The Mental Militia Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5   Go Down

Author Topic: MMORPG rePKL  (Read 8335 times)

ZooT_aLLures

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7956
    • http://www.thepriceofliberty.org
Re: MMORPG rePKL
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2011, 08:33:48 pm »

Logged
Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed.

We all have some scar tissue that never lets us completely forget the intent of the adventure.

Adventurer, Explorer, Inquiring Mind.

  • Given up.
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3222
Re: MMORPG rePKL
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2011, 01:29:08 am »

Most mmo's rip offs of WoW?

By the gods of darkness, man, where in blazes have you been?  WoW is a ripoff of Warhammer Fantasy Tabletop setting.  And if you want to call ripoffs, WoW is a bad ripoff of Dark Age of Camelot (and Mythic were idiots to kill that game only to replace it with the lukewarmly received Warhammer Online, which was gorgeous but silly compared to DAOC.)  Not to mention they were all ripoffs of Everquest, and before that, The Realm and Ultima Online.  But what do I know?

The only thing WoW truly has is the marketing muscle of Blizzard's Warhammer inspired (read: pretty much plagiarized with different names for the culprits) Warcraft universe.

Sorry for the outburst folks but I get sick of hearing people actually say (and probably believe) that everything is based on World of Warcraft.  It pisses me off almost as much as noticing that Blizzard, in their eternal quest for cash (not a bad quest, mind you) dropped some NICE features from Starcraft II just so they could complete "Facebook integration."

Like I needed any more e-peen features besides the ladder ranking?  Sheesh, one has to wonder how much seed money was donated by the CIA, KGB or NSA to get that "feature" put in, to replace local network play (yes, that's what they dropped to get Facebook into your gaming privacy.  Blech.)






As for doing your game as a MUD, that is a great idea, PKL.

Oh, and for the rich kid vs poor kid issue, don't fret mate, just have some quest gear that is truly worth it, so that the rich kids can blow oodles of dough to buy similar gear, while other players EARN theirs.

Warhammer Online did this, and did it well.  Dungeons and Dragons Online also did it extremely well, including doing the best example of a cash shop (so called "free to play") game I have ever seen implemented.  It is also not nearly as grindy and boring as most asian MMO's.  Me, I haven't seen a great game engine since Dragon Realms, but the operators charge way too much for the best MUD I've ever played commercially.
Logged
Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car.
Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall, torque is how far you take the wall with you.

gaurdduck

  • Guest
Re: MMORPG rePKL
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2011, 05:26:04 am »

I actually have a series of games planned. It was my idea and my friends agreed, that since we're ammeters at programming, that we should start with a Visual Novel, then do a few MUDs, and progress to have the last one be a fully 2.5D, game based on Economics wherein you could wander a unprecedented masterpiece map.

I don't recall if I mentioned it before, but I was thinking of selling T-shirts and coffee mugs of game characters and such... Also, "Official Cosplay" accessories and clothes modeled on the game including quest items...

The games would be free to play, the merch would be the money-maker.  This business model works very well for Megatokyo.
Logged

Adventurer, Explorer, Inquiring Mind.

  • Given up.
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3222
Re: MMORPG rePKL
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2011, 02:16:44 am »

I thought Megatokyo was a comic strip?

Oh well, I'm just here to k1ll z0mb1ez d00d!  :)
Logged
Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car.
Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall, torque is how far you take the wall with you.

ZooT_aLLures

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7956
    • http://www.thepriceofliberty.org
Re: MMORPG rePKL
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2011, 10:24:10 am »

Well selling merchandise and business models are nice to talk about, but they take a back seat to producing a product on which to base that business model and merchandise.

Logged
Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed.

We all have some scar tissue that never lets us completely forget the intent of the adventure.

Adventurer, Explorer, Inquiring Mind.

  • Given up.
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3222
Re: MMORPG rePKL
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2011, 02:32:54 am »

Well selling merchandise and business models are nice to talk about, but they take a back seat to producing a product on which to base that business model and merchandise.



