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[Elias Alias]

What I did and do is my business but it was not confined to posting or griping.  If there ever comes a day when speaking truth accomplishes nothing more than bringing down the wrath of the enforcers I'll recite my accomplishments and compare them to anyone here.  I'm not concerned about that reckoning.

Totally agree with you, Silver. I've nothing but keen respect for all the liberty-oriented work you've done, and I'm very proud that you've been a member at this forum for many years, spreading your insightful experience and wisdom freely. You've been a powerful voice for reason here. I truly appreciate that. And guess what - there's no "but" to follow what I just said. I highly respect you. No "but".

It will be the same today.  Oathkeepers will swear their mighty oaths, but they will still drop the bombs, rape the children, shoot the women, burn the villages, steal the money, take the guns, confiscate the hoarded food, and above all else obey their orders and support their comrades.  Perhaps a few will realize in hindsight the enormity of their crimes.  But any that presently possess the intellect and self-awarness to contemplate the utter immorality of their actions have already laid down their arms and walked away from the madness.

I must challenge you on two points here. First, as you stated that "Oathkeepers will swear their mighty oaths, but....", that is not true in my vision of this. I would prefer to qualify that statement by you by changing the word "Oathkeepers" with the words "Oath Takers". All service personnel take the oath, but very few indeed become Oath Keepers in action, in reality. The great difference between being a mere Oath Taker and becoming a true "Oath Keeper" is one of the key goals of Oath Keepers as an organization. At the film screening Oath Keepers held last night in Bozeman, our film was the story of Michael New. Michael New was one man in a battalion of service members numbering 550 troops. When ordered under President Clinton to wear the UN uniform (the blue beret, etc.), Michael New refused on Constitutional grounds.  Four hundred forty-nine troops blindly followed that unlawful order, while only one troop refused to follow the order. Michael New was an Oath Keeper fourteen years before Oath Keepers was formed as an organization. Such tidbits of our American military history show clearly the great need for the Oath Keepers mission. Our mission is to "reach, teach, and inspire all Oath Takers to become Oath Keepers".  More on the 449 vs 1 shortly.

Secondly, men of conscience, especially such men  who also have studied history and have a passion for philosophy, come invariably to the conclusion that the life of a soldier in a standing army has much to indict it, inherently.  Yet there is something very honorable about any man who would take up arms to defend his people and country. Where the problem comes in is at the level of command. When the level of highest command is corrupt, it is impossible for that corruption to stay isolated at the top of the chain of command, and the following degradation of the nobility inherent in a patriotic young man's willingness to be his people's defender is almost unavoidable, and to avoid sharing in the corruption any soldier will face the grave dangers exposed in the Michael New story. I am in perfect agreement with you on the morality of wearing "costumes" given by the state to willing dupes who're trained to follow any order coming down the chain of command. But - I question your premise and beg to contemplate an alternative to remain in uniform and use oneself as a deterrent to the fulfillment (or following) of unlawful orders. That is what Michael New did, and as his story continues to spread across our land, his plight is becoming more widely known within military circles, and it gives soldiers today some basis for reflection upon their own standards, individually.  I am saying that it is important to have "moles" inside the military, and by "moles" I'm meaning strong individuals who have the guts to question unlawful orders and stand down instead of blindly "following orders".  The purpose of Oath Keepers is to reach receptive military and law enforcement personnel with the truth behind their oaths, and to show them clearly that they are needed right now to stand against tyranny coming down from the apex of their chain of command. Our success in this mission would provide a buffer between a rogue government which might order our troops to violate our enumerated rights in the Constitution and the actual carrying out of such unlawful orders. In other words, a man of conscience can be a powerful worker for liberty, truth, and justice by retaining his uniformed status within the military, and if Oath Keepers can get even ten percent of all troops to understand the true meaning contained within that oath, then the powers of corruption which dictate all orders down the chain of command would be much more hesitant to give orders which they're not certain their troops would carry out.

