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Author Topic: Paying Taxes  (Read 36301 times)

Silver

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Paying Taxes
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2005, 02:50:49 pm »

nevermind
« Last Edit: May 20, 2005, 06:40:41 am by Silver »
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penguinsscareme

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« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2005, 07:31:36 pm »

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also common are making toll roads out of already built and paid for roads
Like the Mass Pike which was built in the '50's and was only supposed to be a toll road until it was paid for...only it's still a toll road, and in fact the tolls have increased over the years.
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O Lord,
Thine Ocean is so great,
And my boat is so small.

Sportos, motorheads, dweebies, wastoids...they think he's a righteous dude.

The utter waste of our $2,000,000,000 a day military-industrial machine was never demonstrated more vividly than on 9/11.

You do what works.

Misfit

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« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2005, 10:17:09 pm »

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I know that some who choose "poverty" are actually affluent in fact, but in poverty on paper. That's ideal.
I noticed that this is in the Mole topic. My discussion above is more appropriate for the money and taxation topic. This discussion would be more appropriate, I think, in the Ghost topic. Mole v IRS would more aptly be regarding those who worked within the IRS or state taxing departments to sab  O  tage their collection efforts. :ph34r:  Therefore, most likely, very little discussion would go on in this area. :P
In considering what an Agitator, a Ghost and a Mole would do at tax time...An Agitator would tell the IRS why they don't have to pay, a Ghost wouldn't file and a Mole would file, but creatively....

The Mole Forum says "How to stay sane and effective while remaining within the system." Filing taxes is remaining in the system. I didn't see anything describing it as becoming a covert agent inside the IRS.


As Claire mentioned, my financial circumstances haven't been voluntary, just unfortunate as of late. We only brought in an income in the last five months of 2004. We did have a good amount of savings that we tapped into last year, but that wasn't income. I don't think we were living poor, just a little more frugal than most people. I imagine we'll do better this year...hopefully.
 

debeez

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« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2005, 08:59:22 am »

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a Ghost wouldn't file and a Mole would file, but creatively....

And boy oh boy, do I try to be creative.  Anything to save a dollar here, there or anywhere.  Charitable donations help big time on our tax returns...

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I don't think we were living poor, just a little more frugal than most people.

It's all about getting by, and living as best you can on what you have.
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Christine
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sagas4

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Paying Taxes
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2005, 11:30:09 am »

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Well,  I own and run a small business, and happen to know the answers to those questions. 

This is a small professional services business.  The numbers will be different for manufacturing or other kinds of business.

The government collects, either directly or via mandated purchases of things like pension bonds or CPA time, about 67% of all revenues coming into the firm.  I've been keeping track for 5 years now, in good years and lean ones, and this fraction is about constant.  The marginal take, the cut on the last dollar, is closer to 75%.

Once the business is set up and running, with no intentional violations or provocations of the government, about 30% of the firm's manpower is devoted to tending to government stuff.  That's on top of the 67% cash take.

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How many CPAs and lawyers could this country do without if they weren't needed as prohpylactics against government?
Um, let me count here... All of them, I think.

Peace,

Silver
Silver,

Let's see here. Are you saying you are Uncompensated, Non-Bonded, Not Under Oath, and 67% of the cash is public funds upon which you spend 30% of your time dealing with?

Who's responsibility is it to Lay and COLLECT Taxes anyway? (If one could even begin to believe that an unsigned, undelivered, unwitnessed document, written 200 years ago by a bunch of men that are long dead can have any binding effect upon those now living today anyway without the threat of a firearm pointed at your head).  

Well if they want us to do it we should start sending them a bill for compensation for our time spent doing their work and I think that at a rate of 250.00 FRN's per hour for each man or woman doing their "collection" work for them billed directly to the jokers that call themselve congress would only be fair.  :P

P.S. If they are taking 67% and you spend 30% of your time would that mean that over 97% of your resources are spent on non-productive activities? And when the Marginal rate is 75% that you are operating a -5% resource level.  :blink:

(I know you can't really add the cash and personnel percentages together like that and get a good number but It does illustrate the problem eh?)
« Last Edit: April 05, 2005, 11:38:14 am by sagas4 »
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Silver

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Paying Taxes
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2005, 06:36:39 pm »

nevermind
« Last Edit: May 20, 2005, 06:41:19 am by Silver »
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ZooT_aLLures

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Paying Taxes
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2005, 11:46:01 pm »

Silver,

If things are really that rough then why bother?
 
