The Mental Militia Forums

9/11 Discussion => 9/11 => Topic started by: Elias Alias on April 01, 2006, 03:49:12 pm

Title: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 01, 2006, 03:49:12 pm
Instead of returning to our original "conspiracy theory" thread, which stands now at about twenty-five pages, it seems perhaps better to start a second thread in which we may continue the massive body of work we were building originally. For readers who have way too much time on their hands, and for readers who wish to know what ground has already been covered, and for anyone who is truly interested in finding out just what is behind the price of a loaf of bread and a carton of eggs, but mostly for all readers who genuinely dread the encroaching military-industrial police state and would like to learn who and what the "enemy" is, our Part One conspiracy theory thread is here:

http://thementalmilitia.com/forums/index.php?topic=2347.0

To begin Part Two, I would like to introduce a relatively unheard-of word: "Amero". Ever hear of that? What is an "Amero"? Since it is a part of the plan to destroy America, let's look into it.

~

Most people who see the word “Amero” will not have previously seen that word, nor heard of it. It is a word which is not discussed in America as yet. But, very possibly, and I would even say “most likely”, it shall most certainly become a household word in the near future. Let's be among the first to look into it.

To look into the Amero, we must go back a distance in history. To be fully informative for readers I should actually draw our attention backward in time to the American Revolution, but covering that much historic time, two and a third centuries, strikes many folks as being tedious and laborious, so let us just go back to the most recent century, beginning with the Administration of President Woodrow Wilson. The activity which had long been simmering in a slowly-heating pan on America's stove became much more visible by the earliest 1900s. For example, the years 1907, 1910, 1913, and 1917 were each fortuitous years, and each of those years featured realities which now may be seen to have been “ingredients” of a recipe for a dish that most Americans never knew (and still do not know) was being cooked-up for their, well, let us facetiously just say the dish was being cooked-up for their dining pleasure, as claimed by those who had written the recipe and hired the cooks.

Of course, what was being cooked-up was in truth a dish which the chefs and cooks, and indeed their employers themselves, from the start,  knew would have to ultimately be stuffed down the American people's collective throat, force-fed to them with a spoon symbolizing the full force and power of the Federal government of the United States of America. This force-feeding was foreseen to be “necessary”, and those who concocted and prepared the unsavory main course of the intended meal were well aware that the preparation would have to enlist the force of government in a very tasteless manner.

So they grouped together a number of like-minded men and tasked them to draw up the recipe in full, and that group of men came into the light of public knowledge at the end of World War I. By 1921 their recipe was largely contained within published papers, written articles, a few books, many public speeches, government proclamations, and in the charter of the Council on Foreign Relations. Yet in the furor of  the aftermath of WWI, the American people, having suffered the enormous number of losses of their sons in the European war-trenches of madness and horror, found themselves completely disinterested in a government speech, or in some paper written by a New York banker, or in the procedures of a corporate board meeting. Americans were by and large celebrating victory and licking their wounds and mourning their dead.

The men who employed the chefs and cooks to prepare back then a dish which today we are being force-fed knew that the American people were not focused on Wall Street to any degree at all, and were focused upon the doings in Washington DC only slightly if at all. While I have access to the history which shall verify the social and political climate of the 1910s and 1920s and 1930s, I'll spare the readers here that pooled knowledge, unless called for later. Instead, let us look at what happened very quietly on January 20, 1930. Ever hear of the BIS?

The BIS is the acronym for the Bank of International Settlements. The Bank of International Settlements is one of the most interesting banks ever created, for reasons I'd like to share with you below.

The BIS is the bank which owns the world. The BIS is the power which intends to destroy America as we've known it and convert America into a slave-state. It owns every American and employs each working American as its very own slave. Yes, if you work today, you are demonstrably a slave for the BIS, and most Americans do not even know this. In fact, most Americans have never even heard of the BIS. And in fact, most Americans have never heard of the “Amero”. Yet each time an American worker earns a dollar, the BIS is involved in many subtle, hidden, invisible ways. Please humor me by asking me to prove these statements.

To get at the truth of the BIS I must, regrettably, ask readers to not only inquire into the BIS and the Amero, but also to look into the CFR and the Trilateral Commission and a few other private-sector groups who work behind the scenes for the elite who dominate and employ the Bank of International Settlements. I'll keep that aspect of this portrayal down to a minimum, because I know well that most readers are reluctant to delve into such seemingly-unrelated subjects.  But there is really no way for we slaves to awaken to our chains and shackles unless we become willing to acknowledge that as a nation of people we have fallen into slavery in service to a massive but hidden agenda for world ownership – and the way we first may know that we need to awaken to that sad fact is in admitting that we are asked today to accept in our lives the existence of terrorism.

Terrorism relates to government which relates to finance which relates to “gross product” which relates to production which relates to you and me directly.

The primary purpose of an organization founded by David Rockefeller and Zbigniew Brzezinski, the Trilateral Commission, was to see the world as a grouping of three major regions: Europe, the Americas, and Asia – generally speaking. Part of the vision of Brzezinski includes seeing these three regions of the earth in terms of their regional economies. Seeing things in economic terms introduces the association of the political forces which affect any region's economic activity. And seeing things as tied together  or unified in a marriage of economic and political terms leads one directly to the motive to understand the influence and operation of those legal fictions which we call “governments”.  It is through the activities of governments that we may expect to wake up one day soon and find the Amero in our pockets instead of Dollars.