I agree that for some contemplative souls the only choice is to throw off the costume and return to honorable work elsewhere during corrupt and abusive times. But I also would like to suggest that other men of similar views might find a way to serve more effectively by standing, in uniform, against the corruption, thusly interdicting the awesome power of the military establishment which has during recent decades been abused by each successive President with foreign, undeclared "wars".  I would like to see all readers here come to understand the value in having conscientious soldiers understand the meaning in the oath and make our stand to support those brave soldiers like Michael New. Please pass this story around - http://www.mikenew.com/

Elias, I respect you and have read your writings for many years.  Your efforts on behalf of freedom are many and praiseworthy.  If you feel that working on the Oathkeepers is a sound strategy, it is not my place to question your thinking.  I will point out that you are a perfect example of the few who realized after the fact what was right and true, took off your costume, and walked away.  You make your living as a free man and not a tax eater.  An army of like-minded folk would be formidable indeed.

To the extent that the "strategy" is to gently lead Oathkeepers to take an honest look in the mirror, the program may have some utility.  But that strategy will be effective only to the extent that it causes Oathkeepers to strip off their costumes and renounce violence as a way of life.  In other words, it may thin the ranks of oppressors, and particularly the enforcers.  That is why the government mouthpieces are squawking.  But when the bayonets are fixed, they will be used to stir the guts of women and children, oaths to the contrary.

I've very little to argue in rebuttal with your assessment, but would like to offer a little bit of "fine tuning", as per my closing thoughts in the immediately above paragraph by self. I do believe that the best way to throw off the insane abusiveness of present-day corruption emanating from fedgov is to remove the willingness of all troops and law enforcement personnel from the chain of command - not by seeing them all walk away from service, but by seeing them make a courageous and conscientious stand against unlawful orders.

Oath Keepers proposes to remove the power of the military and law enforcement communities from the use of corrupt federal powers, not by asking them to get out of law enforcement and military duty, but by asking them to learn the meaning in their oath and honoring that meaning while serving. This goal, could we accomplish it to even fifteen or twenty percent of military and LEO personnel, would greatly disempower the forces of tyranny which presently dictate the abusive application and use of our military and law enforcement.

It is a lofty vision, Silver, and that vision came from one of our own right here at TMM, a rascal we affectionately call "Stewart The Yalie". As such, I'd like to recommend that we all support the central mission of Oath Keepers.

http://www.oathkeepers.org/

Salute!
Elias

[CorbinKale]

Stewart knows what he is doing. From the beginning, he knew the group would be bashed from all sides. The hate groups, the 'where were you when...' accusations, the infiltrators, the political groups that want to steer OK to their own cause, etc.

We get it. We can stand it. We know we have to stay focused on the specifically limited mission to reach, teach and inspire those who have taken the Oath, as it is legally and morally bulletproof. We may fail. We may be too late. If we can't reclaim our liberty and restore our constitutional republic through this method, focusing on the Oath, we lose only our last gambit to do this thing without bloodshed. That is basically the purpose of OK, to avoid bloodshed, you know. There are other ways, but the OK method is worth trying first, in my opinion.

Where were we under the previous administrations?  We have been waging our war as individuals the whole time, and are now forming a unified front under the OK banner. I caused myself all kinds of grief my last few years in the Infantry, speaking out against Bush's violations of his constitutional Oath. The Patriot Act, Campaign Finance Reform, failure to secure our borders from invasion, etc. I beat all who came against me, using my Oath as both shield and sword, and retired in 2005. My Oath doesn't expire until I do, so I continue the fight in Oath Keepers.

[Silver]

Elias, thank you very much for the thoughtful and civil response.  We both work for the same things.

You spoke of fine tuning.  Perhaps a bit of fine tuning of the OK's rather lofty language should be considered.  My original post on this topic pointed out 6 inconsistenties between the rhetoric and the day-to-day reality that are so extreme I believe they justify an accusation of hypocrisy.   As far as I can tell, none of the responses to my post have answered or countered those 6 points.

