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Author Topic: Greek community creates an off-the-grid Internet  (Read 2893 times)

Alchemist

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Greek community creates an off-the-grid Internet
« on: August 28, 2013, 07:18:03 am »

q
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 11:04:53 am by Alchemist »
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jamie

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Re: Greek community creates an off-the-grid Internet
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2013, 11:21:35 am »

this is great. I can imagine the NSA of the near future, they will only be able to monitor themselves.  NSA is  the dinosaur looking in wonderment at the thin film of ice  on the local pond one fine morning.
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MamaLiberty

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Re: Greek community creates an off-the-grid Internet
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2013, 11:42:50 am »

this is great. I can imagine the NSA of the near future, they will only be able to monitor themselves.  NSA is  the dinosaur looking in wonderment at the thin film of ice  on the local pond one fine morning.

Indeed... I really like the idea of the gigantic space rock coming down on them from the sky. But I'll take their demise any way I can get it.
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Re: Greek community creates an off-the-grid Internet
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2013, 11:49:43 pm »

Actually, with the right microwave equipment it can go faster than that... gigE is within sight.  What folks forget is that the main slag points in our current internet are ROUTING hops.  The fact that to get to point A, from point B, or from A to B for the more linearly minded, you may not always have the same exact perfect route, but, if, for example, you're in Wyoming (perfect example), your nearest and only hops are through Denver, down south, or through Chicago, out east.  Those are your main channels to other parts of the internet as we know it today.  Such backbone hops are the main gateways or  bottlenecks which government can cut off by force or fraud or complicit ISPs at the backbone level to deny an area its vast majority of internet provider access.

As an example, take Collins Communications, based out of Wyoming, with their main hops out through Denver, or Range Communications, out of Montana, with their main hops out through Chicago, and I'm not sure, but one up through Canada somewhere, Alberta, maybe?  Only thing north of there for some distance.

If the government were to get them or their backbone providers to cut service via those links, the only thing left would be a very high speed wireless local network, to the tune of some a few thousand bucks wholesale on the wireless "air fiber" antennas, and a nasty power bill (few hundred a month just to run the antennas and routing gear at each location.)

So it isn't the local level where your ISP issues are bad.  Mesh networks are easy, and almost every ISP out there is a basic example of a wired or wireless mesh.  The issue is WHO controls the wires and the endpoints.  Who controls the routes between the endpoints... and who controls the long distance interconnects between the mesh networks.

That has ALWAYS been the issue, and the vulnerability where governments developed and tyrannized people.  For freedom to develop, one must find a way to defend the trade routes from governments, and from the bottom feeding banditry which gives tyrants the excuse to create governments... "protection of trade routes."  Those trade routes, for data, are the long distance interconnects, be they between towns or between continents, or even, *gasp* between planets.

What your boys and girls there have create is ways for these networks to talk to each other and an overhead encrypted protocol to run on top of UDP/TCP and provide total data encapsulation and secrecy other than routes.  Once that is in place, they can snoop all they want.  All they can establish is scrambled data traveling between endpoints, occasionally hopping on their internet to get data and then just mostly hopping to and from boutique ISP to boutique ISP.  In the end, that's it.  That's how we'll win our freedom.  And keep it.  People no longer being complacent about their freedom and wellbeing.
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ZooT_aLLures

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Re: Greek community creates an off-the-grid Internet
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2013, 12:25:06 am »

i'm trying to get my head wrapped around batman advanced, but without other local folks to play...........it's going to take twice or three times as long to get a working implementation.
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Rarick

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Re: Greek community creates an off-the-grid Internet
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2013, 08:01:35 am »

Basically city road network vs. Interstate highways.........   The problem is creating the massive highway links to make the dark net.
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ZooT_aLLures

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Re: Greek community creates an off-the-grid Internet
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2013, 11:19:57 am »

Yeah, meaning that which is beyond of "line of sight".


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Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed.

We all have some scar tissue that never lets us completely forget the intent of the adventure.

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Re: Greek community creates an off-the-grid Internet
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2013, 12:45:37 am »

Yeah, meaning that which is beyond of "line of sight".

Still, with the right crew and a friendly loan guarantor, you can acquire this kind of hardware NOW, and pay for it in rates (unless you can afford it) and you can benefit your whole community with a good microwave link.  Tower rent might be high if you don't have a high rock on your property and a tower on the rock.  All in all, though, you can run 25 to 50 miles on a good microwave link, and longer if the line of sight is clear (Wyoming, Utah, North Dakota come to mind, hill to hill in South Dakota also.  Just ideas.  I'd love to get a bigger crew together and mesh some meshes. :D
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Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car.
Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall, torque is how far you take the wall with you.