Oh well, I'm still just here to k1ll z0mb1ez d00d!   :mellow:
Logged
Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car.
Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall, torque is how far you take the wall with you.

gaurdduck

  • Guest
Re: MMORPG rePKL
« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2011, 11:11:03 pm »

Well selling merchandise and business models are nice to talk about, but they take a back seat to producing a product on which to base that business model and merchandise.



Indeed...

I'm pretty far along writing the scenarios for the first game...

Also designing the hell outta it and working on the conlangs for different regions in the game world. I have 4 so far. I'm thinking 6 oughtta be about right...
Logged

Adventurer, Explorer, Inquiring Mind.

  • Given up.
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3222
Re: MMORPG rePKL
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2011, 03:57:42 am »

No offense to ye' Zoot, but have you checked out the massive loot that the eastern asian videogames (which are largely plotless, pointless, poorly translated, misbegotten bullshit java browser games at best, and at worst 3d engine bloatware messes with cash shops attached) pull in?  I've talked to guys playing various of these games, and some kids out of Singapore are blowing more than 1k in USD/FRN to actually "stay at the top of the player list"... I kid you not.

Wow.  And I considered blowing 15 bucks on a subscription based game to be overkill except on the best of games!  Of which, mind you, I have not seen one in ages, since in all I have to bow to a king... even an NPC one.  Blech.

You may consider watching how Dungeons and Dragons Online did the cash shop concept.  You have an otherwise mature 3d online game, it is clean, they figured out how to avoid the massive lag fests that occur when 50 people to 500 people are all spawn camping that one rare drop or "unique" drop (of which 50 players already have a "unique" version)...

Their cash shop, in case you are curious, consists of extra feature increments and, most importantly, of access to new maps, new levels and new map packs, quests, etc.  Most are actually quite good.  I despise 4th edition D&D because it became a MMOG oriented rule set with the emphasis being on damage dealing capacity rather than versatility and ability to be relevant to the plotline and have spells memorized that might sidestep certain restrictions the plotline might inflict upon fighters and thieves.  (Look up a 1st, 2nd and 3rd edition D&D mage and compare to a 4th.)

I don't recall seeing much real life swag when I was playing, but I doubt you can't get a few tshirts from it now.  Checking that out is left as an exercise for readers of this thread.
Logged
Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car.
Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall, torque is how far you take the wall with you.

ZooT_aLLures

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7956
    • http://www.thepriceofliberty.org
Re: MMORPG rePKL
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2011, 05:05:01 am »

Quote
No offense to ye' Zoot, but have you checked out the massive loot that the eastern asian videogames (which are largely plotless, pointless, poorly translated, misbegotten bullshit java browser games at best, and at worst 3d engine bloatware messes with cash shops attached) pull in?  I've talked to guys playing various of these games, and some kids out of Singapore are blowing more than 1k in USD/FRN to actually "stay at the top of the player list"... I kid you not.
Yeah............but they have "something" out there being played........even if other folks elsewhere think it's crap
Logged
Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed.

We all have some scar tissue that never lets us completely forget the intent of the adventure.

Adventurer, Explorer, Inquiring Mind.

  • Given up.
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3222
Re: MMORPG rePKL
« Reply #39 on: October 26, 2011, 04:50:42 am »

Quote
No offense to ye' Zoot, but have you checked out the massive loot that the eastern asian videogames (which are largely plotless, pointless, poorly translated, misbegotten bullshit java browser games at best, and at worst 3d engine bloatware messes with cash shops attached) pull in?  I've talked to guys playing various of these games, and some kids out of Singapore are blowing more than 1k in USD/FRN to actually "stay at the top of the player list"... I kid you not.
Yeah............but they have "something" out there being played........even if other folks elsewhere think it's crap

"Something" being played is right.  But honestly, the only people being played are the cash paying players.  I can see some of those browser based games being a time sink if you're bored and trying to make the time pass at work, presuming you're out of good books while waiting for a server wipe, but seriously, to blow 1000 bucks a month on something that I would have coded when I was a first year comp sci student... in high school, at that... is to presume that people really have more cash than they know what to do with.  I failed to get that impression the last time I talked finances with some of those guys and girls.

