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[Silver]

What I did and do is my business but it was not confined to posting or griping.  If there ever comes a day when speaking truth accomplishes nothing more than bringing down the wrath of the enforcers I'll recite my accomplishments and compare them to anyone here.  I'm not concerned about that reckoning.

What I won't do and have never done is put on a government costume and imagine that the laws of morality have changed.  What I have done is renounce the use of violence and coercion to achieve my personal goals.  I will employ violence only to protect my life and property and that of those few people I cherish against agression.  That means I won't stuff my craw full of taxpayer loot, even when it is offered freely, even on the most pleasant and delightful of terms.  I will make my way in this world by voluntary trade with other free men. 

The Oathkeepers claim to be an "association of currently serving military, veterans, peace officers, and firefighters."  With the possible exception of those few veterans who will not be asked to obey new orders, then every oathkeeper, every day, violates one of their own "10 orders we will not obey."  "We will NOT obey any orders to confiscate the property of the American people, " is a damned lie.  Active-duty oathkeepers quite literaly make their living on confiscated property.  They may not have the stomach to do the stealing face-to-face, but every thin dime in their pocket was taken by force from a productive citizen.

Modern war and oppression are carried out by a long chain of individuals, each doing his or her job meticulously while simultaneously refusing to look at the end results of his or her work. There is no state or corporate evil that is not the result of personal sinfulness.

Rev. Emmanuel Charles McCarthy

To the extent that the Oathkeepers are an association of currently serving military, police, and firefighters then their ranks are filled with soldiers occupying foreign nations or militarized enforcers occupying American cities and towns.  Each and every one does their job meticulously.  Their true allegiance is to their comrades, not to the constitution, which the commander the OK's happily obeyed correctly characterized a "just a goddamned peace of paper."

To expect people who must twist their moral compass off its hinges in order to make their daily bread to suddenly develop a functioning concience when there is blood in the streets is folly.  When the Catholics under Father McCarthy's care were ordered to murder hundreds of thousands of women and children, including entire convents of Catholic nuns, neither they nor their chaplain objected.  Only after he had walked through the rubble and confronted the results of his own actions did he realize his errors.

It will be the same today.  Oathkeepers will swear their mighty oaths, but they will still drop the bombs, rape the children, shoot the women, burn the villages, steal the money, take the guns, confiscate the hoarded food, and above all else obey their orders and support their comrades.  Perhaps a few will realize in hindsight the enormity of their crimes.  But any that presently possess the intellect and self-awarness to contemplate the utter immorality of their actions have already laid down their arms and walked away from the madness.

Elias, I respect you and have read your writings for many years.  Your efforts on behalf of freedom are many and praiseworthy.  If you feel that working on the Oathkeepers is a sound strategy, it is not my place to question your thinking.  I will point out that you are a perfect example of the few who realized after the fact what was right and true, took off your costume, and walked away.  You make your living as a free man and not a tax eater.  An army of like-minded folk would be formidable indeed.

To the extent that the "strategy" is to gently lead Oathkeepers to take an honest look in the mirror, the program may have some utility.  But that strategy will be effective only to the extent that it causes Oathkeepers to strip off their costumes and renounce violence as a way of life.  In other words, it may thin the ranks of oppressors, and particularly the enforcers.  That is why the government mouthpieces are squawking.  But when the bayonets are fixed, they will be used to stir the guts of women and children, oaths to the contrary.

Peace,

Silver

[gaurdduck]

Some argue that we should embrace those who are beginning to realize what is going on.  I'll embrace any one of them - after they quit their job and find a way to make a living that doesn't involve taking taxpayer loot or killing people as SOP.

[/end quote]

*arms open wide waiting for my hug*  I did not like what Bush did but I had no idea about what is really going on. I think my head was up the arse of the Ostrich in front of me! I loved my own four walls and to each other, his own. I still will not carry my neighbor, I might pick him up and give him a red pill, but each must walk his own. I don't remember the first red pill I took... but im sure it was handed to me. I have lots of red pills to share with my fellows. One sheeple at a time. And for the record, I sure do miss that big screen!

"Why oh why, didn't I take the blue pill?!" ~evil traitorous scum-bag

I don't do pills, but my first glass of red herbal tea was given to me by an article about pot written by John Silviera.
It just made sense. It is just a plant after all.

