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Author Topic: Network Nerds Unite! (WolfNet)  (Read 26912 times)

Junker

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Re: Network Nerds Unite! (WolfNet)
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2007, 08:32:28 pm »

Anyone on anything concrete to do? Can we buy ~$50 Linksys routers, then plug 'em in and go? Or is there just not enough interest?
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Roy J. Tellason

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Re: Network Nerds Unite! (WolfNet)
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2007, 02:23:38 am »

Still interested here,  though not into buying equipment,  and depending on what can be done with a DSL connection...

:-)
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Junker

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Re: Network Nerds Unite! (WolfNet)
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2007, 03:29:20 pm »

Still interested here,  though not into buying equipment,  and...

That's prolly a matter of xfer-nodes v. endpoints, thus a tech Q. As an endpoint you should be able to set up a software VPN which slows your commo down but not others'.


Quote
depending on what can be done with a DSL connection...

Another tech Q and prolly same as above. IIUC, the changing IP addr of a normal DSL connection doesn't preclude endpoints. AFAIK, even an xfer-node could be using session specific addrs. It would just complicate the hook-up software or slow down overall traffic stats. But I'm not a techie.
- - - - - - - - - -

In any case, we've bashed this around for a long time now and I think it's something to be finally realized and regularly used. The standard packages of hardware, software, and procedures need to be defined so that we volunteers can proceed to hook in.

I have a laptop with M$ Win connecting via Wifi to DSL-?box/modem? (handles wifi and ethernet) to the phone jack. Alternatively, I could ethernet cable to the DSL-box rather than wifi and use a Linux live-CD rather than M$.

I'll start a [wiki]Wolfekipedia[/wiki] section at [wiki]Gulchnet[/wiki] for this. Maybe it will help gather the threads and info together.

Edit: updated link
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 05:05:56 pm by Junker »
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Junker

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Re: Network Nerds Unite! (WolfNet)
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2007, 05:06:38 pm »

GulchNet, a part of the history -- Timestamps / IP Logs by ZooT_aLLures on Jan, 2006.

Thus maybe the links need to start as individual or very small group products, rather than looking for the easy-for-anyone-to-install-and-use version.

In that line, I guess I should look at getting a VPN-router first, then advertise for someone to link with for testing.

Then as well, investigate using a generic site for a 24x7 node...something like SMF but for VPNs instead of forums.
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Plinker-MS

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Re: Network Nerds Unite! (WolfNet)
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2007, 06:34:43 pm »

Anyone on anything concrete to do? Can we buy ~$50 Linksys routers, then plug 'em in and go? Or is there just not enough interest?

Whatever you do, don't run out and buy a version 5 or above Linksys WRT54G.  (the WRT54GL is OK, but more expensive).

If the serial number on the router or on the box is CDFB or higher, it a version 5+ and is not worth buying.


LinkSys went from using an embedded Linux to using the non-free VxWorks software in the newer routers.  I really don't care what kind of software the routers come with, but when they made the change, they also reduced the amount of flash and RAM on the box to the point where it just isn't worth trying to customize.

LinkSys introduced the WRT54GL when people who were used to customizing WRT's raised hell about the change.

The good news is that many of LinkSys's competitors (Buffalo, NetGear, etc) make similar routers, and OpenWRT (and other distros) have been ported to them.  (make sure you check the "supported hardware" page of your favorite distro for the correct model and/or version before buying.)
 
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Plinker-MS

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Re: Network Nerds Unite! (WolfNet)
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2007, 06:39:07 pm »

One other point.

It is not necessary to buy any kind of VPN-capable router to participate in a VPN.  Most of them are embedded Linux machines, and regular Linux machines will work just fine for that purpose.

VPN software also runs quite well on Windows -- with varying degrees of difficulty depending on the technology chosen and what you are trying to do.
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Junker

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Re: Network Nerds Unite! (WolfNet)
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2007, 07:37:13 pm »

Thank you, Plink.
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oldzoot

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What (exactly) are we trying to do?
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2007, 11:22:23 pm »

Subject says it all.

What is the purpose of WolfNet ?

My assumption is that it is to be a completely secure private network for enabling secure communication amongst a very limited group of people.  No access from the Internet (although it will use the Internet for transport).  If you want to use WolfNet, you have to have a dedicated node, maintained to a high level of security.   

Please (to use Donnie's phrase) calibrate me if this is wrong.

So.  Who decides who is trusty enough to be a member of the net?   If one person in the "trusted" pool is a fink, the security of the whole thing is corrupted.

