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Author Topic: Conspiracy theories VS Reality  (Read 20741 times)

Klapton Isgod

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Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2009, 10:08:04 am »

I have to have a life-threatening wasting disease to lose my appetite.  No mere emotional trauma can override my belly.  That's why I'm a fat guy.

To understand possible government motives for 9-11 involves at least a few layers of tin-foil.  Check out "The Project for a New American Century."  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century  This thinktank put out a document that stated (I'm paraphrasing) that their plans for American dominance in the 21st century would require an attack or threat to America, something like "a new Pearl Harbor."  Donald Rumsfeld was one of the authors of this document.

Another tinfoil layer is the idea that our government is corrupted by wealthy elites with financial interests in American aggression.  The "military-industrial complex" that Eisenhower warned us about.  Without the Cold War, these wealthy elites no longer have their gravy train.  Try to figure out who got rich off these two wars, and you will find people who had possible motives for 9-11.  Find out what politicians they bribed made "campaign contributions" to, and you have likely candidates for consiracy.  This is where Dick Cheyney comes under heavy suspicion.

And ALL politicians have something to gain by the growth of government in general.  That's why the republican party is so full of shit when they talk about smaller government (most don't even bother TALKING about this anymore).  They simply grow different PARTS of the government.  DHS didn't exist before 9-11.  Other law enforcement and intelligence agencies have ballooned since 9-11.

So why does this benefit all politicians?  Here's why...  What is the #1 way to get UN-elected in America?  Be in power when a recession hits.  (#2 is to raise taxes... that's why both parties LOVE the Federal Reserve and the ability to tax people via Inflation Tax...  Because the sheeple are completely unaware of this hidden tax, and no politician has to vote for it or be accountable for it.)  What's the best way to mask recession and keep unemployment down?  Create "jobs" out of thin air, funded by stolen tax dollars, of course!  The Republican party, in spite of their past rhetoric about small or limited government go along with this, or perhaps make pretend objections to fool the people, but end up supporting the growth of government anyway, because they know that if the economy takes a dump, they are likely to lose power.  (Or rather, if the voting sheeple KNOW the economy sucks is more like it.  The REAL economy has been in steady decline since the 1980s.)
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Basil Fishbone

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Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2009, 12:28:35 am »

In doing false flag operations, governments are able to alarm the public, and use the power of the controlled press, to convince them to acquiesce in the deliberate and planned destruction of the Bill of Rights, the imposition of a police state, diminishment of traditional, constitutional legal rights, property rights, privacy rights, all of it.   Historically, one of the clear uses for false flag operations is to be able to blame them on the country you wish to attack and in the course of your war, impose domestic controls.   Or they could be blamed on domestic opponents of the impending dictatorship, as an excuse to declare martial law and suspend the constitution.  Then they begin to try to round up those dissidents to put them in Haliburton's concentration camps ($385 million paid by the U.S. taxpayers)... door-to-door searches for guns ...
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mouse

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Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2009, 03:23:14 am »


My doubts about 9/11 hinge on the issue of the third building collapse (#7 or #5?). If this building
was blown down, then it means there was foreknowledge that an attack was going to happen. There
couldn't be any other explanation, as it takes time to set charges to demolish a building.

The minimum involvement of our government then was knowing it would happen, an deciding to
not stop it so that they could take advantage of the disaster. Whether they planned it or just let it
happen, it is equally evil in my book. So it really comes down to whether the stories about the third
building be blown down are are true or not.

Bear




Well actually in the scenario that you just painted, the minimum involvement of the government would be to demolish at least building seven (thereby destroying all the records of pending court cases against corrupt departments and corporations and "destroying" all records of the tenants in Bldg 7 (I say "destroying" in inverted commas because I don't believe that they have really been destroyed, I believe that they were removed beforehand) .  So even if you believe that they were merely "taking advantage of the disaster", it implies foreknowledge because - as you said - it takes time to set charges for a deliberate demolition, so they must have had at least a few months foreknowledge to enable that to happen.

