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Author Topic: Maintaining web sites  (Read 8076 times)

Roy J. Tellason

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Re: Maintaining web sites
« Reply #45 on: January 01, 2006, 01:20:52 am »

Dont fear the style sheets! ^_^

No fear anywhere in there,  I just wasn't up on those particulars is all...

Quote
check this out
for info on how to use style sheets
http://www.w3schools.com/css/default.asp

The class= and id = are refereing to predefined sizes/styles made in the style sheet.
If I had more time I would go into more detail .

Never seems to be enough time,  but I did make a note of those and will check 'em out the next chance I get.  I've been pretty busy the past couple of days with an update (mostly adding more info) to my "parts pages" (see this link and the pages linked off of it -- it'd been about a month and a half and I collected a whole pile more info,  and wanted to get that in there before the year ended,  for some reason.

Quote
I have a class called main for instance.
.main {
/* margin-top:5px; */
 margin-left: 10px;
 margin-right:5px;
 margin-bottom:5px;
/* text-indent: 15px; */
 font-size: 1em;
 font-family:verdana;
 color: #ffffff;
   }

This tellis it the margin settings and the font size and family. So any thing within a <div class="main"></div> Gets all that predefined style applied to it. You can have all kinds of classes  and IDs

So what's the advantage of using these?  I must be missing something here.  I don't use <div> all that much either,  mostly.

Quote
for php
http://us3.php.net/tut.php
for MySQL
http://dev.mysql.com/tech-resources/articles/ddws/15.html


and for a quick down and dirty on how to use the 2 together
http://www.freewebmasterhelp.com/tutorials/phpmysql/1

That might not be the best one out there but its a quick intro.

I'll have a look...

Quote
And like I said I love to help folks figure out the ins/and outs of coding(well as much as I can anyway im no guru) If there is anything that looks hokey or doesnt make any sense feel free to ask and Ill try to explain it in english-er language.

I don't have a problem getting techy,  or asking questions about points I don't understand.  But my education in pretty much all of this stuff (heavy emphasis on electronics to start with,  morphing into computer stuff later on,  some fiddling around with programming,   and some other areas I won't get into now) are _all_ self-taught,  so there are times when it's a little spotty.
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snokrash257

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Re: Maintaining web sites
« Reply #46 on: January 01, 2006, 07:57:21 am »

I'm self taught, also, Roy, but here's the thoughts on css.
The advantage of using CSS over plain ole HTML is the separation of content and design.  Now not everyone needs this, but it is very useful for many web pages out there.  You can have several different stye sheets for the same page (e.g. one for each different browser--this can be bad, also, if you remember the MSN /Opera debacle from a couple of years ago--one for printing, one for mobile phones, or just for fun ( http://www.csszengarden.com/ ), etc.)
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typhon

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Re: Maintaining web sites
« Reply #47 on: January 01, 2006, 02:18:42 pm »

Quote from: Roy J. Tellason date=1136100052
No fear anywhere in there,  I just wasn't up on those particulars is all...

I was just messing with ya. Im kinda goofy that way. Normally my blue hair tips people off but this is the cyberworld and I cant seem to get my profile to update...
Quote from: Roy J. Tellason date=1136100052
Never seems to be enough time,  but I did make a note of those and will check 'em out the next chance I get.  I've been pretty busy the past couple of days with an update (mostly adding more info) to my "parts pages" (see this link and the pages linked off of it -- it'd been about a month and a half and I collected a whole pile more info,  and wanted to get that in there before the year ended,  for some reason.
There is never enough time ever......
Are you doing that all in plain ole HTML? I took a look and that is a ton of info to have to deal with, are you using any sort of content management software? If not I may be able to hook you up. That is if you would be interested. I could imagine having to deal with all that time after time after time when I need to edit stuff. Ive gone soft at gotten used to writing code via php and SQL.