I, for one, think that Oath Keepers is a brilliant idea, and the charges of hypocrisy come from people who don't understand the strategy.

Just take a look at the "10 Orders We Will Not Obey"

http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2009/03/03/declaration-of-orders-we-will-not-obey/

1. We will NOT obey any order to disarm the American people.

2. We will NOT obey any order to conduct warrantless searches of the American people, their homes, vehicles, papers, or effects -- such as warrantless house-to house searches for weapons or persons.

3. We will NOT obey any order to detain American citizens as “unlawful enemy combatants� or to subject them to trial by military tribunal.

4. We will NOT obey orders to impose martial law or a “state of emergency� on a state, or to enter with force into a state, without the express consent and invitation of that state’s legislature and governor.

... and so on.


The beauty of this list is that promising NOT to obey hypothetical orders to disarm the American people, confiscate their property, and put them in concentration camps puts the "anti-OathKeepers" (notably the SPLC and the elements of the Department of Homeland Security who want to brand everybody and their cousin as an "extremist") in the position of defending the indefensible.   "Um... what difference does it make if cops and soldiers promise not to round up American citizens and blockade American cities?  Surely you don't think that that would *ever* be a good idea?"

It doesn't stop there, of course.   Several of those "10 orders" have indeed been issued (and obeyed) in recent memory, under the Clinton, Bush, and Obama administrations, with disastrous results.  Some of those orders are not just issued from time to time, but are Standard Operating Procedure in the War on Drugs, and other wars.

I think things will get interesting when people who promise not to obey "bad" orders put 2 and 2 together and realize that such orders are not always hypothetical, and don't only come from Democrats.  IMHO, it is better if they come to that realization themselves.    Having the OK organization take an official position such as Mr. Grigg seems to be recommending risks becoming "just another advocacy group".



(disclaimer - I am not an OathKeeper,  but I did join the military when I was young and foolish, and got out while the getting was good.)

This is pretty much how I see it and why I like the organization despite not caring a whit about the Constitution.

Like Silver, though, I do wonder how many will 'keep their oath' when TSHTF (in the common usage). I suppose the answer is, like most things, 'We'll see.'

I also generally like the organization. I would have been a member if I had been allowed
to join the Marines when I tried to in High School. I had medical issues and couldn't pass
the physical. My Brother was kept out of the Airforce for very similar reasons. I have a
minor bone deformity, and he can't see well without his glasses. Now though, I would
not join for a million dollars. Even if I could. Forgive me if I stepped on any toes, it is
in my nature to question everything.

[freewoman]

I would like to reiterate one important point:  Oath Keepers was started in March of 2009.  Last March, folks.  Not even a year ago.  I find it difficult to believe that the Oath Keepers organization is responsible for events that happened before it was created.  Or that the Oath Keepers organization is responsible for the actions of everyone who ever took an oath to protect and defend the Constitution.  Oath Keepers is a voluntary association.  I agree that we'll have to wait and see how the members respond in a crisis.  But that's true for anyone.

[2ndA]

Some people are not complaining that OK is responsible per se.  they are griping that it was not created at the time they think it should have been.  But then they are also griping about the fact it is created by men and women who did and do serve this nation in an official capacity.  As such, it really would seem to not matter when it was created since they'd still be bitching about it.

[Bluelinegirl]

Oath Keepers Membership
You do NOT have to be an official member to take part in our activities or to help us spread the message.  Official membership is optional.  Members receive a membership certificate suitable for framing, a membership card, an outreach materials package, and other benefits. Membership is open to anyone (though our focus is on military, reserves, National Guard, police, fire-fighter and veterans, those who are not current or prior service can still be an Oath Keeper – as a citizen who supports our mission).

Any American feeling the call of duty to support and defend the Constitution can join.

'I pledge Allegiance, to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation, under God, indivisible with Liberty and Justice for All.'

[freewoman]

Technically speaking, Silver is correct.  Taxation is theft.  The military exists due to taxation.  Therefore, it can be extrapolated that the military is illegal.  From a pragmatic viewpoint, however, one ends up slapping down others before they have the opportunity to gain a similar level of consciousness, and then do something about it.  The "10 Orders" are threads of consciousness that are being woven into the fabric of the mindset of the military and LEO constituency.  This consciousness then has the opportunity to grow. 

