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[Klapton Isgod]

Darn, Klapton... do we really need to start the name calling and nonsense here. If you want to cuss out Lenny, send him a PM, please.

He was a douche in public, but whatever.  I doubt I'll have anything more to say to him now.

[Lenny]

It's not time to engage the pigs, because it would be a slaughter (or the start of AmRev II). Agreed. That being the case, it's sure as hell not time to charge in, rifles slung, to keep their VICTIMS in line. In this case, it were FAR better to stay the hell away from Ferguson entirely, than to show up and let the victims know that while you're afraid to confront the murderers (because it's dangerous), you will cheerfully take up arms against their powerless victims.

Or even better, show up (with or without rifles slung) and March WITH the protesters. That would at least align yourselves with the victims rather than against them.

"Just because we're there intimidating the pigs' victims, doesn't mean we're supporting the pigs," may be true in an academic sense, but it's not a very interesting distinction. You could as easily have showed up in Selma and said, "We're protecting the property rights of lunch counter owners is all--we actually HATE the Jim Crow laws!"

Better to stay the fuck home, than that.

[Bill St. Clair]

Reminds me of one of my favorite quotes.

"Bob Wright has been a compatriot and friend of mine for almost twenty years now. My favorite Bob anecdote: Back in the 90s he was asked by the FBI SAC from Albuquerque whether he would actually activate his unit and go to the scene of another potential Waco in another state. Bob looked him dead in eye and asked: 'Why would I want to do that? There's plenty of you federal sonsabitches around here.' This was an angle that the Fibbie had not previously considered and Bob was enunciating an essential truth of militia. We are all strongest on our home turf." -- Mike Vanderboegh

[StillaGhost]

*************
Or even better, show up (with or without rifles slung) and March WITH the protesters. That would at least align yourselves with the victims rather than against them.
******************************
"Just because we're there intimidating the pigs' victims, doesn't mean we're supporting the pigs," may be true in an academic sense, but it's not a very interesting distinction. You could as easily have showed up in Selma and said, "We're protecting the property rights of lunch counter owners is all--we actually HATE the Jim Crow laws!"

Better to stay the fuck home, than that.

 
 
  Lenny , not that I don't agree with you pretty much completely with regard to the Genesis of the problems in Ferguson ( and many other locales)...........but can't you see the Fly in your own Ointment within the highlighted section above?
 
   Since a goodly portion of the looting etc. came from the socalled " protesters " the question arises of what you would have us do when said protesters start their abusive crap?
 
  This isn't Selma , such comparisons are a Red Herring. The cadre that has looted and burned aren't peaceful in the least and in the end are no better morally or ethically than the mindless LEO drones that they face.
 
  And this of course isn't the Bundy incident , the situation for the Oathkeepers has much less of a tenable base in Ferguson than in Nevada , and no matter WHAT we do there will be bitching and complaining from one quarter or another.

[Moonbeam]

StillaGhost brings up a sentiment that I believe many feel... Why burn and loot your own vicinity?

The reaction of those who experienced horrific treatment back in the '60's serves as an incredibly honorable example of how to handle oneself (his citing Selma in particular) IMHO. I have been EXTREMELY pissed off at others - and I have suffered at the hands of others. But, I have never believed I was entitled or obligated to harm them or their property or for that matter harm someone or something completely unrelated to the subject that caused me grief.

Passion? Rage? Frustration? Anguish? Despair? Hopelessness? Betrayed? Alone? Yes, we have all experienced those emotions and places in our lives that have burned inside us so intensely.

I think many folks on the outside looking in are quickly losing sympathy for the suffering that blacks have experienced when they see the looting, etc. Speaking for myself, I see situations like that and the LA riots, for example, and I am angered that others cannot control themselves. Why cannot folks channel their energetic frustration into something positive? It disgusts me when I see looting and I cannot dismiss it as natural reaction to decades of oppression (oppression that was gladly welcomed, but that's whole other discussion). In a way I can understand OK not wanting to associate with that [looting] deplorable behavior.

Perhaps I do not have all the facts and I am posting a knee-jerk reaction. It is easy for one to project their own feelings and beliefs onto others after all. And I admit to some degree that is what I am doing, rightly or wrongly. I know the shitty things I have been through and haven't taken my rage out on others - especially those who have nothing to do with what happened to me. It's hard for me to muster empathy when what sympathy I had has been squandered by those who merely want revenge - not to remedy their lives or improve their communities or advance their group's (gender, religion, race, or however they associate) self-reliance and liberty.

As for OK perhaps establishing image is paramount? I have no problems with them standing with the small business owners, and if I were one there I would be gracious in welcoming them. Their being present in that capacity is not illegal (so in an abstract/general way for the ignorant why would the LEO's go after them?) and I certainly don't think many would find it immoral. While I don't think that OK is in this for the glory, why shoot yourself in the foot associating with foolishness? And for those Johnny and Suzy Citizens why show them you support illegal activities (legal and illegal a whole other topic, of course). OK is - and I think should be, a recognized and reliable organization for promoting peace and liberty. I assume they are still in the infant stages thus cannot go plopping daisies into the barrel of bean-bag or bullet guns (nor is that necessarily a useful way to go about changing things) I would think that their presence in Texas last year would show their seriousness and commitment to fighting tyranny among the peace lovers.