Quote from: Roy J. Tellason  date=1136100052
So what's the advantage of using these?
Well the main advantage is if you have a predefined 'style' for your text and then you want to cahnge colors or font size etc. you would go to your style sheet and find the definition you want to change. and change the color from red to green for example. Instead of having to open everyone of your HTML pages and make adjustments to each and every place that you told it to make the color red. Does that make any sense?

  I must be missing something here.  I don't use <div> all that much either,  mostly.
Well div is only one way there are numerous definitions that you can create. You can even give some of the standard HTML tags a definition in the style sheet. Say for instance you have 2 different styles of paragreaphs that you want to use for your site. Lets say one is the main style that you want all of your text to look like, then we have the '/fine print' so would define <p> tags
p.main {
font-size:16px;
color:#000000;
}
p.fine {
font-size:8px;
color:#555555;
}
then in your HTML file you would use them like
<p class="main">your main text goes in here</p>
<p class="fine">your fine print goes in here</p>
You can define your <hr> as an image

hr {
background:url('images/hrimage.gif');
}
then when ever you put the <hr> tag in your page it would display the mige you specified. and again it makes it easier to make adjustment site wide so if you wanted to change the image you used you would only need to edit your stylesheet instead of hunting through every single HTML file to make the chages.

Quote from: Roy J. Tellason date=1136100052
I don't have a problem getting techy,  or asking questions about points I don't understand.  But my education in pretty much all of this stuff (heavy emphasis on electronics to start with,  morphing into computer stuff later on,  some fiddling around with programming,   and some other areas I won't get into now) are _all_ self-taught,  so there are times when it's a little spotty.
Well it wasnt so much the techie I was meaning just sometimes I dont speak/type all that clearly. I have a background in electronics as well (3 hrs from a degree for the past 8 yrs. Itll never happen) But  I also had a background in computers that is almost completely self taught. I started when I was in 5th grade in 82 with a C=64 and started to prgram in basic. But I digress. From looking at your site you arent overly concerned with flashy bells nad whistles just plain ole data/info and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. And as far as teh div/table debate goes when your data is tabular such as your parts page, there is no reason to not use a table and making that layout in divs could be a nightmare.  Just something to throw out there. But if you arent using some sort of content management tool I would suggest you at least look into it. If your host offers php/sql I could help set that up so that all you had to do was just enter the data/content and the rest would be taken care of automatically.
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Roy J. Tellason

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Re: Maintaining web sites
« Reply #48 on: January 01, 2006, 10:55:43 pm »

Quote from: Roy J. Tellason date=1136100052
Never seems to be enough time,  but I did make a note of those and will check 'em out the next chance I get.  I've been pretty busy the past couple of days with an update (mostly adding more info) to my "parts pages" (see this link and the pages linked off of it -- it'd been about a month and a half and I collected a whole pile more info,  and wanted to get that in there before the year ended,  for some reason.
There is never enough time ever......
Are you doing that all in plain ole HTML?

Yep.  It's slightly trimmed from the version I serve up locally on the LAN here,  which also includes an Apache graphic at the bottom of each page.  :-)

Quote
I took a look and that is a ton of info to have to deal with, are you using any sort of content management software?

I'm using a text editor.  :-)

Quote
If not I may be able to hook you up. That is if you would be interested. I could imagine having to deal with all that time after time after time when I need to edit stuff. Ive gone soft at gotten used to writing code via php and SQL.

I started out with _one_ big transistor chart,  but it got too unwieldy,  and wasn't something I'd want to expect folks to download,  particularly over a dialup connection (what I've got).  So I split it up that way.  I'm not too sure how a content-management system of some sort would work for me,  though I have nothing against the idea of checking it out.  The thing that got me started with HTML was that when I'd installed Slackware in the first place (1999) there were some program docs that came that way, and so I started some small pages to try and tie them together and link to them easier.  Much of that isn't working right any more because it seems that with each upgrade some of the HOWTOs go away and some of the new ones have different names,  but I still have a whole mess of stuff that I've snagged off the 'net plugged into a local HTML tree,  just for ease of access.  It's gotten a LOT easier since I started using Firefox,  which saves all the bits that you need,  images and whatnot,  as compared to before when I was using Konqueror.  But I now have MUCH more of that stuff sitting in my download tree waiting for me to plug it into the setup than I have in the setup,  and there never seems to be time to deal with that,  either.