What "stories about the third building" are you referring to?  (I'm not being sarcastic, just really asking).
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mouse

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Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2009, 04:54:41 am »

Nothing the "Government" has done should be considered a "mistake" as all governments do as they please, and the outcomes are planned far in advance.
There are no coincidences, only the illusion of such.

The problem with this view is that we see tons of evidence of government actions that clearly have "unintended consequences."  In other words, the Evil Mastermind model contradicts the "couldn't take a shit without screwing it up" model of government.  And to be honest, I'm not sure which to believe, because they both have the ring of truth to them.  Most likely it's more complex than that, with elements of both.  Because one cannot deny that LOTS of things the government does are just plain STUPID ...  way too stupid to be the work of evil geniuses.


It is probably true that everything the government does, they do with incredible incompetence and total stupidity, too stupid to be the work of evil geniuses.  However, doesn't 9.11 just prove that point?

I mean 9.11 was conducted with such idiocy that it is OBVIOUS that there had to the hand of government in there somewhere.  People just believe that the governmnent wasn't involved because they said they weren't and so many people are only too willing to believe anything the government says (to quote someone, somewhere on these boards, but I can't remember where I saw it now "if the government told people to go out and buy excrement and feed it to their kids, most people would do this).

I mean the official story is utterly absurd, claiming that the laws of physics were suspended for that day is ludicrous - yet people believe it.  The idea that this could have been planned and directed from a cave in Afghanistan is ludicrous, the idea that Mohammad Atta's passport could somehow fly out of a burning plane, pass undamaged through the building, surviving an epic disaster that melted structural steel designed to withstand temperatures of 2000 degrees Fahrenheit, incinerating both planes’ cockpit recorders and black-box recorders, and vaporising the flesh and bones of nearly 3,000 people, and land undamaged on the pavement below, is utterly absurd, the fact that we are expected to believe that a plane with a wingspan of 144ft can fit into a hole 16ft across, is absurd and stupid, now that is a real stretch of the loyalty of all the government "yes men" around, it is also very stupid, ridiculous, idiotic, in fact it is beyond stupid - it is mega-stupid.

And you said that much of what government does is mega-stupid, and all these things were mega-stupid, so?

Seems to fit for me.

The fact that this was all pulled off "successfully" is not the fault of government competence in any way, it is absolutely due to the fact that people are so incredibly obsequious that they'll believe any old dumb tale, and that for everyone who laughed at things like "making cellphone calls from aircraft when that was not possible in 2001", and "... hullo Mom, this is Mark Bingham...." there are so many people willing to call them "callous" and accuse them of "insulting people who have just lost loved ones".

Sure, it was "successful" in the fact that it had the desired result, but here everything was done very clumsily - it could have been done far better.

The stupid, incompetent government didn't successfully pull all this off, the thousands of people who are only too eager to "cooperate" with government, did.  Fortunately the number of such people is decreasing by the day as more and more wake up to reality.

Perhaps these people are the real evil geniuses.
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MamaLiberty

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Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2009, 11:09:52 am »

I've read about these things, of course, but I don't spend a lot of time on them usually. First I try to determine just how much it would affect me if it were true, and then I try to figure out what I could do about it. If the answer is not much and nothing, then I have more important things to do... such as prepare the best I can for WHATEVER comes down the pike.

Somehow, it just doesn't seem to me that my survival in a Wyoming snowstorm is going to be affected by "camps" in California - or wherever, bad and unfortunate as they would turn out to be if true.  There's just a limit to what I can do about it.  And simply worrying about it doesn't accomplish anything.
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Basil Fishbone

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Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2009, 11:46:53 am »

Quote
I've read about these things, of course, but I don't spend a lot of time on them usually. First I try to determine just how much it would affect me if it were true, and then I try to figure out what I could do about it. If the answer is not much and nothing, then I have more important things to do... such as prepare the best I can for WHATEVER comes down the pike.

