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Author Topic: Maintaining web sites  (Read 8071 times)

purple kitty

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Re: Maintaining web sites
« Reply #30 on: November 10, 2005, 07:06:03 pm »

err... validate html? I do it the same way I did it 7 years ago when I started playing with html... open up notepad.... start typing.... and when I'm done I open it in different browsers to make sure it looks like what I want it to look like. I like my stuff to be really simple... and I love tables... tables are my friend.. I never could get into using those pagemaker programs. it always came out looking retarded for me.
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GigaBuist

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Re: Maintaining web sites
« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2005, 09:43:16 pm »

Quote
As far as Vi vs EMacs.  Nano all the way babeeee!!!!! For a CLI text editor, fast, clean, easy to use.  If I want more text editying power, I use OO.org.
I worked with a SysAdmin (using the term loosely) that used pico/nano for viewing log files.

He'd gripe about how long it took to get to the end of the file, holding the page-down key.  He never did care much for less/more/tail it seems.

Simply put:  pico/nano are meant for people that need to edit text files.  emacs/vim are meant for people that make their living off editing text files (and source code).

I don't have much to add, as far as tool lists, but I will say that I've done a fair amount of HTML work back in the day via both emacs and vim.  Using HTML Tidy from the command line is something you should proabably learn.  Learn that then make it a macro in emacs or vim and you'll be right at home.  Learn a few more commands and you can make it check our whole website at once:

find ./ -name "*.html" | xargs -i"{}" htmltidy <insert options here> {}

Booyah, something like that'll alert you to any problems anywhere.

One bonus of knowing how to do all your work on the command line (or most of it) is that you can do it from anywhere in the world.  Just nab a copy of 'putty' on a public machine and you can SSH into your Unix machines and do your business.  Since I run Mac OS X at home these days I can ssh into work, log into my Linux machine, export the display to my local box, punch a hole through the firewall, and fire up a browser that's actually ON the LAN to test my work.  Beauty... used to do it all the time while working a web development job in college.  Laptop was too underpowered to run everything, so I ran Netscape of SGI boxes in the lab that appeared my screen.

Enough with the nostalgia though.

purple kitty said:
Quote
I like my stuff to be really simple... and I love tables... tables are my friend..
Noooo.. tables are BAD these days.  They were just a horrid, horrid hack that let you dictate your design in rather stringent manners.  Now that CSS is being fairly well supported by browsers you should really be looking at more "flowing" tags like divs and spans for content mangement, using CSS to dictate their apperance.  Seriously.  Tables were intended to present a table of data, not to dictate layout. Abuse of them started to die out around 2001-2002 IIRC and when the .Net framework came out you could see that there was a push to move toward divs and CSS.  People have GOT to stop using table's for layout.. it's not kosher, and it will really wreak havoc on you when it comes to people using large fonts, or people using anything but a computer to view your website.
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rockchucker

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Re: Maintaining web sites
« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2005, 10:15:43 pm »

purple kitty said:
Quote
I like my stuff to be really simple... and I love tables... tables are my friend..
Noooo.. tables are BAD these days.  They were just a horrid, horrid hack that let you dictate your design in rather stringent manners.  Now that CSS is being fairly well supported by browsers you should really be looking at more "flowing" tags like divs and spans for content mangement, using CSS to dictate their apperance.  Seriously.  Tables were intended to present a table of data, not to dictate layout. Abuse of them started to die out around 2001-2002 IIRC and when the .Net framework came out you could see that there was a push to move toward divs and CSS.  People have GOT to stop using table's for layout.. it's not kosher, and it will really wreak havoc on you when it comes to people using large fonts, or people using anything but a computer to view your website.

Bletch.

Yeah, I've tried to be all modern and stuph with CSS. You know what? It still sucks. Want your website to look mostly the same across all browsers? How 'bout older versions of Netscape, or even not-so-very-old versions of Gecko? Or, AFAICT, almost any version of IE? I've looked at some of the godawful hacks that CSS geeks stick in their stylesheets to "force" various browsers to render DIVs properly. One of my favourites was one which exploited a Mozilla (gecko engine) bug in order to fix a display problem in IE. Don't ask me to even try to recall the specifics on that, because my brain just throws out stuff such as that, much as my intestinal tract dispenses with similar waste.

