The Mental Militia Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down

Author Topic: Alittle 2nd Amendment action worthy of a belly laugh for you gentlemen.  (Read 8304 times)

velojym

  • Guest
Re: Alittle 2nd Amendment action worthy of a belly laugh for you gentlemen.
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2009, 06:53:11 pm »

So, I guess we need a Bureau of eFFing Standards to keep track of what constitutes a "reasonable" level of eff'ing.
Wait... that's been tried, and it ain't working so well. Turns out it's kinda hard to force a "one size fits all justice" scheme.

While I've seen this story before (in Urban myth circles), I think the idea would be to eFF back to an extent that the perps
should be less willing to instigate this sort of thing, but not so much that you lose the moral high ground, resulting in possible
shunning by your neighbors. I mean, how is the above even close to stealing a car and raping someone's wife over a T.P. incident?
That's pretty common hyperbole, useful when ya just don't have a logical argument.
Kinda like the jerks who think the 2nd Amendment protects "every red-blooded man's right to kill the wife and kids" (don't remember where I read that, but
it seems pretty ubiquitous in the grabber crowd).

...and, yeah, I see where there may have been a bit of sarcasm there, but it isn't always perceived that way.
Logged

american4life

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 36
  • I'm not prejudice. I hate all politicans equally
Re: Alittle 2nd Amendment action worthy of a belly laugh for you gentlemen.
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2009, 06:58:57 pm »

Ok klapton, I understand. But I do believe if I was minding my own business and taking care of what is mine why do you have the right to "Fuck" with me?? Sarcastic or not ... I do tend to myself and family. I do not go out of my way to "fuck" with somebody,just because i think it's funny. And btw if you eat my lunch today go ahead and do it tomorrow, see what you get..
Logged

Who...me?

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2203
Re: Alittle 2nd Amendment action worthy of a belly laugh for you gentlemen.
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2009, 07:27:10 pm »

Ok klapton, I understand. But I do believe if I was minding my own business and taking care of what is mine why do you have the right to "Fuck" with me?? Sarcastic or not ... I do tend to myself and family. I do not go out of my way to "fuck" with somebody,just because i think it's funny. And btw if you eat my lunch today go ahead and do it tomorrow, see what you get..

I remember reading an article awhile ago about a guy that was having is lunch stolen at work ,apparently allot, so he loaded his lunch up with heavy duty laxatives. Sure enough the next day his lunch was gone and one of his fellow employees developed a bad case of the Hershey squirts. I guess the guy laughed at him and said see thats what ya get for eating my lunch. Not only did he loose his job but was arrested for assault.
Logged
"If you are in a fair fight, Your tactics suck"

"The kind of man who demands that government enforce his ideas is always the kind whose ideas are idiotic." - H. L. Mencken

velojym

  • Guest
Re: Alittle 2nd Amendment action worthy of a belly laugh for you gentlemen.
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2009, 07:43:59 pm »

Ok klapton, I understand. But I do believe if I was minding my own business and taking care of what is mine why do you have the right to "Fuck" with me?? Sarcastic or not ... I do tend to myself and family. I do not go out of my way to "fuck" with somebody,just because i think it's funny. And btw if you eat my lunch today go ahead and do it tomorrow, see what you get..

I remember reading an article awhile ago about a guy that was having is lunch stolen at work ,apparently allot, so he loaded his lunch up with heavy duty laxatives. Sure enough the next day his lunch was gone and one of his fellow employees developed a bad case of the Hershey squirts. I guess the guy laughed at him and said see thats what ya get for eating my lunch. Not only did he loose his job but was arrested for assault.

Geez, I guess we oughta stop using peanut butter in our sandwiches. If someone with peanut allergies steals my lunch, I could be in some trouble.
Logged

Lenny

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1552
Re: Alittle 2nd Amendment action worthy of a belly laugh for you gentlemen.
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2009, 08:07:18 pm »

Then why did you say it?? Remember I was not the one effin with you in the first place.....