I have no argument with lofty goals.  I share some of these, and have my own.  There's nothing wrong with a free man's reach exceeding his grasp.  My criticism is that when the plain language of the oath is obviously and repeatedly violated every single day by anyone practicing the professions in question, the oath loses meaning and calls the honesty and integrity of the oath taker into question. 

If, for example, OK Board member Chief Celia S. Hyde will swear a mighty oath not to disarm citizens,  then goes out herself or oversees officers who go out and enforce a MA law that will put a citizen in jail for 10 long years if they don't lock their firearm when stored at home, rendering it useless, is she not open to charges of blatant hypocrisy?  How does she reconcile her oath to honor the right to bear arms with enforcement of a law that demands the each and every citizen get advance approval from the police not only to carry a weapon, but simply to own one at all, even if it never leaves the home?  A law the enforces registration of all firearms and records of all ammunition purchases?  Does the fact that she has retired change her responsibility in this area?  Will she make a public statement to the effect that no OK who is a MA police officer should enforce this draconian, unconstitutional, victim-disarming law?

It can't be both ways.  The plain language of the "Orders we will not obey" section of the OK web site is inconsistent with continued employment in police or military work.  An active-duty OK is almost certainly breaking their oath on a regular basis.  This is not a situation that gives me confidence that in a terrible situation, where superiors are ordering still more horrible deeds, the Oath Keepers will suddenly decide to jeopardize their careers and very possibly their lives to defy that order.  They have already made that choice in their daily actions.  Just as you will fight as you train, you will follow as you have followed.

If the line in the sand that the OKs vow not to cross were drawn more realistically, so that I couldn't charge every single active-duty member with being a damned liar, I would withdraw my objections.  That's where some fine tuning may be in order.

I appreaciate what you have done and are trying to do.  My criticisms of the Oath Keepers are not about the concept, but about the Oath itself and how it is described and explained by the Oath Keepers.  A group of people who swear oaths that they immediately and repeatedly violate already infests Mordor on the Potomac, we don't need more recruits to that particular army.

Peace,

Silver

[Bluelinegirl]

I have to agree on several points (I appologize for not taking the time to read every post in the thread however).  I absolutely Love the 'lofty goals' of the OK, it's why I joined. But I personally witness what appears to a division in the ranks as well; It appears to be between the active duty and prior service (Military and LE).  It appears to me that the older and wiser (    ) are more prone to defend the Constitution while the AD seem more prone to follow orders. However, and this is a major bone of contention with me for both sides, I have yet to see anyone post a 'call to arms (if you will)' such as meeting 'victims' of rights violations or encroachments at the court houses or even a call to donate to legal funds.  If the SHTF, im glad to know that OK will fight with us, but what about the war on now? Seems like too many are waiting to pick their battles.  I believe if a call to action were made to testify on behalf of one of our brothers in citizenship with regards to the meaning of the Constitution and not just the latest, most convenient translation of it (after all, it is OUR constitution), many OK brothers and sisters would show or at the very least contribute to the legal or travel funds. (Wow, I almost feel like an American again, being able to freely speak my mind and all..I miss this feeling.)

Excellent thread btw, I look forward to reading more of it.

[da gooch]

Elias, thank you very much for the thoughtful and civil response.  We both work for the same things.

You spoke of fine tuning.  Perhaps a bit of fine tuning of the OK's rather lofty language should be considered.  My original post on this topic pointed out 6 inconsistenties between the rhetoric and the day-to-day reality that are so extreme I believe they justify an accusation of hypocrisy.   As far as I can tell, none of the responses to my post have answered or countered those 6 points.

I have no argument with lofty goals.  I share some of these, and have my own.  There's nothing wrong with a free man's reach exceeding his grasp.  My criticism is that when the plain language of the oath is obviously and repeatedly violated every single day by anyone practicing the professions in question, the oath loses meaning and calls the honesty and integrity of the oath taker into question. 

