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Author Topic: The Market Loves Linux (That's Why It's Thriving)  (Read 17525 times)

MamaLiberty

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Re: The Market Loves Linux (That's Why It's Thriving)
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2008, 01:57:06 pm »

I don't know why everyone seems to assume that I'm automatically insisting that Linux be the same as MS.  If I buy a Marlin lever action 30-30, I'm not going to expect it to work like an AR15... and why would I want it to?

I'm talking about market viability. These are two quite different subjects.

For my personal use, right now, I'm happy with the MS because it's doing the job I need it to do and I already own it. Yes, it has problems. It's like driving a 15 year old car. There are trade-offs. I'm sort of looking at newer cars right now, kicking the tires so to speak, and counting my money to see if this is a good time for me to contemplate a change. I'm not at all against learning new things or building things, but they have to be things I can't get any other way and which I can afford.

Since I already HAVE a new box and system that I'm not using, it's unlikely I can see my way clear to buying ANOTHER box and system. I'm still very much open to the idea of a techy visitor and barter help to set up the new box I've got. There just is no way I can contemplate trying it on my own.

I did look at the Dell stuff. I've dealt with them before... and it's not a happy memory. Be that as it may, the desktop is a bit expensive for what you get. And I don't need a 4th monitor in this room. One of the problems with Dell is this package deal thing.

My Components
Intel® Pentium® dual-core processor E2180 (1MB L2, 2.0GHz, 800FSB)
Ubuntu 8.04 with DVD Playback
19 inch SE198WFP Widescreen Digital Flat Panel Monitor
2GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 800MHz- 2DIMMs
250GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache™
16x DVD+/-RW Drive
Integrated Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 3100
Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio
Dell USB Keyboard and Dell Optical USB Mouse
No Floppy Drive Included
My Software & Accessories
No speakers (Speakers are required to hear audio from your system)
My Service
1Yr Ltd Hardware Warranty, InHome Service after Remote Diagnosis
Also Includes
No Modem Option
Mouse included in Wireless, Laser or Bluetooth Package
Integrated 10/100 Ethernet
Award Winning Service and Support
No Security
No Productivity software pre-installed

First it says "my software and accessories" and then it says it has no productivity software. Which is it? Does this mean I'd have all the fun of trying to download and install things, having NO idea how or who to ask about it. Not a good place for me. And what's this "no modem option"? Does that mean it comes without a modem? I'm not sure how to read some of these things, but it's not too promising.

No security? What does that mean? I thought that's what this Linux thing was all about! 

"Award winning service and support"... which awards and by whom? <G> Geeks or regular old lady customers. LOL

Will look more at the customization options, but they look mighty expensive - those I understand.

So, while this is a big step in the right direction, I don't see this Linux stuff exactly ready to sell at WalMart. :) Keep plugging...

I'm going to go look at other on line computer stores and see if they have any Linux, just for kicks. :)
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Bill St. Clair

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Re: The Market Loves Linux (That's Why It's Thriving)
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2008, 04:30:59 pm »

Wal-Mart used to sell Linux desktop systems, for incredibly low prices, but they appear to have dropped them. Didn't sell, I guess. Now they have a little Acer 9" machine with Linpus Linux, whatever that is, but no other choice.
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Myrkul

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Re: The Market Loves Linux (That's Why It's Thriving)
« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2008, 10:03:59 am »

ML, I'd be willing to put together a system, install Linux on it, and get it set up and ready to go with Kompozer and whatnot, to give you essentially a plug-and-play experience. It might end up being cheaper than Dell, because All you need is the tower, not the monitor, keyboard, and mouse, and Ubuntu doesn't need high-end hardware to run well. If You're interested, PM me and I'll work out a quote. (that offer goes for anyone here on the boards. :) )
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MamaLiberty

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Re: The Market Loves Linux (That's Why It's Thriving)
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2008, 10:57:44 am »

ML, I'd be willing to put together a system, install Linux on it, and get it set up and ready to go with Kompozer and whatnot, to give you essentially a plug-and-play experience. It might end up being cheaper than Dell, because All you need is the tower, not the monitor, keyboard, and mouse, and Ubuntu doesn't need high-end hardware to run well. If You're interested, PM me and I'll work out a quote. (that offer goes for anyone here on the boards. :) )

Well, that sounds pretty good, depending on the logistics.

The new box (tower) I have is an E Machine, 2.53 GHz, 325 Intel Celeron D Processor, 512 MB RAM and a 40 GB hard drive. Lots of other names and numbers on the thing... ask if I missed something. Don't need any monitors, keyboards or mice... especially not any kind of mice!! I use a Logistics trackball and wouldn't trade it for much of anything.