OZ
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Junker

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Re: Network Nerds Unite! (WolfNet)
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2007, 12:37:08 pm »

What is the purpose of WolfNet?

1. Once I have a working set-up, I can more easily handle other VPNs.
2. I can go in one end and out another for service like a proxy.
3. It develops community interest among users.
4. It Darwin-selects certain types from among the TMM community.
5. It produces a blind spot (or troublesome spot) for surveillence in the Internet.
6. It provides a platform or interest group for other efforts.
7. It promotes others' being capable of #1 above.
8. It promotes others to be encryption aware and capable.

Quote
My assumption is that it is to be a completely secure private network for enabling secure communication amongst a very limited group of people.  No access from the Internet (although it will use the Internet for transport).  If you want to use WolfNet, you have to have a dedicated node, maintained to a high level of security.

It is known that "completely secure" is a myth. But, relatively secure is sufficient. This would/should not be a channel for planning or coordinating essentially illegal acts, because its relative security is not sufficient. However, it would allow certain innocuous-sounding communication to pass as one of many within the relative security. Or, it is a healthy social in relation to govt, particularly current govt.


Quote
So.  Who decides who is trusty enough to be a member of the net?   If one person in the "trusted" pool is a fink, the security of the whole thing is corrupted.

That is not really a concern as it goes outside the purpose. So, any TMMer is welcome. If an individual needs to communicate without the possibility of there being a "fink" other methods are advisable and more easily available.
- - - - -

That's a lot a verbiage. So:

1. It's good/healthy social practice.
2. I would like the capability.
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da gooch

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Re: Network Nerds Unite! (WolfNet)
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2007, 05:24:30 pm »


I would like to be "connected" but I am completely illiterate on this subject.

Do I need to learn a whole new language ? Just to be in touch ? 

What is the purpose of WolfNet?

1. Once I have a working set-up, I can more easily handle other VPNs.
2. I can go in one end and out another for service like a proxy.
3. It develops community interest among users.
4. It Darwin-selects certain types from among the TMM community.
5. It produces a blind spot (or troublesome spot) for surveillence in the Internet.
6. It provides a platform or interest group for other efforts.
7. It promotes others' being capable of #1 above.
8. It promotes others to be encryption aware and capable.

Quote
My assumption is that it is to be a completely secure private network for enabling secure communication amongst a very limited group of people.  No access from the Internet (although it will use the Internet for transport).  If you want to use WolfNet, you have to have a dedicated node, maintained to a high level of security.

It is known that "completely secure" is a myth. But, relatively secure is sufficient. This would/should not be a channel for planning or coordinating essentially illegal acts, because its relative security is not sufficient. However, it would allow certain innocuous-sounding communication to pass as one of many within the relative security. Or, it is a healthy social in relation to govt, particularly current govt.


Quote
So.  Who decides who is trusty enough to be a member of the net?   If one person in the "trusted" pool is a fink, the security of the whole thing is corrupted.

That is not really a concern as it goes outside the purpose. So, any TMMer is welcome. If an individual needs to communicate without the possibility of there being a "fink" other methods are advisable and more easily available.
- - - - -

That's a lot a verbiage. So:

1. It's good/healthy social practice.
2. I would like the capability.

If ......

"This would/should not be a channel for planning or coordinating essentially illegal acts, because its relative security is not sufficient. However, it would allow certain innocuous-sounding communication to pass as one of many within the relative security."

 .......  then why not just start and stay with a completely separate and much more nearly secure alternate option ?  :huh:

Ham comes to mind ......
If it comes to TSHTF not having a license wouldn't be a problem.

Is my non-nerd-ness gonna be a huge stumbling block here ?

Is there a place where non-nerds can get assistance with all of these technologies ?

What sort of financial outlay are we talking about here ?  :ph34r:

Can you tell I'm really "UP" on this sort of thing ?  :rolleyes:


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Junker

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Re: Network Nerds Unite! (WolfNet)
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2007, 07:29:18 pm »

I would like to be "connected" but I am completely illiterate on this subject.

Do I need to learn a whole new language? Just to be in touch?

No. Don't worry. A "click and play" version is part of the process.

Even now, since I'm limited, an easy version has been being discussed:
    a. get the X router.
    b. get a password.
    c. d/l the software.
    d. install the software.
    e. plug it all in.
    f. use it.

"d" is the most problematic. M$ or Linux? Installation procedure- easy wanted. Etc.