The worst thing about CSS is that it's sometimes very difficult to tell whether it's my code, or a browser bug. Hey, when 3 browsers all render it differently, who's to say? I suppose there's some folks who are CSS gurus who can. But when you're in the "learn by doing" mode, it's close to impossible.

CSS is also, regrettably, a technology which has given rise to plenty of annoyances, just like JavaScript. Hurrah! A pox on whomever it was that thought using a hover attribute to unhide a drop-down menu was a good thing. Yeah, just what I needed -- something I didn't want to look at obscuring what I was looking at, just because I moved my mouse pointer out of the way of what I was looking at. Yup, that there's some real progress all right. I also really like the way many web authors use CSS to completely obscure the presence of hyperlinks on their pages, by making them look just like the default treatment for some other tag. Must be getting their queues from the same folks who thought that the <underline> tag was a good idea, or worse yet, <blink>.
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Roy J. Tellason

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Re: Maintaining web sites
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2005, 02:17:51 am »

err... validate html? I do it the same way I did it 7 years ago when I started playing with html... open up notepad.... start typing.... and when I'm done I open it in different browsers to make sure it looks like what I want it to look like. I like my stuff to be really simple... and I love tables... tables are my friend.. I never could get into using those pagemaker programs. it always came out looking retarded for me.

You like tables?  Check out this page...

It's a work in progress,  but I'm pretty pleased with the way it came out so far.  No nesting there,  that's _one_ table.
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Bill St. Clair

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Re: Maintaining web sites
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2005, 06:07:47 am »


You like tables?  Check out this page...

It's a work in progress,  but I'm pretty pleased with the way it came out so far.  No nesting there,  that's _one_ table.


Yep. Tables have their place, and I still have an easier time working up a layout from scratch with tables. For CSS layout, I have to use somebody else's template. I've got big tables on my Arms Manufacturers & Distributors and Mail-Order Ammunition Distributors pages.
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irv

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Re: Maintaining web sites
« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2005, 01:23:47 pm »


Bletch.

Yeah, I've tried to be all modern and stuph with CSS. You know what? It still sucks. Want your website to look mostly the same across all browsers?


But that's exactly the point - if you want to be 'polite' and perhaps make more sales on the
internet, you do not want your page to appear 'the same acroll all browsers".

Some people can't see your page well, they want the information that's there without the distractions.
Some people can't see your page at all, but can only  hear it.
Trust me, they don't want to try to filter your message out of the background noise of table markup.

Irv



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typhon

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Re: Maintaining web sites
« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2005, 03:37:47 pm »

Personally, I like a little mix of both tables and css. I only use on table with one row and one column. It holds all my css divs together. I use ems for font and image sizing instead of pixels. I use %s for div sizing and it all seems to scale failry well  for most res/size monitors.And it looks ok in any browser. I would give a link but im a new guy here and am just butting in a conversation.  Just my 2 cents

Oh yeah hi im typhon
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rockchucker

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Re: Maintaining web sites
« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2005, 08:28:00 pm »


Bletch.

Yeah, I've tried to be all modern and stuph with CSS. You know what? It still sucks. Want your website to look mostly the same across all browsers?


But that's exactly the point - if you want to be 'polite' and perhaps make more sales on the
internet, you do not want your page to appear 'the same acroll all browsers".

Some people can't see your page well, they want the information that's there without the distractions.
Some people can't see your page at all, but can only  hear it.
Trust me, they don't want to try to filter your message out of the background noise of table markup.

Uh, Irv, how is it that web page audio readers for the blind fare better trying to deal with a boatload of <div class="2039rjoiwefjwfjwf"> tags, <span class="someotherclass">, etc., than well-ordered table tags? Believe me, I've looked at plenty of HTML source, and a wholly CSS based layout is every bit as crufty, many even more so, than a simple table layout.

Note also that I said "mostly the same". But you've got me curious. What is the rationale and extent to which you think a web page should not look the same across all browsers? Personally, I think it'd be (hallelujah) great if all modern browser would get their rendering bugs fixed, so that it'd be less of a hassle to write HTML/CSS that works everywhere.