Somehow, it just doesn't seem to me that my survival in a Wyoming snowstorm is going to be affected by "camps" in California - or wherever, bad and unfortunate as they would turn out to be if true.  There's just a limit to what I can do about it.  And simply worrying about it doesn't accomplish anything.
Posted on: Today at 04:54:41 AM

Yet you can always find time to make a point like this.  Refusal to educate yourself about what the elites have done and are doing to us and plan to do to us makes you much less effective at helping to protect our liberty.  If martial law is declared Northcom is going to be very interested in rural Wyoming, particularly the northeast.
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Elias Alias

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Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2009, 11:51:53 am »

JFK..........I do believe there was a plan by government in this. After watching a series of video's and reading articles, it seems highly possible. They even tie the Bush family in on that one too as well as LBJ.

It was not necessarily "the government" - I think it was a few criminal-minded individuals who worked inside the government. There is a huge difference between "the government" and "criminals who've worked their way into seats of government power".

Quote
Going back to 9/11.......Klapton, I never knew Marvin Bush had these security ties. I went to bed last night thinking about that. Hmmmm.....


There is more to it than Marvin Bush's proximity to the WTC. I won't go into it here, but Wirt Walker was also involved.

Quote
But, I have to agree with mouse that GW's reaction at the school and the tear was authentic.
After this discussion last night, I started watching video's of the Booker Elementary School. I STILL believe that the president did what he ahd to do......remain calm.

Remaining calm is not what a President is supposed to do when he learns that his nation is under attack. Taking immediate action is what any President is supposed to do.

Quote
One crazy article said that he asked for a burger right afterward. Even if you believe he knew, do you actually believe he would ask to EAT?
I have to admit in my search last night too.....I ws surprised that Bush said he saw the first plane hit on tv. There was no way he saw it as this event did not show in the media until they had citizen video's .........so why he would say that is confusing to me.

Yup. You're totally correct - that was not shown on TV that morning; yet Bush-43 said twice in public that he saw the first plane hit the first tower. I've done a piece on that, which you may read here -

http://www.jeffersonrivercoalition.com/911_Unplugged.htm

Quote
Say all these conspiracy theories are true, like the 9/11 and Bush.
What is the purpose of the involvement of the gov? Money? Fame? Power? Perhaps it's naivete on my part, but I am looking for the WHY right now. What purpose would these things serve? Why?

Ah, you have put forward the question of the Century. The "why" of it all. I think I can actually furnish you with an answer to that question - at least, I can furnish an hypothetical explanation as to "why" false-flag operations are conducted by our clandestine services. It has to do with keeping most of 300 million Americans alive and well, and preserving the war-based Western Civilization until some surrogate for war can be installed.  The first premise I'll offer you is that psy-ops and black-ops are both undertaken under what the military and Intelligence communities call "Unconventional Warfare" - and the purpose of psy-ops is to affect public perception, direct focus in desirable ways, and promote beliefs which are advantageous to the agenda of government, which operates in mysterious ways to bind the union and defend the union. It's all very involved, but this view of how and why government employees (some of them, the secret-government ones who do the black ops and psy-ops, for example) will literally conduct terrorism on U.S. soil for the greater benefit of the mass of 300 million citizens, has substantial supporting evidence.

Salute! And Semper Fi!
Elias
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Elias Alias

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Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2009, 11:57:33 am »

In doing false flag operations, governments are able to alarm the public, and use the power of the controlled press, to convince them to acquiesce in the deliberate and planned destruction of the Bill of Rights, the imposition of a police state, diminishment of traditional, constitutional legal rights, property rights, privacy rights, all of it.   Historically, one of the clear uses for false flag operations is to be able to blame them on the country you wish to attack and in the course of your war, impose domestic controls.   Or they could be blamed on domestic opponents of the impending dictatorship, as an excuse to declare martial law and suspend the constitution.  Then they begin to try to round up those dissidents to put them in Haliburton's concentration camps ($385 million paid by the U.S. taxpayers)... door-to-door searches for guns ...