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Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed.

We all have some scar tissue that never lets us completely forget the intent of the adventure.

Bill St. Clair

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Paying Taxes
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2005, 01:02:45 pm »

Ugh. I just filled out New York State and Fedgov tax forms. Computed the numbers quite a while back in Excel, but it's more real written on paper with a pen. Still left to do: make copies, write check to fedgoons, curse, apply postage, mail.

I feel like shooting something. Tomorrow for sure...
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"The state can only survive as long as a majority is programmed to believe that theft isn't wrong if it's called taxation or asset forfeiture or eminent domain, that assault and kidnapping isn't wrong if it's called arrest, that mass murder isn't wrong if it's called war." -- Bill St. Clair

"Separation of Earth and state!" -- Bill St. Clair

Roy J. Tellason

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Paying Taxes
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2005, 04:49:42 pm »

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Ugh. I just filled out New York State and Fedgov tax forms. Computed the numbers quite a while back in Excel, but it's more real written on paper with a pen. Still left to do: make copies, write check to fedgoons, curse, apply postage, mail.

I feel like shooting something. Tomorrow for sure...
Funny how tax forms can make you feel that way...

Hey,  if wherever they have those forms has a bunch of extra ones afterwards,  they might make good targets?  :-)
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woodtramp

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« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2005, 12:59:56 pm »

I've actually taken some 1040's and put a red circle on them and took them to the local range for a little fun.It certainly got a chuckle and a overall positive response.I highly recommend people do this especially around this time of year.I'd like to see this idea catch on big time.
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Alton Speers

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Paying Taxes
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2005, 10:11:39 am »

1040 targets! I love it! Great idea! Might be worth considering other government forms from other agencies...a 4473 comes to mind.

Now that this year's "tax season" has passed, perhaps it's time to explore taxes. To disengage totally or to withdraw to some distance from the tax system does require premeditation.

If you are an emplyeee, taxes are automatically withheld from your paycheck. There are ways that you can minimize this amount by redoing the information that you provide on your W-4 forms. The W-4 forms are the basis of the W-2 forms.

Amazingly, you will discover that Federal Income Tax Withholding is, in many cases, an amount that is less than the Social Security withholding.

On top of the soc sec withholding for many people there is also a State Income Tax withholding and a Local and/or a county/city tax withholding. These last three, soc sec, state and local, are in total more than the amount withheld for federal taxes.

In short, as long as you remain an employee the hard truth is that you will NOT have much of an opportunity to avoid taxes. Whether you file or not is another matter.

Filing a tax return is really unnecessary unless you want a refund of a portion of the money stolen for income tax. The process pretty much goes as follows:
You work for your employer for a wage or salary
Your employer totals up your pay.
From the amount of pay the employer looks at the info you provided on your form W-4 and compares that info to the Withholding tables provided by the IRS. Those tables tell the employer how much money should be stolen (withheld) from you. Money which is then deposited in a special bank account.
At the end of every quarter (3 calendar months starting generally in January) your employer must file a 941(?) Report indicating how much money was deposited in the special bank account which tells the federal government to which individual taxpayers this money is credited.
This is done throughout the year.
At the end of the year the employer must provide you with a form W-2 indicating all the money stolen (withheld) from your pay over the course of the year and to which government agencies those moneys were sent.
In short, the federal income tax, soc sec tax, state and local taxes have already been paid and in most cases already spent.
Now you must file a return with the various governments to see if they have stolen enough. If they have stolen too much you are entitled to a return of the overage. If they haven't stolen enough then must make up the difference. Filing also ensures your compliance and marks your place in the flock. Failure to file means that you are self-willed. Not a team player. Not in compliance. You will be targeted for a full sheep dip and complete shearing. The governments still have all the money taken from you but you are not saying thank you. This is bad and the government will seek to correct your willfulness. Failure to file does NOT deny the government any funds. It just upsets them no end that you are being defiant.

