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[Mad Wet Hen]

True there are still times I forget that I am worth something. But when my husband smiles at me because I gave him his meal in the bedroom so he can still play his favorite games or when he wants to go to the mail box and has to have me drive him I feel like I am worth something. It may sound funny that these little things mean so much to me but the look on his face is priceless. Also when I learn something new or help someone learn something that too makes me see I am useful.

[jimoutside]

Don't give up hope, Cordo. I agree with most everything you said in your initial post. As for faith, my Christian faith, and the way I read the Bible, it does not put down women or say they are inferior to men-- in fact Adam was more at fault for the Garden of Eden sin-- Eve was deceived by the serpent, and was not as much to blame as Adam was because he ate the fruit without being deceived. I believe the Bible assigns different rolls to women than it does to men, but it also points out that women's rolls are just as important as men, and when a man is not available to do a man's roll, a woman might have to step in to do it. Look at the women of the Bible, and you will find leadership rolls, such as by Deborah, Jael, Esther, Lydia, Dorcas, Lois, Eunice, and others who took leadership rolls or showed initiative to accomplish things. Please don't give up on God. He loves you as much as he loves anyone, and he has a lot of good in store for you if you let him. I hope your early life experiences will not keep you from reaching out and accepting the gifts that God has for you today. :-)

[Mad Wet Hen]

No I will never give up on God I know he is there and always will be. I was just pointing out that one can be taught one thing and still learn and make something of themselves. I also don't want women in these hard times to forget they are needed as much as men.

[iloilo]

Just to clarify:
I don't think God or Jesus has anything at all against women, but still, the guys who wrote the Bible sure put in a lot of stuff which was easily interpreted by priests and ministers as blaming the fall on women, and showing women as objects for the use of men.

Again, this has nothing to do with God or Jesus, both of whom have been given a bad rap by religion and the Bible, as far as I am concerned.
ff

[Moonbeam]

cordobablue - Thank you for the original post (((HUGS)))

[spatter]

when I was a little girl my dad said that girls where not equal to boys that girls needed boy to keep them from making the same mistakes as Eve did. He also told me to think twice before I did anything then think again, that way I would have a better chance of doing the right thing.

I can't imagine.  My father kept repeating "You don't need a man to make it."  The best thing a girl can have is a father who respects and encourages her.

Spatter

[Bear]

When my daughter first started to drive our Jeep, the first thing
I taught her was how to change the tire without having to use
lot of upper body strength. I told her flat out, that I won't always
be there to solve her problems, so she might as well learn how to
take care of herself. (She already figured out that relying on the
kindness of strangers was not a wise strategy.) I also showed her
how to change the oil and check most of the fluids on the Jeep.

She's not a motor head, but she can do these things for herself
if she needs to.

I also answered all of her questions to the best of my ability
(limited by her interest in the answer) . I wasn't trying to
make her into a son, but to help build the best prepared young
adult I could.

The funny thing is that she has since discovered that she has
an understanding of a lot of things her friends have no clue
about. It's sad that more parents don't talk to their kids around
the dinner table.

Bear

[Mad Wet Hen]

Well if it had not been for my late ex husband me and my 2 daughters would be up a creek with out a pedal. My oldest daughters husband know nothing about cars but how to put gas in and drive. My youngest daughter has joined the NG thinking she would be of some use there.Her husband said it was to dangerous for him to join and that he would take care of their little boy. I don't like that my little girl is in the military but that was her chose. At least her husband didn't get his way, he wanted her to go full Army.
I am sorry that you can't imagine a dad saying that girls weren't equal to boys but he did.
At least I can now stand on my own two feet without feeling that I can't take care of anything that is thrown against me. God is always there to hold my hand and with God all things are possible.

[gaurdduck]

Now someone needs to make a thread titled: "What single guys should know about girls".
Preferably written by the girls, and made VERY simple, in layman's terms.

[Klapton Isgod]

I'd make a thread on what women need to know about men, but Dave Chappelle has it covered perfectly...  The list is only four things long.  (jump to 2:10 )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZRflz-93JA&feature=related

[gaurdduck]

Not at all, his list of 4 things, only got 1 important thing: be a good cook. I think he said "make a sandwich", but I'm looking for a wife, and while I intend to procreate, That is not the sole purpose of a relationship. Love is by far the most important aspect of a relationship betwixt a man and a woman. Next is food...

[Lazarus Long]

This is an interesting thread, and has stirred up various things that have been simmering for a while under the surface in this corner of my mind. Read on and tell me if my cooking's any good...

I don't believe that when taken as a whole, the Bible puts women on a lower footing than men. Can it be twisted to put women down? Certainly. It can also be twisted and taken out of context any number of other ways.

