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Author Topic: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship  (Read 34113 times)

somedude

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Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2009, 02:02:19 pm »

jamielynn,
I'm not sure of your definition of "escapism," but if it is avoiding reality, I'll point out minarchism is escapist uptopianism. The use of violence, and threats of violence, to finance monopoly services, that could be better provided by private enterprise on a voluntary market, is destructive to the economic progress of society. The State, no matter how limited, is anti-social. The State, no matter how limited, is criminal. (It is also utopian to believe the State can be limited.)

The only just law/principle governing human action is equal liberty. This principle excludes all government that is funded involuntarily through robbery (called "taxation'). Police, courts, and other defense services can only be justly/ethically provided on an open voluntary market. This is also the only practical means to control such services. If one is unsatisfied with the services provided they can go to a competitor, or form their own mutual association, as is the case with all other businesses.

Crime will always be with us. However, there are much better means of dealing with it than granting a monopoly on crime to the biggest band of criminals in any geographic area, in the vain hope that they will protect you from other criminals.
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The revolution in public opinion which this cause requires is not to be expected in a day, or perhaps an age. - Albert Jay Nock

I get around a rock that stands in my, till I have powder enough to blast it; I get around the laws of a people, till I have gathered enough strength to overthrow them. - Max Stirner

Jarel

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Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2009, 05:04:12 pm »

I totally agree, except when it comes down to very specific services like crime control (cops) and a legal system. There I think it breaks down because there is no logistically (or ethically) possible way for honest competition to present itself, at least not that I have yet envisioned or seen. And without some sort of geodefense structure for a given area, tribalistic monopolies and the resultant tragic misappropriation of dignity will ensue. Africa is a great example, as is the history of the German empire. No, I think that the ideal is wonderful, something to work toward, but realistically I think the only model that works is a State whose dynamics most faithfully reproduce the values of equal liberty, those dynamics being the natural result of involved, active, and cognizant members.
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socalserf

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Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2009, 08:10:30 am »

I totally agree, except when it comes down to very specific services like crime control (cops) and a legal system. There I think it breaks down because there is no logistically (or ethically) possible way for honest competition to present itself, at least not that I have yet envisioned or seen. And without some sort of geodefense structure for a given area, tribalistic monopolies and the resultant tragic misappropriation of dignity will ensue. Africa is a great example, as is the history of the German empire. No, I think that the ideal is wonderful, something to work toward, but realistically I think the only model that works is a State whose dynamics most faithfully reproduce the values of equal liberty, those dynamics being the natural result of involved, active, and cognizant members.

Crime control is best handled privately as are courts of law.
And they were very successful in this country for the first 80 years or so.
http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm
http://www.thementalmilitia.com/forums/index.php?topic=100.0

Private courts of law have a long and honored history.
http://www.freenation.org/a/f21l1.html

Jamielynn, Anything that the government does it has usurped from the private sector.
It does these ‘services’ very poorly and at great expense, and usually make a monopoly practice of them.

More over what ever shape society takes after the end of government will be up to the people who form society. If those people want tribalism, like Somalia, or voluntary communes, like Hippy-topia, that will be their private business.

“….realistically I think the only model that works is a State whose dynamics most faithfully reproduce the values of equal liberty, those dynamics being the natural result of involved, active, and cognizant members.”

I think that you must realistically admit that every State ever tried has been an abject, unmitigated failure.
Invariably the first things to be crushed is Liberty, Rights and Dignity of the individual.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2009, 08:12:54 am by socalserf »
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Jarel

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Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2009, 05:16:51 pm »

Perfectly willing to admit that Statism has its flaws, though "abject failure" may be going a bit far, since a few examples to date have been somewhat successful (American Constitutional Republic), despite their admittedly sad flaws until the the informed membership is subverted or invaded, like the bohr system in England. My question is what kind of perpetuity can be expected from a situation where there is no common defense, no enforceable standard of legality, and law enforcement is your neighbor? Just an honest question, friend, since I have no neighbors who I would entrust with those responsibilities, and given that it's their choice to have a Somali-style tribalism, what prevents that tribalism from creating abject unmitigated failure of the human race? The great pain of humanity is and will always be to find a balance, I think, and there will always be a pendulum effect of sorts between independence and tyranny, both personal and societal. From over here, you could be talking about Thunderdome, master-serf style (hippy-topia being good for about ten minutes lifespan), and call me silly but I don't call that evolutionary, I call it a trap, because the only people who will thrive are those ALREADY in power. Again, individual sovereignty is a great ideal, and I'm all for making  progress toward it. I find it especially interesting that some of those who tout anarchism also rub the bellies of Fascist idols. Hmmm... I wonder how easily the fine points of anarchy could fit into the guiding principles of evolving a theocracy. I think for now I'll stick with the old standby of erasing the royalty and pseudo-royalty as the preferred Utopian beginnings of real human evolution. Restack the deck, so to speak, without throwing out the deck itself. Sante!
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"Did you exchange a walk-on part in the war for a lead role in the cage?" Pink Floyd

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"perfectio propter imperfectionem." -- 'perfection requires imperfection.'