The old box is a Compac Presario, AMD Athlon 1.67 GHz, 224 MB Ram and I don't remember the size of the hard drive, but it's pretty full. <G>  There are signs that the hard drive MAY be trying to crap out, which is why I got the other box. But I have not been able to install the Dreamweaver on it, so have never used it.  So, I sit with one foot on the dock and one on a ship that may set sail any minute.

I don't have $500., and probably won't for a while. I have a publisher for my book now, but maybe a year's worth of editing and rewrites before I can send it off... though I'm going to try to finish it this winter. <G>

So, what can we use for barter? Need a pair of handmade leather moccasins? A leather and brocade vest? Both? You going to come help me eat this antelope?  :rolleyes:
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Rick N

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Re: The Market Loves Linux (That's Why It's Thriving)
« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2008, 11:02:55 am »

The way I see it, Linux is fit to be used by three types of users.

1) People who derive pleasure from boxing with their computers
2) People who can do everything they need to do with a default Ubuntu install, without any additional software or drivers
3) Linux developers

I've used Linux on-and-off for a number of years. I've tried quite a few distributions--namely, Redhat, Slackware, Gentoo, and Ubuntu. The fact of the matter is this--no matter how much they tart up Linux with graphical installers and fancy Quartz-type UI effects, it's built on an extremely painful and intimidating foundation from a time when the ordinary operation of a computer was something performed only by grad students capable of writing shell scripts, editing text configuration files by hand, and building apps from source.

I guess the good thing about trying to actually use Linux is that you'll get really good at using your Web search engine, because if you don't know how to Google error messages ranging from the intuitive to the indecipherable you're sunk.

So, what can we use for barter? Need a pair of handmade leather moccasins? A leather and brocade vest? Both? You going to come help me eat this antelope?  :rolleyes:

This thread reads like an argument between a college-age Linux fanboy and a character from an L. Neil Smith novel. o_O
« Last Edit: September 17, 2008, 11:07:12 am by Rick N »
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MamaLiberty

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Re: The Market Loves Linux (That's Why It's Thriving)
« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2008, 11:13:09 am »

Quote
This thread reads like an argument between a college-age Linux fanboy and a character from an L. Neil Smith novel. o_O

LOL!!!
More than one person has compared me to Lucy Kropotkin - but they are being overly kind. I'd never live up to that legend. :)
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Myrkul

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Re: The Market Loves Linux (That's Why It's Thriving)
« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2008, 11:23:46 am »

This thread reads like an argument between a college-age Linux fanboy and a character from an L. Neil Smith novel. o_O

I guess that makes me the Fanboy, eh? Well, If that fanboy were ALSO a character from an L. Neil Smith novel, yeah, I guess.

Unfortunately, since I'd have to expend some of my (very) limited supply of FRNs to buy the hardware and ship it to you, I can't take Pure barter. Those moccasins sound sooooo nice though. I was thinking: (cost + shipping) + 1 Silver dollar (or equivalent in Goods). I'll talk to my father-in-law to see what my parts cost would be.
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MamaLiberty

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Re: The Market Loves Linux (That's Why It's Thriving)
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2008, 11:32:56 am »

What if I sent you a brand new, compatible hard drive for the new machine? Could you program it and send it back without too much cost? I could certainly pay that much. And you can have the moccasins in any case. :)

If I had that hard drive all set up, perhaps I could find someone here to help me switch it out with the one in the E Machine. I can do the mechanical parts since I know how to remove and install a hard drive, but I'm sure there is a lot more to it to get it to function - or maybe not?
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Myrkul

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Re: The Market Loves Linux (That's Why It's Thriving)
« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2008, 11:37:07 am »

ML, You have yourself a deal. :D PM me for details.

And, depending on how you want it set up (dual boot, or just replacing your old hdd), it could be just as easy as pulling the old drive and replacing it with the new.
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MamaLiberty

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Re: The Market Loves Linux (That's Why It's Thriving)
« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2008, 11:41:16 am »

ML, You have yourself a deal. :D PM me for details.

And, depending on how you want it set up (dual boot, or just replacing your old hdd), it could be just as easy as pulling the old drive and replacing it with the new.

KOOL!!! PM on the way!  :sunny: :love4:

 :wav:
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Iconoclast

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Re: The Market Loves Linux (That's Why It's Thriving)
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2008, 05:25:55 pm »

Hello all... Interesting thread... sorry I'm late to the party.