That is where the Bank of International Settlements comes in. It is the bank which sits atop the pyramid. On the next level below the pyramid's top rest the three geo-political regions desired by the Trilateral Commission. “Tri” equals “Three”. Below that level, third from the pyramid's top, exist the more than 180 various nation-states' governments – including the government of the United States of America. The chain of command spreads outwardly and downwardly from there. In the case of the USA, which is merely one of nearly two hundred nation-states in the pyramid of the BIS power-structure, the government organizes its agencies to reach into every activity in which we Americans participate each day of our lives – consuming, producing, re-creating, living. Every American who is “plugged into the system”, who is “on the grid”, who uses a social security number, uses banks, uses credit, owns property, works, attends schools, takes “vacations”, seeks entertainment, has inter-personal relationships, has a hobby, collects anything, pursues any interest whatsoever (other than freedom outlawry and resistance), is in the service of the BIS – and the BIS has legal claim of ownership over his life.

This all sounds pretty radical, does it not? No way could this be true, most readers will quickly assert. However, the case can be made, and I would like to try to make that case here.

Continued next post.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Bill St. Clair on April 01, 2006, 04:12:49 pm
Well, Elias, you've certainly whetted my apetite...
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Junker on April 01, 2006, 04:23:06 pm
... Please humor me by asking me to prove these statements.

. . .

... Continued next post.
- - -

Yes, please do. :)
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 01, 2006, 04:40:01 pm
To begin making that unsavory case, I will ask each reader to admit that he has heard of, or is aware of, a phenomenon called “the Euro”. I think it is safe to believe that every thinking American with any degree of cognizance at all has heard of the Euro. The more politically-aware American also knows that much concern is held in Washington DC and on Wall Street regarding the role being currently played in world affairs by the Euro. For example, US policy watches every minute of every day every activity relative to the function of the Euro, and the US government (USG) has already demonstrated that it will take instant – and militant – action if the Euro chances to be used in any way which could lever the US Dollar. Saddam Hussein, for example, was a deeply-involved trading partner with the US for about two decades, spending billions of dollars buying from us the products of our war-industry and selling billions of dollars worth of oil to us by the way. Suddenly Saddam became a bad person in the eyes of official US policy, and Bush 41 struck Saddam in Desert Storm. Know why? Because Saddam had dared to entertain the notion of pegging Iraqi oil to the Euro instead of to the US Dollar. No matter what else we've heard that attempts to rationalize and justify and explain our invasion of Iraq in Desert Storm, the central reason underlying our invasion of Iraq reveals a USG concern that Saddam was looking at the Euro as the prime motivator of the invasion.

[And to the observant and interested, we may also note today that Iran and Argentina also have shifted their monetary pegs from the Dollar to the Euro, or are in the process of doing so. Keep that in mind as we watch what unfolds in our headlines during the coming year.]

The purpose of the Trilateral Commission is to consolidate the global economy into three primary regions, as we've noted already. To do so, however, each of the three regions'  monetary systems and political/governmental systems must be integrated. Trilateralists call that process “convergence”.

Here is something interesting -

~ Quoting
For those American readers who do not grasp the significance of the adoption of the euro by European Union countries, consider how one American globalist describes it.
C. Fred Bergsten is a prominent and core Trilateral Commission member and head of the Institute for International Economics. On January 3, 1999, Bergsten wrote in the Washington Post
"The adoption of a common currency is by far the boldest chapter of European integration. Money traditionally has been an integral element of national sovereignty ...and the decision by Germany and France to give up their mark and franc ...represents the most dramatic voluntary surrender of sovereignty in recorded history. The European Central Bank that will manage the euro is a truly supranational institution".
~end quote.

(I will furnish the source for that quote soon enough.)

Now I would like to ask readers here to play a little association game for a moment. We all know that there exists a three-pronged effort by the Rockefeller-led private-sector powers of international finance to disintegrate the United States of America. The three prongs are named:
NAFTA  ~ (already passed by Congress and signed into law by White House)
CAFTA  ~ (just passed Congress months ago and signed into law by White House)
FTAA    ~ (failed to pass Congress in January 2005, sent back to drawing board and will soon reappear again)

Those three “trade agreements” are actually the mechanism which is being used to take down America's borders, integrate our legal system, merge our economic policy and unify the Western Hemisphere thereby. The Trilateral plan sees Europe, the Americas, and Asia as the three regions of the world which must be fully organized and controlled – as regions – before they shall ultimately be absorbed into a one-world government.

Once anyone understands this, it is no longer puzzling to see Bush 43 Administration leaving our borders wide open and offering amnesty to all illegal aliens. And -
 
Once anyone knows that basic fact about the three trade agreements being jammed down America's throat, one can begin to understand what is behind the Amero.

It is the same thing that stands behind the Euro. It is a part of a grand plan which has literally been formulated and executed to such a degree that the globalists may no longer rely upon secrecy to hide the plan.

The men who seek to control the world knew long ago that they faced many obstacles in accomplishing their goal of world ownership. What began as a secret conspiracy to do just that soon morphed, along about the 1960s,  into an openly-proclaimed plan. They came out of the closet, so to speak. It was during the 1960s that the powers came to know that they had reached a threshold, that they had accumulated enough regional controls over finance and governmental policy among the many nation-states on the membership rosters of the United Nations, and that their conspiracy no longer required hiding. They permitted, for example, Carroll Quigley to publish Tragedy And Hope.
 