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Klapton Isgod

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Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2009, 06:36:49 pm »

Perfectly willing to admit that Statism has its flaws, though "abject failure" may be going a bit far, since a few examples to date have been somewhat successful (American Constitutional Republic), despite their admittedly sad flaws until the the informed membership is subverted or invaded, like the bohr system in England. My question is what kind of perpetuity can be expected from a situation where there is no common defense, no enforceable standard of legality, and law enforcement is your neighbor?

A group of people can have common defense and enforceable standards of legality without those things being monopolized by government.  You are correct that peaceful anarchism would require a radical change of thinking on the part of your neighbors.  Most of us are NOT ready to govern ourselves.  That is the mission of this community - to enlighten people about their true potential to govern themselves without coercion.

Quote
Just an honest question, friend, since I have no neighbors who I would entrust with those responsibilities, and given that it's their choice to have a Somali-style tribalism, what prevents that tribalism from creating abject unmitigated failure of the human race? The great pain of humanity is and will always be to find a balance, I think, and there will always be a pendulum effect of sorts between independence and tyranny, both personal and societal. From over here, you could be talking about Thunderdome, master-serf style (hippy-topia being good for about ten minutes lifespan), and call me silly but I don't call that evolutionary, I call it a trap, because the only people who will thrive are those ALREADY in power. Again, individual sovereignty is a great ideal, and I'm all for making  progress toward it. I find it especially interesting that some of those who tout anarchism also rub the bellies of Fascist idols. Hmmm... I wonder how easily the fine points of anarchy could fit into the guiding principles of evolving a theocracy. I think for now I'll stick with the old standby of erasing the royalty and pseudo-royalty as the preferred Utopian beginnings of real human evolution. Restack the deck, so to speak, without throwing out the deck itself. Sante!

What would be required is for everyone to agree on the definition of aggression, and everyone to be armed and prepared to defend against it.  When bullies come along and try to make themselves a "government," the whole of the people would need to rise up and eliminate them.  Once liberated, it would be the responsibility of every person to ensure that we NEVER go back to tyranny.
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RagnarDanneskjold

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Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2009, 04:20:54 pm »


...
I'll grant that citizenship may be an antiquated notion, but then so it seems is mutuality, and usually the people who talk about voluntarism the most are the people least inclined to mutuality,
...


You've made this claim more than once. I'm not sure what size your sample is, but I think you are off the mark. In my personal experience, which subsumes actually knowing many people who prefer voluntary agreements between and among people rather than coercive relationships the opposite of what you claim holds true. The more the individual person leans toward preferring voluntary associations the more that same person tends toward desiring to work with others.
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Jarel

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Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
« Reply #36 on: July 19, 2009, 06:30:19 pm »


...


 In my personal experience, which subsumes actually knowing many people who prefer voluntary agreements between and among people rather than coercive relationships the opposite of what you claim holds true. The more the individual person leans toward preferring voluntary associations the more that same person tends toward desiring to work with others.
Sort of apples to apples, don't you think? In the first place, of course voluntary mutuality is what binds people together: in friendships, couples and families. Has always been and will always be the case. As well it is an awesome instrument of personal philosophy, one I happen to try to live by in my interpersonal relationships in my life.  But that is not now and never will be what binds a society, except a very very small one. A society is bound by more than that and unfortunately requires a structure in place so that people won't usurp rights and dignities from others. I am NOT authoritarian in any way; just maybe more realistic on the macro scale. Of course, I'm looking at the planet as it exists today; as I said before, mutuality in anarchy is a fine idea in a very small society, i.e. after the great cleansing of 90% of the population. Hope you live through it to implement your ridiculously egocentric plan, 'cause it's fucking coming. Meanwhile on a planet of 6.7 billion, I'd rather look for solutions that don't involve murdering entire continents full of people. But as I said, on a macro scale it breaks down, and individual human survival requires the elements of the ego that make it impossible for the mutuality gene to exist on a macro scale, even in a technologically perfected society where no one lacks for anything, which is of course Utopia. And since the word Utopia is most often contextually associated with a planet almost devoid of people (after the depop) except for A-list eugenicists, my point makes itself in the reality we're living through every day. If you weren't so in love with the elements and the ego of the individual (yourselves) you might actually be able to see that.
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"Did you exchange a walk-on part in the war for a lead role in the cage?" Pink Floyd

"and if you don't like the way I'm livin', ya just leave this long-haired country boy alone"--Charlie Daniels

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somedude

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Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2009, 07:23:40 pm »

jamielynn,
You seem to overlook the fact that we are saying people should make their own choices, while you are saying that people are too stupid to take care of such matters themselves. Which position is more in line with egocentric eugenicists?

