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Leonidas the Younger

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« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2005, 11:05:30 am »

Hi rockchucker,

Quote
I just have to respond here.

A'ight.

Quote
What "they" are doing to Linux is continuing to improve it. What this requires is that the developers continue to work on the code, and release is to people for testing. Yes, testing. This is the process, and Fedora is specifically meant to be pretty far out on the edge of it. Not as far out as using experimental kernels, but nonetheless close to the edge.

I understand the dev process. Thats no excuse for shoddy work, though. I also have come across no disclaimers stating that FC3 is "bleeding edge testing software", either.

Quote
The people who are developing Linux, and the apps that go with it have no other way to fully debug their code. Part of the issue is that Linux and other free software runs on such an enormous combination of hardware, that nobody, not even IBM, has the resources to test things out on all possible combinations.

Debian went on the computer that Fedora core three wouldn't. It went on with *ease*. And with no complications.

Whatsoever.

Quote
Far from being "THAT for down", the bleeding-edge distributions the most innovative. But they're also the least tested, because most people don't want to run at the bleeding edge, thus the pool of testers is smaller.

I don't consider it "innovative" to not be able to even install a minimal system.

Quote
So, WTF have they done to Linux? They've added features that make it easier to manage devices, particularly removable media such as USB drives. They've added support for more video cards and capabilities. They've improved hardware detection. The list goes on.

None of this matters a single bit if it can't even be installed, does it?

Quote
But remember, that no software is bug-free.

Right. Where did I claim otherwise?

Quote
Even Apple, which has absolute control of their hardware specification, and so, unlike Linux programmers, don't have to beg manufacturers for specs, or reverse-engineer the programming interface, always know exactly what the behavior of their target hardware. Because of its control of the hardware, Apple has a far smaller burden for testing how their code runs on what's available. Even Apple will have buggy code, because perfection is just not possible. Linux is remarkable for it's amazing success, despite the difficulties.

"Linux is remarkable"; you forget yourself.

You were DEFENDING Fedora! Not "Linux".

Please DO NOT take my "wtf have they done to Linux" to mean a general dislike of, or distaste of, or other negative reaction to, Linux as a whole!

F/OSS isn't just good because it is open and free (as in speech.). F/OSS is good because of it's attitude (thus far) on making sure the software works for the end user - as opposed to the way Gates does things.

I run Gentoo on my home computer. I've run Debian. And before RedHat became Fedora, I ran that. I switched to Debian due to the whole annoyance of rpms and dependencies. apt-get under Debian is just plain sweet. After I switched from RedHat, I found out that they distributed a modified X server with their distro, while not actually making that explicitly known. So I blame them for my not being able to get 3d graphics acceleration working.

Refusing to work with the F/OSS community is Redhat's right. Refusing to install their software, and even criticize it and them harshly, is mine. I still consider Redhat as "part of the fold". As opposed to Linspire, which I find to be an entirely reprehensible distribution.

-- Leonidas
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-- It may soon be time to say: "I plead the second."; are you ready?
-- What have you *DONE* for freedom today?
-- Collectives may exist under individualism, but individuals are not suffered to exist under collectivism.
-- I don't beg anyone for my freedom any more.  It isn't theirs to give me.  It's mine to take and to live. - Lightning.
-- Educated men are as much superior to uneducated men as the living are to the dead. - Aristotle

snokrash257

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« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2005, 04:45:17 pm »

Quote
Hi rockchucker,

Quote
I just have to respond here.

A'ight.

Quote
What "they" are doing to Linux is continuing to improve it. What this requires is that the developers continue to work on the code, and release is to people for testing. Yes, testing. This is the process, and Fedora is specifically meant to be pretty far out on the edge of it. Not as far out as using experimental kernels, but nonetheless close to the edge.

I understand the dev process. Thats no excuse for shoddy work, though. I also have come across no disclaimers stating that FC3 is "bleeding edge testing software", either.

Quote
The people who are developing Linux, and the apps that go with it have no other way to fully debug their code. Part of the issue is that Linux and other free software runs on such an enormous combination of hardware, that nobody, not even IBM, has the resources to test things out on all possible combinations.

Debian went on the computer that Fedora core three wouldn't. It went on with *ease*. And with no complications.