Tragedy And Hope is an insider's view of the history of the conspiracy, and it tells their story, their history, in undebatable and undeniable clarity. In the book is the following statement:

"[....] The powers of financial capitalism had another far reaching plan, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalistic fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the system was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basle, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks, which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank, in the hands of men like Montagu Norman of the Bank of England, Benjamin Strong of the New York Federal Reserve Bank, Charles Rist of the Bank of France, and Hjalmar Schacht of the Reichsbank, sought to dominate its government by its ability to control treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence co-operative politicians by subsequent rewards in the business world."

I would say that Quigley spoke the truth, and I think I can show any reader here just how that has been done to us. I apologize for alluding to distant historic fact, but we're going to have to acknowledge that our day today was preceded by something we call "yesterday" or "the past", and what happened yesterday sat the stage for what is happening today - so I see no way around our need to know the past if we intend to understand the present.

I'll be back next post with more on Mr. Carroll Quigley and his relationship with the money-masters who seek to destroy America.
Meanwhile, here is the scoop on his amazing book.

Tragedy And Hope: A History Of The World In Our Time
by Carroll Quigley; copyright 1966 by Carroll Quigley; first published by Macmillan, New York; current publisher: GSG and Associates, Post Office Box 590, San Pedro, California, 90733; phone – 310-548-3455; Library of Congress catalog card member: 65-13589.

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 01, 2006, 05:34:58 pm

Former U.S. President Bill Clinton was a Rhodes Scholar when he attended Georgetown University. One of his mentors there was Professor Carroll Quigley, who himself was a Rhodes Scholar. Bill Clinton appreciated Professor Quigley's tutorage, as we learned in 1991 when Bill Clinton rendered his acceptance speech to the DNC.

In his acceptance speech Clinton praised his Georgetown mentor, Professor Carroll Quigley:

“I heard that call clarified by a professor I had named Carroll Quigley...” -  President Bill Clinton

I mention this Quigley-Clinton connection for several reasons. One reason is that both Clinton and Quigley were Rhodes Scholars, a fact which leads to further connections, in that Quigley, like Clinton, had a Rhodes Scholar relationship with his own mentor, the administrator of the Rhodes Scholarship Fund and the Rhodes Trust, Lord Milner.  Lord Milner had been appointed by Cecil Rhodes himself to further Rhodes' work by administering those two funding institutions. So Bill Clinton was connected to Quigley, who was connected to Lord Milner, who was connected to Cecil Rhodes himself.

But the connections do not stop there. Just one step back in the lineage of connections between these monoply-capitalistic socialists of the British Empire stood Cecil Rhodes' own 'mentor', Lord Rothschild of the House of Rothschild, for whom Rhodes consolidated the gold mines of South Africa and created the international De Beers diamond syndicate – done with of course the financial backing of the House of Rothschild.

So we have a direct descent from the House of Rothschild to Cecil Rhodes to Lord Milner to Carroll Quigley to Bill Clinton. That is one reason I noted the piece of trivia above regarding Clinton's having mentioned Carroll Quigley in his 1991 acceptance speech before the DNC.


We have seen previously how the CIA uses banks, especially proprietary banks,  as an integral part of its infrastructure. [Recall: Castle Bank and Trust of Nassau; Nugan-Hand Bank; and BCCI] We have seen previously how governments use banks, especially central banks which relate to respective governments. Particularly, we have noted that it was the Houses of Rothschild, Warburg, Rockefeller, and Morgan which gave us the Federal Reserve System, Inc., which is America's central bank. Perhaps now it's time to look into the ways by which the invisible world leaders do business through the banking game.
~
If we consider our view of governments in general, we may say that each government exists as it inter-relates within a world of governments. Each government exercises the dispersion of authority through its respective infrastructures of hierarchy. Thusly we may say that throughout that dispersion of authority each incremental movement downward and outward from the top of the authority pyramid is accompanied by a financial translation into the Policy within each participant government. And as we have also already noted, that is where the political Players arrive on the scene.

Recalling earlier passages from the history of the CFR by Peter Grose, we remember that Colonel Edward Mandel House, Woodrow Wilson's closest adviser and aide, had helped engineer The Inquiry, the Paris Peace Conference of 1919, the League of Nations, and finally the Council on Foreign Relations in 1921. We know that Colonel House wrote openly and published in his book, Philip Drew: Administrator (2), his affection for what could be called “socialism in the tradition of Karl Marx”.
 
Thusly by deed and by the written word, Colonel Edward Mandel House, aide and personal adviser to the very President who gave us the Federal Reserve System, Inc., the Federal Income Tax, a questionably-ratified 16th Amendment, and our entry-by-deception into World War One, was truly devoted to the socialist/globalist Anglo-American bid for world domination. The man did so, and the man said so in his published book, and that stands as uncontested  history. As LaRouche would dub it, House's view affords a glimpse into the “Anglo-American special relationship”.

I mention that because it is relative to what happened after World War I, when the Dawes Plan and the Young Plan came into play. Once again withholding my source on this until later, let us look at the following passages from an excellent observer:

~ Quoting
As we will see, the BIS was founded in 1930 during a very troubled time in history. Some knowledge of that history is critical to understanding why the BIS was created, and for whose benefit.

There are three figures that play prominently in the founding of the BIS: Charles G. Dawes, Owen D. Young and Hjalmar Schacht of Germany.