We read from the Bible most days at our house, and I would consider my teaching and example to be a miserable failure if my daughter gets the impression that the female sex has any less worth or potential than the male. Unlike some Christians I know, I'm not into pulling verses out of their context as part of the whole Bible. I try to find the common threads that run through the whole Bible, and see the overriding message. What I gather from the book as a whole isn't about condemnation, damnation, oppression, hatred, or misogyny.*

For the record, I include my daughter, as much as she can stand it, in everything from auto repairs, to shooting, to gulch security planning. I think a gulching mindset is conducive to equality and mutual respect between the sexes, because without the fragile division of labor inherent in cities, men and women are forced to rely on each other more to accomplish everything necessary for survival, let alone prosperity.

While I don't deny that women have been unfairly and viciously put down by various "Christian" individuals and institutions throughout history, it is interesting to look around the world today and see which areas afford women the most freedom compared to men, both legally and culturally. By this I mean places where women are afforded equality before the law, and are actually free to assert it without eliciting threats to life and liberty. I'm thinking of the USA, Canada, Northern Europe, Australia, New Zealand, and Israel. As opposed to Africa, the Muslim world, East Asia, or Latin America. With the exception of Israel, all of the former group have generally Protestant underpinnings. Is this just a coincidence? (Or, to be fair, could the unusually liberated state of women in these countries actually be due to pre-Christian religions?)

I admit that I'm painting with a broad brush here, and have glossed over Argentina, Chile, Uruguay, South Africa, and the matriarchal aspects of many African and east Asian cultures, as well as the way Catholicism has skewed the demographics.

I think Adam actually comes out worse than Eve in the Garden of Eden story. While Eve made a conscious choice to sin, Adam just followed her example without question, and then tried to dodge responsibility for his own actions later... by blaming it on Eve. So in a way, you could say he was both pussywhipped and a coward.

If the Gospels are to be believed, Jesus himself treated women - even "loose" women - as human beings and equals in a way that was shocking to his orthodox Jewish counterparts.

I just don't see the Bible as the fount of misogyny that some of you apparently do.

To be fair here, I should mention my wife, who is one of the sanest, funniest, and least hung-up individuals of either sex that I've had the privilege of knowing. She was not raised a Christian, but nominally Buddhist. Read into that what you will. She's not a bra-burner, but she seems freer in her head than I am, in terms of not caring what other people think, and being able to just ignore things that would stress and preoccupy me. (She converted to Christianity as an adult a few years before I met her. She says that a loving God was revolutionary to her, and something that her Buddhist education had neither hinted at nor really prepared her for.)

Note:  The life and teachings of Jesus Christ stand head and shoulders above any other spiritual tradition I have encountered, but also I see much of value in the Tao te Ching, as well as the teachings of Buddha. However, I know about as many hypocritical Buddhists as I do hypocritical Christians, which is to say, a lot. I've seen Taoist temples in the East, but the Tao seems better embodied in anarchists I know than in religious people who burn incense before idols.

__________________________________________________________

*There are portions of the New Testament which seem to me to serve us better as history, to be learned from, rather than an exact model to be followed - I'm thinking specifically of the book of Acts and parts of the epistles. If I treat the Bible as a huge list of rules to be followed for fear of hellfire, it seems to contradict itself and generally confuse me. If I treat it as a contextual whole and look for the overriding themes, I see a book about love and redemption. It's a terrible shame to lose sight of the forest for the trees when you're trying to untangle the meaning of life.

[Lazarus Long]

In response to the original post in this thread, Cordobablue, I think your assertion is so general as to be meaningless. It is true of many women I know, and equally untrue of others. Some men have many of these qualities, and others have less. Frankly, I think some of them might even apply to gay baby whales. Some people are good, some people are bad, and most are in between. And good luck sorting them out, anyway.

Generalizations and stereotypes are useful tools for dealing with large data sets. But they're also tricky tools to wield. If you aren't careful, someone may lose a finger.

However, viewed as a list of good qualities to aspire to, your post could certainly inspire a person who is going through a rough patch or is otherwise in need of encouragement. Many here have taken it that way, so more power to you. At least, all of my fingers are still attached. 

[Mad Wet Hen]

I have removed the first post in this thread do to the fact of the pain it has now caused me. I will not feel like I have done something wrong for trying to help others that may not feel good about themselves when they are trying very hard to be the best they can be. Sorry I ever posted this in the first place.

[Lazarus Long]

Wow, cordobablue.

Your first post started a thoughtful, rigorous discussion about a number of associated issues, which to me is a good thing.

My response to your post was not a personal attack, but just meant to point out that it was overly general. I don't know how many I speak for here when I say this, but I personally would rather that my friends question or shoot down my faulty ideas rather than just pat me on the back. I consider it a favor and a complement when they take the time to engage me in discussion and try to keep me honest.

You might keep in mind that many differing viewpoints are represented here, and it's the nature of this forum for assertions of fact to be questioned. If you post your plans for a chicken coop, you will probably get all kinds of useful suggestions, some along the lines of, "If you build it THAT way, the foxes will be helping themselves." If you post an inspirational piece, it may get critiqued in a similar way. It's not a personal attack, per se.

I for one am glad you are here, and hope you will stick around. I apologize that my response came across as overly harsh, although I still stand by its point.

Bless you,

LL