If, for example, OK Board member Chief Celia S. Hyde will swear a mighty oath not to disarm citizens,  then goes out herself or oversees officers who go out and enforce a MA law that will put a citizen in jail for 10 long years if they don't lock their firearm when stored at home, rendering it useless, is she not open to charges of blatant hypocrisy?  How does she reconcile her oath to honor the right to bear arms with enforcement of a law that demands the each and every citizen get advance approval from the police not only to carry a weapon, but simply to own one at all, even if it never leaves the home?  A law the enforces registration of all firearms and records of all ammunition purchases?  Does the fact that she has retired change her responsibility in this area?  Will she make a public statement to the effect that no OK who is a MA police officer should enforce this draconian, unconstitutional, victim-disarming law?

It can't be both ways.  The plain language of the "Orders we will not obey" section of the OK web site is inconsistent with continued employment in police or military work.  An active-duty OK is almost certainly breaking their oath on a regular basis.  This is not a situation that gives me confidence that in a terrible situation, where superiors are ordering still more horrible deeds, the Oath Keepers will suddenly decide to jeopardize their careers and very possibly their lives to defy that order.  They have already made that choice in their daily actions.  Just as you will fight as you train, you will follow as you have followed.

If the line in the sand that the OKs vow not to cross were drawn more realistically, so that I couldn't charge every single active-duty member with being a damned liar, I would withdraw my objections.  That's where some fine tuning may be in order.

I appreaciate what you have done and are trying to do.  My criticisms of the Oath Keepers are not about the concept, but about the Oath itself and how it is described and explained by the Oath Keepers.  A group of people who swear oaths that they immediately and repeatedly violate already infests Mordor on the Potomac, we don't need more recruits to that particular army.

Peace,

Silver

Forgive me for stepping into a conversation that you and Elias are having Silver.

I would like to make an observation if I am allowed.  Naww I'll do it anyway.

It seems to me that you are lumping every currently serving oath taker [government employee] with the members of Oath Keepers.

The Organization does not speak for all government employees by any stretch of the imagination.  Some of our most virulent detractors are currently serving government employees because like many they have misunderstood our actions and intentions.
In their case they assume we are trying to overthrow the government by refusing orders from a "superior" officer when what we are really doing is educating each oath taker to realize that since Nuremberg [1945-46]"I was just following orders." is no longer a defense for obeying unlawful orders of ANY kind from ANY direction.

In your case [I think, that is If I understand your position, and in many others opinions as well] we are painted as not being proactive enough and are therefore hypocrites.
We are NOT claiming that we are going to end criminal action by any oath taker TODAY this minute in any way that we can.
Our strategy is to slowly and decisively remove all of the teeth in the wolf's mouth OR at least enough of them to cause the wolf to stop biting things or to seriously doubt whether or not he can still bite anything with his teeth all missing.
Non-violent resistance. Refusal of unlawful [unconstitutional] orders. The Prevention of [even more] Tyranny not an "overthrow" of anything.
[Please do read our What we are Not List ?]

That is the first goal.
What is not spoken aloud is not as evident but is just as powerful.
By educating each oath taker on his or her responsibilities to the Constitution [NOT the government] we gradually open minds and hearts to the idea of Liberty as a real actual living thing a Lifestyle not some fantasy ideal to strive for but that is not attainable.
[Here then finally is our attempt at removal of the current tyranny and still non-violent in manner.]
At the same time those now awakened people will be "Locally" forming voting blocks and community groups to remove from office the 3P's that have nearly driven this country into oblivion.
The Republic is reborn without bloodshed. We fervently Hope.


It may be too late but I for one will not quit trying. I don't know how I would ever be able to explain to my grand sons why I didn't even TRY to stop the juggernaut while I was young enough to at least try.

gooch
=====
The OK What we are Not List.

What We Are Not

We are Not advocating or promoting the overthrow of any government whether local, state or national.
We want our governments to return to the Constitutional Republic which the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution defined and instituted.

We are Not advocating or promoting violence towards any organization, group or person.
We are determined to Keep our Oath to support and defend the Constitution.

We are not advocating or promoting the removal of any person from his or her elected office.
We want all elected persons to live up to their Oath to "support and defend the Constitution" as it is written or to leave of their own volition.