Charles G. Dawes was director of the U.S. Bureau of the Budget in 1921, and served on the Allied Reparations Commission starting in 1923. His latter work on "stabilizing Germany's economy" earned him the Nobel Peace Prize in 1925. After being elected Vice President under President Calvin Coolidge from 1925-1929, and appointed Ambassador to England in 1931, he resumed his personal banking career in 1932 as chairman of the board of the City National Bank and Trust in Chicago, where he remained until his death in 1951.

Owen D Young was an American industrialist. He founded RCA (Radio Corporation of America) in1919 and was its chairman until 1933. He also served as the chairman of General Electric from 1922 until 1939. In 1932, Young sought the democratic presidential nomination, but lost to Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

More on Hjalmar Schacht later.

In the aftermath of World War I and the impending collapse of the German economy and political structure, a plan was needed to rescue and restore Germany, which would also insulate other economies in Europe from being affected adversely.
The Versailles Treaty of 1919 (which officially ended WWI) had imposed a very heavy reparations burden on Germany, which required a repayment schedule of 132 billion gold marks per year. Most historians agree that the economic upheaval caused in Germany by the Versailles Treaty eventually led to Adolph Hitler's rise to power.

In 1924 the Allies appointed a committee of international bankers, led by Charles G. Dawes (and accompanied by J.P. Morgan agent, Owen Young), to develop a plan to get reparations payments back on track. Historian Carroll Quigley noted that the Dawes Plan was "largely a J.P. Morgan production". The plan called for $800 million in foreign loans to be arranged for Germany in order to rebuild its economy.

In 1924, Dawes was chairman of the Allied Committee of Experts, hence, the "Dawes Plan." He was replaced as chairman by Owen Young in 1929, with direct support by J.P. Morgan. The "Young Plan" of 1928 put more teeth into the Dawes Plan, which many viewed as a strategy to subvert virtually all German assets to back a huge mortgage held by the United States bankers.
Neither Dawes nor Young represented anything more than banking interests. After all, WWI was fought by governments using borrowed money made possible by the international banking community. The banks had a vested interest in having those loans repaid!

In 1924, the president of Reichsbank (Germany's central bank at that time) was Hjalmar Schacht. He had already had a prominent role in creating the Dawes Plan, along with German industrialist Fritz Thyssen and other prominent German bankers and industrialists.
The Young Plan was so odious to the Germans that many credit it as a precondition to Hitler's rise to power. Fritz Thyssen, a leading Nazi Industrialist, stated

"I turned to the National socialist party only after I became convinced that the fight against the Young Plan was unavoidable if complete collapse of Germany was to be prevented." 

Some historians too quickly credit Owen Young as the idea-man for the Bank for International Settlements. It was actually Hjalmar Schacht who first proposed the idea, which was then carried forward by the same group of international bankers who brought us the Dawes and Young Plans.
~ end Quote

In thinking about what we've just read, we recall from our original old conspiracy theory thread that Fritz Thyssen was in business with Prescott Bush, George Herbert Walker, E. Roland Harriman, and Averell Harriman at Harriman Brothers and Union Banking Corporation on Wall Street. And we recall that our current President's grandfather's Union Banking Corporation was seized under the Trading With The Enemy Act in October, 1942, months after the US had declared war on Germany. So when we today compare George Walker Bush and his war-mongering neo-con Cabinet with Hitler and the Third Reich, there is after all a basis in truth for the comparison. More on that later.

Harriman Brothers and Union Banking were two of the major Wall Street companies doing business with Germany during Germany's reconstruction following WWI. When Hitler came to power in 1933 these companies and others made use of the Dawes and Young plans. When the BIS was established in 1930, its secrecy facilitated such antics as Harriman Brothers and Union Banking Corporation's funding of Hitler's Brown Shirts through misuse of the Hamburg-Amerika Steamship Lines.

In other words, if the banksters on Wall street wished to get some money to Hitler for funding his dictatorial policies in Germany, (which they most certainly did, as we shall see), but they did not wish for that money transfer to be discovered or traced publicly, all they had to do was make a deposit into the Bank of International Settlements, from which Hitler would later receive payment. Pretty neat little system, eh?

Also we notice that U.S. major corporations were placing private-sector giants (founder and head of RCA, for example – although there were scores of others doing similar tricks) in the arena of governmental policy, its making and execution. I know that some readers here are already keenly aware of this liaison between government and private-sector interests, but I shall continue to draw this fact into light on this thread because it is one direct piece of evidence which supports our “conspiracy theory”.
But in my next post I would like to get back to the Bank of International Settlements and show this thread just how insidious and monstrous that quiet entity of evil actually is.

Thank you, Bill St.Clair and Junker, for the interest and the encouragement. And also, I thank you both for the work you've already done on our old original conspiracy theory thread, which of course predisposed me to begin anew here. I would like for this thread to be our gift to TCF, as it shall be comprised of dated entries which shall become a benchmark of hope for all us little people of the world. I mean, if little people like us can discover what Basil Fishbone dubs “the inconvenient history”, there exists evermore thereafter a true hope that anyone can discover the truth.

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Bill St. Clair on April 01, 2006, 05:58:16 pm
I have one question about this huge conspiracy. No need to answer it right away if the narrative as a whole will do so.

I don't understand the desire for power. Personally, I find it difficult enough being responsible for my own life. Being responsible for my children is already a nearly impossible burden. I can't imagine wanting to be in control of, hence responsible for, a large number of other people. I suppose if I could decouple control from responsibility, completely shirking the responsibility that to my thinking comes as part and parcel of control, I might want power. But I can't. I can imagine it, though.