I've got a few thoughts and suggestions... if I'm out of line, just tell me to STFU, I'll skulk away.  ^_^

MamaLiberty... to address your initial premise... and I say this with the utmost respect... Hogwash!

By your own admission, you are unwilling or unable to take the time to learn Linux. That's hardly the Linux community's fault.  If you would take just a fraction of the time that you spent to learn Windows over the years, you could free yourself from an ever more oppressive corporate monopoly.  You are asking your computer to do a little more than toast your bread or cool your quart of milk, and as such, just a little more involvement is required on your part.  The AI of Skynet or the Starship Enterprise doesn't exist yet.

The commercialization of Linux seems to be an issue... to ease your concerns, there are commercial versions of Linux available.... Redhat, SUSE, Xandros, Linspire, just to name a few. There are companies that sell Linux configured systems or laptops... IBM (at least they used to, not sure if Lenovo still does), Dell, maybe even HP.. and there are others, that escape me at the moment, but I'll look them up if requested)  The concept that software is free is pretty radical, but true.  Just because it's free, doesn't mean that it's not commercially viable or that you can't pay for it if you want to.  Every author of Open Source Software (OSS) that I've ever seen will accept contributions for their work... not mandatory, but encouraged.  These are people that volunteer their time to work for the good of the community and the love of their craft... they gladly accept donations to keep the project alive.  If you use Ubuntu, and they don't accept donations, then contribute to Debian.  As far as support is concerned, you can purchase commercial support from Canonical (the K/Ubuntu people)   http://www.ubuntu.com/support/paid   If you go to a large bookstore (Borders, Barnes&Nobel, etc) they usually have a few Linux magazines in the computer magazine section... or go to amazon.com and search for books on ubuntu or red hat or some of the other popular distros, they exist and can help.  My point is, Linux support systems exist.

Microsoft hasn't released an OS that's been ready for prime time in decades... since MS DOS 3.3, IMHO  ^_^   Even though they spend untold $$ and have an army of Beta testers, every modern release of their OS has had problems... they stand ready, of course, and release updates to fix the issues... but the problems still manifest.  No corporate IT department updates their MS desktop users to the new release for AT LEAST six to twelve months... sometimes longer.  They wait for the all the bugs to be worked out before the pain of a corporate upgrade.  Unfortunately, Microsoft has the lion's share of desktop computer OS installations.  But, this isn't by chance.  They've always bullied and used anti-competitive measures to coerce vendors and partners to ensure that new systems go out the door with an MS OS installed.  That is one reason (but not the only one) that you don't find Linux on as many desktops.  And I can't tell you how many times a "fix" from MS has made the problem worse... in fact the rule of thumb is to wait to do any upgrade provided by MS for at least a week, unless it's a high priority security fix (then pray!)  One other thing that may or may not concern you is the M$'s alarming trend to control you, your computer, your data and your use of copy-righted material (Movie DVDs, music CDs) through DRM restrictions.  One reason that you need a new, robust computer system to run Vista is that M$ is using the increased, raw CPU potential to make sure you are not violating any DRM restrictions or violating any Intellectual property standards, as defined by corporate industry and government, not you.  I've read that the system even has the capability to phone home if it's determined that you've gone against the grain, and then the MotherShip can lock you out of your own system. Not to mention the rumors of NSA involvement and back-doors in the system.  This should concern any freedom-minded person.  If past performance predicts future trends, then this is only going to get worse.  If however, you can't find a suitable replacement for Dreamweaver (  http://www.osalt.com/dreamweaver   ), then I would recommend that you keep the old computer with Windows and Dreamweaver on it, do your development work, copy your files to a USB key or hard drive to transfer to your Linux system, and upload them from there.  Don't connect it the Internet... if you're not updating the security on a windows system anymore, it's only a matter of time before the system will be compromised by a virus, trojan or exploit.  Just my $.02.  Oh yeah... have you ever read the EULA (End User License Agreement) that you have to agree to in order to install Windows on your system?  If you haven't, maybe you should... you may be surprised at what you've agreed to with M$.   :ph34r:

Linux has made great progress on the desktop.  The install program allows you to partition the hard drive, and install along-side Windows by dual booting (something a MS install doesn't do.) I find it easier to do a simple install of Linux than XP.  Coming from a Windows environment, I would recommend that you use the KDE desktop, instead of Gnome... It's more "Windows" like and more configurable than Gnome. In the case of Ubuntu, that would mean use Kubuntu instead... same Linux, different windows manager.  I prefer to use a Debian based distribution because Debian is a very solid, stable distribution, it's package management system is arguably second to none and the shear number of packages available to a Debian system is fantastic.  Truly a win-win for the new Linux user.  That being said, I would use either K/Ubuntu, Mint or Mepis. 