I have read a lot of the testimonies posted on the OK website.  I have gone through the forum and commentaries for each state and the D.C., as listed on the website.  After several hours of reading, I can say that the "10 Orders" meme is taking effect.  People who have already awakened--mostly former serving military who echo the words of Steve Mason (paraphrasing here--can't find the exact quote on the fly!):  "Old soldiers find out too late whom they have really served"--are encouraging others to follow suit.  Other individuals are coming to similar realizations. 

The raising of consciousness is not always a rapid or simple process.  To dismiss the entire idea because it hasn't come to a high enough level is a bit premature.  Give it some time.

In the end, each individual comes to his or her own interpretation of everything.  No one has ever said that everyone on TMM has to agree with Oath Keepers.  To label someone negatively because they disagree is not appropriate.

BTW, I do support Oath Keepers, but I do not pledge allegiance to the flag.  However, that's a topic for other threads, which have already been started (see the Freedom's Spirit part of the forum).

[Bluelinegirl]

Freewoman, I do not believe it is off topic as I meant to say that we all took an Oath, a Pledge of Allegiance, whether to our current flag or one representing what we believe America was meant to be. As to owing an Allegiance to 'The Republic,' 19 generations of my family have shed sweat and blood for her, and thats an Oath I am proud to keep.

[WWalker]

One must make a distinction between an Oath Taker and an Oath Keeper.

Only an educated Oath Taker can become an Oath Keeper.
 
Enter, Oath Keepers, the organization.
Anyone is welcome to participate (or not) in our mission to "reach, teach, and inspire" all Oath Takers to become Oath Keepers.

[Jarel]

What I did and do is my business but it was not confined to posting or griping.  If there ever comes a day when speaking truth accomplishes nothing more than bringing down the wrath of the enforcers I'll recite my accomplishments and compare them to anyone here.  I'm not concerned about that reckoning.

What I won't do and have never done is put on a government costume and imagine that the laws of morality have changed.  What I have done is renounce the use of violence and coercion to achieve my personal goals.  I will employ violence only to protect my life and property and that of those few people I cherish against agression.  That means I won't stuff my craw full of taxpayer loot, even when it is offered freely, even on the most pleasant and delightful of terms.  I will make my way in this world by voluntary trade with other free men. 

The Oathkeepers claim to be an "association of currently serving military, veterans, peace officers, and firefighters."  With the possible exception of those few veterans who will not be asked to obey new orders, then every oathkeeper, every day, violates one of their own "10 orders we will not obey."  "We will NOT obey any orders to confiscate the property of the American people, " is a damned lie.  Active-duty oathkeepers quite literaly make their living on confiscated property.  They may not have the stomach to do the stealing face-to-face, but every thin dime in their pocket was taken by force from a productive citizen.

Modern war and oppression are carried out by a long chain of individuals, each doing his or her job meticulously while simultaneously refusing to look at the end results of his or her work. There is no state or corporate evil that is not the result of personal sinfulness.

Rev. Emmanuel Charles McCarthy

To the extent that the Oathkeepers are an association of currently serving military, police, and firefighters then their ranks are filled with soldiers occupying foreign nations or militarized enforcers occupying American cities and towns.  Each and every one does their job meticulously.  Their true allegiance is to their comrades, not to the constitution, which the commander the OK's happily obeyed correctly characterized a "just a goddamned peace of paper."

To expect people who must twist their moral compass off its hinges in order to make their daily bread to suddenly develop a functioning concience when there is blood in the streets is folly.  When the Catholics under Father McCarthy's care were ordered to murder hundreds of thousands of women and children, including entire convents of Catholic nuns, neither they nor their chaplain objected.  Only after he had walked through the rubble and confronted the results of his own actions did he realize his errors.

It will be the same today.  Oathkeepers will swear their mighty oaths, but they will still drop the bombs, rape the children, shoot the women, burn the villages, steal the money, take the guns, confiscate the hoarded food, and above all else obey their orders and support their comrades.  Perhaps a few will realize in hindsight the enormity of their crimes.  But any that presently possess the intellect and self-awarness to contemplate the utter immorality of their actions have already laid down their arms and walked away from the madness.