And what distractions are you referring to?
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rockchucker

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Re: Maintaining web sites
« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2005, 08:35:02 pm »

I would give a link but im a new guy here and am just butting in a conversation.  Just my 2 cents

Hey, don't let that stop you. C'mon, spill the beans URL.
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typhon

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Re: Maintaining web sites
« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2005, 09:31:59 pm »

I would give a link but im a new guy here and am just butting in a conversation.  Just my 2 cents

Hey, don't let that stop you. C'mon, spill the beans URL.

Ok but dont say you werent warned. Its a no frills family entertainment centers site. Fairy straightforward and I still need to tighten it up, but I built a small very limited php/sql CMS so that they could maintain thier own site and not bother me with minor changes.
http://www.golfandgamesmemphis.com/

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Roy J. Tellason

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Re: Maintaining web sites
« Reply #40 on: December 30, 2005, 12:38:28 am »

I would give a link but im a new guy here and am just butting in a conversation.  Just my 2 cents

Hey, don't let that stop you. C'mon, spill the beans URL.

Ok but dont say you werent warned. Its a no frills family entertainment centers site. Fairy straightforward and I still need to tighten it up, but I built a small very limited php/sql CMS so that they could maintain thier own site and not bother me with minor changes.
http://www.golfandgamesmemphis.com/



I'll say this -- it sure loaded quick!  Except for the pic,  which came in last.  I did a "view source" and there's stuff in there I'm not real clear on,  apparently there are some gaps in my understanding of HTML.  No surprise there,  I guess.  I should probably do something about that one of these days...
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Roy J. Tellason

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Re: Maintaining web sites
« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2005, 12:40:02 am »

Uh, Irv, how is it that web page audio readers for the blind fare better trying to deal with a boatload of <div class="2039rjoiwefjwfjwf"> tags, <span class="someotherclass">, etc., than well-ordered table tags?

Does software that those folks use _not_ ignore the stuff between the angle brackets?
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typhon

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Re: Maintaining web sites
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2005, 10:27:10 am »

I'll say this -- it sure loaded quick!  Except for the pic,  which came in last.  I did a "view source" and there's stuff in there I'm not real clear on,  apparently there are some gaps in my understanding of HTML.  No surprise there,  I guess.  I should probably do something about that one of these days...

What parts are that? Id be happy to explain anything I got going on with my site. Its actually done with php and MySQL database queries, it just spits out HTML. If there is anything I can clear up I would be happy to. Just let me knowl
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Roy J. Tellason

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Re: Maintaining web sites
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2005, 02:32:44 am »

I'll say this -- it sure loaded quick!  Except for the pic,  which came in last.  I did a "view source" and there's stuff in there I'm not real clear on,  apparently there are some gaps in my understanding of HTML.  No surprise there,  I guess.  I should probably do something about that one of these days...

What parts are that? Id be happy to explain anything I got going on with my site. Its actually done with php and MySQL database queries, it just spits out HTML. If there is anything I can clear up I would be happy to. Just let me knowl

The whole stylesheet thing,  basically.  All that "class=" stuff.  And php as well as mysql are also things I should probably get a handle on one of these days,  too...
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typhon

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Re: Maintaining web sites
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2005, 09:36:43 am »

Dont fear the style sheets! ^_^ check this out
for info on how to use style sheets
http://www.w3schools.com/css/default.asp

The class= and id = are refereing to predefined sizes/styles made in the style sheet.
If I had more time I would go into more detail .

I have a class called main for instance.
.main {
/* margin-top:5px; */
 margin-left: 10px;
 margin-right:5px;
 margin-bottom:5px;
/* text-indent: 15px; */
 font-size: 1em;
 font-family:verdana;
 color: #ffffff;
   }

This tellis it the margin settings and the font size and family. So any thing within a <div class="main"></div> Gets all that predefined style applied to it. You can have all kinds of classes  and IDs

for php
http://us3.php.net/tut.php
for MySQL
http://dev.mysql.com/tech-resources/articles/ddws/15.html


and for a quick down and dirty on how to use the 2 together
http://www.freewebmasterhelp.com/tutorials/phpmysql/1

That might not be the best one out there but its a quick intro. 

And like I said I love to help folks figure out the ins/and outs of coding(well as much as I can anyway im no guru) If there is anything that looks hokey or doesnt make any sense feel free to ask and Ill try to explain it in english-er language.


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