Bingo!

:)
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MamaLiberty

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Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2009, 01:34:27 pm »

Quote
Yet you can always find time to make a point like this.  Refusal to educate yourself about what the elites have done and are doing to us and plan to do to us makes you much less effective at helping to protect our liberty.  If martial law is declared Northcom is going to be very interested in rural Wyoming, particularly the northeast.

Basil, that was really uncalled for. I have studied government and politics for more than 40 years. Sorry if that's not good enough for you. The very depth and intensity of my study has brought me to the point where I know without question that there is NO "political solution" possible - and never was. If you still think so, then you are welcome to it.

I did not say I ignored them, I simply can't do anything about most of it. I am preparing myself for WHATEVER may happen here, including being willing and able to help defend my community. If martial law is declared, or mobs of criminals come from the cities, or whatever else actually happens, my preparations will be exactly the same. I will defend myself and my property from aggressors.

I'm simply not going to spend the time or emotional energy WORRYING about all this conspiracy stuff in detail. What the lords in Mordor plan don't really make a particle of difference in what I need to do here and now. Remember that once we've figured out WHAT they are, everything else is just haggling about the price.

If you want to worry, it's none of my affair. I just hate to see others sucked into that black hole when they could spend the time and energy in actual preparation. Everyone has to make up their own mind, of course.
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freewoman

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Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2009, 05:05:07 pm »

Quote
IOW.....post a new Conspiracy theory that is potentially dangerous to our sanity VS what is really happening?

I have been reading about conspiracy theory for over 25 years.  During that time I've come to the conclusion that all these conspiracies are dangerous to our sanity.  Because the true battle is for the mind. 

Do I believe there is an "elite" who is attempting to control people for their own purposes?  Yes.  Can I "do" anything about it?  Well, as far as stopping them, not really.  For several years, I refused to read conspiracy theory books or look the stuff up on the internet; it made my blood pressure go up, raised my anxiety levels, and generally wasn't a good thing.  However, I have a curiosity about it, so I kept coming back.

Eventually I found a solution to the paranoia that works for me.  I can only be myself; ultimately the only mind I can really control is my own.  I can't make the elite do what I want them to do.  So I work toward my own peace of mind, in my own way.  When someone asks my opinion on something, I do my best to educate them on what's happening.  I have studied some on the subject, and I have my own opinions.  But I feel it's important to remember that these people can only cause us to fear if we allow them to do so.

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Radio Flyer

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Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2009, 05:58:38 pm »

Would you guys be willing to help sort out the differences?
IOW.....post a new Conspiracy theory that is potentially dangerous to our sanity VS what is really happening?
For example, have "they" already started these "camps"? So many people are saying they have!
If possible.......please don't just keep the topic on "camps" but bring in other theories. I have heard several.

Welcome Linda, in fact I am also encouraged by all the new people, including yourself. (I was new once, even had many of my ideas challenged, well and without the typical nastiness). I don't normally hit this part of the board.

I for one do not believe in the typical "conspiracies" in fact I even give the Masons a big pass, as I think their time is over, and their goals were meet with the American Revolution, and possibly trounced again by the Hamiltonians. I do believe they have influence but it nothing compared to other modern power brokers.

I DO believe in collusion, and the subsequent "real" conspiracies many have come to light in past years. I don't believe in some huge "star chamber" but I do think that some of the hugely powerful "ole boys" clubs have very real power, say the CFR, or AIPAC, Bilderberg conference, Trilateral Commission, and to a lessor extent gatherings of power-brokers at events like Bohemian Grove.

My point is that the elite and powerful don't have to even meet to agree, in many cases they are related (powerful rich families marry into other powerful or rich families), they all go to the same exclusive schools, and are members of the same fraternities and social clubs. They don't need to have a huge central plan they simply all "think the same" and have the same goals of concentrating power and wealth - simple self interest!