Putting the stuff online was more a matter of "some of you may find this information useful",  basically what I said in the several posts that I made yesterday announcing the updating of the pages after I'd gotten them uploaded.  And indeed some folks seem to find it useful.  I had no idea until I put the hit counters in there,  and now I seem to get roughly 400 hits a week,  consistently,  and have a few folks listing a link to the pages.

Quote
Quote from: Roy J. Tellason  date=1136100052
So what's the advantage of using these?
Well the main advantage is if you have a predefined 'style' for your text and then you want to cahnge colors or font size etc. you would go to your style sheet and find the definition you want to change. and change the color from red to green for example. Instead of having to open everyone of your HTML pages and make adjustments to each and every place that you told it to make the color red. Does that make any sense?

Sure,  but for the little I use much of that sort of thing it's not that big a deal to me to change stuff.  There's one line in each file that talks about link colors and one other area where I use colors besides the defaults, all of them reading

<TR BGCOLOR="CCCCFF">

And if I ever needed to change those it's only in maybe half a dozen files or so -- I could use sed to do that job easily enough.  Other than that I don't screw around much with font sizes,  styles,  colors for things,  stuff like that,  and in fact have been known to take that sort of thing out for a lot of stuff that I've downloaded copies of,  to simplify it.  Some of _those_ files see a size reduction of as much as 80% once I get all the crap out,  but even 50% isn't all that uncommon,  particularly since I also strip out a lot of comments,  javascript,  and m$-specific nonsense.

Quote
I must be missing something here.  I don't use <div> all that much either,  mostly.
Well div is only one way there are numerous definitions that you can create. You can even give some of the standard HTML tags a definition in the style sheet. Say for instance you have 2 different styles of paragreaphs that you want to use for your site. Lets say one is the main style that you want all of your text to look like, then we have the '/fine print' so would define <p> tags
p.main {
font-size:16px;
color:#000000;
}
p.fine {
font-size:8px;
color:#555555;
}
then in your HTML file you would use them like
<p class="main">your main text goes in here</p>
<p class="fine">your fine print goes in here</p>

Those sizes actually specified in pixels?  That's something I've bumped into a few times,  which is also something I generally try to avoid,  because it may end up looking good at one resolution (the one the author uses :-) and lousy at others.  The whole point of the use of HTML and a browser in the first place is that it should look equally good on a variety of setups,  different browsers,  and different screen resolutions,  and if it doesn't the page author is doing something wrong.

Quote
You can define your <hr> as an image

hr {
background:url('images/hrimage.gif');
}
then when ever you put the <hr> tag in your page it would display the mige you specified. and again it makes it easier to make adjustment site wide so if you wanted to change the image you used you would only need to edit your stylesheet instead of hunting through every single HTML file to make the chages.

I've seen a few places that do that,  too,  either use something like a line with a lot of colors in it or an image that just happens to be long and narrow,  and I don't see much point to that either.  I hardly ever use the width specification that goes with that anyhow.  But when I do it's always a percentage and not some number of pixels.

Quote
Quote from: Roy J. Tellason date=1136100052
I don't have a problem getting techy,  or asking questions about points I don't understand.  But my education in pretty much all of this stuff (heavy emphasis on electronics to start with,  morphing into computer stuff later on,  some fiddling around with programming,   and some other areas I won't get into now) are _all_ self-taught,  so there are times when it's a little spotty.
Well it wasnt so much the techie I was meaning just sometimes I dont speak/type all that clearly.

Oh.  Well,  if there was something I didn't understand I'd ask about it.  Dunno about some other folks...

