The Mental Militia Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Yer Own ISP  (Read 3708 times)

Junker

  • Guest
Yer Own ISP
« on: December 16, 2004, 09:35:02 am »

As in, how do you do it?

1. Ya' need a box, prolly a standard IBMPClone.
2. Prolly running Linux & it's netware
3. Ya' need a 24-hr wire & associated interface card.

1 & 2 seem normal. Mostly we already got that.

But 3. What's that? What's it cost? Who're the providers of the wire that connects to the net? Or radio/satellite?

Anyone know about that stuff?

And seein' as how this is Jabbut Land now, anything on licencing?
 
Logged

ZooT_aLLures

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7956
    • http://www.thepriceofliberty.org
Yer Own ISP
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2004, 10:03:34 am »

From what I understand there is no liscencing requirement........yet.

One thing I will note though is that one must acquire a "resellable" (ie: expensive) internet connection....to be legit.
You'll need a domain name if indeed you wish to offer "real" e-mail, and you'll need DNS service so your users have something to point their browsers at.

One "could" use NAT if indeed one were to operate at a hobby level and made it clear to users that not all services and/or applications would function over this connection(some games come to mind) otherwise one would need a block of "legal" Ip addresses to allocate to users, and become a router jockey.

The important thing to note is that whoever your getting your connection from is probably offering internet access themselves, and that you'll become their competition, and therefore they're not going to be liable to provide any sort of technical assistance in any way shape or form.
But then again.......just tell any ISP that you're using linux, and see if they don't run away screaming about not supporting anything but windows*LoL*
Logged
Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed.

We all have some scar tissue that never lets us completely forget the intent of the adventure.

Occupant No-name

  • Guest
Yer Own ISP
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2004, 12:03:19 pm »

This sounds interesting. I just wish I knew what all the jargon means.  
Logged

rockchucker

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2185
  • ... death awaits you all with nasty pointy teeth!
    • FreedomSight
Yer Own ISP
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2004, 12:14:37 pm »

There are hosting providers who offer reseller accounts. That'd be the easiest way to do it.

Or you can rent space in a server farm. One company which specializes in this is Rackspace.com. With these arrangements, you can provide your own box, or lease one from them.

The pros of the above are the other company deals with air conditioning, power, and bandwidth.

Otherwise, you can lease a fat connection of your choosing from a Telco. Business DSL, T1, OC3 ... how much money do you want to spend? Locate your server in your basement, or a small office, wherever.
Logged
... it is poor civic hygiene to install technologies that could someday
facilitate a police state. -- Bruce Schneier

Put a little birdhouse in your soul. -- TMBG

FreedomSight

ZooT_aLLures

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7956
    • http://www.thepriceofliberty.org
Yer Own ISP
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2004, 12:17:48 pm »

Occupant,

You keep working on your homebrewed windows system and you'll learn soon enough*L*
None of this stuff is real difficult, but instead getting everything working together can get a bit confusing......
As far as building a windows based ISP goes though, you'd be best off to skip even thinking about using 95/98/ME and head straight into NT server 4.0 or one of it's later equivalents.......as win95/98/ME were never intended to be a real multi-user OS and thus the implementations of the goodies required are weak at best and nonexistant at worst and could require some VERY expensive software add-ons....
Logged
Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed.

We all have some scar tissue that never lets us completely forget the intent of the adventure.

Junker

  • Guest
Yer Own ISP
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2004, 03:34:12 pm »

I was thinking personal ISPs that our type of individual would have maximum control over, and as a side issue, could host friendly sites. Also, these would be nodes in a multiple proxying network whose low use would assure fast response.

Now, collocated servers offer full service and full control of the software environment of the server. But, allow intervention or intercept at the location. That to a degree is fine when using multi-proxies. But, ultimately, all keys and traffic become exploitable.

Then

> ...Telco. Business DSL, T1, OC3 ... how much money do you want to spend?