The same argument was used by the slave owning liberals that founded this nation ,i.e., blacks were too stupid to take care of themselves and needed kindly white masters to keep them from starving.

The only person you can make reject crime completely is yourself. Once you do, you can try to convince others, from a principled position to reject it. When enough people do so, politico-economic slavery will go the way of  chattel slavery. Bad ideas eventually die when given a public airing. If they didn't the majority of people would still be burning witches on a flat earth, and bowing to the Pope as Rex Mundis.

The point is, if you condone a little bit of violent crime you condone it all. If you think a "limited" amount of robbery is okay, for certain constitutionally specified purposes, then you have no principled claim against the full treatment. IMO, you actually deserve it. In for a penny, in for a pound.

Such a social transformation probably won't happen in our lifetimes, unless economic implosion destroys the State's ability, as well as those seeking State power, to fund soldiers and police. In such a case, most likely, the markets will be regionally limited and we still won't see the true fruits of a fully formed free market in our lifetimes. However, that is not a valid reason to sanction State violence. I certainly can't understand how you think any anarchist can believe he can murder his way to a voluntary society, when by all anarchist definitions such actions would make any group doing so the State.

If you actually bothered studying the corpus of anarchist economic and philosophical works, before condemning it, you would find that any problems you can think of have already been resolved long ago. These links should be a good starting point.

Benjamin Tucker editorial addressing most of the objections to anarchism (from 125 years ago).
http://fair-use.org/benjamin-tucker/instead-of-a-book/tu-whit-tu-whoo
Chapter from Rothbard's primer "For a New Liberty," addressing the role of defense services in a free market.
http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp#p215
Excerpt from Benson's book "The Enterprise of Law: Justice Without The State."
http://mises.org/story/2542

Lastly, if people are too stupid to provide for their own defense, thus necessitating a State, why not food, clothing, shelter, entertainment, etc.?
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When Anarchists are agreed in numbers sufficient to enable them to accomplish whatever special work lies before them, they will probably go about it. - Benjamin R. Tucker

The revolution in public opinion which this cause requires is not to be expected in a day, or perhaps an age. - Albert Jay Nock

I get around a rock that stands in my, till I have powder enough to blast it; I get around the laws of a people, till I have gathered enough strength to overthrow them. - Max Stirner

Jarel

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Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2009, 09:37:15 am »

All due respect SD, look around. As a species we prove every day that we are too stupid to be trusted to do the right thing. White black brown yellow red purple. And as long as that's the case one person will decide to rise up and usurp what is not his, or hers, and yes become the State in role if not in name, because that person will murder his way NOT to a voluntary society, but to one that bends to his greed, just as is happening now, in all the iterations that make the case for the life of mankind so far. And as I've said before I enjoy the ideals of true anarchism; I have studied some of it, and thoroughly believe in the ideals of independent sovereignty. I just don't think the human species is capable. Maybe that's my limitation, but there's SO much evidence. Help me out here.
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"Did you exchange a walk-on part in the war for a lead role in the cage?" Pink Floyd

"and if you don't like the way I'm livin', ya just leave this long-haired country boy alone"--Charlie Daniels

"perfectio propter imperfectionem." -- 'perfection requires imperfection.'

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socalserf

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Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2009, 11:53:01 am »

I don't know how many times I've been through this same conversation.
It alway comes to this, "I believe in liberty and freedom, just not for you and others."

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jamie

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Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2009, 03:17:48 pm »

jamielynn, 

Try  The Probability Broach by L. Neil Smith for a treatment of how a society can be arranged without the state apparatus, police, courts, prison etc.   I always thought it was very workable even after taking into account the base nature of humanity.   And anyway in that kind of society I can't see that there would much of a government created and sponsored underclass like there is now.