Quote
I have a background in electronics as well (3 hrs from a degree for the past 8 yrs. Itll never happen) But  I also had a background in computers that is almost completely self taught. I started when I was in 5th grade in 82 with a C=64 and started to prgram in basic.

Side note:  I'm looking for c64s (and 128s) to scrap,  I have people that are interested in certain chips...

Quote
But I digress. From looking at your site you arent overly concerned with flashy bells nad whistles just plain ole data/info and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

That about sums it up pretty accurately.  Though this may change if there's ever any prospect of employment doing that sort of thing,  if I can find somebody that doesn't insist that I have to do things in a m$ environment.  :-)

Quote
And as far as teh div/table debate goes when your data is tabular such as your parts page, there is no reason to not use a table and making that layout in divs could be a nightmare.  Just something to throw out there. But if you arent using some sort of content management tool I would suggest you at least look into it. If your host offers php/sql I could help set that up so that all you had to do was just enter the data/content and the rest would be taken care of automatically.

I don't think they do,  nor scripts or much else,  it's just the 5MB or so (5120KB is what they said) that I get that comes along with having a dialup account with those folks. I'm not overly concerned about it at this point,  since even with my stuff on there (and a few other odd files that I've uploaded and linked to here and there) I'm only using about half that.  I wouldn't mind seeing what could be done with some of those tools,  though,  locally.
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typhon

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Re: Maintaining web sites
« Reply #49 on: January 02, 2006, 01:22:24 pm »

Welll I checked out on of the first pages Transistors with 2N numbers. there are 1662 rows on that page alone. Having to track through all those pages and update/edit would make me kooky. A CMS would allow you just enter the data, and not have to deal with any of the code. And with as many entries as you have I would think this would be very beneficial. I dont know if your host offers PHP but that would be the way to go. Im not even suggestiong that you download/purchase and CMS you can build one from scratch fairly painlesslesly. I wrote my own, and if I can anyone can. But that would require that your host offers PHP and if it had SQL would  be a plus. I may eve nbe able to privde you with a mock up in the next few days. I need inspiration to get off my butt and write some code anyway.

The bit about triming out the font tags to save space. style sheets does the dame thing essentially. Since all of 'meat' of the styl information is stored in a seperate file.

I dont have time to give a more detailed response, that was a mouthful, Ill get back to it latter today. I gotta do some work bleh.
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typhon

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Re: Maintaining web sites
« Reply #50 on: January 02, 2006, 11:10:07 pm »

I think I may have come up with a decent answer as to why you might consider css. IT actually saved quite a bit of space.
This was a pretty cool exercise for me. I have never really had a chance to check out anything on quite a scale. But I did some playing around and came up with this info. I was pretty impressed with the results. I dont know how much of a difference it makes on load time Im on Road Runner it seems fairly quick. But it could be adjusted so that you could have the option of choosing how many results displayed per page or whatever. Anyway heres the results of my 'test'.

My total output when viewing source
http://www.golfandgamesmemphis.com/dev/parts.php
6694 lines of code

Your total output when viewing source.
http://yourpage.blazenet.net/rtellason/transistors-2n.html
18736 lines of code


My breakdown

Css Style sheet
240 lines
Including comments. But all of this was already in existance so it was only modified to match your colors (4 lines edited. Most of this stylesheet is not even use and ould be trashed. It was just something I had available).

config file
13 lines
including meta data non relavant but still in there This connects to the database and sets some of the logic up for the site.

php page - parts.php
65 lines
Over half of which were rehashed from my 'basic php' file I keep for a starting point. This was the only  file I really had to work in to make this page happen.

total
318
out of the total 6694 when rendered

I had no idea the difference would be that large. And im not trying to change your mind about anything. The only main difference being is that now all you have to do is enter/edit the data and thats it. And dont get me wrong, there are some things missing like links and some other things this was just a rough slap it together. But the code is in place(for the most part all I would have to do at this point is copy and paste your 13 other pages into a SQL database. Just the data none of the html Not only that but it could be sortable by clicking on the column name  just somethin to chew on
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Roy J. Tellason

