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[MamaLiberty]

If this is so, I do wonder why several of my friends spend a week or more out of commission and frustrated each time they try to upgrade their Linux OS software - and why (so far) I can't find any compatible programs to even temp me to think about making such a drastic change in OS...

If the Linux folks want to sell (or even GIVE) me their products, they've got to do what I want - and in a way I can manage on my own. I'm not interested in being tied hand and foot to any tech support or Linux discussion forum.

Now, I know this stuff is constantly changing and developing, but I've seen no evidence of it outside an occasional article like this. Just where would I go to see what is currently available? Without advertising, it's often hard to know what they've got or how new stuff might fit into my needs. How are they marketing it?

The Market Loves Linux (That's Why It's Thriving)  http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig9/coleman2.html
by Daniel Coleman

Yes, Linux. When I was in middle school and high school, Linux was a strange, inaccessible beast. The kind of thing only the most dedicated computer nerds knew anything about. Although I had seen it in action once, all I gathered from the experience was that Linux amounted to a lot of garbled text manipulated by dry command lines. Furthermore, it didn't run any useful programs. I simply couldn't see the point in using it.

Many years later, I was clicking around Wikipedia one day and stumbled on a treasure-trove of articles on Linux. To my surprise, I discovered that not only was Linux still around, it was thriving! Next to the articles were beautiful pictures of clean desktops and full-featured applications.

[Lenny]

Speaking as a computer nerd who used happily to install Linux from floppies (count 'em, forty floppies), it's come a long way. There's a mighty good chance you could download Ubuntu Linux today, burn a DVD, install from it and find that life is grand. The experience is remarkably similar to using a Mac (which is what I'm using right now).

On the other hand, if you need to do something unusual, or have strange hardware, or run into other problems that haven't been anticipated yet, you're probably stuck looking online for a solution. And the solution probably involves "opening a terminal," followed by some ghastly hackerish gobbledygook. In Windows the situation is arguably worse: there, if you have some non-standard problem, you're probably just plain out of luck. But Windows still does have more creature comforts than Linux, so an unusual situation is a bit less likely to arise.

If you play games, or use specific software like Quickbooks, etc., then you're kinda stuck with Windows still.

[MamaLiberty]

Speaking as a computer nerd who used happily to install Linux from floppies (count 'em, forty floppies), it's come a long
<snip>
If you play games, or use specific software like Quickbooks, etc., then you're kinda stuck with Windows still.

Well, Len, here's exactly the problem. I have yet to talk to anyone enthusiastic about Linux that was not also some sort of "nerd" or highly competent in all the little games programmers play. I don't want to build cars, just drive them.

I am a writer, researcher and have an old fashioned website which I maintain using Dreamweaver 4. If I didn't have to fix or repair Linux daily I would probably do ok with the word processor and browser, but as far as I know Linux is not compatible with Dreamweaver and has no comparable product to offer. I also have a few gigs of data on this hard drive, and Linux would do me no good at all if I could not access and use it - without converting it to some other form.

I don't have any intention of writing my own code and I don't do "line command." So, if that dooms me to MS, so be it.

The point of the post is that so many people are saying that Linux is a viable market product... and I'm just not seeing that. If it is so, then how in the world do people find out about it? Are they producing products that ordinary people can actually use without a 4 year degree in electronic engineering or whatever?

I've read about all the advantages and they sound wonderful, but so far it's all pretty much a myth for us ordinary folks.

[Lenny]

Yeah, you're right. As we nerds like to say, "It's getting soooooooo close!" But for the average user, a miss is as good as a mile.

[MamaLiberty]

That's about what I figured. sigh...

Now, if I could just find somewhere to sign up to receive the big announcement when Linux or one of it's children actually does enter the market.... with something I want to buy. I don't need it "free." I need it useful.

[Anduril]

   
    There is no problem.

    I run Ubuntu Linux and XP on the same machine with dual boot.

     With Ubuntu 8.04 you get a virtual environment to run Windoze within Linux itself.

      And there are Linux web design tools. All you have to do is look!

      No private nuclear weapons, though.   

      http://tips.webdesign10.com/using-linux-for-web-design-and-development-ubuntu

      Regards,

      Anduril

[MamaLiberty]

I wouldn't know how to do any of that. Unless that comes on a CD I can plug in and play, it's not going to work for me. I don't want to build a car... I just want to drive it.

[Anduril]

    Eek??   You drive cars without knowing how they work??  I knew that at 10!

     Do you know what "understeer" and "oversteer" are?  "Brake fade"?

    Do you fire guns without knowing how they work??    

    [ FX: (Runs and hides) ]

    Regards,

     Anduril

[Ire]

I've tried using Ubuntu.

With WASP or whatever it is that lets you run .exe's, it;s pretty neat.
Not however neat enough... it was too much of a hassle to get my programs to work, having to use that =get command every time I wanted to run something, then having it not work and spending 15 minutes on google finding a how-to of how i needed to reroute this directory to here, and then install this, blah blah blah...

[Myrkul]

WINE is pretty nifty.

As far as downloading programs, most things you need are in the repository (applications|add/remove). That said, Even Ubuntu, which is the most user-friendly Linux distro I've run into, isn't quite ready for prime time, as it were. Like lenny said, it's Sooooo close.