We are not advocating or promoting that anyone in the Judicial Branch be removed or replaced.
We want the Justices in the Judicial Branch to follow the Constitution as written without interpretation.

We are not advocating or promoting any particular form of government other than the Constitutional Republic which the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution defined and instituted.

We are not advocating or promoting the rewriting of the Constitution nor are we asking for an Amendment thereto.
We are insisting on the Constitution being Enforced as it is written.

We are Not advocating or promoting any act or acts of aggression against any organization or person for any reason including, but not limited to; race, religion, national origin, political affiliation, gender or sexual orientation.

We hope for a return to a Constitutional Republic free from fear and hatred. We hate only tyranny.

We are Oath Sworn Americans who want the Constitution returned to its legal and rightful place, intact, as the ultimate Law of the Land.

[Rarick]

Hey Elias and gang, I had a tought the other day.   Before WW2 when Hitler and the Nazis were consolidating power, what happened to the local police?  What Kind of weeding out took place, or were the local police simply made totally subservient to the Gestapo?  Is that the way the current SOP's are being written in regards to DHS/FEMA support?  Or did the Gestapo simply replace the police............

I had the thought that if the progressives were going to make a take over move, that they may just subsume or eradicate and replace the local police first.  Then they would start on the local citizenry......

Also are the DHS goons sworn officers, and what is  their oath of office?

[Silver]

I don't know the detailed history of police evolution in pre-war Germany, and I wouldn't trust most history books on the subject.  History is written by the victors.

Twenty-first century Amerika is arguably quite different than early 20th-century Germany.  Militarization of the police force has been underway for decades, under the guise of the war on drugs.  The past few decades of continual wars have trained a great many police in the realities, tactics, and strategies of door-to-door searches, occupation, and urban combat.  Modern police forces are replete with combat-hardened veterans who have learned to think of the enemy as less than human.  We are the enemy.

Germany didn't have that background; they had other things, like a hyperinflation, to stir things up.  We may get some of that training all too soon.

Peace,

Silver

[Elias Alias]

Twenty-first century Amerika is arguably quite different than early 20th-century Germany.  Militarization of the police force has been underway for decades, under the guise of the war on drugs.  The past few decades of continual wars have trained a great many police in the realities, tactics, and strategies of door-to-door searches, occupation, and urban combat.  Modern police forces are replete with combat-hardened veterans who have learned to think of the enemy as less than human.  We are the enemy.

You are right, Silver. "Militarized Police" is the domestic side of the government's military. It is, indeed, a "standing army". And it is supplied now in part by Federal interests. Today's DARPA-spawned "cutting edge weaponry and science" is field-tested in illegal wars and once it has been updated in design, it becomes "military surplus" and is then given over to Federal enforcement agencies and Departments. It then is passed to police departments and Sheriffs' offices across the land. "We" are the enemy, just as you said. The government is busily creating the enemy right now, and has been for a number of years. And the enemy is us.

Therefore, you and I see eye to eye on that point, yes? So does Devvy. Check out her newest -

http://www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd615.htm

So now that we all see the nature of the problem, and now that we understand that the revelations are now swamping us faster than we can find time to read all of them, all of us can see the patterns evolving. We all know that most of our Congress thinks that one-world government is the solution to all of our problems. We all know that an entire mountain of so-called "laws" are on the books since 9/11/2001, and that the thrust is generally to enslave the American middle class, get rid of the Constitution, turn "geopolitical" every possible chance, take the peoples' guns, and then oppress any dissidence with vigor using their now well-equipped and fujlly armed "standing army", which thinks of itself as the hero who is out there eradicating those pesty Constitutionalists so the true supporters of empowered governance will not be hindered. It's been turned on its head, is all ass-backwards. After we won the Cold War there literally was no "enemy" which could be used in psy-ops via the American press and media to inspire taxpayers to keep their noses to the grindstone and support the insane, evil, un-Constitutional wars abroad.  The perversion of the press (by and large, with a few notable exceptions) was to sell that to the people in terms which would not alert the people to the brevity and shortness of their leashes. The media/press is presently helping DHS demonize various segments of our over-all society. Ron Paulers, Constitutionalists, 2nd Amendment advocates, Informed jurors, sound money advocates, and most notably of all, "returning war Veterans". Wow.  All such dissidents are now squarely in the cross-hairs of DHS and other elements of Justice and Defense Departments. It's every bit as bad as you describe, and getting worse day by day.