ML, I'll extend the same offer as Myrkul (just in case he's hit by a bus (no offense Myrkul... just a odd sense of humor here))... and help support you where needed.

And, depending on how you want it set up (dual boot, or just replacing your old hdd), it could be just as easy as pulling the old drive and replacing it with the new.

Stop the choo-choo for a minute.  This may or may not work depending on ML's hardware and what Myrkul uses to configure the HDD on.  You have to make sure that the E-machine's chipsets (support, integrated sound, video, etc) are supported on Linux and are loaded by the kernel.  Not trying to rain on the parade, just pointing out some potential issues... and ML, before you go A-HA... the same thing has to happen with Windows, it's not endemic to Linux. Linux's modern HAL and dbus systems are pretty good and chances are, you won't have too many problems, but the potential exists.  The only true way to make sure is for Myrkul to configure Linux on the same system you have or to ship him your tower (case only, no need to send the monitor, keyboard, mouse... he probably already has them.)  The other stickler that I can see is possibly the modem ML has installed in the system.  What make and model?  Is it a winmoden?  If you are going to switch to Linux, and use a modem, probably the best thing to so is to purchase a real, external modem that is know to work with Linux.  You can use this type of modem on a Win or Linux system... and if problems arise, they are easier to troubleshoot. In order to cut costs, winmodems don't have all the processing hardware and code built in, the driver uses the host computer to do the processing (in this case, Windows.)  These modems usually don't work with Linux... propriety drivers don't exist for them.

Myrkul, whatever approach you use, I suggest that you configure the SSH server on the system and a generic, unique user account, so that you or I or someone else that ML trusts can remotely access her system after she gets it to provide remote support, if needed.  The SSH server can be turned off and/or firewalled when not in use and the user account can be disabled after the fact... so there shouldn't be any security worries.

In any case, MamaLiberty...sorry for the geek-speak, it couldn't be helped. Let me know what I can do to help.

Mr. Badger... are you reading this also?
« Last Edit: September 17, 2008, 08:21:16 pm by Iconoclast »
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Anduril

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Re: The Market Loves Linux (That's Why It's Thriving)
« Reply #41 on: September 17, 2008, 06:02:45 pm »


     I truly cannot understand this "difficult Linux" stuff.

     I waited until a version of Linux came out that suited my requirements.   I tried Live CDs.

     Meanwhile, I started using Linux-compatible programmes wherever possible.

     I partitioned the 200 Gig Hard Drive into equal-sized partitions, then installed Ubuntu 8.04 in dual-boot mode.  On start-up, I get a menu -- Linux or Windoze, defaulting to Linux. 

     Thereafter, it's plain sailing.  I leave the machine on 24/7, as I always have.  It's seven weeks now since I've had to restart.  No spyware.  No virii.  No crahes.  No Death-by-Blue-Screen.  No nuffink...   Just continuous trouble-free computing.  Regular updates.  Via broadband.   

    And there's the nub:

     Bill St. Clair:  Can you look at   http://www.zyxel.com    to see if there's a spread-spectrum modem there for the lady in Wyoming?  She could dial another Zyxel connected to someone's broadband router, and get a fast connection.  Until ADSL comes to her.

     That's all I'm going to say on this.

     Cordially,

     Anduril

PS: Iconoclast:  MacroHard STOLE "MS-DOS" from Gary Kildall's Digital Research.

   There were disassembled and commented copies of DR's CP/M 2.2 around:  I had one.

    IBM went to Kildall and tried to push him around.  He told them to take a flying f*ck.  So IBM went to Gates and asked him to come up with an operating system for their PC.  Gates paid $80,000 to Seattle Computer Products to cross-translate CP/M's 8080 Intel code into IBM's 8086 Intel code.  SCP added a simple "Copy" command, and reconfigured the prompt from A: to A>

      When Windoze arrived, the horrible thing was no match for DR's GEM windowing system.  So Gates paid Apple to sue DT and get an injunction forbidding DR from selling GEM to anyone except Atari, for the ST.  On the ST the entire O/S loaded out of ROM.

      Gary Kildall, a Lecturer at the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, was later found beaten to death in the street.

     http://cryptome.quintessenz.at/mirror/dirty-spock.htm

      D.I.R.T. -- "Fun with Windoze...   From NSA's V2 Red Team Minutes.     