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Re: Maintaining web sites
« Reply #51 on: January 03, 2006, 12:22:38 am »

Welll I checked out on of the first pages Transistors with 2N numbers. there are 1662 rows on that page alone. Having to track through all those pages and update/edit would make me kooky. A CMS would allow you just enter the data, and not have to deal with any of the code. And with as many entries as you have I would think this would be very beneficial. I dont know if your host offers PHP but that would be the way to go. Im not even suggestiong that you download/purchase and CMS you can build one from scratch fairly painlesslesly. I wrote my own, and if I can anyone can. But that would require that your host offers PHP and if it had SQL would  be a plus. I may eve nbe able to privde you with a mock up in the next few days. I need inspiration to get off my butt and write some code anyway.

The bit about triming out the font tags to save space. style sheets does the dame thing essentially. Since all of 'meat' of the styl information is stored in a seperate file.

I dont have time to give a more detailed response, that was a mouthful, Ill get back to it latter today. I gotta do some work bleh.

Unfortunately that being just your basic dialup account they don't offer anything of the sort.  I can't even do simple CGI scripts.  Which doesn't mean that I wouldn't find such stuff useful,  even if I had to generate the pages locally and upload them,  among other reasons...
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Roy J. Tellason

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Re: Maintaining web sites
« Reply #52 on: January 03, 2006, 12:26:55 am »

I think I may have come up with a decent answer as to why you might consider css. IT actually saved quite a bit of space.
This was a pretty cool exercise for me. I have never really had a chance to check out anything on quite a scale. But I did some playing around and came up with this info. I was pretty impressed with the results. I dont know how much of a difference it makes on load time Im on Road Runner it seems fairly quick. But it could be adjusted so that you could have the option of choosing how many results displayed per page or whatever. Anyway heres the results of my 'test'.

My total output when viewing source
http://www.golfandgamesmemphis.com/dev/parts.php
6694 lines of code

Your total output when viewing source.
http://yourpage.blazenet.net/rtellason/transistors-2n.html
18736 lines of code


My breakdown

Css Style sheet
240 lines
Including comments. But all of this was already in existance so it was only modified to match your colors (4 lines edited. Most of this stylesheet is not even use and ould be trashed. It was just something I had available).

config file
13 lines
including meta data non relavant but still in there This connects to the database and sets some of the logic up for the site.

php page - parts.php
65 lines
Over half of which were rehashed from my 'basic php' file I keep for a starting point. This was the only  file I really had to work in to make this page happen.

total
318
out of the total 6694 when rendered

I had no idea the difference would be that large. And im not trying to change your mind about anything. The only main difference being is that now all you have to do is enter/edit the data and thats it. And dont get me wrong, there are some things missing like links and some other things this was just a rough slap it together. But the code is in place(for the most part all I would have to do at this point is copy and paste your 13 other pages into a SQL database. Just the data none of the html Not only that but it could be sortable by clicking on the column name  just somethin to chew on

Changing what gets displayed on a page according to a user's preferences would be nice.  I've had some thought of adding a "manufacturer" column to the transistor listings,  for example,  but it's right on the edge of needing horizontal scrolling now (sometimes I gotta reduce my font size a notch or two to prevent that),  and that's pretty bad,  considering that I started those charts on a machine where the best I could do was 800x600.

Sorting on any given column is another big plus -- I could see where that would come in *real* handy if you were trying to select a part,  either from the whole list or from some subset,  particularly.

I guess I'm gonna have to look into that stuff some.  I got sidetracked today looking at multivalent,  which in turn required java,  so I had to download and install that...