The statement "you eff with me, I eff with you" was quoted from Joker, to whom I was replying. He said, "The mugger wanted to fuck with the couple, and he got fucked. What's the problem?" The problem is, just as Klapton said, that you can't make up any old penalty you want. You can't suddenly decide that borrowing your hammer and not returning it calls for the death penalty. To quote the original post., you can't decide that attempted mugging merits "threatening phone calls to the DA's office" with his cell phone, which could quite conceivably get the mugger killed.

Under ZAP, the only penalty you can justify is (1) restitutive, and (2) proportional.

So as Klapton said (and he nailed me, I admit) I thought Private Joker would get the point if I proposed to punish minor mischief by stealing his car. Your reply suggested that the point wasn't coming across, so I made up another example with an even smaller offense and an even more outrageous made-up penalty. The point I was trying to make is that you can't just pull any old penalty out of your pooper.  ^_^
Logged

Lenny

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1552
Re: Alittle 2nd Amendment action worthy of a belly laugh for you gentlemen.
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2009, 08:16:59 pm »

Ok klapton, I understand. But I do believe if I was minding my own business and taking care of what is mine why do you have the right to "Fuck" with me?

Nobody has that right. And you can defend yourself, up to and including lethal force if necessary. If the danger is past, you can recover your stolen property (or equivalent value), using as much force as necessary but no more. You can charge him for your time and trouble, even. Or you can hire a theft-recovery service, and they can force him to pay their fee.

But there are limits. You can't decide that stealing $5 off you merits a $5,000,000.00 fine to "teach him a lesson." You can't kidnap him and sell him off as a sex slave to a gay brothel. You can't just do any old thing you want. The reason for these limits is that force is justified only in defense of self or property. When you go beyond the force needed to repel the attack and/or restore the damage, then your extra force isn't justified; it's a fresh crime by you against your attacker.

Where the line goes is somewhat fuzzy. First principles don't tell us that you can charge a 100% penalty, but not a 200% penalty, or that you can charge $100 for time and trouble, but not $200.

Practical considerations take care of it, though. It's against your best interests to make a demand so excessive that the mugger will decide he has nothing to lose, and try his darndest to kill you. Or so excessive that the other townsfolk decide to view you as the aggressor and help him resist you with deadly force. Or even just "pretty excessive," to the point that you'll never collect the damages. You want to demand damages that bystanders will consider more-or-less reasonable, and that you have some hope in hell of actually collecting. For these reasons, you'll also find it to your advantage to use arbitration to set the damages, even though you're not morally required to. It increases your chances of collecting, and decreases the chances that the guilty party and his friends and relations will decide to start a shooting war over it.
Logged

Lenny

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1552
Re: Alittle 2nd Amendment action worthy of a belly laugh for you gentlemen.
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2009, 08:28:47 pm »

I remember reading an article awhile ago about a guy that was having is lunch stolen at work ,apparently allot, so he loaded his lunch up with heavy duty laxatives. Sure enough the next day his lunch was gone and one of his fellow employees developed a bad case of the Hershey squirts. I guess the guy laughed at him and said see thats what ya get for eating my lunch. Not only did he loose his job but was arrested for assault.

See, that sounds like an unjust verdict. He didn't assault anyone; he left a lunch containing laxatives in the fridge clearly labeled with his own name. The other guy is the one who took and ate it, suffering the consequences. I'd consider that on the same level as hurting yourself while robbing a house: it's your fault for committing the crime in the first place.

Technically, it's consistent with the ZAP to bury land mines on your property as well. If you take reasonable precautions against accidents, like fencing in your property, posting "No Trespassing" signs, etc., then it's the trespasser's fault if he violates your property and happens to step on a bouncing Betty. In the present-day United States, that would also get you unjustly punished.

True story: when I lived in upstate New York, I had a neighbor who was really rabid about locals trespassing on his land in hunting season. He did all sorts of crazy things. One of them was to stand on his back porch and spray the woods with gunfire. He "reasoned" that a man has a right to target-practice in his own yard--and if trespassers turn up where they don't belong and get shot, it's their own durn fault.