All I'm saying is that there are plenty of people who are burning through insane amounts of cash to play what are essentially unfinished / beta / alpha / pre-beta "games."  So you wouldn't be hard pressed to enter the market if you came up with a good idea and a decent implementation.  People are even paying to play MUDs these days, and not even complex MUDs like the old ones you and I might be thinking of.  So yeah, there's lots of competition, but very few, "well done" games, with good engines and actual content.  (Some of the ones that are accepting cash for in game items and real life swag, aren't even stable code!  Heh, the only stable code is the cash shop.  I could begin listing names of various asian MMO's to begin with, but I don't want to be guilty of trash talking a commercial enterprise.  :)  Feel free to burn a few hours or days of your life to test out my theory, but don't put cash on the line unless you're sure you'll get your money's worth.)


However, PKL, I'm with Zoot and the other coders on this one.  If you don't design the engine, designing maps and content is all fine and dandy, but what makes or breaks a good game, is a workable, bug free engine, and workable, bug free content.  You come up with something like that, and you'll have beaten a large portion of your competition solely on that.

I'm telling you this because I have been where you are, way back when, and I let the artist run the show, and we ended up with a project that much reminded me of Duke Nukem Forever mixed with Daikatana.  Great artwork, good design, and never ending shifts in feature sets, thus resulting in a never completed engine.  And yes, if ye be curious, we screwed the pooch on that one.  Last time we worked on that project was 2001, I believe.  Your primary goal ought to be to lay down design and functionality goals, and discuss them with whoever your coder is.  Make sure that the code monkey is on board.  If he tells you he can or can't do certain things, or that he'll need time, you need to iron out WHAT you want for your final release project.  Granted that will change as time goes on, but if you fail to decide together on what needs doing and set some engine goals (around which your graphics and sound guys and girls will tailor the artwork, maps, skins, models, etc...)  Examples of a well run mix of arts and code guys is Raven Software and their earlier titles up through Quake 4.  An example of a well run code focused group is idSoftware.


An example of a simple x,y coordinate system in your program involves using a matrix.  You can find multiple ways of doing this using different programming languages.  You can use linked lists, you can go and OOP it, etc.  In general this would be a two dimensional array.  If you intend on adding 3d coordinates for real life like locations, involves adding a third coordinate axis, which will make things significantly more pain in the ass.  If you are planning on doing it MUD style with "rooms" this will make your life a little easier, since you won't have to actively track the players and check collisions.  One thing you may consider is creating a custom MUD client or scripting for one of the ones available.  If you intend to do it the way you showed that early snippet, may I suggest you use a visual grid combat system, since most people are used to "easy" and "easy to use" and will probably find speed reading to be a deficient skill, in newtimers and oldtimers alike.  In reality, if you intend to have a 3d locale, you need some form of visualization to help the player get his or her bearings more quickly than they would having to scan for key words they've learned.

From a coder perspective, I would suggest that when you first start coding your engine, if you start from scratch, you use placeholders instead of hard coding your creatures.  For example, where your draconian/lizardite critter checks to see if your player is dead or asleep, you can simply have it print out "creature_name[0]" where you can fill the array of creatures with more authentic descriptions, and content later.  (Adjust syntax as per the language you use, of course, at the beginning, simply put something like "intro_creature" into the array so that you can see if the name pops up in places where it doesn't belong.  Call these stubs, when you set up things like these.  That doesn't mean the intro creature can't be named narrator or something else altogether, depending on the purpose you give it in the game context.)   If you build it modular, you can then alter things by simply changing values in your array, even setting it up to be read from a list.  In reality, there's a ton of stuff you can do, and now I'm getting tempted to join in, since if this winter gets as nasty up here in the northwest as I believe it might, I will have a LOT of spare time.  I have some other ideas for a game, nowadays, but I'll have to finish the design docs first and we can chat about it after I finish my other winter projects.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 04:57:34 am by khyeron »
Logged
Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car.
Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall, torque is how far you take the wall with you.

