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[MamaLiberty]

[I put this here because it does not really fit into the "guns and gear" category, nor the "activism" stuff. ]

When is deadly force justified? We all know that comes with a threat or attack that puts us or others in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm. The attacker must have the ability, proximity and demonstrate intent to do that harm. How you determine that in the few seconds you might have to mount a defense... well, that's a good question. If you wait long enough to carefully evaluate those things, you might not survive it. This is clearer and more defensible inside your home, but when you take to the streets you don't have that advantage.

The problem is proving those conditions existed, after the fact to the court. And yes, you will likely have to prove it rather than the court system having to prove you were the aggressor. And most districts will work hard to prove you guilty... of SOMETHING.

The "reasonable man" doctrine. "Would a reasonable person under the same circumstances, knowing what you knew at the time, likely have used deadly force in self defense?"

This sounds fair, until you really think about it. "Reasonable" is about as subjective as you can get! So, finding a jury of people who will accept your "reasonable" account of the affair is a crap shoot. You would probably find 12 people who were  "reasonable" about the attack here in NE Wyoming, but probably not in New Jersey or So. California.

And then you could contemplate all of the laws, rules, customs and prejudices of your fellow citizens. All that should only take a few hours, in reality, or at least it will eat up all of the few seconds you have left to live.  You probably don't want to spend those seconds trying to decide if you really can and should draw and shoot.

So, it would seem very good to have spent some time thinking about this, learning as much as you can about those "reasonable" people, the laws and customs, etc. long before you strap on a gun and carry it out into public.

I recently joined the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network. www.armedcitizensnetwork.org
Rather than me typing all of the information, please take a look at the link if you are interested.

They have sent me a number of booklets called, "What Every Gun Owner Needs to Know About Self-Defense Law"
If you PM me with your mailing address, I'll be glad to send you one - while supplies last.

In the meantime, what is the situation where you live? What would be the "reasonable man" verdict there?
Have you given serious thought to these things?

Let's talk about it.

[Barrett K]

Thank you for the info. I haven't given too much thought, but it a very important issue for those of us that carry.

[knobster]

There have been a few justified shootings in my country and the local sheriff is very, very good.  He wishes more folks would get some sort of training and arm themselves.  He has offered to come to our church and talk through potential scenarios on how the 'security team' (aka the handful of ushers) could and should handle them.  He did admit that anyone involved in a shooting would be brought downtown for questioning but I have yet to hear of someone in my area going to jail for shooting a bad guy that broke into ones home or car.

[MamaLiberty]

I have yet to hear of someone in my area going to jail for shooting a bad guy that broke into ones home or car.

That would definitely be the case here. Not much to worry about if you are home or in your car. It is the remotely possible street encounter, or being involved in a crime scene like an attempted robbery in a store or other business that concerns me. Especially an encounter without witnesses. It might be a little more difficult proving you were in "fear of your life" even here. One reason I very carefully stay home at night, and don't go to stupid places if at all possible.

[knobster]

One reason I very carefully stay home at night, and don't go to stupid places if at all possible.

Amen to that!

[MamaLiberty]

Amen to that!

I read a lot of gun stuff, and am always amused by the wide range of people making comments. Of course, lots of them are younger folks, and many are operational operators who have no patience at all for us lesser folks. A few times, I've enjoyed sharing my experiences as an armed person... then letting them know that I'm 70 years old, partially disabled, mostly deaf, and unable by any means to engage in hand to hand combat - even with my new heavy walking stick.... though I am practicing with it. Anyway, some don't think I should be carrying a gun at all. I've asked them when they wished to move here and start the job as my permanent bodyguard... crickets, every time.

And then, one time someone asked me why in the world I'd want to carry a gun. I told her about the time I had to shoot a man to save my life. I thought she was going to faint. LOL  I told her that the less I looked and acted like an easy victim, the less likely it would be I'd ever have to shoot someone again... but the risk would never be zero. I seriously doubt she'll ever open her eyes that much, or realize what an easy target she presents. Very sad.

[knobster]

Anyway, some don't think I should be carrying a gun at all. I've asked them when they wished to move here and start the job as my permanent bodyguard... crickets, every time.

 
How very telling.

[mouse]

. Anyway, some don't think I should be carrying a gun at all. I've asked them when they wished to move here and start the job as my permanent bodyguard... crickets, every time.

Ha, ha, good answer.

Getting to my personal situation though, although I probably should stay away from it coz I really have no idea of the situation in America today (only what I read and I'll have to admit that I only read stuff that says what I want to hear.  And I must acknowledge that America is now a world away from the America I visited about - well it seems like it now - 100 years ago).

Although I kind of admire the "gun culture" in America and I would really like to own a gun here I just have to accept that the laws (dishonest or not) have ensured that I could never financially afford to do so.