What I can't imagine, is working towards global control over a period of many generations. I can see wanting power now, for yourself, but wanting power 100 years from now? For your ancestors? I don't get it.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: ladylearning on April 01, 2006, 08:13:40 pm
What I can't imagine, is working towards global control over a period of many generations. I can see wanting power now, for yourself, but wanting power 100 years from now? For your ancestors? I don't get it.

It is, indeed, quite intriqing. As there is negative and positive in all energy, within the human psyche there is light and dark, good and bad, the ying and yang. There lies within us the seed of evil or greatness. This singularity of purpose you speak of above can also be sighted in the instances of 300 year old masterpieces of Chinese dynasty art which had been worked by the hands of several generations of the same family. It would seem near impossible to do that given the immediacy of our 21st century thinking and lifestytle but many disciplines still practice it today.  The scientific world for instance.  Scientists are much like those ancient artists. They focus of one sqaure inch of their particular universe in hopes it will yield a far greater impact for those that follow and will, somehow, give us the key to the entire universe of knowledge.
Conspiricies of World dominance can generally be traced back to cults or secret societies. Within these societies are disciplines which are never questioned. It is the darker side of this discipline. It is not so much for each particular "player" to have the control of the world as it is to do their part in laying the ground work for those that follow.
There is a huge framework that must be in place before the final hand can be played. Those initiated into these societies are disciplined to complete that task of laying the groundwork.
I do, however, sense a growing acceleration of the "plan" as evidenced by the continued curtailment of freedoms we enjoy, the bombardment of carefully orchestrated programming via CFR contolled media and the entertainment moguls, and the uneasiness of folks like myself that sense the calm before the storm.

LL
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 01, 2006, 09:31:14 pm
Note: As I came online to post this, I discovered that ladylearning had already given a reply to Bill's questions. While hers makes better sense than my explanation, I'll add my thoughts here anyway. (Nice to see you working the boards once again, ladylearning!)

I have one question about this huge conspiracy. No need to answer it right away if the narrative as a whole will do so.

I don't understand the desire for power. Personally, I find it difficult enough being responsible for my own life. Being responsible for my children is already a nearly impossible burden. I can't imagine wanting to be in control of, hence responsible for, a large number of other people. I suppose if I could decouple control from responsibility, completely shirking the responsibility that to my thinking comes as part and parcel of control, I might want power. But I can't. I can imagine it, though.

What I can't imagine, is working towards global control over a period of many generations. I can see wanting power now, for yourself, but wanting power 100 years from now? For your ancestors? I don't get it.

Bill, that is an excellent question. And your intuition regarding my intent to reveal your answer as this thread unfolds is spot-on and correct. Soon enough we shall see more deeply into the motivation behind this insane desire to rule the world. As I tried to remind Boston over at his message boards, "motive" is a valid aspect of any criminal investigation, for good reason.

As you know, I am not a member in any religion, so what I'm about to say, although treated extensively by most all religions, is coming from me as purely psychological input. I do not claim to be able to "prove" what I'm about to say, and I have no wish to defend what follows as being true for anyone outside myself. I will however share it with you here because it is the only way I know to offer you any sort of answer to your question. Please overlook this if it seems to be too weird. :)

There are two primary sources for all human thought. I call those two sources "Love" and "Fear". It is like they both reside inside each human psyche as vortexes through which all mentality passes into consciousness. As I see it, every thought available to a human mind comes through one or the other of those two vortexes - love, or fear; good, or evil. Since the mind may be defined as the sum of its content, how anyone chooses that content is the statement of one's condition of being-ness. In other words, if I entertain a fear thought, give it "air time" in my consciousness, that thought is a part of my mentality. If I choose to not entertain that thought, but to instead replace it with a thought which I would value more, then the latter thought is that which is a part of my mentality - hence, there is a simple purpose in "minding what one thinks".

The result of my choices regarding which thoughts to keep, and which thoughts to discard, is the characterizing statement of my will. It is also a testament of my values. And it also is one of the determinants of my own health as a person, and of my happiness as a person.

The task of awakening any individual to his right, capability, and self-duty to monitor the content of his mind is the objective of all known religions and most philosophies. I take that to mean that we as humans are born with the conflict between good and evil already inherent within each new-born baby's mind. It is a subject central to all great literature and art. It is one's daily task and responsibility, for it accrues with each passing day to build the foundations of one's perception and ultimately one's vision of life.

Therefore: when a fear thought would enter my mind, I notice it and then promptly kick it out of my head. Sometimes, I do a better job of monitoring myself than

I do at other times; but the point here is that I am aware that I must be ever vigilant about which thoughts I allow to remain in my mind and which thoughts I do not want cluttering up my mentality. I try to pick only the thoughts of love's thought system, which are manifested by such things as patience, forgiveness, joy, happiness, pleasure, confidence, playfulness, everything that relates to such things. I try to dismiss quickly any thought coming from fear's thought system, which would include misery, a sense of lack, insecurity, acute need, jealousy, enviousness, greed, and, to get to your answer finally, the fear of death.