Ironically, he'd be within his rights doing that in a free society. He'd be liable for damages for every stray shot off his land, and he'd suffer all sorts of social sanctions, but he'd be perfectly free to shoot on his own land. In real-life New York, though, he'd rot in jail forever if he managed to hit a trespasser.
Logged

Who...me?

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2203
Re: Alittle 2nd Amendment action worthy of a belly laugh for you gentlemen.
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2009, 09:09:59 pm »

Quote
See, that sounds like an unjust verdict. He didn't assault anyone; he left a lunch containing laxatives in the fridge clearly labeled with his own name. The other guy is the one who took and ate it, suffering the consequences. I'd consider that on the same level as hurting yourself while robbing a house: it's your fault for committing the crime in the first place.

Ya that was my reaction at the time. 
Logged
"If you are in a fair fight, Your tactics suck"

"The kind of man who demands that government enforce his ideas is always the kind whose ideas are idiotic." - H. L. Mencken

macman2k

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 230
Re: Alittle 2nd Amendment action worthy of a belly laugh for you gentlemen.
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2009, 08:48:16 am »


See, that sounds like an unjust verdict. He didn't assault anyone; he left a lunch containing laxatives in the fridge clearly labeled with his own name. The other guy is the one who took and ate it, suffering the consequences. I'd consider that on the same level as hurting yourself while robbing a house: it's your fault for committing the crime in the first place.

Technically, it's consistent with the ZAP to bury land mines on your property as well. If you take reasonable precautions against accidents, like fencing in your property, posting "No Trespassing" signs, etc., then it's the trespasser's fault if he violates your property and happens to step on a bouncing Betty. In the present-day United States, that would also get you unjustly punished.

True story: when I lived in upstate New York, I had a neighbor who was really rabid about locals trespassing on his land in hunting season. He did all sorts of crazy things. One of them was to stand on his back porch and spray the woods with gunfire. He "reasoned" that a man has a right to target-practice in his own yard--and if trespassers turn up where they don't belong and get shot, it's their own durn fault.

Ironically, he'd be within his rights doing that in a free society. He'd be liable for damages for every stray shot off his land, and he'd suffer all sorts of social sanctions, but he'd be perfectly free to shoot on his own land. In real-life New York, though, he'd rot in jail forever if he managed to hit a trespasser.

There is a certain degree of personal responsibility you must take when firing a gun and that is to know what it is pointed at.   Even in a free society, killing someone due to negligence (even if they are on your property) is not justified and you could be held liable by their friends and family.  You must establish that they have INTENT TO HARM, and you must request they leave and use the least amount of force to do so.  Suppose the individual was a kid who could not read your signs who was just trying to track down his runaway dog (to prevent his dog from getting your chickens).   



Logged

Lenny

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1552
Re: Alittle 2nd Amendment action worthy of a belly laugh for you gentlemen.
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2009, 01:10:20 pm »

Even in a free society, killing someone due to negligence (even if they are on your property) is not justified and you could be held liable by their friends and family.  You must establish that they have INTENT TO HARM, and you must request they leave and use the least amount of force to do so...

You've summarized the current law very well, and I mostly agree with you about how things would be in a free society. But I don't have to establish intent to harm if I'm not defending myself. If I'm shooting a target, for example, and some neighbor wanders into the shooting range unbeknownst to me and gets himself shot, it's his negligence that's responsible for the accident, so I'm in the clear. Doubly so if he happens to be trespassing intentionally, or stealing my chickens.

Quote
Suppose the individual was a kid who could not read your signs who was just trying to track down his runaway dog (to prevent his dog from getting your chickens).