Self-employed employers have it much worse than you. They get to pay even more taxes than the employee. They get to do much more paperwork than you do. They get to file quarterly. They also get to write an actual check to the government which makes a real big hole in their bank account. Yes, employers do get to deduct business expenses like paper clips, computers and even your wages and the costs of your benefits like health insurance. However, this means that there must be enough business to pay for all this stuff first because they can't deduct costs unless and until those costs have already been paid. This also makes a big hole in the employers bank account. If there's not enough business then this means fewer emplyees, fewer benefits, lower wages and fewer taxes being paid. The government doesn't like this but it is more than willing to steal all money available to be stolen. The success of the business is not the concern of the government. The government's only interest is the money it can steal.

Corporate employers are a different kind of beast. The owners are the stockholders. The Chairman of the Board, the CEO, CFO, COO and all the vice-presidents, directors, managers and anyone else with a white collar are NOT the owners UNLESS they own some of the stock of the company. They are merely agents. They are the servants of the corporation. They too, are employees just like you. The government looks at a corporation like it's a person. The government taxes the corporation just like a it's a person. The government taxes the corporation twice because it also taxes ALL of the shareholders for any profits they received from the corporation. This is called double-dipping. Governments like corporations because they can tax them twice. However, there are other characteristics of the government/corporate relationship that make governments do wierd things. We won't take the time to explore those wierd things here because there are way too many and they are way too wierd. Yes, even more wierd than calling theft legal by renaming it taxation.

To avoid taxation you must do things that the government, for it's convenience and purposes, calls illegal, criminal and immoral. They really want you to feel bad for not letting them steal your money. So bad in fact, that they are more than willing to put the hurt on you themselves. Yes, even up to the point of putting the muzzle of a firearm in your face. This is indeed risky business. It is very dangerous.

The easiest way to avoid taxes is to simply not work. No income = no income taxes. Simple indeed but, not very effective. Where I come from if you don't work, you don't eat. Not a very healthy choice and it doesn't add to the pleasure of life. Of course, one could always go on welfare. Used to be you could live rather well off of welfare doles. That's not true today. Welfare has been mangled to the point where one receives very little support and only for a limited time. It's good for a personal sabbatical but not much else.

There is one benefit of welfare that shouldn't be overlooked though and that is that it's a gateway to tax avoidance. Moral and ethical considerations aside, welfare is a great first stepping stone or jumping off point for tax avoidance. It's a way to drop through the cracks in system and disappear from sight. Once through the system a person can seek to live in any way one can manage without re-appearing in the system. You can also become a ghost. Change identities and become anyone you want...except yourself. Maybe practical for some but not for everyone.

If you choose to remain yourself, that is to keep your real identity, your options are very limited. Working only for cash, never, ever divulging your soc sec number. You can't accept any checks no matter how good or how big they may be. You must avoid stops by cops at all costs. When all is said and done you severely limit your own freedom.

Another alternative is to work out a tolerable compromise. Take on a part-time job which keeps you in the tax system and let the government steal the fruits of your labor. During the time when you're not working for your employer(s) you can stay busy making real income (cash) by working the underground economy. Grey and Black markets never die. They never go away. Some are very much out in the open. Ebay is a good example. Flea markets, swap meets, garage sales, collectibles and antiques shows, in fact most any service or products can be taken to the grey and black markets and sold for cash. Starving artists? Don't believe it. Ever wonder about the war on cash? It's to kill these grey and black markets. For the perceptive it's also a good reason to work on developing skills in barter and networking markets. It's also another good reason to start looking into alternative currencies. No one can eat dollars or Euros or gold or silver. Neither can you eat lumber or concrete or steel. Yet these are the things that people need, want, use and have to trade. How do you turn a concrete block into a loaf of bread? Is it a direct exchange? Can you accept a pallet of concrete blocks and turn those into a month's supply of food? Could you do it in less than 10 exchanges? Can you turn 500# of A2 tool steel into silver or gold? Can you do it in less than 10 exchanges? Are you currently turning your dollars into silver and gold or other easily exchangable goods? If not, why not?