Elias, I respect you and have read your writings for many years.  Your efforts on behalf of freedom are many and praiseworthy.  If you feel that working on the Oathkeepers is a sound strategy, it is not my place to question your thinking.  I will point out that you are a perfect example of the few who realized after the fact what was right and true, took off your costume, and walked away.  You make your living as a free man and not a tax eater.  An army of like-minded folk would be formidable indeed.

To the extent that the "strategy" is to gently lead Oathkeepers to take an honest look in the mirror, the program may have some utility.  But that strategy will be effective only to the extent that it causes Oathkeepers to strip off their costumes and renounce violence as a way of life.  In other words, it may thin the ranks of oppressors, and particularly the enforcers.  That is why the government mouthpieces are squawking.  But when the bayonets are fixed, they will be used to stir the guts of women and children, oaths to the contrary.

Peace,

Silver

I believe you generalize not so accurately as you'd like to believe, friend. Meanness disguised?

[jamie]

 I have put on more than one government costume and I agree with Silver.  History agrees with Silver.

He has what used to be called righteous anger. 

[freewoman]

I do not disagree with Silver.  But what is history?  Merely a carefully-chosen array of viewpoints and opinions, with a few dates and times and places thrown in to make it look "objective".  And who says there are not aspects of "history" that were shaped by the sharing of an alternative?  I can think of several examples.

I welcome the day when the costumes created by society are removed.  I encourage anyone who's in the process of doing so right now.  And I believe Oath Keepers can be part of that process. 

[Jarel]

"It will be the same today.  Oathkeepers will swear their mighty oaths, but they will still drop the bombs, rape the children, shoot the women, burn the villages, steal the money, take the guns, confiscate the hoarded food, and above all else obey their orders and support their comrades.  Perhaps a few will realize in hindsight the enormity of their crimes.  But any that presently possess the intellect and self-awareness to contemplate the utter immorality of their actions have already laid down their arms and walked away from the madness."--Silver
I would like to think that Oathkeepers won't be the ones doing these things, friends, only the ones who don't understand the effect of their actions. Though there are aspects of this position I agree with; most of us in OK are people who from time to time say to ourselves, "if only I knew then, I wouldn't have done that". One thing I'd like to see done in OK is the education of our soldiers on who's really pulling the strings, and why. Informed people make informed choices,...

[jamie]

Oath-Keepers might be a noble effort. The Elias tree chopping metaphor might turn out to be true. We will see. I agree with Spooner but that doesn't mean I am not an Oath-Keeper.

There is a  super patriot, love it or leave it, religious, immigrant hatred, totalitarian  right wing strain in Oath-Keepers. I would like them to be about freedom, but that's not going to happen the way I would like.    So I take what I can get,  I would have allied with the communist partisans in Yugoslavia in 1942.  


 The people on the receiving end of the Einsatzgruppen in Russia in 1942 couldn't afford an intellectual view of history.  The Hondurans getting gassed and beaten down now can't either.

[freewoman]

I agree that the super-patriot, neo-con element is connecting itself to OK.  They're also present in the Tea Parties, and in many other endeavors, along with people who truly desire freedom.  One has to decide for his/herself if that's a deal-breaker or not.

In my view, the "intellectual view of history" is the one espoused by the "party line"; the type of history that's written by the victors.  Real history is what one makes it to be; it's experiential in nature.  Those who are being persecuted don't care about any type of history; they only care about ending the persecution.

[Jimbo]

 Joined Oathkeepers.
The following are my opinions and mine only. I cannot sum up every last detail in a few key strokes, but this should let you know where I'm coming from:

Do we need a military? Yes. Ghenghis Khan, Mao, and Hitler were let out of the bag a long time ago. Any people that doesn't have the organized and unorganized means to defend itself deserves to perish. Idealism won't protect you from wolves who intend to devour you.

Navy, as permitted by the U.S. Constitution. Air Force, we should keep it and amend the constitution to do so. Army, primarily National Guard based to avoid tyranny of standing Armies AND to keep from being Legions for Leviathan. No NATO, no entangling military alliances/treaties, no UN missions and no nation building. Like Smedley Butler said, defense for our territory and Bill of Rights. All of this should be voluntarily funded. If you opt out of funding, fine and good, but no disaster relief or rescue for you should the need arise.

Draft, limited return to it. The children & grand children of politicos would be drafted and placed in combat & combat service and support units where they would be shot at should war be declared.