But the real problem is even more insidious. That would be the conditioning, programming, training, and influential priority-setting values hammered into young soldiers' and cops' heads at the outset of their new chosen career. The programming is massive and continuously employed to keep cops and soldiers always looking forward to the next phase in career management. Don't rock the boat and you'll get promoted; rock the boat and you'll have to worry then about how to feed your family, which already is living sub-standard while you're "serving the country". Follow orders! Do as you're told. Do it well and do it now! Question the Constitutionality of it later, after you've executed the order. (I remember how it was for me in Vietnam - the last thing I would think to do would be to ponder the Constitutionality of any damn order barked at my dumb ass, right? Intense programming and conditioning, teaching and "Feducating". All backed by motivation related to job security and familial security. Frankly, people like us haven't got a fighting chance.

So, Silver, here is my question. Oath Keepers purports to reach these guys and gals with the guns. Once we reach them, our next step is to teach them. And once taught, our duty to our mission is to inspire them to become Oath Keepers. The "Ten Orders We Will Not Obey" set us apart, and they resonate with several thousand cops and several thousand current-serving soldiers. Oath Keepers is in ongoing conversations with those cops and soldiers, and we help them reach, teach, and inspire others in their groups / outfits.  Every time a soldier or a cop is helped successfully out of the embedded mindset which has been transplanted into his perception, and comes back to his senses as it were, we the people gain one more peace officer and the damned government loses one more robotized brainwashed useful GI.  The thousands of cops need our support as they help their peers wake up. They need to be recognized as men and women who believe in the Constitution and in the freedoms inherent in our traditions as Americans. At Oath Keepers, they can visit with soldiers and cops from all over the place. So I'm asking you - can't you grasp a reason to support our work at Oath Keepers, and lay off trying to lump the good ones into the same coagulated mess called "law enforcement"? Good cops and soldiers, those who will not follow un-Constitutional orders, need Oath Keepers, and they need support from the people. Every one who converts to Oath Keepers is one less we'll have to face ourselves, and in fact, becomes one who will help our side. Winning the hearts and minds of the soldiers and cops. Not a bad operation while we're waiting for "Claire Time" to show up, yes?

Happy Thanksgiving, Silver. (And anyone else reading this too!)
Salute!
Elias

[slidemansailor]

It is far easier to turn a ship from within the hull than from without.

It is because of Oath Keepers success that people jump in and want it to become more, or different. Its success is because it remains firm to its principles: Reach - Teach - Inspire.

Not change. Not quit your job. Not open fire on statists or fascists. Those things could result down the line from inspired patriots if others choose to declare war against free, peaceful people. But Oath Keepers will not fire the first shot, nor will they declare war.

One or two thoughtful people in each group can get others thinking. This was the founding of the Oath Keepers when ONE MAN in the uniform of his National Guard unit took his concern to the commanding officer. That one man speaking up was the pivot point getting the entire guard unit to tell DHS "NO. We cannot go door-to-door in New Orleans confiscating firearms."

Replicate this and we all may get out of this mess alive. 

NO guarantees.  But the the best peaceful hope I can see.

And if it comes to full on war against us, having questioning and unwilling troops on their side is nothing but good for ours.

[Rarick]

Yeah, few seeds.......   I am just try to point out to the few remaining "Good" cops out there, that they may be in a situation where they turn around and have to "Give it up to Rufus in the shower" unless they have made plans to shrug.........  That would allow them to walk away from being a lackey of DHS goon squads and being a popular proxy target for the angst caused by the "Night Knockers"........

[Elias Alias]

Yeah, few seeds.......   I am just try to point out to the few remaining "Good" cops out there, that they may be in a situation where they turn around and have to "Give it up to Rufus in the shower" unless they have made plans to shrug.........  That would allow them to walk away from being a lackey of DHS goon squads and being a popular proxy target for the angst caused by the "Night Knockers"........