I personally think, or "feel", that those sick-minded people who deliberately seek to gain ownership over the world and execute that ownership through the vehicle of a one-world government are basically driven by ideation which derives from fear's thought system. I think they fear extinction, fear death, fear the loss of life, fear the loss of control over their fate, fear that they must finally leave this world. I think that they are materialists at heart and that they attach their "identities" to their bodies, and thereby to their bloodlines - which could explain how it is that they can and do plan for their heirs to own a world in which they themselves could never realize such ownership. I think they harbor thoughts of lack, of insecurity, of immeasurable need, and of general unhappiness. And I think that they are afraid to face themselves, afraid to face what lies hidden in the center of their fearful minds, afraid to face the truth regarding their responsibilities as souls.  I think they are pathological, un-enlightened, and therefore very dangerous because while denying their own pathology in order to prolong it and pass it through their genetic hierarchies, they feel that their view of life is the superior view.

Keep all this in mind as this thread unfolds, Bill. Shortly I will be looking into the last will and testament of Cecil Rhodes, who bothered to write down an amazing statement of a perverted and vile form of British supremacy [and white supremacy] to leave behind him. It is fascinating to read.  In my next post I'll get back to the BIS and its dirty business. But along the way, I'll be glad to continue to discuss this aspect of things with you as well. Sick mentality goes hand in hand with anyone's insane desire to own the world. As we look more deeply into the workings of those men of power who have done this to America, we shall note in amazement just how evil their pathology has grown to be. It is true - they not only want to own and control the planet's human population; they also want to reduce that population by several billion souls. In other words, they want to get rid of between three and four billion of us - now. Unfortunately, they have now the means, which is another aspect of the conspiracy. I intend to cover all these points and aspects, the many facets of the conspiracy.

What you and I and our good neighbors may benefit from remembering always is that not everyone sees the same world which we see, and not everyone means well. Some people have deliberately destroyed their consciences, as we shall see soon enough.

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: henshawe on April 01, 2006, 09:53:42 pm
Elais,

Re: your last post in answer to Bill St Clair as to why these SOB's continue to persue this insane idea of world domination generation after generation, this is possibly the best explication I have ever read, anywhere!! and I have read extensively in this topic for many years and have even obtained a M.Div. in an attempt to help me understand what's going on in these sociopaths heads.

Your explanation is spot on the money, bro. Well done.

As to the thread its self, I have an  idea where your going with it, so I will sit back, have dos equis xx or six  :laugh: and a bit of the sacred weed and enjoy the lecture presentation. :mellow:

Regards,

Americus
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 01, 2006, 09:54:54 pm
I am going to paste in here now two back-to-back posts which I have copied from a website which I am presently studying intensely. I will place the link for all this at the end of the next post after this one. This is but an excerpt from that link:
~

The Hague Agreement of 1930


The formation of the BIS was agreed upon by its constituent central banks in the so-called Hague Agreement on January 20, 1930, and was in operation shortly thereafter. According to the Agreement,
 
"The duly authorised representatives of the Governments of Germany, of Belgium, of France, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, of Italy and of Japan of the one part; And the duly authorised representatives of the Government of the Swiss Confederation of the other part Assembled at the Hague Conference in the month of January, 1930, have agreed on the following:
 
"Article 1. Switzerland undertakes to grant to the Bank for International Settlements, without delay, the following Constituent Charter having force of law: not to abrogate this Charter, not to amend or add to it, and not to sanction amendments to the Statutes of the Bank referred to in Paragraph 4 of the Charter otherwise than in agreement with the other signatory Governments."
 
As we will see, German reparation payments (or lack thereof) had little to do with the founding of the BIS, although this is the weak explanation given since its founding. Of course, Germany would make a single payment to the BIS, which in turn would deposit the funds into the respective central bank accounts of the nations to whom payments were due. (It would be the subject of another paper to show the shallowness of this operation: Money and gold were shuffled around, but the net amount that Germany actually paid was very small.)

The original founding documents of the BIS have little to say about Germany, however, and we can look directly to the BIS itself to see its original purpose:

“The objects of the Bank are: to promote the co-operation of central banks and to provide additional facilities for international operations; and to act as trustees or agent in regard to international financial settlements entrusted to it under agreements with the parties concerned.”

Virtually every in-print reference to the BIS, including their own documents, consistently refer to it as "the central banker's central bank."

So, the BIS was established by an international charter and was headquartered in Basle, Switzerland.

BIS Ownership

According to James C. Baker, pro-BIS author of The Bank for International Settlements: Evolution and Evaluation, "The BIS was formed with funding by the central banks of six nations, Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, and the United Kingdom. In addition, three private international banks from the United States also assisted in financing the establishment of the BIS."7
Each nation's central bank subscribed to 16,000 shares. The U.S. central bank, the Federal Reserve, did not join the BIS, but the three U.S. banks that participated got 16,000 shares each. Thus, U.S. representation at the BIS was three times that of any other nation. Who were these private banks? Not surprisingly, they were J.P. Morgan & Company, First National Bank of New York and First National Bank of Chicago.

On January 8, 2001, an Extraordinary General Meeting of the BIS approved a proposal that restricted ownership of BIS shares to central banks. Some 13.7% of all shares were in private hands at that time, and the repurchase was accomplished with a cash outlay of $724,956,050. The price of $10,000 per share was over twice the book value of $4,850.

It is not certain what the repurchase accomplished. The BIS claimed that it was to correct a conflict of interest between private shareholders and BIS goals, but it offered no specifics. It was not a voting issue, however, because private owners were not allowed to vote their shares.

Sovereignty and Secrecy

It is not surprising that the BIS, its offices, employees, directors and members share an incredible immunity from virtually all regulation, scrutiny and accountability.
 