Whatsoever.

Quote
Far from being "THAT for down", the bleeding-edge distributions the most innovative. But they're also the least tested, because most people don't want to run at the bleeding edge, thus the pool of testers is smaller.

I don't consider it "innovative" to not be able to even install a minimal system.

Quote
So, WTF have they done to Linux? They've added features that make it easier to manage devices, particularly removable media such as USB drives. They've added support for more video cards and capabilities. They've improved hardware detection. The list goes on.

None of this matters a single bit if it can't even be installed, does it?

Quote
But remember, that no software is bug-free.

Right. Where did I claim otherwise?

Quote
Even Apple, which has absolute control of their hardware specification, and so, unlike Linux programmers, don't have to beg manufacturers for specs, or reverse-engineer the programming interface, always know exactly what the behavior of their target hardware. Because of its control of the hardware, Apple has a far smaller burden for testing how their code runs on what's available. Even Apple will have buggy code, because perfection is just not possible. Linux is remarkable for it's amazing success, despite the difficulties.

"Linux is remarkable"; you forget yourself.

You were DEFENDING Fedora! Not "Linux".

Please DO NOT take my "wtf have they done to Linux" to mean a general dislike of, or distaste of, or other negative reaction to, Linux as a whole!

F/OSS isn't just good because it is open and free (as in speech.). F/OSS is good because of it's attitude (thus far) on making sure the software works for the end user - as opposed to the way Gates does things.

I run Gentoo on my home computer. I've run Debian. And before RedHat became Fedora, I ran that. I switched to Debian due to the whole annoyance of rpms and dependencies. apt-get under Debian is just plain sweet. After I switched from RedHat, I found out that they distributed a modified X server with their distro, while not actually making that explicitly known. So I blame them for my not being able to get 3d graphics acceleration working.

Refusing to work with the F/OSS community is Redhat's right. Refusing to install their software, and even criticize it and them harshly, is mine. I still consider Redhat as "part of the fold". As opposed to Linspire, which I find to be an entirely reprehensible distribution.

-- Leonidas
Can I add an AMEN!!!
I haven't liked Redhat since about RH7.  I haven't been able to get Fedora (2 or 3) to install on any of my computers.

I've tried several other distros, and have finally decided that I love Debian, and will probably stick with it.  If I want a stable system, I can choose woody, if I want a little more modern software, I can install sarge (which I have on two computers), and if I want bleeding edge, I can get stuff from sid (I basically just pick and choose stuff off there that I really can't live without.)

I tried Xamndros (which is a gussied up Debian, with some nice features, and some that aren't all that great--It's file manager, network setup, and Xandros Networks, are excellent, and if you're a newbie a Linux, I'd highly recommend it. )  But I like Debian, because it is free (as in freedom), and apt is like Nirvana.  I can kick in money to help the project anytime, too.  
Ubuntu looks good, but I haven't tried it yet.
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lee n. field

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« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2005, 09:44:43 pm »

Quote
>lee n. field: Debian is much better at that. Much

You know, I hear this all the time from Debian enthusiasts. Used to be there was no argument. But these days, hey, you can use apt for RPM if you want. And both up2date and yum do a very good job. Well, since I mentioned pissing matches, that's all I'm gonna say about that one. rolleyes.gif

<shrug>.  Standard disclaimers apply.  It was 4 years ago that I moved to Debian, and I haven't hardly looked at anything else since.  I didn't say it was the One True Way.
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mi6a2lm

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« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2005, 04:08:49 am »

For the time you are spending trying to use mplayer, I would suggest having a dual-boot linux/WinXP.  Setting up a dual-boot system is much easier than what you have described going through just to get your mplayer working.  

In addition, and in regards to, your multimedia needs, you won't have to sift through smarmy 'RTFM'-type replies anymore.
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This is a very important lesson. You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end - which you can never afford to lose - with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be. - ADM James Stockdale

ZooT_aLLures

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« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2005, 04:45:32 am »

When you spin a winXP cd backwards you'll hear satan speaking, and even worse, when you spin it forward it installs winXP....
 
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Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed.

We all have some scar tissue that never lets us completely forget the intent of the adventure.

