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Author Topic: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship  (Read 34792 times)

jamie

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Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2009, 07:04:12 pm »

Stay tuned for the inevitable Indianbellranch discourse/sales pitch on moving to India. :laugh:

Pass.


looked like a malarial flood plain to me.
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Jarel

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Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2009, 12:37:42 pm »

Take the drag ring out of your nose dumbass; this is our HOME, and without that ,...you have no home. You're going right where they want you to go; right toward "global citizen" status. Why not just get an RFID chip implant, a barcode on your forehead, and a slave collar, and skip the baby steps? The solution is to engage, mitigate, not to drop out, you pussy.
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"Did you exchange a walk-on part in the war for a lead role in the cage?" Pink Floyd

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seditious_nick

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Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2009, 04:20:05 pm »

I don't know about you, jamielynn, but I left home at 18.  I couldn't wait to find my own way in this big, bright world.  To make my own home.

Who the hell are you to criticize somebody else for finding their own way?  Is their only one way, the jamielynn method?

How is that "engaging" and "mitigating" thing working out for you? :wub:
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Jarel

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Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2009, 06:18:10 pm »

Nothing personal Seditious; don't know how it got that way for you. What I was trying to say was that there's a move on to get people to hate their national borders (nation-state), and national sovereignty, and all that old-fashioned crap. No we don't need a manufacturing base; No we don't need to protect our personal economic strength by controlling immigration by people who are used to making 50cents a day, NO we don't need to hope people will be loving and loyal to their friends and neighbors,... that's citizenship to me. Not the flag, but what it means. Not the constitution, but WHO it protects, and that's US. You, Me, All. Renouncement of citizenship is part of that move to UN theocracy, a concerted move on their part. If you bought their line, that's unfortunate. If you think it's a solution that's unfortunate. Mitigation is an answer to incrementalism, one of their tools; slowing them down is a way to help stop their march toward THE REICH. You sound like when you left home at 18, it was because of pain. Don't let that pain decide your politics. Look deeper; no one is an island, my friend. When they came for the Jews, I was not a jew, so I said nothing,...and so I say again the solution is not to drop out,.................
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"Did you exchange a walk-on part in the war for a lead role in the cage?" Pink Floyd

"and if you don't like the way I'm livin', ya just leave this long-haired country boy alone"--Charlie Daniels

"perfectio propter imperfectionem." -- 'perfection requires imperfection.'

Carpe Libertatem

Klapton Isgod

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Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2009, 06:24:17 pm »

JaimieLynn, I think you are misunderstanding the direction from which some folks are coming from with the idea of renouncing citizenship.  The reason someone from this community might consider this is definitely NOT to become a "citizen" of an even BIGGER tyranny.  The purpose would be to assert Individual Sovereignty - NO rulers ("anarchy").
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"I got things under control, that's why people call me an extremist.  I'm autonomous.  I understand that I declare my independence every day."  Ted Nugent

"It is the conservative laissez- fairist, the man who puts all the guns and all the decision-making power into the hands of the central government and then says, 'Limit yourself'; it is he who is truly the impractical utopian."  Murray Rothbard

Jarel

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Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2009, 06:35:38 pm »

Which can only be a symbolic gesture. Not every system is tyranny; we just are inured maybe to the fact that that's all that seems to exist right this minute. Individual sovereignty (anarchy) is a beautiful given in a physically empty world; we as a society CANNOT be that sovereign. One man will spent the entirety of his life trying to bring home the logs to build a house,...Dig your ideals though.
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"Did you exchange a walk-on part in the war for a lead role in the cage?" Pink Floyd

"and if you don't like the way I'm livin', ya just leave this long-haired country boy alone"--Charlie Daniels

"perfectio propter imperfectionem." -- 'perfection requires imperfection.'

Carpe Libertatem

seditious_nick

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Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2009, 12:12:17 pm »

jamielynn,
I've been to the 4 borders of this nation.  When I looked across the Rio Grande it sure looked an awful lot like Texas ground I was standing on.  And there is no floating dotted line that demarcates the Boundary Waters Canoe Area of Minnesota from the Quetico of Canada - I've looked.  These borders are purely political designations.  The moose and deer and javalinas don't seem to care which side of an imaginary line they are on - why should the human animal?

Also I've seen where 234 years of "mitigating" and "engaging" and "patriotism" leaves us.

I'd rather see 6.77 billion* sovereign nations each holding their own freak flag high, but I suspect we as a species have not evolved enough yet for that.  Hell, we are still just savages beating the crap out of other savages because they belong to a different tribe (or because they decide they don't want to be a part of any particular tribe :rolleyes:)

 
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population
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The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh.

Claire

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Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2009, 01:53:44 pm »

One man will spent the entirety of his life trying to bring home the logs to build a house

Do you really believe humans only cooperate or trade with one another when directed to by government? (I doubt you believe that, but it seems implied by the quoted statement.)
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Just as the flattery of friends often leads us astray, so the insults of enemies often do us good. -- St. Augustine, Confessions, Book IX, Chapter 8


When faith ceases to be a challenge to the standards of polite society, it is no longer, or has not yet become, faith. -- Donald Spoto, Reluctant Saint:  The Life of Francis of Assisi


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Jarel

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Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2009, 06:16:12 pm »

Like I said I dig the ideal of individual sovereignty, I really do, in fact I believe that the present iteration of government actually hinders human cooperation because of the power grabbing, propaganda, and social engineering bombarding people's minds. Maybe I think too much in the present, not enough of the ideal itself. Sorry to offend.
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"Did you exchange a walk-on part in the war for a lead role in the cage?" Pink Floyd

"and if you don't like the way I'm livin', ya just leave this long-haired country boy alone"--Charlie Daniels

"perfectio propter imperfectionem." -- 'perfection requires imperfection.'