That would certainly tug at my heart-strings. And if I blew him away intentionally, it might well be murder. But again if he wanders into my shooting range and gets himself shot, then that's an accident and it's presumptively his fault.
Logged

american4life

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 36
  • I'm not prejudice. I hate all politicans equally
Re: Alittle 2nd Amendment action worthy of a belly laugh for you gentlemen.
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2009, 06:00:47 pm »

Lenny, It's called the Castle Doctrine here look it up... Maybe all states need to take lessons...
Logged

Lenny

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1552
Re: Alittle 2nd Amendment action worthy of a belly laugh for you gentlemen.
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2009, 06:15:02 pm »

Lenny, It's called the Castle Doctrine here look it up... Maybe all states need to take lessons...

I'm not sure what that's in reply to, of my several posts in this thread.

Sure, I agree with the castle doctrine. But it doesn't give infinite protection. If an invited guest threatens your life and you defend yourself, that's justifiable, but not under the castle doctrine. As an invited guest he isn't an invader, and his mere presence can't be interpreted as evidence of hostile intent. It also doesn't cover every type of uninvited presence. If someone rings your front doorbell and you shoot him, you're a murderer. If you don't do anything, but your porch caves in and kills him, you're probably guilty of negligent homicide. And even a hostile invader is off limits after he ceases threatening and leaves your property. You can't pursue him down the street and shoot him. Even if he broke your windows, killed your dog and scratched your Ferrari.
Logged

Klapton Isgod

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4193
  • Long-Haired, Over-Fed, Leaping Gnome
Re: Alittle 2nd Amendment action worthy of a belly laugh for you gentlemen.
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2009, 06:36:07 pm »

I think he answered pretty well when he explained how ANY group of people tied together by whatever (culture, religion, ethnicity, ideology) tends to protect "their own."  So, there is plenty of opportunity for any of these groups to behave in a "conspiratorial" fashion.  And it also makes perfect sense that among the wealthy, powerful elite, there are people who are "in" who will help others to get "in" based on ethnicity, what university they went to, what church or synagogue they belong to, masonic lodge --- whatever.

One answer for why Jews are over-represented among the wealthy elite is simply "because it's always been that way."  By that I mean, sons inherit wealth from their fathers.  Their father's friends help them out because "Oh, you're Abe Goldberg's son!  Yeah, I'll put in a good word for you."  etc. etc. etc.  This is NOT a sinister conspiracy, this is just the way any "good old boy" network naturally works.  So, the existence of Jews in the banking business, for example, could probably be traced all the way back to Medieval Europe when they were essentially forced to be the bankers, because of usery laws within Catholic Europe.

Anyway...  RF is definitely right about people being afraid to say stuff because oh noes, the PC police are going to call me racist.  But I also stand by my assertion that with enough money, and kissing the right asses (and many of them would probably be Jewish) it is certainly possible for anyone of any ethnicity to get "in".  We've even got a black president now, right?  He certainly didn't get that gig without being pre-approved by our Shadowy Overlords.
Logged
"I got things under control, that's why people call me an extremist.  I'm autonomous.  I understand that I declare my independence every day."  Ted Nugent

"It is the conservative laissez- fairist, the man who puts all the guns and all the decision-making power into the hands of the central government and then says, 'Limit yourself'; it is he who is truly the impractical utopian."  Murray Rothbard

Lenny

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1552
Re: Alittle 2nd Amendment action worthy of a belly laugh for you gentlemen.
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2009, 06:43:11 pm »

I think he answered pretty well when he explained how ANY group of people tied together by whatever (culture, religion, ethnicity, ideology) tends to protect "their own."  So, there is plenty of opportunity for any of these groups to behave in a "conspiratorial" fashion...

That's true enough--in fact so true it's basically trite. Everywhere you look it's going on. Family protects family; cops protect cops; friends protect friends; etc., etc. Citing a particular instance of it is hardly ever pointful, although it sometimes is. It's for this reason I haven't rejected my hypothesis... yet. I'm open to new data.

Shall we chat about how Irish protect Irish, vis a vis the history of Chicago now? There's a reason the stereotypical cop is Irish... and Obama is from Chicago... perhaps the Irish have taken over the country? They're probably still sore that the last time they took over, their boy was assassinated...  :ph34r:
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up