Leonidas the Younger

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« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2005, 10:57:56 am »

Zoot -

ROTFLMAO!! :) :)

mi6a2lm -

Using Windows for one's multimedia needs is wholly unnecesary. Not to mention counter productive to freedom - Windows is getting all DRMed up, and will soon be forcing people to choose between watching movies and having freedom.

-- Leonidas
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-- It may soon be time to say: "I plead the second."; are you ready?
-- What have you *DONE* for freedom today?
-- Collectives may exist under individualism, but individuals are not suffered to exist under collectivism.
-- I don't beg anyone for my freedom any more.  It isn't theirs to give me.  It's mine to take and to live. - Lightning.
-- Educated men are as much superior to uneducated men as the living are to the dead. - Aristotle

ZooT_aLLures

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« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2005, 11:18:06 am »

Leonidas,

We still have to admit, if one doesn't mind having folks peek through the keyhole in your bathroom or bedroom door, the windows stuff works first time everytime.....at least till it crashes :lol:  
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Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed.

We all have some scar tissue that never lets us completely forget the intent of the adventure.

snokrash257

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« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2005, 11:26:19 am »

Quote
Leonidas,

We still have to admit, if one doesn't mind having folks peek through the keyhole in your bathroom or bedroom door, the windows stuff works first time everytime.....at least till it crashes :lol:
Yep.  Or Windows Media Player screws up your sound card, while you're playing something, so that all you get is a high pitched loop for sound, and can't play anything until you reboot your computer.  
Try RTFM on that one--and good luck.  At least the linux community is willing to help you out.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2005, 11:26:41 am by snokrash257 »
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mi6a2lm

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« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2005, 02:13:24 pm »

Quote
Quote
Leonidas,

We still have to admit, if one doesn't mind having folks peek through the keyhole in your bathroom or bedroom door, the windows stuff works first time everytime.....at least till it crashes :lol:
Yep.  Or Windows Media Player screws up your sound card, while you're playing something, so that all you get is a high pitched loop for sound, and can't play anything until you reboot your computer.  
Try RTFM on that one--and good luck.  At least the linux community is willing to help you out.
Considering 8 out of the 10 distros I have don't even recognize my sound card (and let's not get into the recognizing the modem issue [zero - btw], or the aforementioned multimedia issue [did you turn SCSI off ... on? how 'bout DMA?], or ...

I'm a GNU/Linux user - but don't piss on my shoes and tell me it's raining.  
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This is a very important lesson. You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end - which you can never afford to lose - with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be. - ADM James Stockdale

Claire

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« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2005, 02:51:55 pm »

Quote
For the time you are spending trying to use mplayer, I would suggest having a dual-boot linux/WinXP.  Setting up a dual-boot system is much easier than what you have described going through just to get your mplayer working. 

In addition, and in regards to, your multimedia needs, you won't have to sift through smarmy 'RTFM'-type replies anymore.
I used to have W****s/Linux dual boots on an old desktop and old laptop and yes, used the W****s side exactly as you suggest.

The only reason my current (and currently defunct) laptop has Linux only is that I didn't have a working W*****s distro at the time I got it -- and it's too much of a &^%$#@! to add W. after Linux. Until the mplayer fiasco, I honestly hadn't needed W. for anything in six or seven months.

If I have to start OS installs all over again after solving the current hardware problems, that machine goes back to dual boot.

Indeed, my geek friends, I'd rather use all Linux and have for quite a while. But until a Linux distro makes multimedia much easier for a desktop user than it currently is, then W*****s still has its uses.


Hey, speaking of which ... I'm currently back to my borrowed W*****s laptop, since the Linux laptop went completely to heck this morning. My first thought was to work on the broken machine from one of the Linux LiveCD distros the Linux Fairy sent.

Good idea. Unfortunately, not one of them would bring up eth0. They each recognize my wireless card as a piece of hardware. But not one set it up correctly to function. I know the card, router, and DSL modem are okay, because they're what I'm using to talk to you now.

So, on an installed distro, I can add the correct info to the PCMCIA config files (thanks again to Plinker) to get the card recognized. But on a LiveCD distro ... am I just stuck?

I tried doing modprobes to load the correct driver (if driver is the correct term here). But no dice. The driver the card has been using is orinoco_cs. The driver all four LiveCD distros tried to use was prism2_cs.