My apologies for the lengthy commentary and thanks for a place to share such thoughts that tumble around my noggin without always getting sprung free. Back to homeschooling stuff for now...

[MamaLiberty]

Why burn and loot your own vicinity?

Why burn and loot anything/anywhere? I've been seriously abused a few times, but never even considered burning, looting and attacking anyone as an option.  Self defense is a whole different thing.

I think the burners and looters need to be dealt with by their families and neighbors. People coming in from outside the community to burn and loot need to be wiped out by those who's homes, businesses and families are threatened. The ordinary people of Ferguson outnumber the burners and looters by quite a margin... and they can get guns as easily as anyone else if they want to. It is highly likely that if the people there showed a serious determination to defend themselves, and followed through on it, the fighting and looting would stop fast. Maybe Oathkeepers can show them the way, but they can't really do it for them.

Everyone has to face the consequences of their choices and actions eventually.

[Docliberty]

I will probably regret this..but here goes.

I (through my wife) have been following this situation since just a few hours after Mike Brown was shot.  Not through media outlets but through live streams and tweets from those that were there.  Based on that information, the police have been textbook Jack Booted Thugs from the first night.  The only business that burned that first night (the Quick Trip) was also the only business that had security cameras that could have potentially captured the shooting.  The protesters have repeatedly tweeted about agents provocateur within their ranks and have taken steps to neutralize them as best they could.  There was even a picture of a cop handcuffing a protester and they were both wearing the same department issued utility boots.  It is believed by many of the protesters that the looters were brought into the area, possibly by the cops to provide justification for escalating the situation.

I bring this up to set the stage for what the OKs are in the middle of.  For the protesters, they are white guys with guns and are not to be trusted.  For the cops they are white guys (so they cannot be summarily shot) with guns and armor (possibly betters than theirs) and superior training and experience that could easily start actively working against them.  What a situation to be in.  The good thing to come from this is that some of the BLM leaders are saying that if they did what OK is doing that they would be summarily shot.  This is a dialogue that needs to happen if second amendment rights are to be secured for all citizens.

The situation is St. Louis is far more complex than we can see from a distance.  Indications are that this has been going on for decades but is just now coming to light as the dual factors of wide-spread instant communication through the internet and massive amounts of photographic proof through cell phone cameras comes to bear.  I sincerely hope that violence will not be required to get TPTB start acting responsibly but they are just not getting that "business as usual" is no longer going to work or even be acceptable.

[Tahn L.]

I tried to find it is a search but could not. Listening to NPR during the Baltimore riots I heard an interview with a resident who stated, as best I can remember, that one looted business "deserved it" because they refused to give/loan him a shirt one time because "he needed it".

[StillaGhost]

 
 
   Criminy Christmas guys , I mean really WTF? Indications? Hell anyone south of the Mason-Dixon and east of Austin can tell you what's gone on in St.Louis and vicinity for decades , as in multiples OF..........and quite a sum of Yankees know too.
 
  The fuse on this particular damn powderkeg has been burning for 40 years or better. And the reason it's gone that long is because of the targets selected and their history of submitting to such abuses.

[da gooch]

Here we go again! Obviously, the reporter and/or organization is against OKers.

Heavily armed 'Oath Keepers' inject disquieting element in Ferguson
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/heavily-armed-oath-keepers-inject-unease-riot-hit-085709866.html
>>> (Image removed for bandwidth concerns) <<<

FERGUSON, Mo. (Reuters) - Four white men carrying military-style rifles and sidearms added a disquieting element to riot-torn Ferguson, Missouri, when they began patrolling the streets before dawn on Tuesday, which police quickly labeled "inflammatory."
The men said they were part of a group called "Oath Keepers," which describes itself as a non-partisan association of current and former U.S. soldiers, police and first responders who aim to protect the U.S. Constitution. They told reporters on the street that they were in Ferguson to protect a media organization.
The men attracted immediate attention in the mostly black neighborhood, which exploded into violence on Sunday night as protesters marked the one-year anniversary of the killing of an unarmed black teen by police.

Well....That's all fine and dandy, but then they added this-

The Southern Poverty Law Center, a non-profit civil rights organization, has described the "Oath Keepers" as a "fiercely anti-government, militaristic group," and St. Louis County Police Chief Jon Belmar condemned their appearance in Ferguson.
"Their presence was both unnecessary and inflammatory," he said, adding that police would work with county prosecutors to see if the men had broken any laws.

Isn't the Oathkeepers a police Org.?

And why would anyone listen to the SPLC?
They are the biggest racist group in the US.