      Cordially,

      Anduril

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Iconoclast

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Re: The Market Loves Linux (That's Why It's Thriving)
« Reply #42 on: September 17, 2008, 08:08:44 pm »


     PS: Iconoclast:  MacroHard STOLE "MS-DOS" from Gary Kildall's Digital Research.

       IBM went to Kildall and tried to push him around.  He told them to take a flying f*ck.  So IBM went to Gates and asked him to come up with an operating system for their PC.  Gates paid $80,000 to Seattle Computer Products to cross-translate CP/M's 8080 Intel code into IBM's 8086 Intel code.  SCP added a simple "Copy" command, and reconfigured the prompt from A: to A>

      When Windoze arrived, the horrible thing was no match for DR's GEM windowing system.  So Gates paid Apple to sue DT and get an injunction forbidding DR from selling GEM to anyone except Atari, for the ST.  On the ST the entire O/S loaded out of ROM.
     

DR DOS was always superior to MS DOS, in it's day.

...And, if memory serves, Bill also "borrowed" code from IBM's OS/2 to get his fledgling WIndows OS off the ground.  M$'s humble beginnings were built on lies and deceit... which continue to this day.
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MamaLiberty

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Re: The Market Loves Linux (That's Why It's Thriving)
« Reply #43 on: September 18, 2008, 06:46:01 am »

Thanks, gentlemen. We'll see what happens. :)

Back to sorting moccasin patterns... and writing my book.
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Re: The Market Loves Linux (That's Why It's Thriving)
« Reply #44 on: September 18, 2008, 09:40:16 pm »

Dreamweaver is some killer software.  I quit using it when I moved my and my clients websites over to Open Source CMS's like Joomla.  Whatever shakes out, love seeing folks excited about *nix, no matter the distro!  Things are getting very point and click, even for things like difficult drivers.  And soon, people are going to get PO'd when they learn that playing DVDs in the computer they were thinking about building is technically illegal, and then they are going to get a little more "take down the communist waving the capitalist flag," and then they're going to play the DVD anyway on their brand new *nix computer, and then they'll want to play their MP3's, but that's technically illegal, and they'll say "down with the life sucking lawyers suing Grandmaw whom had the audacity to burn a copy of the CD she purchased," and build servers hosting hordes of music and videos on peer to peer networks just to take some money from the thieving RIAA, and then when they get the letter from their ISP saying they violated a user agreement by using too much bandwidth at a slower speed than what was sold to them, they'll hack the whole proprietary code driven Internet, because if it was Open Source, it would have been more secure....or, maybe they just might work on some moccasins.

Grandmother and Grandfather, Mom, wife, and sons on different flavors of *nix now.  Only have had 2 complaints (about the computers), 1.  My 7 yr old son wants me to get more of his Windoze based games working w/ WINE,(only the educational ones seem to be working so far) and 2.  my wife had about of week of "which program does what?" frustration (She's using Linux Mint - very user friendly Ubuntu based).  I'm not going to lie.  She did cuss me for not giving her a choice, but like so very few, and according to my EULA, I was actually paying M$ every year for my licenses in my house (a few servers and 10 or so client machines adds up!).  I supposed I should have given her more notice than "by the way, last night while you were sleeping, I migrated your laptop to *nix."  And, "Oh yeah, there's no more Exchange server, and no more 2003 R2 Server hosting all the pictures,  music, and movies anymore, and there's no more Outlook, no more Visio, no more....."  "And I'm selling off a few of those servers."  I should probably work on my delivery.

My wife missed things like Outlook, but just asked me about a switch from Thunderbird to Evolution.  I didn't tell her about Evolution.  Good sign.

Been working w/ computers for a while, haven't seen one yet that worked exactly how I wanted out of the box yet.  I spend several hours getting servers/ workstation just so, even with some heavy automation.  The real trick to any complex technology based problem is knowing exactly what you want, because there's always a way.  The other half of the problem is choosing 2 of the following 3 attributes:  cheap, fast, and reliable.

And the coolness!! like awesome "network security" tools, and hooking up to your shortwave radio, turning a laptop into multiple wireless AP's with a Pringles can or a piece of pipe turned waveguide moving files 1500 yards away, and making your laptop reboot into on OS hosted on a server to tell the television in the living room to start playing a certain movie for the kids while changing the playlist in the bedroom to something a little more Barry White and dumping all inbound calls from everyone except the State lottery office strait to voicemail....and they just let me have the software and learn it for free!!!!!
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