Claire
« Last Edit: February 17, 2005, 02:52:40 pm by Claire »
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My life is my message. -- Gandhi

Claire

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« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2005, 02:58:05 pm »

Quote
In addition, and in regards to, your multimedia needs, you won't have to sift through smarmy 'RTFM'-type replies anymore.
FWIW, nobody around here ever gives the snide "RTFM!" type of answer, thank goodness.

But I do think that dedicated Linux users, in general, often don't realize how very little man pages convey to someone who's not a native speaker of Geek. At my level, step-by-step instructions are often needed. And that's not what man pages are designed for.

OTOH, when I do have a Linux problem, there's a lot more fast, clear help for it, both here and on the rest of the Net then there is for equivalent W*****s problems.

 :lol: "Help" for W*****s problems is pretty simple. It usually amounts to, "Sorry, you gotta reinstall the OS." Or better yet: "That version of Windows isn't supported any more. You've got to buy XP spyware if you want such-and-such to work."
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Just as the flattery of friends often leads us astray, so the insults of enemies often do us good. -- St. Augustine, Confessions, Book IX, Chapter 8


When faith ceases to be a challenge to the standards of polite society, it is no longer, or has not yet become, faith. -- Donald Spoto, Reluctant Saint:  The Life of Francis of Assisi


My life is my message. -- Gandhi

ZooT_aLLures

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« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2005, 02:07:18 pm »

Quote
"Help" for W*****s problems is pretty simple. It usually amounts to, "Sorry, you gotta reinstall the OS." Or better yet: "That version of Windows isn't supported any more. You've got to buy XP spyware if you want such-and-such to work."

Or the best I've ever heard,
Close all windows, reboot the computer, and try it again. :blink:  
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Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed.

We all have some scar tissue that never lets us completely forget the intent of the adventure.

Claire

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« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2005, 02:59:31 pm »

Quote
Or the best I've ever heard,
Close all windows, reboot the computer, and try it again. :blink:
What's even more scary ... that advice more-or-less works.

I'm still on a borrowed W*****s machine (though Debra just sent an emergency harddrive in a USB case to help me make an easy transition back to my Linux machine). I've had to "solve" errors by rebooting four times in the last 24 hours.

And "bingo!" Works every time.

Until the next error strikes, that is.

And until the cumulative effect of errors leads to the "reinstall OS" advice ...

Back to Linux as soon as I get past another deadline or two.
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Just as the flattery of friends often leads us astray, so the insults of enemies often do us good. -- St. Augustine, Confessions, Book IX, Chapter 8


When faith ceases to be a challenge to the standards of polite society, it is no longer, or has not yet become, faith. -- Donald Spoto, Reluctant Saint:  The Life of Francis of Assisi


My life is my message. -- Gandhi

Leonidas the Younger

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« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2005, 11:05:40 pm »

Quote
00:02:51 up 10 days, 12 min,  3 users,  load average: 0.67, 0.23, 0.08

That would have been well over a month, excepting for the simple fact of an odd power flicker :D

-- Leonidas
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-- It may soon be time to say: "I plead the second."; are you ready?
-- What have you *DONE* for freedom today?
-- Collectives may exist under individualism, but individuals are not suffered to exist under collectivism.
-- I don't beg anyone for my freedom any more.  It isn't theirs to give me.  It's mine to take and to live. - Lightning.
-- Educated men are as much superior to uneducated men as the living are to the dead. - Aristotle

Roy J. Tellason

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« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2005, 12:27:06 am »

Quote
Quote
00:02:51 up 10 days, 12 min,  3 users,  load average: 0.67, 0.23, 0.08

That would have been well over a month, excepting for the simple fact of an odd power flicker :D

-- Leonidas
Shoot,  if we're gonna go there this box I'm typing on is 199 days,  2:45.  I don't expect it'll continue that with this setup (no UPS) once the spring thunderstorms get here,  though.

And it's only that low because of hardware upgrades.  I really should get the sound card out of the server and into this box,  one of these days,  and am looking at some HD upgrades somewhere in here pretty shortly,  too.  Oh well.
 
« Last Edit: February 20, 2005, 12:28:15 am by Roy J. Tellason »
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