However, I do feel that I genuinely don't need any personal protection device.  I have never felt in danger.  I don't need a body guard and there is no one out to get me.  I am aware that there is a lot of evil out there but I seriously don't think it will ever come up that I will ever be involved in a self defence situation.  I have learnt one thing though, and that is that no matter what the "letter of the law", it can be and probably will be twisted and misinterpreted.  So as someone on these boards said some time ago (sorry I know that it was definitely said here, but can't remember who said it or when):  "Shoot, shovel and shutup".

My 2c worth anyway.  Mainly trying to write something so that these boards don't die of underuse syndrome.

[casca-503]

MOUSE,  I  do not  completely agree   with all   that   is   shared here   by   any one......that   said....I  respect   and  appreciate  your   comments    and  opinions....perspective....thank   you  for   it   all...  /  casca.....the   old   grunt   in the woods...   

[MamaLiberty]

However, I do feel that I genuinely don't need any personal protection device.  I have never felt in danger.  I don't need a body guard and there is no one out to get me.  I am aware that there is a lot of evil out there but I seriously don't think it will ever come up that I will ever be involved in a self defence situation.

That being your choice, you take your chances, of course, however small they may be.  I suspect there are store/bank robberies and muggings in dark parking lots, home invasions, even a few seriously bad people there, and always a chance of you being in the wrong place when one of those happens... I've never been there so don't know personally, but that seems to be true all over the world. If none of those things ever happen to you, you are very fortunate. But ONE incident is too many if you or your family are harmed, I'd think. We don't have much real crime here where I live either, but it does happen and CAN happen without warning. A young woman was murdered about a mile from my house a few years ago. She was unarmed... Another neighbor just down the road was stabbed and seriously injured when she went out to confront some stranger trying to get into her truck. She lived, but was never the same, of course. She was also unarmed....

The fact that you are basically prevented from defending yourself there is terribly sad. But we each live with the limitations of our would- be overlords. All we can do is our best to fight it or live with it. Life itself is dangerous, and we take our chances each day along with whatever precautions seems wise to us... take care.  

[knobster]

What ML said...

I've never been in such situations but there have been a number of them nearby.  Fortunately (or unfortunately) they were usually an angry ex-boyfriend bent on revenge against the girl who dumped him so it was a targeted attack.  However, the possibility of collateral damage was high - he shot her in a crowded mall during lunch in the food court.

When it comes to people, anything can and will happen...

[MamaLiberty]

When it comes to people, anything can and will happen...

Indeed, and unfortunately, more people seem to be losing control of themselves all the time these days, with attacks going far beyond mere love life breakdowns. The gang warfare is a prime example. The noted causes, such as the drug war or racial strife, are symptoms of the greater disease. That being the lack of self responsibility/ownership, the destruction of the family, family discipline, real education, and the totally skewed "laws" and law enforcement. The "state" claims to be the parents; owners of everyone and everything, and this has created generations of monsters and victims instead.

[TANSTAAFL]

Without going into much detail there are some definite truths that most people never realize until it's far too late:

The situation where you have to defend yourself will almost certainly be something entirely unexpected that you have never ever considered would happen.

No matter whether the law is on your side, you were completely in the right, and witnesses corroborate it, if it's the wrong person (eg someone powerful, related to such, or a local favorite) you are seriously close to completely fucked. The power of a prosecutor to destroy is nearly unrestrained.

The nearly universal thing what will right the situation is application of financial resources--probably more than you will have and roughly equivalent to the average lifetime production of an average person. It sucks but it's the way of the world.

When (if) you get clear of the situation you'll wonder for a long time how and what the hell you were thinking assuming that the law would be on your side, your neighbors would support you because you were in the right, and that if you tell the truth and do what you are "supposed" to do there is a reasonable chance justice will be served.

[MamaLiberty]

TANSTAAFL: "The situation where you have to defend yourself will almost certainly be something entirely unexpected that you have never ever considered would happen."

Sometimes, sure, but that has not been my experience - and it is preventable. Practical and ongoing situational awareness is probably the most important way to avoid confrontations of all kinds. I read about DGU and other self defense events as much as I can, and think about how I can avoid getting into those situations. I do a lot of visualization of potential problems, and various ways I could deal with them.

The situation will much more likely be unexpected if you've not given it much thought before hand. Here are some of the situations I've found myself in... and what I did about them. All serious learning opportunities.

Unreported – The Crime That Didn’t Happen
https://thepriceofliberty.org/2014/01/21/unreported-the-crime-that-didnt-happen/

And the only time I WAS attacked, and defended myself. Not perfect, by any means, but I survived and learned much.
https://thepriceofliberty.org/the-man-i-might-have-killed/

[knobster]

Great stories ML.  I'll share with my wife who still hasn't taken the next step of actually carrying a gun with her at all times.  She enjoys shooting and I keep training with her but she still doesn't feel comfortable enough having it with her.