'Want' is zero of course. In order for me to get a phone wire will cost ~$25,000 to my gulch. I presume then, the same for any other wire, even if at all possible.

But I suppose that's an answer...the telco monopoly of your choice has the wires. And laying new wire is expensive. Then somewhere you'll also be paying for bandwidth on the net. All of that is built in to the standard charges for a normal ISDN line with DSL.

Which I suppose leads me to radio/satellite so new wire does not have to be installed. Radio-to-radio allows each node to bear the costs acceptable to the node. Satellite means paying the satellite for bandwidth, but is the only operating high-bandwidth, global network feeding into the net.

Next step is then talking to satellite companies & getting equipment types, costs, and bandwidth prices.
 
Logged

analog

  • Guest
Yer Own ISP
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2004, 03:59:54 pm »

I think another important decision is how to get the access to your customers.  Say you figure out how to get the fat pipe into the router into your basement?  Are your customers close enough (apt building), that you could run CAT5 to them?  More than 300feet though, and you will be looking for some other means.  802.11b and 802.11g can get decent line of site range, but when setup in an omni-directional setup aren't good for more than 300 feet.  There is 802.11e, but it is heavily regulated by the FCC, and equipment is expensive.

You could use regular copper telephone lines and have your customers use standard dialup modems.  I don't know what the distance limitations are on CAT3 telelphone cable, but I am sure it can go further than CAT5's 300ft limitation.

Another option, if you know anything about RF technologies is using Coax.  That is what the company I work for does.  We provide internet access to apartment complexes.  We either put in a T1 line ($400-600/mo), or a high speed DSL line ($200-300/mo).  Those prices are for lines in a big town. Out in the sticks, if you can get it, it will be much more expensive (Thus, the $25,000 number you quoted) In the "HeadEnd" on the property, we have a router, a linux server, and a CMTS (Cable Modem Termination System).  With the proper amps in the loops out to your customers, Coax can carry FAT bandwidth (30Mbps per channel!).  And, it can do it over quite long distances, using those amps.  Of course, all that RF technology requires knowing waveforms, and blah blah.. I don't even try to understand what the cable guys are telling me when we are installing this stuff.

Getting the fat pipe into your basement is really the easy part.  Sattelite is an option, albeit expensive relative to the amount of bandwidth you can get.  But, in many rural areas, it is your only option.  If you are fairly close to a good size town, you can get a microwave feed from a distant hilltop (10+ miles).  I haven't done much pricing on that, but I think it is more reasonable than sattelite.

Anyway, THIS is a great idea for a gulching money making idea.  People might want to get away from society, but the Internet is so important, and allows easy and reasonably anonymous communication (when done right;)), that even in a gulch, there will be good demand.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2004, 04:01:18 pm by analog »
Logged

rockchucker

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2185
  • ... death awaits you all with nasty pointy teeth!
    • FreedomSight
Yer Own ISP
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2004, 07:08:45 pm »

Quote
Getting the fat pipe into your basement is really the easy part.  Sattelite is an option, albeit expensive relative to the amount of bandwidth you can get.  But, in many rural areas, it is your only option.  If you are fairly close to a good size town, you can get a microwave feed from a distant hilltop (10+ miles).  I haven't done much pricing on that, but I think it is more reasonable than sattelite.
Couple things to think about. My understanding is that satellite comm has high latency, and thus sucks for many internet tasks. It would definitely suck for ssh. Part of the question then gets to what services you want to offer your customers.

If you're way out in the styx, then point-to-point microwave might be the thing. There's also point-to-point laser. But I don't know the details of that stuff. However, weather can then be an issue for connectivity. I know it depends, to an extent, on frequency -- at least with microwave. Water absorbs microwaves, so a dense fog might kill your signal. However, either of these are interceptible.

There are some other community wireless things out there. I don't know what Ricochet, for example uses -- some sort of microwave radio. Also interceptible. Same for the 802.11 series of wireless connections.

