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Author Topic: Got gold?  (Read 177958 times)

Silver

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Got gold?
« on: April 27, 2004, 05:33:54 pm »

Edited December 2014: there have been some changes in reputable gold dealers; I've put strikeouts on old info and [ these brackets ]  around updated info in the text below.
-Silver


I'm deliberately not going to try and convince anyone to buy gold.  There's plenty of information on that topic, excellent web sites include 321Gold, Kitco, The Daily Reckoning especially the rantings of the Mogambo Guru (despite the name and the attitude, this guy speaks a lot of truth) and the book Financial Reckoning Day.  Just don't read the book at night, you'll have nightmares.

My premise, based on conversations and correspondence, is that there are many people who want to buy gold, but don't know how, and are afraid to make mistakes.  Gold is expensive, and no one wants to lose their money.  So here's a very short take on how to buy gold.  I'll be glad to answer questions.

1) Buy American Eagle gold coins.  Why?  Well, there are the patriotic reasons, and all proceeds go to pay the national debt rather than funding new madness, and they are made from gold mined in America, and they are darn pretty.  The primary reason to buy Eagles: the IRS. 

Gold coin sales (TO you) are not reported to the IRS.  If you redeem (sell to a dealer) more than 20 coins (the law seems to state 20 coins,  not 20 troy ounces) in a year, dealers must report the transaction to the IRS, UNLESS the coins in question are Eagles.  Then there is no reporting.  You are still responsible for reporting the capital gains on your self-incrimination form, but the dealer won't automatically rat on you.

My second favorite, for diversity and if you have objections to Eagles, are Canadian Maple Leafs.  Unlike Eagles, which are alloyed with silver and copper to make the metal harder and the coins more durable, Maple Leafs are .999 fine gold, the pure product.  They are soft and easily scratched or blemished.  The Eagles actually weigh more than face value; a 1 oz Eagle weighs more than 1 oz. but has exactly 1 oz of gold in it.

Krugerands are alloyed and demand less of a premium than Eagles.  Gold is gold, the only difference is the tax treatment.  Congress passed these laws and Congress can change them, but those are the rules today.

2) Buy from a reputable dealer.  My favorite is Burt Blumert and his Camino Company.  You can find his telephone numbers via LewRockwell.com, click on "Gold Price" in the upper left corner of the page. [Burt died in 2009.  Contact Camino at www.caminocompany.com]

Why Burt?  Because he is an honorable man with decades of experience in the coin business.  When you send a bank check for hundreds or thousands of dollars to some stranger, you need to know that they will give you the gold, no matter what.  Burt has been put to the ultimate test while shipping gold to me: the entire shipment was stolen.  Camino Coin sent a replacement almost before I noticed the delay and found out what had happened.  He was able to cover a $100k loss from his own pocket while the insurance claim was processed. 

Most gold coin dealers play the gold market, buying futures and such.  It's weird, but more of them go out of business when gold is going up (as it is today) than going down.  When a small, new dealer goes belly-up, people who haven't gotten their coins are out of luck, and out of their money.  Camino has been in business for years and will take care of you.  You need that kind of confidence in your gold dealer.

I've bought from Cheapergold.com, Tulving, GoldMasters.net, and others.  I don't recommend them.  CheaperGold played games with my bank checks, cashing them but waiting up to a month, in one case, to deliver the goods.  Not acceptable.  Tulving sent $8,000 worth of gold coins uninsured via UPS, who left the package laying on my front porch where anyone on the busy street could have scooped it up. (edited to add: I've since learned that Tulving carries private insurance on all shipments.  I'm still chapped at UPS for leaving a lot of gold laying on my front porch, but that's not Tulving's fault.  If you can swing a purchase of 20 oz of gold or 500 oz of silver, Tulving has by far the best prices.) [Tulving went bankrupt in 2014]  Goldmasters has been the second best after Camino, but why compromise when there is such a great resource?  The main advantage of Goldmasters is that they have a great web interface.  The main drawback is that they don't mess around; you send payment in 24 hours or else.