Did this line get missed as you were reading?
"The men said they were part of a group called "Oath Keepers," which describes itself as a non-partisan association of current and former U.S. soldiers, police and first responders who aim to protect the U.S. Constitution." (Note this IS the original concept of the organization. Although properly stated they 'ideally' are there to protect the public by obeying the Constitution and seeing that the local 'oath takers' do also.

And ... immediately following please do notice this line .... "They told reporters on the street that they were in Ferguson to protect a media organization."
This would make it clear that they are there to protect the abused businesses and property owners within the community not the PTB's and that they are there at the invitation of those businesses or organizations.



edit to add italics and further comment.

[Docliberty]

 
   Criminy Christmas guys , I mean really WTF? Indications? Hell anyone south of the Mason-Dixon and east of Austin can tell you what's gone on in St.Louis and vicinity for decades , as in multiples OF..........and quite a sum of Yankees know too.
 
  The fuse on this particular damn powderkeg has been burning for 40 years or better. And the reason it's gone that long is because of the targets selected and their history of submitting to such abuses.

OK SAG, I agree with you but I have no proof, therefore I use the term "Indications are".  The rumor has it that Darren Wilson and his now wife are closely associated with, if not members of, the local KKK chapter, but no proof has been forthcoming, therefore I do not mention it (except by way of illustration).  As you well know, in any forum on the internet, you have to be careful what you say,  Do I believe that the black community in the St. Louis area has been oppressed for decades?  Yes.  Do I believe that the St. Louis community leadership is closely associated with the KKK or something like it?  Yes.  Is any definitive proof of these allegations available?  None that I have seen.  So I hedge my posts accordingly.

[StillaGhost]

OK SAG, I agree with you but I have no proof, therefore I use the term "Indications are".  The rumor has it that Darren Wilson and his now wife are closely associated with, if not members of, the local KKK chapter, but no proof has been forthcoming, therefore I do not mention it (except by way of illustration).  As you well know, in any forum on the internet, you have to be careful what you say,  Do I believe that the black community in the St. Louis area has been oppressed for decades?  Yes.  Do I believe that the St. Louis community leadership is closely associated with the KKK or something like it?  Yes.  Is any definitive proof of these allegations available?  None that I have seen.  So I hedge my posts accordingly.

 
 
  Ok , you've got your point. But I'll say it if you won't ( in point of fact I think I did..) , and insofar as it goes the particular situation is not peculiar or specific to only Ferguson.
 
  The same situation exists all over the country , including a good many cities in " liberal " and "northern" locales. It's part and parcel of the larger syndrome i.e. " get in line or else"...

[Docliberty]

OK SAG, I agree with you but I have no proof, therefore I use the term "Indications are".  The rumor has it that Darren Wilson and his now wife are closely associated with, if not members of, the local KKK chapter, but no proof has been forthcoming, therefore I do not mention it (except by way of illustration).  As you well know, in any forum on the internet, you have to be careful what you say,  Do I believe that the black community in the St. Louis area has been oppressed for decades?  Yes.  Do I believe that the St. Louis community leadership is closely associated with the KKK or something like it?  Yes.  Is any definitive proof of these allegations available?  None that I have seen.  So I hedge my posts accordingly.

 
 
  Ok , you've got your point. But I'll say it if you won't ( in point of fact I think I did..) , and insofar as it goes the particular situation is not peculiar or specific to only Ferguson.
 
  The same situation exists all over the country , including a good many cities in " liberal " and "northern" locales. It's part and parcel of the larger syndrome i.e. " get in line or else"...

Small minded and petty people need someone to feel superior to.  People with different colored skin are easy to identify so you can quickly know who to feel superior to.

[StillaGhost]

Small minded and petty people need someone to feel superior to.  People with different colored skin are easy to identify so you can quickly know who to feel superior to.

 
 
   Exactly , along with the attendant socalled justifications based most often on nebulous statistics.  As as long as it's just the underclass being pounded on Mr. And mrs. JQP feel nice and safe
and warm-n-fuzzy.
 
  What said folks fail to realise is that the crapshow will eventually get 'round to *them*...........
 
  I invite you to take a closer look ( if you have the time) at some of the ridiculous laws in the 'burbs around St.Louis , you wouldn't believe me if I told you.

[Klapton Isgod]

I have yet to find any confirmation from any other source that any of this is actually true, but...

http://therundownlive.com/oath-keepers-to-arm-50-black-protesters-in-ferguson-with-ar-15s-for-an-epic-rights-flexing-march-2/

Ferguson, MO – The Missouri chapter of the Oath Keepers are planning to hold an open carry march through downtown Ferguson, Mo., which will reportedly involve arming 50 black people with AR-15 rifles.

The decision to hold the event transpired after St. Louis County officials, in violation of Missouri’s open carry law, insisted that members of the group could not open carry long barrel rifles within the city. In a video uploaded to YouTube, police chief Jon Belmar is seen warning a number of Oath Keepers that open carrying long barrel rifles would be a violation of the law.