We're still on "a". Also see history on Zoot and Gulchnet. He got to "f" with Claire.


Quote
If ......

"This would/should not be a channel for planning or coordinating essentially illegal acts, because its relative security is not sufficient. However, it would allow certain innocuous-sounding communication to pass as one of many within the relative security."

 .......  then why not just start and stay with a completely separate and much more nearly secure alternate option ?  :huh:

They are there already. They are in use by those who need them. And require more effort than "click and play". See history.

Quote
Ham comes to mind ......
If it comes to TSHTF not having a license wouldn't be a problem.

Ham has pluses+minuses, depending on use. And there are threads, current and historical on ham radio, its use, and its use for networking. Its discussion/use is going very slowly, as this has and still is. (Gulchnet discussion started ~3 years ago.)


Quote
Is my non-nerd-ness gonna be a huge stumbling block here ?

First, no reason it should be. At this point, the general TMM user is the target.
Then, there is already an array of actions available with each requiring its own level of effort (money, time, hassle, knowledge). Or platitudinally, we are all more or less stymied in some areas at some levels.

Quote
Is there a place where non-nerds can get assistance with all of these technologies ?

What we're talking about now? See history and google the equipment or the concepts.
Then as this develops to a TTM user advertizing stage, the docs/procedures will be available, posted or whatever.


Quote
What sort of financial outlay are we talking about here ?  :ph34r:

If you're going with the router version, $50-100. Software-only version, Zero.


Quote
Can you tell I'm really "UP" on this sort of thing ?  :rolleyes:

Not a problem. I'm not one of the more "UP". So because of that, I'm more on the simple side of the development process.
I want/need a easy installation process.

Frinstance... I'm on a Windoze system. I don't trust (or like) it. That's a slowdown. A new box is on the way. I'll install Linux on it. Which? Don't know. I'll experiment. Another slowdown. That done...VPN time. Router or software? Research current routers...experiment with Linux VPN software. Another slowdown. That completed...advertise here for a mutual experimenter... et cetera.

So for me this is a longish process. As I go along, I'll talk it over here...helping others along the way by example. If it allows "Gulchnet", we'll all see it.

OK?
- - - - - -

Side issue. I'm watching the ham effort too. At my gulch (there, but dead for now), I wanted to install HF & satellite packet equipment. But that discussion/effort here goes slowly too, no matter my gulch's status.
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da gooch

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Re: Network Nerds Unite! (WolfNet)
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2007, 08:32:13 pm »


Thanks Junker

I'll be keeping an eye on the progress.

It sounds like my next tool is one of those cheapo Linux doozies from Wally World.
If it will run the VPN software I might be able to go that route.
I have an older Dell Latitude that might work as a linux machine If I wanted to go the wipe and fresh install route.
It might also work as a dual boot machine ?  Hmmm
It seems I have more options than I first thought.


I just got a new boat job and with luck I'll be able to make enough to get the router as well as the new Linux doozie.

Is the router system any more secure than the software only version ?

Sorry for all of these questions .......

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Junker

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Re: Network Nerds Unite! (WolfNet)
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2007, 09:07:40 pm »

Thanks Junker
Sorry for all of these questions .......

Denada, Gooch.


Quote
I'll be keeping an eye on the progress.

It sounds like my next tool is one of those cheapo Linux doozies from Wally World.
If it will run the VPN software I might be able to go that route.
I have an older Dell Latitude that might work as a linux machine If I wanted to go the wipe and fresh install route.
It might also work as a dual boot machine ?  Hmmm
It seems I have more options than I first thought.

I suggest just watching. Save the money for later... after we get something going.

Quote
I just got a new boat job ...

Very keen!

Quote
Is the router system any more secure than the software only version ?

Generally the router is a computer running the same Linux software, i.e., a "plug and play" alternative. Easier for many than get a Linux box/dual boot, install & tune software, etc.
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oldzoot

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Linux hardware requirements
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2007, 10:04:44 pm »

One of the great things about linux is that it has relatively minimal hardware requirements.   It will run on an old 386 computer in fact, and a 386 may be about the same power as a dedicated router.    If you can get an old pentium - even just 400 Mhz  you can have a reasonable linux system.

OZ
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oldzoot

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Thanks for the clarification
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2007, 10:14:14 pm »

Thanks for the clarification, I got myself tracked off into the hinterlands.
 

OZ
« Last Edit: November 17, 2007, 10:58:32 pm by oldzoot »
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