3) Buy regularly.  While I've converted a significant chunk of my liquid financial assets to gold and silver, I don't recommend that for everyone.  Believe it or not, the point of owning gold is to sleep better at night. It has value that won't vanish when the American Empire collapses.  A silver quarter will ALWAYS buy a loaf of bread.  That's peace of mind.  If you move everything into gold, you'll start watching the price like a hawk, and losing sleep.  It's not worth it.  Just buy a bit every month, and watch your hoard grow, and when the poop hits the propeller, you'll truly understand why owning gold is essential.

So make it a savings plan.  Figure out how much you can save in gold each month.  No matter how big or small that number, you can work with it.  Place an order every month or three.  Build your hoard. 

Everyone can afford gold, its only a question of how much.  Here are some current prices, approximate only:
April 27, 2004                                                                             UPDATE on April 28, after gold was hammered today
1 oz Eagle: $421  tube of 20 x 1 oz: $8,420                         1 oz Eagle $404 tube of 20 x 1 oz $8,080 
1 oz. Maple Leaf: $413.50                                                  1 oz. Maple Leaf: $404
1 oz. Krugerand: $407.49                                                   1 oz. Krugerand: $392

0.5 oz Eagle: $217
0.25 oz Eagle: $109
0.10 oz Eagle: $45

4000 pre-1964 US quarters, 90% silver, about 715 troy oz: about $5,000 delivered.  Heavy!

It's easy.  Camino coin doesn't even ask for bank checks, although they ship faster if you send one.
Just pick up the phone, talk to the nice folks, order your gold, send them a check redeemable for
worthless bits of green paper.  In a few days, the US post office will hand deliver a lovely, heavy,
insured and registered package to your doorstep, and ask you to sign for it.  You will have traded
paper for gold.  There's nothing quite like it.

Peace,

Silver
 
[edited May 13, 2008 to correct information on Tulving, update gold prices]

Gold coin price update on May 13, 2008
                                                                       
1 oz Eagle: $995.45  tube of 20 x 1 oz: $19,356 
1 oz. Maple Leaf: $986.19
1 oz. Krugerand: $986.19                                                   

0.5 oz Eagle: $565
0.25 oz Eagle: not available
0.10 oz Eagle: $133.60

Don't you wish you had bought some gold 5 years ago, when this post was written?

Just think how you will feel in 2014, after the coming hyperinflation has done its work!

Peace,

Silver

[edited December 8, 2014 to update information on Camino and Tulving]
« Last Edit: December 08, 2014, 12:03:27 pm by Silver »
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Bear

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Got gold?
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2004, 06:22:29 pm »

Obligatory DittoHead: "Yeah, what he said."

Call me unpatriotic, but I think the Canadian Maple Leafs* are prettier. :o

For the curious:

The US, Mexico, Britain and South Africa produce 22 kt coins.
Canada, Australia and China produce 24 kt coins.

The less-than-pure coins that claim to be 1 troy ounce contain one net troy
ounce of gold. While they all are 22 kt, they may look different due the different
blend of metals used to make the 22 kt alloy. For example, the US Eagle is a pale
gold color and the Krugerand is coppery. I think this is due to greater or lesser
amounts of silver or copper.

Bear

*<PEDANTIC=ON> I know the plural of leaf is leaves, but leaf is part of the proper
name.</PEDANTIC>


 
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mantispid

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Got gold?
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2004, 06:46:57 pm »

I think the Australian and Chinese coins are prettiest. ;)


Now, the next thing to touch on.. how the heck should you store your gold?
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enemyofthestate

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Got gold?
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2004, 08:01:12 pm »

Quote
Tulving sent $8,000 worth of gold coins uninsured via UPS, who left the package laying on my front porch where anyone on the busy street could have scooped it up.
I've dealt with Tulving and never had problem.