Always something.    :-)
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typhon

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Re: Maintaining web sites
« Reply #53 on: January 03, 2006, 02:08:51 am »

By the way i was just bored and had never had a reason to compore notes if you will with a big page like that. I would be more than happy to help set that up and get it running. I have most of it written already actually. It would just take a few days to do the mods to get it set up for your particular needs. Oh and check it out. If your site was using style sheets this would have been aplied site wide by only changing a couple of lines in one file. Tell me if the text is too small. By the way is it slower or faster or can you even tell? I just thought i would give it a touch of character.

http://golfandgamesmemphis.com/dev/parts.php
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Roy J. Tellason

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Re: Maintaining web sites
« Reply #54 on: January 04, 2006, 02:20:36 am »

By the way i was just bored and had never had a reason to compore notes if you will with a big page like that. I would be more than happy to help set that up and get it running.

I really need to find the time to get into this stuff...   :-)

Quote
I have most of it written already actually. It would just take a few days to do the mods to get it set up for your particular needs. Oh and check it out. If your site was using style sheets this would have been aplied site wide by only changing a couple of lines in one file. Tell me if the text is too small.

Text seemed to be fine,  though I don't do real well with black backgrounds -- and since I saw a BGCOLOR="FFFFFF" line in there when I hit view source,  is that something that the stylesheet did?

Quote
By the way is it slower or faster or can you even tell?

It took a little while to load,  but then it takes a little while to load over the 10mbps LAN here.  No easy way for me to tell over dialup.

Quote
I just thought i would give it a touch of character.

http://golfandgamesmemphis.com/dev/parts.php

Interesting...
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typhon

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Re: Maintaining web sites
« Reply #55 on: January 04, 2006, 12:46:12 pm »

Yeah the <body bgcolor=ffffff> was accidentally left in there from my 'default' html page. I use it for a starting point. Thanks for reminding me I needed to take that out since I have the bg defined in the style sheet.

And since you dont like black backgrounds I made some changes. I just had always heard that a dark background with light text is easier on hte eyes than a light background with dark text. but hey here is the style sheet that is used for that page
Code: [Select]
/* Need to define color families. */
th {
 font-size: .9em;
 font-family:serif;
 font-weight:bold;
 color: #3366cc;
}
td {
font-size: .6em;
 font-family:verdana;
 color: #000000;
}
ul.main {
 margin-left:15px;
 /* margin-right:10px; */
 list-style-type:circle;
 font-size:.8em;
 font-family:verdana;
 color:#000000;
}
.hdr{
font-size:1.4em;
 font-family:verdana;
 /* text-decoration:underline; */
/* background: #000000; */
 color: #3366cc;
}
.main {
/* margin-top:5px;
 margin-left: 10px;
 margin-right:5px;
 margin-bottom:5px;
 text-indent: 15px; */
 font-size: .8em;
 font-family:verdana;
 color: #000000;
}
body {
/* margin:45; */
 background: #F9EEDC /* url('images/bkgrnd.jpg') no-repeat */;
}


There is a style assigned to the th td and to the ul tags. Those are the first 3 areas. Then I made a hdr style which is used instead of the <h1> tags. it would be <p class="hdr"> The reason for this is that I read somewhere that using the <h1> tags for emphisis or just to make the text larger was 'wrong' and that <h1> were really meant for use in outlines. I dont know how much of a difference it really makes since <h*> does do the job, just something I picked up. Then I defined the main content style. this is where you see
<div class="main"> And that covers anything within the <div></div> tag. Then the body tag gets the background color. And heres what makes it nice. if you add the line of code
<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="style.css">
inbetween the <head></head> tags on every page, when you make a change to the css file it changes them site wide. 1 change changes every page.  Now I know that styles/colors/frufru is not that big of a deal especially for a site that is mostly just parts and part numbers. But if you are getting over 400 hits a week, you could at least let them look at something a little less bland, no?

Oh and to see the color changes http://www.golfandgamesmemphis.com/dev/parts.php
« Last Edit: January 04, 2006, 12:49:51 pm by typhon »
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