There's lots of ways to exploit the current systems for your benefit. There are lots of ways to drop below radar right now. And now is a good time. Being from an agricultural background and area I am well acquainted with the old saying, "Make hay while the sun shines". Today the sun shines though somewhat dimly. Now is a good time to develop bartering skills and to learn to network markets. No one knows what the economy is going to do. Whatever it is going to do will not be good. despite all the propaganda the fed and the central government cannot endlessly defy basic economic rules without penalty. ALL fiat currencies throughout ALL of history have failed. the dollar will be no exception. Neither will the Euro, the yen, the yuan or any other fiat currency. Another fact is that over-reaching governments ALWAYS fail. The US government will not be an exception. People cannot eat dollars. people cannot wear dollars. People cannot build dollar huts to live in. People need food. People need material for clothing. people need building supplies to build shelter to live in. Dollars or other currencies, stocks, bonds, derviatives, puts, calls and other financial instruments are not the materials needed. Yes, for now they can be used to obtain the materials needed. When they lose their value (and they WILL lose their value) they won't even be suitable for use as toilet paper. What then? Now is the time to make hay while the sun shines. Learn the ropes and if you can, stockpile useful goods for trading.

Another alternative to taxation is becoming another Larken Rose or Irwin Schiff. Open resistance is risky as these men have demonstrated. You could also just refuse to comply. That too, also has risks.

Of course, you could just accept the system and be compliant with the law.

Whatever you decide to do, at least for the moment there is a choice and you have the flexibility to choose whatever will work best with your situation, beliefs and abilities to act. However, like the TV commercials...Act Now! This is a limited time offer!

Alton
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Lightning

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« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2005, 10:34:57 am »

Damn, Alton, what a fantastic post.  I love this part in particular:
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Filing also ensures your compliance and marks your place in the flock. Failure to file means that you are self-willed. Not a team player. Not in compliance. You will be targeted for a full sheep dip and complete shearing.
Thanks for your thoughts.  I'm with you.  Buy all the gold, guns and trade items you can now, while you don't need quite so many fiat dollars to do so.  And find ways - extra hours at work, a second job, an underground business, a few wisely-chosen investments - to bring in more fiat dollars now, that you can turn into tangible worth while the sun still shines.

Oh, and pay off your debt now, dear friends (another reason for augmenting your FRN income ASAP), so you'll be ready to live on very little, perhaps just the income from your bartering/trading, when the need arises.

Bravissimo!   B)  
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RagnarDanneskjold

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Paying Taxes
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2005, 12:15:16 pm »

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Another alternative to taxation is becoming another Larken Rose or Irwin Schiff. Open resistance is risky as these men have demonstrated. You could also just refuse to comply. That too, also has risks.
The risks in refusing to comply are miniscule in comparison to open resistance ala Schiff or Rose. They not only openly resist, they promote themselves. As did Al Thompson and Dick Simkanin.
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The Mayor is the Problem
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We hung the first one
We can hang another one

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Dear Government
You are a ass shit.

A note from my younger son when he was 3.

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Alton Speers

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Paying Taxes
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2005, 05:13:47 pm »

Thank you Lightning! :)

Ragnar, good points! I must admit that I do admire their bravery and tenacity, Unfortunately, I don't think just dealing with taxes is the answer. We need a broad spectrum governicide before those weeds take over the entire garden and ruin it. Roundup might have worked but the roots on these things are too deep. They just keep popping back up.

Alton
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RagnarDanneskjold

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Paying Taxes
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2005, 10:01:27 pm »

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Unfortunately, I don't think just dealing with taxes is the answer. We need a broad spectrum governicide before those weeds take over the entire garden and ruin it.
What you said. What Jim Davies said - strikin' at the roots.  B)  
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The Mayor is the Problem
The flagpole is the answer
We hung the first one
We can hang another one

The Firesign Theatre - from the album Boom Dot Bust

Dear Government
You are a ass shit.

A note from my younger son when he was 3.

When rights are outlawed, only outlaws will have rights. - Me


Round up everybody who can ride a horse or pull a trigger. Let's break out some Winchesters.  - John Wayne (Chisum)
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