In 1931, central bankers and their constituents were fed up with government meddling in world financial affairs. Politicians were viewed mostly with contempt, unless it was one of their own who was the politician. Thus, the BIS offered them a once-and-for-all opportunity to set up the "apex" the way they really wanted it -- private. They demanded these conditions and got what they demanded.

A quick summary of their immunity, explained further below, includes:

diplomatic immunity for persons and what they carry with them (i.e., diplomatic pouches)
no taxation on any transactions, including salaries paid to employees
embassy-type immunity for all buildings and/or offices operated by the BIS
no oversight or knowledge of operations by any government authority
freedom from immigration restrictions
freedom to encrypt any and all communications of any sort
freedom from any legal jurisdiction
 
Further, members of the BIS board of directors (for instance, Alan Greenspan) are individually granted special benefits:

“immunity from arrest or imprisonment and immunity from seizure of their personal baggage, save in flagrant cases of criminal offence;”
“inviolability of all papers and documents;”
“immunity from jurisdiction, even after their mission has been accomplished, for acts carried out in the discharge of their duties, including words spoken and writings;”
“exemption for themselves, their spouses and children from any immigration restrictions, from any formalities concerning the registration of aliens and from any obligations relating to national service in Switzerland ;”
“the right to use codes in official communications or to receive or send documents or correspondence by means of couriers or diplomatic bags.”
 
Lastly, all remaining officials and employees of the BIS have the following immunities:

“immunity from jurisdiction for acts accomplished in the discharge of their duties, including words spoken and writings, even after such persons have ceased to be Officials of the Bank;”[bold emphasis added]
“exemption from all Federal, cantonal and communal taxes on salaries, fees and allowances paid to them by the Bank…”
exempt from Swiss national obligations, freedom for spouses and family members from immigration restrictions, transfer assets and properties – including internationally – with the same degree of benefit as Officials of other international organizations.11
Of course, a corporate charter can say anything it wants to say and still be subject to outside authorities. Nevertheless, these were the immunities practiced and enjoyed from 1930 onward. On February 10, 1987, a more formal acknowledgment called the "Headquarters Agreement" was executed between the BIS and the Swiss Federal Council and basically clarified and reiterated what we already knew:

Article 2
Inviolability
The buildings or parts of buildings and surrounding land which, whoever may be the owner thereof, are used for the purposes of the Bank shall be inviolable. No agent of the Swiss public authorities may enter therein without the express consent of the Bank. Only the President, the General Manager of the Bank, or their duly authorised representative shall be competent to waive such inviolability.

The archives of the Bank and, in general, all documents and any data media belonging to the Bank or in its possession, shall be inviolable at all times and in all places.

The Bank shall exercise supervision of and police power over its premises.

Article 4
Immunity from jurisdiction and execution

The Bank shall enjoy immunity from criminal and administrative jurisdiction, save to the extent that such immunity is formally waived in individual cases by the President, the General Manager of the Bank, or their duly authorised representative.

The assets of the Bank may be subject to measures of compulsory execution for enforcing monetary claims. On the other hand, all deposits entrusted to the Bank, all claims against the Bank and the shares issued by the Bank shall, without the prior agreement of the Bank, be immune from seizure or other measures of compulsory execution and sequestration, particularly of attachment within the meaning of Swiss law.

As you can see, the BIS, its directors and employees (past and present) can do virtually anything and everything they want, with complete secrecy, immunity and with no one looking over their shoulders. It was truly a banker's dream come true, and it paved the international freeway for the rampant financial globalism that we see manifest today.
 
Day-to-Day Operations

Acting as a central bank, the BIS has sweeping powers to do anything for its own account or for the account of its member central banks. It is like a two-way power-of-attorney – any party can act as agent for any other party.

Article 21 of the original BIS statutes define day-to-day operations:

1.buying and selling of gold coin or bullion for its own account or for the account of central banks;
2.holding gold for its own account under reserve in central banks;
3.accepting the supervision of gold for the account of central banks;
4.making advances to or borrowing from central banks against gold, bills of exchange, and other short-term obligations of prime liquidity or other approved securities;
5.discounting, rediscounting, purchasing, or selling with or without its endorsement bills of exchange, checks, and other short-term obligations of prime liquidity;
6.buying and selling foreign exchange for its own account or for the account of central banks;
7.buying and selling negotiable securities other than shares for its own account or for the account of central banks;
8.discounting for central banks bills taken from their portfolio and rediscounting with central banks bills taken from its own portfolio;
9.opening and maintaining current or deposit accounts with central banks;
10.accepting deposits from central banks on current or deposit account;
11.accepting deposits in connection with trustee agreements that may be made between the BIS and governments in connection with international settlements.;
12.accepting such other deposits that, as in the opinion of the Board of the BIS, come within the scope of the BIS’ functions.
 
The BIS also may
1.act as agent or correspondent for any central bank
2.arrange with any central bank for the latter to act as its agent or correspondent;
3.enter into agreements to act as trustee or agent in connection with international settlements, provided that such agreements will not encroach on the obligations of the BIS toward any third parties.14
Why is "agency" an important issue? Because any member of the network can obscure transactions from onlookers. For instance, if Brown Brothers, Harriman wanted to transfer money to a company in Nazi Germany during WWII (which was not "politically correct" at that time), they would first transfer the funds to the BIS thus putting the transaction under the cloak of secrecy and immunity that is enjoyed by the BIS but not by Brown Brothers, Harriman. (Such laundering of Wall Street money was painstakingly noted in Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler, by Antony C. Sutton.)