From this large elite, selfish, and incestuous interrelated relationships come the smaller lickspittles and toadies, who are often given marching orders, and often that could be seen as the "real" conspiracies. Many are well documented because of this I do not "out of hand" dismiss many of the underlying issues nor discount the influance of many powerful religious groups accused of this like the Vatican, Mormons, and even social/religious groups like the Freemasons.

I'm simply not going to spend the time or emotional energy WORRYING about all this conspiracy stuff in detail. What the lords in Mordor plan don't really make a particle of difference in what I need to do here and now. Remember that once we've figured out WHAT they are, everything else is just haggling about the price.

If you want to worry, it's none of my affair. I just hate to see others sucked into that black hole when they could spend the time and energy in actual preparation. Everyone has to make up their own mind, of course.

I have to agree with ML on this one, no reason to worry too much, outside of identifying who is waiting to shackle our feet, and REMEMBERING this when it will count. My opinion is that the elite have overstepped their bounds, the economy is going to crash, and the resulting violence will drop the population in the US by 1/2 to 3/4 or more, I am using the riots of LA and the Katrina mess as an example, imagine that in full force nation wide.
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SoupMonkey

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Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2009, 08:45:33 pm »

If Stanton had not strangled Lincoln and Oswald had not been Kennedy's love child, via Elenore Roosevelt,
then Reagen would not have bombed the Bush ranch and Obama would be bothering tourists on the streets
of Honolulu "Yo man, sell you the whole stick for five dollar".
You guys are so educational!
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mouse

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Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2009, 10:55:09 pm »

I've read about these things, of course, but I don't spend a lot of time on them usually. First I try to determine just how much it would affect me if it were true, and then I try to figure out what I could do about it. If the answer is not much and nothing, then I have more important things to do... such as prepare the best I can for WHATEVER comes down the pike.

Somehow, it just doesn't seem to me that my survival in a Wyoming snowstorm is going to be affected by "camps" in California - or wherever, bad and unfortunate as they would turn out to be if true.  There's just a limit to what I can do about it.  And simply worrying about it doesn't accomplish anything.

All it takes for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing! (or words to that effect)
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jimoutside

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Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2009, 11:34:27 pm »

One thing that bugs me about 911-- I'm not trying to be smart here, just want somebody to answer my question because this doesn't make sense to me.

I've heard it said by several people that it could not have been an aircraft that hit the Pentagon, because it did not leave a big enough hole.

Ok, so maybe it was a missile or something. Amazingly, they say it didn't do a whole lot of serious damage or loss of life on the ground, because that part of the building was being revamped. OK. Got that part. Interesting.

BUT-- what happened to that fourth plane that we were told hit the Pentagon? What happened to all those people? We have been told there were four crashes. One at the Pentagon, one in a field in PA, and two into the twin towers. So-- if not the fourth plane that hit that building, where did the fourth plane crash? In the ocean? And why bother doing that-- wasting that plane on a dud run-- when they (whoever REALLY did mastermind it all) when that plane could have been used to actually hit another target?

Do you say that the fourth plane never existed? That would take a big coverup by the airlines personnel. With all the employees in the airlines, somebody surely would have come forward and said, there never was a fourth plane? We were told there were four-- where did they all go? And why use a missile to hit the Pentagon when you have already hijacked a plane to hit it?

Where did all four planes end up?
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oxi

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Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2009, 03:56:52 am »

As for the Pentagon plane, you would have to look at the time frame.  The time frame when NORAD and the FAA ordered all planes to land.  That civilian airliner that supposedly hit the Pentagon could have been ordered to land at a military base or something, their are plenty of ones around Washignton and one huge one on Long Island...

That could explain a possible drone type plane taking off and striking the Pentagon, after all the air traffic controllers were busy trying to land all these aircraft and with that chaos is when things could have been conducted...

While most were shocked when 9/11 happened would have been the best time to conduct their plans...

Also can you confirm those were United and American Airlines planes that hit the towers?  Is their visual evidence?  Those could have been any type of aircraft, maybe unmarked or something...
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 03:58:36 am by oxi »
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