ZooT_aLLures

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7956
    • http://www.thepriceofliberty.org
Re: MMORPG rePKL
« Reply #40 on: October 27, 2011, 05:03:46 am »

Quote
However, PKL, I'm with Zoot and the other coders on this one.
Well maybe we're not in the same camp, as the camp I'm in thinks that getting pixels flashing reigns, whether you use some prefab engine or write your own.
As you've said, there's an awful lot of really bad games out there making big dollars................and I'm sure there's a lot of really good ones sitting in corners still, and forever more to be in the paper stages.

You don't HAVE to reinvent the wheel.............all you have to do is find an interesting way to use it........and then do the important part..........get it out there.

Logged
Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed.

We all have some scar tissue that never lets us completely forget the intent of the adventure.

Adventurer, Explorer, Inquiring Mind.

  • Given up.
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3222
Re: MMORPG rePKL
« Reply #41 on: October 27, 2011, 01:45:04 pm »

Quote
However, PKL, I'm with Zoot and the other coders on this one.
Well maybe we're not in the same camp, as the camp I'm in thinks that getting pixels flashing reigns, whether you use some prefab engine or write your own.
As you've said, there's an awful lot of really bad games out there making big dollars................and I'm sure there's a lot of really good ones sitting in corners still, and forever more to be in the paper stages.

You don't HAVE to reinvent the wheel.............all you have to do is find an interesting way to use it........and then do the important part..........get it out there.



Indeed.  However, also don't forget to make sure your team is not going to flake out or let you down.  Also check to see if anyone in the group has dictator/authoritarian syndrome.  You want everyone on the same page, or at least on the same book, but you don't want a total slave driver, unless you're Steve Jobs or Steve Ballmer.

This is important since you don't want someone changing specs on the rest of you without letting you know, and you ending up working on something else altogether.  That's another way a good game never leaves the old paper stage.  Been there, done that.
Logged
Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car.
Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall, torque is how far you take the wall with you.

Klapton Isgod

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4193
  • Long-Haired, Over-Fed, Leaping Gnome
Re: MMORPG rePKL
« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2011, 02:09:05 pm »

Games are very much like other entertainment media / arts.  The really good stuff doesn't get the best sales, and the biggest money-makers are complete shit.  I'm going to crank up some Justin Beeber while I watch the most recent episode of Jersey Shore now.
Logged
"I got things under control, that's why people call me an extremist.  I'm autonomous.  I understand that I declare my independence every day."  Ted Nugent

"It is the conservative laissez- fairist, the man who puts all the guns and all the decision-making power into the hands of the central government and then says, 'Limit yourself'; it is he who is truly the impractical utopian."  Murray Rothbard

ZooT_aLLures

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7956
    • http://www.thepriceofliberty.org
Re: MMORPG rePKL
« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2011, 05:13:12 am »

Quote
Indeed.  However, also don't forget to make sure your team is not going to flake out or let you down.

Er uh..............is this an experienced "team" or just a few young folks "talking" about making a video game?
Logged
Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed.

We all have some scar tissue that never lets us completely forget the intent of the adventure.

Adventurer, Explorer, Inquiring Mind.

  • Given up.
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3222
Re: MMORPG rePKL
« Reply #44 on: October 28, 2011, 01:10:36 pm »

Sounds like "a few young folks."  Now, with that being said, integrity in a project like that will come regardless of age.  You either got it, or you do not.  Simple as that.  At least he won't have to deal with a partner not realizing that the guy he's doing the work for is stringing him along, stealing our code, and not intending to pay.


And Klapton, I got some examples to break your rule there.  DAOC, Anarchy Online, all the Diablo games (have no reason to suspect that D3 will suck), almost all the Raven Games, just about everything idSoftware puts out, Borderlands (my god, that game did fantastic, there's GIRLS playing that, and I don't mean quake girls, either, I mean sweet, darling RPG playing girls, and they're telling me what rare guns they found last time they played, etc.  Now if only I could get them into some real guns and some range time. :)  )
Logged
Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car.
Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall, torque is how far you take the wall with you.
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5   Go Up