Quote
  Now, the next thing to touch on.. how the heck should you store your gold?
A safe?  A pretty good safe can be bought for a couple hundred dollars.  I suggst bolting it to the floor unless it weighs about a zillion pounds or get one of those floor safes.  I know one fellow who keeps his gold in his gun safe.
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Galahad

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Got gold?
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2004, 08:12:36 pm »

I have also had a good experience with Tulving.
http://www.tulving.com/goldbull.html#silver

Another good dealer is:
http://www.golddealer.com/bullionpage.html

 
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mantispid

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Got gold?
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2004, 08:13:40 pm »

Quote
A safe?  A pretty good safe can be bought for a couple hundred dollars.  I suggst bolting it to the floor unless it weighs about a zillion pounds or get one of those floor safes.  I know one fellow who keeps his gold in his gun safe.
Hmm.. what about a bank or credit union's safe deposit boxes?
 
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enemyofthestate

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Got gold?
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2004, 11:22:35 pm »

Quote
Hmm.. what about a bank or credit union's safe deposit boxes?
My personal preference is not to use a safe deposit box.  A safe deposit box is a safe place but it is also under the control of the institution that owns it.  That means it is only accessible during regular hours and, while that may not be a paticular burden, it also means that law enforcement and the tax man has access it it.   Most banks are very good at respecting your everyday privacy but they will not fight the federals over it.  If the IRS shows up with seizure papers your safe deposit box is toast.  If you think there is any danger of becoming a 'person of interest', a safe deposit box may not be a good place to keep your gold and silver.  Especially if you think you may need to vacate in a hurry.

OTOH, a safe deposit box may be a good idea if you live in an area with a high rate of burglarlies or home invasions and the local laws mandate victim disarmament.  I don't live it such an area (yet)  so I prefer to keep my few gold coins close to hand.

If you die, your widow cannot get into the box without someone there to inventory the contents.  That was a show stopper for me.  I've left instructions with my wife that, in the event of my death or disappearance, she is to empty anything valuables from the safe, throw in a couple of old guns, and claim I was using it as gun safe.  I've already paid all the taxes on the money and valuables in there and I'll be damned if I'll make it easier for the feddies to f**k over my heirs.

As usual YMMV.
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rockchucker

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Got gold?
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2004, 11:44:36 pm »

Quote
A safe?  A pretty good safe can be bought for a couple hundred dollars.  I suggst bolting it to the floor unless it weighs about a zillion pounds or get one of those floor safes.  I know one fellow who keeps his gold in his gun safe.
Brown Safe Mfg. has info on what the various safe ratings actually mean, and other tips.

Also consider a cheaper safe as a decoy.

There's also Ragnar Benson's burial approach.

I'd have my stash split among several locations (if I had a stash, that is :( ). I heard about one guy who built a stash of Kruggerands into his jeep. Remember the movie Day of the Jackal, where the Jackal mods his car to hold his rifle kit under the chassis? I wouldn't use something like a car, which after all, is a target for theft all by itself.
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rick

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Got gold?
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2004, 04:59:42 am »

In the funny country where I am living I have to store gunpowder in a safe, so I bought a good-looking one with a complicated lock and which looks really worth stealing. It is filled with six pounds of gunpwder though. THe more precious things as silver and gold coins are stored in a simple cardboard box, displayed in the open. Don't think a burglar will strech for a cardboard box almost at the ceiling when he can have a safe (75 lbs, not more) which really yells "steal me, steal me now". Hope the burglar uses a torch..
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Silver

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Got gold?
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2004, 06:02:22 am »

I think they are all pretty coins, and I have some of each.  Most of my stash is Eagles and Maple Leafs, but I have Krugerands, Pandas, and a few others.  For someone starting out, I think Eagles are safe, easy, and the tax treatment justifies the small premium.

A safe buys time, nothing more.  A high-quality safe is rated to withstand professional attack for 15 minutes.  A really great safe is rated to withstand attack for 30 minutes.  I don't know about you, but that's just not enough time for me.

A good safe costs thousands of dollars.  Nothing wrong with that, it's just how much they cost.