Carpe Libertatem

Claire

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Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2009, 06:56:05 pm »

Like I said I dig the ideal of individual sovereignty, I really do, in fact I believe that the present iteration of government actually hinders human cooperation because of the power grabbing, propaganda, and social engineering bombarding people's minds. Maybe I think too much in the present, not enough of the ideal itself. Sorry to offend.

Oh you didn't offend -- at least not me, anyway. I'm just curious why you believe that without goverment, "One man will spent the entirety of his life trying to bring home the logs to build a house." I was (and am) hoping you'd explain your reason for that belief.
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Just as the flattery of friends often leads us astray, so the insults of enemies often do us good. -- St. Augustine, Confessions, Book IX, Chapter 8


When faith ceases to be a challenge to the standards of polite society, it is no longer, or has not yet become, faith. -- Donald Spoto, Reluctant Saint:  The Life of Francis of Assisi


My life is my message. -- Gandhi

Jarel

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Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2009, 02:04:21 pm »


The concept has nothing to do with government, only individual sovereignty, an idea populated with alot of people who seem to think that mutual cooperation is bad, that we can exist as islands, which is inherently escapist egocentricism, whereas I believe that there is no me without there also being an us, that mutuality is not so much an unfortunate side effect but one of the perks to being human, not to mention absolutely necessary to ensure the success of the individual and the species, even for a lonewolf like me. And let's face it, since the beginning of time humanity has needed some form of governance, no matter how egalitarian in nature, to smooth out the kinks between our needs our wants and our individual signatures on life. The quote comes from Thomas Paine, writing on mutuality in "Common Sense", and I believe it still holds true; no matter how technologically advanced we become we will always need each other, and there will always be a need for some sort of way to mediate the human animal in its predatory tendencies. True anarchic sovereignty is on its face nothing more than the biggest having the most; hence government. Present version, primarily theocratic in nature, needs to be made to evolve, maybe to die, partly because mutuality is one of the things that theocracy destroys in favor of loyalty to the State, worship to the Body of Law purported by the slavers. Once we evolve the governing body, destroy their unjust influence,  then we can evolve the Nature of Man, and I can't wait. This is one of the things makes me wish we could time-travel.
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"Did you exchange a walk-on part in the war for a lead role in the cage?" Pink Floyd

"and if you don't like the way I'm livin', ya just leave this long-haired country boy alone"--Charlie Daniels

"perfectio propter imperfectionem." -- 'perfection requires imperfection.'

Carpe Libertatem

seditious_nick

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Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2009, 10:18:55 pm »

jamielynn,

The key is voluntaryism.  Your citizenship, without an option for renunciation, is not voluntary.
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The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh.

Jarel

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Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2009, 03:47:49 pm »

jamielynn,

The key is voluntaryism.  Your citizenship, without an option for renunciation, is not voluntary.
Don't really know what you mean by that. We always have a an option to renounce citizenship. Happens all the time with people who don't have any ties to the geographic area where they were born and decide to move on to bigger and better things. I'll grant that citizenship may be an antiquated notion, but then so it seems is mutuality, and usually the people who talk about voluntarism the most are the people least inclined to mutuality, generally as a way of disguising the fact that they have no loyalty to anything or anyone. NOT pointed at you, just a general observation of the human animal. Historically, there's no getting around that real true tribalistic chaos or a Supremely powerful central authority are the only result of a lack of geocentric loyalty, and that will continue to be that case until someone reaches in to our DNA and makes us all perfectly caring and loving people. In the meantime, we have a home on a street in a town, and other people who live around us, and we around them, and we deserve better than to dehumanize ourselves and each other by renouncing those bonds; those bonds are, paradoxically, all that make it possible for us as individuals to thrive, irrespective of the specific form of governance which takes the edge off the chaos.
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"Did you exchange a walk-on part in the war for a lead role in the cage?" Pink Floyd

"and if you don't like the way I'm livin', ya just leave this long-haired country boy alone"--Charlie Daniels

"perfectio propter imperfectionem." -- 'perfection requires imperfection.'

Carpe Libertatem

socalserf

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Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2009, 06:46:45 am »

jamielynn,

The key is voluntaryism.  Your citizenship, without an option for renunciation, is not voluntary.
Don't really know what you mean by that.

Most of your questions about voluntaryism can be found here;
http://www.voluntaryist.com/toc.php

I don't have any issues with people who want to be left alone, or who are solitary, or cussed.
Frankly, I can personally relate.

You are of the opinion that self sovereignty or anarchy is good only in abstract and can't work in the real world.
But, it has worked in the past, and does work here and now.
It works because humans are not perfect and fallible.

The least perfect system involves the most coercion and force, and the best system involves no force and is Voluntary.


Historical Examples of Anarchy without Chaos:
http://libertariannation.org/b/history.htm

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Jarel

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Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2009, 11:13:51 am »

Checked out Voluntaryist; interesting stuff, most of it right up my alley. I don't disagree I just think some people take the concept too far (escapist). We will always have and require SOME system of governance if for no other reason than the logistics of a complex society. No way around it. How much power? That's up to us.
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"Did you exchange a walk-on part in the war for a lead role in the cage?" Pink Floyd

"and if you don't like the way I'm livin', ya just leave this long-haired country boy alone"--Charlie Daniels

"perfectio propter imperfectionem." -- 'perfection requires imperfection.'

Carpe Libertatem
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