It barely failed the "girlfriend test" - a geek asked his not so geeky girlfriend to sit down and use the computer on a fresh install of Ubuntu. There were only a few problems, mainly the Flash install on FireFox.

The main reason why I still use Windows is that Linux doesn't have all of the same games as windows. most of the new stuff, though is coming out ported to all three OS's... like with Console Games.

[lee n. field]

On the other hand, if you need to do something unusual, or have strange hardware, or run into other problems that haven't been anticipated yet, you're probably stuck looking online for a solution.And the solution probably involves "opening a terminal," followed by some ghastly hackerish gobbledygook.

Every bit of which is also true for Windows.  Every bit.

Linux passed the "Mom test" long ago.

Well, Len, here's exactly the problem. I have yet to talk to anyone enthusiastic about Linux that was not also some sort of "nerd" or highly competent in all the little games programmers play.

My wife is computer incompetent.  Never learned, never had to.  She wants to, and what she's slowly gaining competence with is <ta da> Gnome Desktop on Linux.

Unless that comes on a CD I can plug in and play, it's not going to work for me

Have you tried Ubuntu? 

Unless you're under 13, you didn't grow up with a "modern" version of Windows.  You had to learn new things when it appeared in your world.  And, ya know what?  Windows is changing too. 

I've tried using Ubuntu.

With WASP or whatever it is that lets you run .exe's, it;s pretty neat.

The emulator is called Wine.

Get enough horsepower, and you can run real Windows on a virtual machine.  Or vice-versa, run real Linux on a virtual machine in Windows.

[MamaLiberty]

Have you tried Ubuntu?

Unless you're under 13, you didn't grow up with a "modern" version of Windows.  You had to learn new things when it appeared in your world.  And, ya know what?  Windows is changing too.

Snottiness really doesn't help, you know.

How do you "try" an operating system? I would not know how to do that.

I'm glad your wife is able to make use of it. I'll bet she didn't start from scratch searching the internet for the components and installing them herself. There IS a difference.

My first computer was a 64K Atari in 1986. I've been learning new things for 62 years. That doesn't mean I wish to spend my time reinventing the wheel every week, now does it? Learning a new program isn't the question, it's whether or not Linux and so forth are ready for the market and ready for people to buy. Obviously they are not.

[lee n. field]

Snottiness really doesn't help, you know.

Sorry if you took it that way.  Such was not the intent.

How do you "try" an operating system? I would not know how to do that.

Use a computer running that OS. 

I'll bet she didn't start from scratch searching the internet for the components and installing them herself. There IS a difference.

I haven't had to do that for Linux for quite a piece.

I do wonder why several of my friends spend a week or more out of commission and frustrated each time they try to upgrade their Linux OS software

My point is this.  People are wanting Linux to be Windows, It's not.  It's not what they are used to.   

---oop, posted before I was done---

I get frustrated when people say "Linux isn't ready for prime time", when for most people, Windows presents the very same level of frustration.  It's just familiar.

[MamaLiberty]

Sorry if you took it that way.  Such was not the intent.

Apology accepted

Use a computer running that OS. 

I have no idea how or where to do that. I live in rural Wyoming. I've never seen this OS offered in a store. That's sort of my point!!! It is not commercially available. If it were, I'd have no problems trying it.

I haven't had to do that for Linux for quite a piece.

I'm glad for you. There is no evidence so far that this is the usual case, however. Where did you buy this thing ready to work out of the box? I've seen zero marketing of a user friendly product, generally available.

My point is this.  People are wanting Linux to be Windows, It's not.  It's not what they are used to.

I guess that depends on how you look at it. People like what they are used to. I'm sorry if you don't approve.

This sort of Linux snobbishness is exactly what turns off a lot of potential customers. You sell products best by showing the advantages, not by calling the potential customers idiots and fools for what they bought before.

And I'll only buy Linux if they can convince me that their product is better for my purposes. So far, they've flat failed to do so. If you have viable information to the contrary, I'm all ears.

[lee n. field]

I have no idea how or where to do that. I live in rural Wyoming. I've never seen this OS offered in a store. That's sort of my point!!! It is not commercially available. If it were, I'd have no problems trying it.

I'll send you one if you want.  Note, though, just like Windows, you should have a high speed inet connection to get your updates.  Just like Windows (no way you want to pull XP SP3 down via dialup).

Where did you buy this thing ready to work out of the box?

And I'll only buy Linux if they can convince me that their product is better for my purposes.

Fair enough.  For my purposes, I can do everything I need to do with a default Ubuntu install, plus a few other apps that I get by checking off some boxes in the software package manager.  The only exceptions are Peachtree and access to the exchange server at work., For both I have a Windows box at work.

You do not have to buy it.

Ubuntu will mail you one for the asking.  http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu.  Or, like I said, I can burn you off a copy and mail it.

I guess that depends on how you look at it. People like what they are used to. I'm sorry if you don't approve.

Part of it is personal frustration on my part.  I've been fixing other people's stuff for money since (counts on fingers) since 1991.  That's Windows 3.0 territory.  Most of what I see is people's busted stuff.