A cheap safe is worse than nothing for storing truly valuable items.  It will attract attention while not protecting your goods.  Using one as a decoy is a fine idea.  Cheap safes are really nothing more than fireboxes, they do a good job of protecting the contents against fire. There have been court cases where foolish people sued a firebox company after a thief opened the safe with a crowbar and stole his coin collection.  He lost the lawsuit.  

Law requires storing gunpowder in a safe?  Yikes!  Gunpowder is only dangerous when it is in a sealed container.  I was taught to store gunpowder in a flimsy container so that, in a fire, it just fizzles and sparks.  The depths of government stupidity will never cease to amaze me.  

I have a firebox.  I got it free because the owner had forgotten the combination.  I picked the lock.  That should scare you, as I am no one's idea of a safecracker.   Now I keep negatives, diplomas, and other personally valuable papers in it.

My gold is hidden elsewhere, not all in one place.  I keep some where I can look at the pretty coins and show them to friends.  Some is hidden in plain sight, some is in safe deposit box, some where it will never be found. Its really not that hard to hide something where you can find it but even a determined attacker would have a terrible time locating it.  Just avoid the common pitfall of storing something valuable inside something that might get thrown out.  Another hint: a search by the authorities will destroy your home.  They use metal detectors and rip open walls and floors.  Think about it.

As for Tulving, I had several shipments that were fine, then I had the one where uninsured coins were left on a public way.  Once is enough.  Post Office insured delivery really is best for this kind of thing unless a long-established dealer can show you proof of private insurance.  Tulving shipped UPS, uninsured, without telling me, and it was only dumb luck that I got the coins before someone passing by did.   I also have some unpleasant experiences with Tulving's display and honor of prices, but 'nuff said.  How many shipments are you willing to lose?

I recommend Camino because they've been in buisiness for almost 40 years, they are honest, and they made good, immediately, on a stolen shipment that would have put lesser firms out of business.  They also happen to be very nice and will be happy to explain things to you.  They also sell collectible gold coins; I don't do those but some folks like them.  All around, Camino is the best I've found, and I've tried a dozen or more.

Peace,

Silver
 
« Last Edit: July 16, 2005, 06:56:03 am by Silver »
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NortonRyder

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« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2004, 07:52:08 am »

Don't forget the 'Poor Man's Gold' - Silver. For those of us without the huge resources to acquire thousands of dollars of gold, silver is, to my thinking, a reasonable substitute. WIth a conversion value of about 50 Oz of Silver, to 1 Oz of gold, you've got a bit more to carry. OTOH, in a survival situation, buying a tank of gas using a Gold Eagle would not be desirable. It all depends on your view of what is coming, after the collapse.
I've used Kitco for both their Silver Pool, and actual delivered metal. The Silver Pool is a way of acquiring a silver holding a little bit at a time. Then, when you are ready, you can convert the Pool contents into actual metal, by paying the minting premium. I have a group of Canadian Maples. They are rated .9999, which is about as close to absolutely pure as it is possible to get. Another option is the Silver Liberties, offered by Norfed. There is a bit higher premium, though.
All in all, Metal in the hand is worth much more than FRNs in the bank. Even Copper has intrinsic value. Notice when the FedGov stopped making pennies out of pure copper? About the time people started hoarding pennies, because one penny contained more than one cent's worth of copper.  
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Silver

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Got gold?
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2004, 12:09:32 pm »

Forget it?  It's my screen name! :D

Seriously, I didn't forget it, and I own almost my weight in silver.  But it's different than gold.
Valuable, yes.  But it gets used, really used and not recovered, whereas we can account for
about 98% of gold mined since the dawn of man.  The industrial uses and the fact that keeping
the price of silver low suits the interests of many powerful people distorts its price and its market
in ways that are both interesting and dangerous to the small investor.

Look at the price of silver today (April 28), it's below $6.  Earlier this month, it was above $8.  That
kind of thing gives people heartburn and insomnia.  There's almost certainly manipulation going on,
and those of us who think we understand the long-term fundamental forces take these dips as buying opportunities.  But if you've just laid down $1000 for silver that is now worth $750, it hurts.