ZooT_aLLures

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Re: Greek community creates an off-the-grid Internet
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2013, 12:35:17 pm »

Quote
All in all, though, you can run 25 to 50 miles on a good microwave link, and longer if the line of sight is clear

From what I've read, they got out an awful lot further than that using off the shelf 802.11b gear and old satelite dishes(8 feet in diameter and up) as concentrators/directors/collectors.

thought it was somewhere close to 300 miles from mountaintop to mountiantop..........out west at some big competition held by some university.

here in the city, I can reach out as far as I can see with my puny 1 watt WAPs.........just too bad that as of yet I can't reach back with the elcheapo tablet that I used to detect the signal as I walked around the neighborhood.

Which brings up another point, your "mesh" can will only extend out to the range of the endpoints.......meaning my 1 watt WAP's are useless if indeed the end user can't talk back because they're running some cheesy built-in notebook adapter that's only intended to be used to get from one end of a house to the other.
By the same token though, one watt wireless dongles are an awful lot cheaper than one watt WAP's(about $10-$30 versus almost $100 for starters)

Recently I've noticed some 2.5 watt dongles being offered for about $30-$40 as well.
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Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed.

We all have some scar tissue that never lets us completely forget the intent of the adventure.

Adventurer, Explorer, Inquiring Mind.

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Re: Greek community creates an off-the-grid Internet
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2013, 07:29:05 pm »

Quote
All in all, though, you can run 25 to 50 miles on a good microwave link, and longer if the line of sight is clear

From what I've read, they got out an awful lot further than that using off the shelf 802.11b gear and old satelite dishes(8 feet in diameter and up) as concentrators/directors/collectors.

thought it was somewhere close to 300 miles from mountaintop to mountiantop..........out west at some big competition held by some university.

here in the city, I can reach out as far as I can see with my puny 1 watt WAPs.........just too bad that as of yet I can't reach back with the elcheapo tablet that I used to detect the signal as I walked around the neighborhood.

Which brings up another point, your "mesh" can will only extend out to the range of the endpoints.......meaning my 1 watt WAP's are useless if indeed the end user can't talk back because they're running some cheesy built-in notebook adapter that's only intended to be used to get from one end of a house to the other.
By the same token though, one watt wireless dongles are an awful lot cheaper than one watt WAP's(about $10-$30 versus almost $100 for starters)

Recently I've noticed some 2.5 watt dongles being offered for about $30-$40 as well.

Not for the same kind of traffic throughput you can get from Air Fiber or some such toy.  The little toys throughput less, and tend to get lousy if you buy the wrong one.  I've got my share of corporate WAP's and home WAP's and all the stuff that connects to them, and I must say, I've seen some impressive stuff on the SOHO side, that makes some of the 300 to 600 buck, uber WAP's look like tinker toys at best.  Only things missing are automated "Rogue AP Detection" type features that the corporate WAP's have at the central control modules (Controller, Server, etc.)
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Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car.
Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall, torque is how far you take the wall with you.

ZooT_aLLures

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Re: Greek community creates an off-the-grid Internet
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2013, 11:44:54 pm »

Quote
Only things missing are automated "Rogue AP Detection" type features that the corporate WAP's have at the central control modules

The question is though:
Are you worried about that stuff?
Particularly for an extra-net implementation..............

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Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed.

We all have some scar tissue that never lets us completely forget the intent of the adventure.

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Re: Greek community creates an off-the-grid Internet
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2013, 12:08:12 pm »

Quote
Only things missing are automated "Rogue AP Detection" type features that the corporate WAP's have at the central control modules

The question is though:
Are you worried about that stuff?
Particularly for an extra-net implementation..............

I take it you didn't quite catch my unembedded sarcasm there. :D

I meant exactly that, an extra 200 to 500 or so for what?  A few corporate issues that are no more necessary than anything else again and can be "fixed" by guys like you and me who might actually know how to properly setup a network.
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Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car.
Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall, torque is how far you take the wall with you.

ZooT_aLLures

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Re: Greek community creates an off-the-grid Internet
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2013, 11:29:08 pm »

Quote
by guys like you and me who might actually know how to properly setup a network.

I'll take it you mean besides plugging in all the wires and turning DHCP on?*chuckles*

(edited in)
Er uh..........ya' ever play with VPN's?

Thinking maybe it's time to reincarnate the gulchnet project
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 12:42:26 am by ZooT_aLLures »
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Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed.

We all have some scar tissue that never lets us completely forget the intent of the adventure.

Adventurer, Explorer, Inquiring Mind.

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Re: Greek community creates an off-the-grid Internet
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2013, 12:43:06 am »

Quote
by guys like you and me who might actually know how to properly setup a network.

I'll take it you mean besides plugging in all the wires and turning DHCP on?*chuckles*

Well, actually I was referring to more in depth, proper setups where rogue AP detection (for one) would almost be a moot point.  As long as your network device firmware / software had the proper settings implemented.  I'll leave it at that.
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Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car.
Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall, torque is how far you take the wall with you.

ZooT_aLLures

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Re: Greek community creates an off-the-grid Internet
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2013, 12:23:06 pm »

So, do you have something in mind?
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Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed.

We all have some scar tissue that never lets us completely forget the intent of the adventure.
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