And with anything you do, you'll at some point have to hook into someone else's network as a gateway to the whole internet.

If you want non-exploitable, then you need end-to-end encryption, regardless of what you buy. So at that point, why not go with a co-located server? Encrypt all the disk volumes and the swap space. Of course, that still leaves someone cracking into the box and reading memory directly, if they know how.
Logged
... it is poor civic hygiene to install technologies that could someday
facilitate a police state. -- Bruce Schneier

Put a little birdhouse in your soul. -- TMBG

FreedomSight

UnstructuredAgain

  • Guest
Yer Own ISP
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2004, 08:10:06 pm »

Satellite will be cut, as soon as W. or the next guy thinks necessary.  Earth based would be best.  My opinion
Logged

ZooT_aLLures

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7956
    • http://www.thepriceofliberty.org
Yer Own ISP
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2004, 01:22:38 am »

At some point one must decide if indeed they even want the "entire internet" or instead are looking for something a bit more streamlined......

 
Logged
Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed.

We all have some scar tissue that never lets us completely forget the intent of the adventure.

Junker

  • Guest
Yer Own ISP
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2004, 02:40:40 am »

rockchucker> If you want non-exploitable, then you need end-to-end encryption, regardless of what you buy. So at that point, why not go with a co-located server? Encrypt all the disk volumes and the swap space. Of course, that still leaves someone cracking into the box and reading memory directly, if they know how.

Thank you, rockchucker. That seems to get to the center and end up allowing the co-located server. All commo is VPN, end-to-end tunnelling. Maintenance is from whatever private hook-up your gulch node has, again via VPN.

Next then is finding el-cheapo co-locator services, choosing a good rack box, and figuring out the software mix. I assume that with a co-located box with base Linux loaded, one can log in as root, load any other software, and reform the whole system as one likes. And possibly, can or will they install a hardware VPN tunneller?
- - -

ZooT_aLLures> At some point one must decide if indeed they even want the "entire internet" or instead are looking for something a bit more streamlined......

For general purpose, I'd suspect entire net would be the goal. For an outlying series of nodes in the boonies with, say, some WiFi or other radio base, reduced capability might fit. HF packet servers are running, but the bandwidth is significantly limited, but still usable.
Logged

ZooT_aLLures

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7956
    • http://www.thepriceofliberty.org
Yer Own ISP
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2004, 11:51:27 am »

Junker,

Quote
Next then is finding el-cheapo co-locator services, choosing a good rack box, and figuring out the software mix. I assume that with a co-located box with base Linux loaded, one can log in as root, load any other software, and reform the whole system as one likes. And possibly, can or will they install a hardware VPN tunneller?
From working with "dedicated servers" in the past, most don't really want to give you "root", but will if asked(probably via ssh like "Mindterm"), yet if you screw their system to the point that you can't access it through whatever shell they provide up it's gonna' cost "you" to get it straightened out.(type once, read three times, and then press enter 8^P )

As far as adding any hardware, many want to charge you not only for the hardware and initial setup, but also an additional ongoing maintanance fee.(I remember being told that the fee was $20 extra a month for an extra 512M of ram)

Although it's fairly certain that in todays competitive market place one could probably negotiate for any desired upgrades at the time of the creation of any service contract.(particularly if one were willing to use the leverage of a large "prepayment" into the mix)...

I've heard mention though of some freedom oriented colocation services being offered.....maybe someone else here can offer you some info on the "who, what, and how much" on this.........after all......it pays to deal with those of like mind

 
Logged
Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed.

We all have some scar tissue that never lets us completely forget the intent of the adventure.

Junker

  • Guest
Yer Own ISP
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2004, 01:25:18 pm »

Thanks, Zoot. Good stuff. And I cry to the heavens: "Why is it always so complicated and full of cheats!" But, that is a normal rhetorical rant. Good though is the idea of fellow travellers. Maybe the Az ISP would be good to start. They run a good and inexpensive service, are Libertarians, and on LRT discuss.
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up