled in spots too? (Help Zoot!)

Given that Ruger has been making lots of cast firearms, and I haven't heard of any mass failures, I don't think you can point fingers at casting by itself. It's the quality of the workmanship either way -- cast or forged -- that makes the difference. Or, to put it another way, a forging can be defective too.

Thanks for pointing up the PolyTech. I'm still planning on a DCM Garand, though.

[Stolid]

Rather depressing that good one's aren't going to show up on the papers-free market anymore I was just starting to get the funding together to start looking

[The Cabinet Man]

Misfit,

Don't forget about LRB Arms.  They manufacture forged M14 receivers, for a whopping sum of course.  I did see a rifle built around one of their receivers at a gun show a year or so ago and it looked very nice.  That said, I don't own one and cannot speak for their quality.  A Google search will send you to links of people debating the pros/cons of an LRB receiver.

Good luck,

TCM

[UH1]

$900 for the whole deal. Did I do ok?

I don't think you did too bad when you consider Polytechs seem to be drying up.  I think Canada still imports them but not the U.S.

I'm going to send it out to get it headspaced and heat-treated.

This is something you want to do as soon as you can.  I had mine done at Smith Enterprise a few years ago and it had gotten expensive.  Right now Smith's website isn't even listing the option, you have to get a quote.  And I am guessing that heat treatment along with a USGI bolt headspaced is going to run you $600 but it will be money well spent.  I'm not going to bore you with details but the polytech is a good gun once it is heat treated, has a USGI bolt headspaced, has had the chicom wood replaced with synthetic and the stock rear sight replaced with USGI components.  Smith Enterprise has more detailed information about compare USGI parts with chicom parts.  Or at least they used to before they started focusing their work on getting mothballed M14 back into soldiers hands in Iraq.

[badmuggafugga]

UH1's right.  Polytechs are no longer imported to the U.S. due to some Clinton-era restriction I don't remember right now, but they are quite popular in Canada.  And cheap too-- I think the most recent price quote I've seen is $400-500 CDN.

[Thunder]

And cheap too-- I think the most recent price quote I've seen is $400-500 CDN.

Damn.  That's like $25 US.

[NMC_EXP]

I'm also running across a bit of confusion over "cast" and "milled from a casting". Well, I'm no machinist, but I'm gonna guess that no matter how closely your cast is to your final shape, some areas are just going to require milling, so that whole debate seems moot.

True forging involves heating a billet of steel then pounding on it with a powered hammer.  One or a progression of dies are used under the hammer to form the steel to near its final shape and dimensions.  Final machining and heat treatmnet is required to finish the parts.  The claimed advantage of forging is that it creates a grain structure structure which mirrors the form of the finished part.  The M1903, M1 and M14 receivers were all produced this way.

When the commmercial Springfield Armory Inc got into the business they built cast steel receivers. THe claimed disadvantage is to casting is that there is no form following grain, hence the receivers are weaker than forged. 

Springfield and others have made bad batches of receivers which stretched and quickly lost headspace but these are the exceptions.  A lot of Springfield cast receivers have worn out a dozen barrels and are still going strong.

That said I have never seen data regarding the maximum chamber pressure required to blow up a cast vs hammer forged M14 receiver.  I talked to a Marine Corp match armorer who told me the USMCMTU ran test to determine how much pressure a GI M14 receiver would take and IIRC they sheared the lugs off the bolt at 130,000 PSI but the receiver held.

Some domestic M14 receiver manufacturers are machining receivers from steel barstock and claiming these are forged receivers.  The rationale being that steel bar stock goes thru either a hot or cold rolling process when it is being formed and that equals forging.  THat it not the case.  It is not forged, it is not cast.  It is machined from barstock.

[UH1]

GI M14 receiver would take and IIRC they sheared the lugs off the bolt at 130,000 PSI but the receiver held

The polytech on the other hand won't take anywhere near that kind of pressure unless it has been properly heat treated.  My father-in-law has a doctors bill and the back half of a an exploded polytech receiver to prove this.  I have been hounding him to have the piece tested to find the RC hardness factor but I guess he thinks it is a waste of time.  He swears by Smith Enterprise work and keeps shooting the polytechs.  He remembers when Smith's only charged $200 to fit a USGI bolt and for heat treatment.