Gold is variable and subject to manipulation as well, but the swings aren't so wild.  Gold's price
has dropped about 7 or 8% this month versus 25-30% for silver.  If you've got the guts, by all
means load up on cheap silver and ride the price to the moon.  But I think most folks, on this
forum particularly, are buy-and-hold types, who want the metal as much for insurance and
get-away and gulching purposes more than as an speculative investment.  

Gold, IMHO, is a better match to those needs.  Portable, valuable, stable.  You can hold $100,000 worth in the palm of your hand, if you can hold 17 lbs or so.  The same value of $6/oz silver would weigh over half a ton.

Rich or poor, if you've got $50, you can own gold, or silver.  Owning both is great if you can afford it. I hold both silver dollars and pre-1964 silver quarters in addition to my gold bullion coins.
A silver quarter will always buy a loaf of bread.  When times get tough, and they will, that can become very important.  Even if the person in line behind you has a fistful of FRNs, you'll get the bread.

Peace,

Silver
 
« Last Edit: July 16, 2005, 06:53:26 am by Silver »
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ZooT_aLLures

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Got gold?
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2004, 12:09:59 pm »

You know.......I have a stash of silver coins, and I do believe in holding some "hard money" and all that good stuff, yet I've got a question.

Quote
A silver quarter will ALWAYS buy a loaf of bread.
How do you know without any shadow of a doubt that gold or silver will "always" be accepted as money other than by pointing to tradition in a semi stabilized society?
During hard times that which is considered as currency is that which is most needed at that time, and this very well could not be either gold or silver.

As I've said before, I have a few coffee cans full of "junk silver" and I feel they have "a" value but I'll not bet my future on that value by placing all my eggs into a silver basket anymore than I'll believe that there is any silver bullet available with which to procure freedom........
Good common sense would dictate that a person preparing for an uncertain future would accumulate a little of this and a little of that and perpare for all crises, and not trust their future to the price of chicken feathers...... or of gold and silver
 
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Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed.

We all have some scar tissue that never lets us completely forget the intent of the adventure.

Silver

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Got gold?
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2004, 12:24:28 pm »

Quote
How do you know without any shadow of a doubt that gold or silver will "always" be accepted as money other than by pointing to tradition in a semi stabilized society?
During hard times that which is considered as currency is that which is most needed at that time, and this very well could not be either gold or silver.
I don't know beyond a shadow of a doubt.  I only have 12,000 years of human history to guide me.  During that time, people always have wanted gold, have traded gold, and hoarded gold.  Silver too, but not so much as gold.

In hard times, the value and demand for gold tends to go up, way way up, even as civil society disintegrates.  Gold's value goes so high in such times that it all disappears, goes underground, as Gresham's Law works its cruel logic.  Bad money drives out good money, and when the poop has really hit the fan, gold is the best money there is, so it vanishes.  That doesn't mean you can't trade it, just that there won't be a lot circulating.  If you give someone a gold coin, they will hoard it, not spend it, in truly hard times.

I would never suggest putting all your money into gold or silver.  I certainly didn't.  First it was food and a secure water supply, then ammo, then medical supplies.  I've only turned to serious gold purchases in the past year or so.  First things first; you can't eat gold.

I can't see the future.  But I can read history, and everything I learn from that tells me we are heading for a big, big fall.  Probably sooner rather than later, but who knows?  I'll be very, very happy if nothing bad happens and my bullion sits quietly in its hiding place until I die or decide to spend it.  But I'll have a better chance of living if things get bad and I've stocked up.
It's a no-lose proposition; the downside of gold is much, much less than the downside of any stock purchase or fiat currency stash.

Is gold the only thing to hold?  Of course not.  Is it very, very important to have some?  I think so.

Peace,

Silver
 
« Last Edit: July 16, 2005, 06:32:31 am by Silver »
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ZooT_aLLures

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Got gold?
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2004, 12:40:26 pm »

Silver,

May I ask what determines the price of gold and silver "today" and what if anything would you or could you do to affect the price of that gold and silver?
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Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed.

We all have some scar tissue that never lets us completely forget the intent of the adventure.
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