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[Bill St. Clair]

I hate to open the abortion can of works again. Been there. Done that. Nobody ever changes their position.

But a cow's or a deer's heart also begins to beat at some time after conception. And they also have brainwaves. Are we to consider it murder to kill and eat cows and deer and snakes and fish? If so, your position is at least consistent. If not, why are humans special?

[da gooch]

I hate to open the abortion can of works again. Been there. Done that. Nobody ever changes their position.

But a cow's or a deer's heart also begins to beat at some time after conception. And they also have brainwaves. Are we to consider it murder to kill and eat cows and deer and snakes and fish? If so, your position is at least consistent. If not, why are humans special?

I Think (talk about a can of worms ...) I think it reduces down to species bigotry and arrogance.

Humans are mammals and no more important to the universe than a rhesus monkey in a jungle tree or a lamb in an abattoir.

The argument that we (humans) "are special" due to some religious connection is hogwash in my opinion.
Religion is a man made structure meant to provide a source of living for a priestly caste.
It is little more than a disguised (and poorly) form of governance which relies upon an unseen and unknowable fulcrum upon which all answers are decided in favor of the unseen and unknowable super being.(the name or identity changes throughout time according to who the Rulers of the day happen to favor)
Each version has its own book of writings that supposedly answers all of the questions of this earthly existence for the faithful. Every time the answer reduces down to believe and the answers will appear.

I am reminded of Mrs Pelosi telling Congress to (I paraphrase) "just vote the bill in and then we can find out what is in it."

Short form ... Humans are Not Special except to themselves. (see note about bigotry and arrogance)

[Bill St. Clair]

I Think (talk about a can of worms ...) I think it reduces down to species bigotry and arrogance.

Interesting opinion. Not what I said in my essay. I believe humans, and likely apes, chimpanzees, whales, and dolphins are special, but not because I share their species, because we are sapient. We can reason about our world, imagine the future, and fear our death, in the absence of an immediate threat. We have a right to life because we can conceive of that idea.

But you're correct that nature doesn't care. Those who are fit enough to handle the life-threatening events in their environment survive. Others don't. No matter what we may think about how it should be. If enough individuals in a species survive long enough to reproduce, the species survives. Nature cares not a whit about any of it. If God exists, ours are Her only hands on Earth.

[Splash22]

My thoughts Bill aren't religious in nature, I don't see animals deliberately killing their young in utero at their most vulnerable.
Arrogance? Indeed agreed, humans are arrogant and think themselves omnipotent to all life.

My disagreement was viewing living fetuses as property, to be disposed of, as old tires.
The "rape, incest, mother's life in danger",  merely got the foot in the door to abominations...Third trimester, post birth abortions, and " choice parts sales".

I don't believe in religion,I don't think the One who set this all up, believes in religion either.
~S

[Bill St. Clair]

My disagreement was viewing living fetuses as property, to be disposed of, as old tires.
The "rape, incest, mother's life in danger",  merely got the foot in the door to abominations...Third trimester, post birth abortions, and " choice parts sales".

A lot of that is my reticence to admit gray areas. Human fetuses become infants become children become adolescents become adults. At some point they pass from animal (food, property) to sapient being with rights. Lots of people want to set that point at conception. I find that absurd. Why not then set it BEFORE conception, and label menstruation as murder of a potential human? So I choose birth, even though I think humans are still basically no more developed than animals at that point.

And then there are the radical vegans, who want to label intentional killing of ANY animal as murder. I eat mostly vegetarian (milk products and occasional fish, but no fowl or mammals), but for spiritual, not philosophical reasons; fowl and mammals bring me down. But if you like eating cow cadavers, go for it.