[Misfit]

From what I've read, I think the Polytechs are forged, just not heat-treated hot enough...but sometimes they are...not consistent. The suggestions I'm reading is to take it to a machine shop and have them test the receiver and bolt hardness and go from there.
The history the guy told me is that he bought it like 15 years ago but he had two others, a beat up one for plinking and a Springfield he used for matches. He only occasionally fired this one. The stamp on the side says " M14S .308" but he had it sale tagged as "M1A1" ...not sure what the difference would be there. This guy is retired Army, so who knows where he got his collection.
I'll keep looking into it. The M14 is an important rifle, so the more we can get tuned up and running, the better.

[Misfit]

Does anybody know of anybody else beside Smith Enterprise that does the heat treat for these receivers?

Smith says on their site to write them for civilian requests to see if they're able to do it and get a quote (they're very busy with the war), I wrote them with a detailed, specific request, oh maybe 3 weeks ago, and have heard nothing in return. I want to get rolling on this, like yesterday. I don't want to play around for months just trying to get a response from them, let alone actual service. None of my local smiths do heat treat, already checked.

[Ian]

Fulton Armory does, I think, but they seem to be really expensive. You might give them a phone call and see if they'll do just a heat treat for you (their advertised services appear to involve replacing most of the parts on a Chinese M14).

[UH1]

I wrote them with a detailed, specific request, oh maybe 3 weeks ago, and have heard nothing in return.

This is no surprise, Smith's work is top notch but their customer service is not.  In fact it pretty much sucks.

Does anybody know of anybody else beside Smith Enterprise that does the heat treat for these receivers?

I sent my Polytech to Smith's but if I were to do it again I would consider finding a local shop to do the heat treat. For instance I found a shop here in town that makes custom leaf springs for cars and trucks.  I bought some raw spring steel from them to make some knife blanks and then brought the knives back when I was done grinding them and they heat treated them for a small additional charge (I think $15).  I don't know if they would touch a receiver but since they know me I suspect this particular shop would.  You could probably find something like this where you live if you look around.  I would check machine and welding shops.  Also make sure you have a way to check the hardness before and after to make sure you are getting what you need. 

Besides the heat treat the other essential thing to do is have a USGI bolt headspaced to the receiver.  Smith's website use to be more informative about comparing Chinese parts with USGI parts and they covered the geometry problems with the Chinese bolt and the reasons it needed to be replaced.  I can't remember if the lugs were wrong or if it was something about the firing pin bridge, maybe it was both.  Point is, replace the bolt with a USGI one and get it headspaced.  I don't know how to headspace the bolt but if you have some go no-go gages you might get lucky and find a USGI bolt that fits with no work required.  I suspect Smith's has a bunch of USGI bolts and swaps them in and out until they get a good fit because I sent one USGI bolt in with my gun and they sent the gun back with a different USGI bolt.  They still may have had to do some fitting but this would limit the amount of grinding on what ever piece requires fitting.

With the receiver heat treated and the bolt replaced you have a shootable gun.  However there are some other parts you might want to change.  The Chicom wood stock is a piece of junk and I replaced mine with a USGI fiberglass stock.  I also replaced the flimsy upper handgaurd with a Fulton Armory one.  I replaced the front and rear sights.  My rear sights would not hold zero, yours might be all right.  The front sight was fine but I replaced it with a national match front sight.  I also replace all of my springs with Wolf springs since the Chinese springs looked suspect (they did work but I doubted their longevity).  Lastly I replaced the hammer, trigger and sear with USGI parts, according to Smith's they are fine but sometimes not as deeply hardened as USGI parts.  Because I was having Fulton's do a national match trigger job I had them replace the hammer trigger and sear as well- I didn't want my national match trigger job wasted on soft parts.  Oh yea, one last thing, I replaced the fake flash hider with a real one.

If you do find a shop to heat treat your parts I would disassemble the gun and have them do all the parts.  As I previously mentioned not all parts are as deeply hardened as they could be.

Hope this helps.

[Lotus Jack]

I heard of a shop in Salt Lake City that does heat treats on receivers. It may take a few days to dig it up. I'll let you know when I find them.

Jack

[rockchucker]

(their advertised services appear to involve replacing most of the parts on a Chinese M14).

Since I don't have a complete parts list, I can't do a quick check on this, but how much would it cost to build a .308 on a DCM Garand receiver, using the M14 gas system? Would it even be possible? Part of my rationale (vs. going with the Chicom M14S) is that heat-treating the receiver involves taking everything off it anyhow. So built in to that price is the time/money to remove/re-install the barrel, headspace it, etc. If you don't mind using the en-bloc clip vs. a detachable magazine, and you're planning on a few mods from stock anyway (e.g. installing Natl. Match sights), seems it might be cheaper. A "Grade A" H&R receiver from the DCM is $200.