There is also a graphic book.
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Jarel

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Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
« Reply #41 on: July 21, 2009, 05:54:24 pm »

 :mellow:Not true, SS; I believe in liberty and freedom for all, so please don't lump me in with the egoists. I just don't have any faith that the human condition will allow for it. We are inherently predatory and greedy, therefore incapable of allowing for the pure kind of benevolent mutuality that is required for such a nonsystem and that's been my point all along. Someone WILL muck up what good people try to create. As I've been saying all along, maybe that's my limitation.
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"Did you exchange a walk-on part in the war for a lead role in the cage?" Pink Floyd

"and if you don't like the way I'm livin', ya just leave this long-haired country boy alone"--Charlie Daniels

"perfectio propter imperfectionem." -- 'perfection requires imperfection.'

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icbkr

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Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
« Reply #42 on: July 21, 2009, 06:09:31 pm »

OK, so vet me on this.  I don't renounce, even though I hate the government, because...

1.) all other places suck by comparison, and I don't want to be on yet another watch list.  I know I don't have to leave, but I like having firearms.

2.) from inside the borders, hidden within the system, i can sneak my subversive dogma into the status quo and thereby cause trouble and create change I would otherwise not be able to do if I was not still part of the system.

I am an anarchist at heart, but only if all the other people on the stage are also as reasonable, intelligent, and compassionate as myself.  Faaaaaaaaaaaaat chance.

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socalserf

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Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
« Reply #43 on: July 21, 2009, 07:47:48 pm »

:mellow:Not true, SS; I believe in liberty and freedom for all, so please don't lump me in with the egoists. I just don't have any faith that the human condition will allow for it. We are inherently predatory and greedy, therefore incapable of allowing for the pure kind of benevolent mutuality that is required for such a nonsystem and that's been my point all along. Someone WILL muck up what good people try to create. As I've been saying all along, maybe that's my limitation.


You keep setting up an Anarchist Utopian strawman to knock down.
Self-government will not change human nature, what will change is the consequences for bad decisions.
Violent criminals will not long survive in a well armed and alert society.
Fraud will be severely punished by compensation for harm.
Lazy people will go hungry.
Human nature will not change, no utopia here folks, move along.
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Jarel

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Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
« Reply #44 on: July 22, 2009, 05:53:24 pm »

OK, so vet me on this.  I don't renounce, even though I hate the government, because...

1.) all other places suck by comparison, and I don't want to be on yet another watch list.  I know I don't have to leave, but I like having firearms.

2.) from inside the borders, hidden within the system, i can sneak my subversive dogma into the status quo and thereby cause trouble and create change I would otherwise not be able to do if I was not still part of the system.

I am an anarchist at heart, but only if all the other people on the stage are also as reasonable, intelligent, and compassionate as myself.  Faaaaaaaaaaaaat chance.


1.) Total subversive. On every watchlist. Don't get it twisted. Don't understand the last part at all. Why are the only choices leaving OR having firearms?
2.)Naively perhaps, but yes. Though I wouldn't call it dogma to simply want a system that doesn't act as predator to the race, nor would it be unrealistic to say that humans are not inherently reasonable and compassionate. HELLOOOO, war as economics?
3.) If anarchy is freedom for all, then yes. Why is it anarchists seem to think they are the only ones who understand freedom? Or is it that all they understand is the reverence of the self?  Just an honest question, as it seems that true anarchy is a pipe dream, with idealistic dronings of free market competition in things like law enforcement, logistically impossible in a society. Again, anarchy is a great ideal, personal philosophy, but as a societal guide, it's just logistically impractical, and will lead to Thunderdome, NOTHING more. Socalserf seems to have found an idol to worship that keeps him safe and self-absorbed; sounds like a resentful little kid from here. Lazy people will always go hungry, in anarchy the consequence for bad decisions sounds like DEATH, exilement, and violent criminals will RULE in an anarchist condition. The references to "great writers" y'all have given actually make my point for me, and States will ALWAYS mow 'em like grass, because of the fragility inherent. The anarchist's lack of capacity for accurately sizing up the human species is astonishingly naive.. Anarchists here SEEM to completely discount the fact that there IS a society, all props to the individual, all worship the self. I will post no more on this subject, as I am not looking to worship totalitarians as idols. Feel free to say whatever you want about me when I'm gone; at least I'm genuinely looking out for US, not just me, me, me. I'm not an anarchist at heart; others also believe that government is thieves, Federal Reserve is criminal, but Constitutional Democracy is not a noose, is in fact the really viable method of self-governance with the smallest downside. Have a nice day.
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"Did you exchange a walk-on part in the war for a lead role in the cage?" Pink Floyd

"and if you don't like the way I'm livin', ya just leave this long-haired country boy alone"--Charlie Daniels

"perfectio propter imperfectionem." -- 'perfection requires imperfection.'

Carpe Libertatem
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