Of the Peace Officers who are members in Oath Keepers, every one of them would tell you eye to eye that he/she has many times thought through just what you're saying.

The idea is to help them educate their fellow cops, don't you think? Right now I've got 'em passing this around as educational material.

http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2013/12/02/josie-the-outlaw/

Salute!
Elias Alias

[Rarick]

Yep, but there are rumbling on social media and other places that are looking ominous.  Where there used to be references to "triple S" is starting to get specific like people are thinking things over in detail.........   What house address to call in a "Domestic shots fired" on, so a long gun(S) has good clear shots that don't go thru cars or door panels.......... and has a chance of spotting the entry crew as well......

There are a lot of dog lovers out there trying to make similar plans.......

No I am not going to give specifics, I am trying to let people know somethings are sliding faster than they expect......and nothing has actually been done, so no law has been broken.

[Elias Alias]

Yep, but there are rumbling on social media and other places that are looking ominous.  Where there used to be references to "triple S" is starting to get specific like people are thinking things over in detail.........   What house address to call in a "Domestic shots fired" on, so a long gun(S) has good clear shots that don't go thru cars or door panels.......... and has a chance of spotting the entry crew as well......

There are a lot of dog lovers out there trying to make similar plans.......

Jeez, Rarick - what's your point, Man?

I'm trying to talk about positive consciousness - you know, that "mental" part of what we're all doing here in a "mental" militia - using our damned minds constructively to help turn an evil tide of totalitarian tyranny, and you sit here like an auto-referent god damning everything I am working for - using your sour words. So what's up Dude?

Salute!
Elias

[Silver]

So I'm asking you - can't you grasp a reason to support our work at Oath Keepers, and lay off trying to lump the good ones into the same coagulated mess called "law enforcement"? Good cops and soldiers, those who will not follow un-Constitutional orders, need Oath Keepers, and they need support from the people. Every one who converts to Oath Keepers is one less we'll have to face ourselves, and in fact, becomes one who will help our side. Winning the hearts and minds of the soldiers and cops. Not a bad operation while we're waiting for "Claire Time" to show up, yes?

Happy Thanksgiving, Silver. (And anyone else reading this too!)
Salute!
Elias

Elias,

Thank you for the Thanksgiving wishes, and for your thoughtful response to my questions and objections.

I think that I understand what you are trying to do.  I wish you the very best of luck.  Success would be truly wonderful.

But I must sadly answer your question in the negative.  I can't give any meaningful support. I will gladly wish you luck but I don't believe there is any chance of success as you describe it.

There are no good cops.  There are no good soldiers.  They exist only in propaganda films and fantasies. Both occupations are inherently evil. Both attract thugs and bullies.  Both turn well-intentioned fools into psychopaths.

There are good EX-cops.  There are good EX-soldiers.  But the fact that they are good is inextricably linked with the fact that as they became aware they took off the costume and walked away from what they knew was an inherently evil way of life.

I believe that to the extent you are successful, it will be measured in how many take off the costume and renounce their evil ways.  As you did.  As others have done.  Those are the real victories.  Those are people I could learn to trust.

When I am confronted by a costumed thug with a gun, one who assures me that he or she is an Oath Keeper, the only thing I will learn is that the psychopath menacing me is not awake, is not aware, and is unable to grasp the inherent evil of beating and killing in return for payment with stolen money.  I could never trust such a person with so much as a burnt-out match.

I'm not saying that you are wrong to work as you do.  I am saying that success will look a lot different than you imagine.

Peace,

Silver

[Elias Alias]

Silver,
Thank you for the candid reply. I grok your pov. I have no interest in attempting further to alter your perspective on this subject, so I'll just bow out of the discussion with you and release you to your highest good. May you be blessed in every way. And along your way, perhaps you'll someday come to ponder just why Claire Wolfe writes a column for SWAT Magazine, yes?

Salute, Silver!
Elias Alias