There are a few things that the BIS cannot do. For instance, it does not accept deposits from, or provide financial services to, private individuals or corporate entities. It is also not permitted to make advances to governments or open current accounts in their name.15 These restrictions are easily understood when one considers that each central bank has an exclusive franchise to loan money to their respective government. For instance, the U.S. Federal Reserve does not loan money to the government of Canada. In like manner, central banks do not loan money directly to the private or corporate clients of their member banks.
 
How Decisions are Made

The board of directors consist of the heads of certain member central banks. Currently, these are:

Nout H E M Wellink, Amsterdam (Chairman of the Board of Directors)
Hans Tietmeyer, Frankfurt am Main (Vice-Chairman)
Axel Weber, Frankfurt am Main
Vincenzo Desario, Rome
Antonio Fazio, Rome
David Dodge, Ottawa
Toshihiko Fukui, Tokyo
Timothy F Geithner, New York
Alan Greenspan, Washington
Lord George, London
Hervé Hannoun, Paris
Christian Noyer, Paris
Lars Heikensten, Stockholm
Mervyn  King, London
Guy Quaden, Brussels
Jean-Pierre Roth, Zürich
Alfons Vicomte Verplaetse, Brussels16

Of these, five members ( Canada, Japan, the Netherlands, Sweden and Switzerland) are currently elected by the shareholders. The majority of directors are "ex officio," meaning they are permanent and are automatically a part of any sub-committee.
The combined board meets at least six times per year, in secret, and is briefed by BIS management on financial operations of the bank. Global monetary policy is discussed and set at these meetings.

It was reported in 1983 that there is an inner club of the half dozen central bankers who are more or less in the same monetary boat: Germany, U.S., Switzerland, Italy, Japan and England.17 The existence of an inner club is neither surprising nor substantive: the whole BIS operation is 100% secret anyway. It is not likely that members of the inner club have significantly different beliefs or agendas apart from the BIS as a whole.
~

end excerpt. new excerpt follows immediately, with link to this source.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 01, 2006, 10:18:19 pm
Another longish excerpt regarding the Bank of International Settlements. The source  shall be linked at the end of this post. I urge anyone curious about why there is a police state, government intrusion, economic havoc, an assault on the US Constitution, wars upon wars, weapons of mass destruction, oppressive taxation, and terrorism world-wide, to read that link and think on what this thread has already revealed.

Then gear up, because we're going to take 'er to the next level soon enough.

~

How the BIS works with the IMF and the World Bank

The interoperation between the three entities is understandably confusing to most people, so a little clarification will help.
 
The International Monetary Fund (IMF) interacts with governments whereas the BIS interacts only with other central banks. The IMF loans money to national governments, and often these countries are in some kind of fiscal or monetary crisis. Furthermore, the IMF raises money by receiving "quota" contributions from its 184 member countries. Even though the member countries may borrow money to make their quota contributions, it is, in reality, all tax-payer money.
 
The World Bank also lends money and has 184 member countries. Within the World Bank are two separate entities, the International Bank for Reconstruction and Development (IBRD) and the International Development Association (IDA). The IBRD focuses on middle income and credit-worthy poor countries, while the IDA focuses on the poorest of nations. In funding itself, the World Bank borrows money by direct lending from banks and by floating bond issues, and then loans this money through IBRD and IDA to troubled countries.
 
The BIS, as central bank to the other central banks, facilitates the movement of money. They are well-known for issuing "bridge loans" to central banks in countries where IMF or World Bank money is pledged but has not yet been delivered. These bridge loans are then repaid by the respective governments when they receive the funds that had been promised by the IMF or World Bank.
 
The IMF is the BIS' "ace in the hole" when monetary crisis hits. The 1998 Brazil currency crisis was caused by that country's inability to pay inordinate accumulated interest on loans made over a protracted period of time. These loans were extended by banks like Citigroup, J.P. Morgan Chase and FleetBoston, and they stood to lose a huge amount of money.
 
The IMF, along with the World Bank and the U.S., bailed out Brazil with a $41.5 billion package that saved Brazil, its currency and, not incidentally, certain private banks.

Congressman Bernard Sanders (I-VT), ranking member of the International Monetary Policy and Trade Subcommittee, blew the whistle on this money laundry operation. Sander's entire congressional press release is worth reading:

IMF Bailout for Brazil is Windfall to Banks, Disaster for US Taxpayers Says Sanders

BURLINGTON, VERMONT - August 15 - Congressman Bernard Sanders (I-VT), the Ranking Member of the International Monetary Policy and Trade Subcommittee, today called for an immediate Congressional investigation of the recent $30 billion International Monetary Fund (IMF) bailout of Brazil.
 
Sanders, who is strongly opposed to the bailout and considers it corporate welfare, wants Congress to find out why U.S. taxpayers are being asked to provide billions of dollars to Brazil and how much of this money will be funneled to U.S. banks such as Citigroup, FleetBoston and J.P. Morgan Chase. These banks have about $25.6 billion in outstanding loans to Brazilian borrowers. U.S. taxpayers currently fund the IMF through a $37 billion line of credit.

Sanders said, "At a time when we have a $6 trillion national debt, a growing federal deficit, and an increasing number of unmet social needs for our veterans, seniors, and children, it is unacceptable that billions of U.S. taxpayer dollars are being sent to the IMF to bailout Brazil."
 
"This money is not going to significantly help the poor people of that country. The real winners in this situation are the large, profitable U.S. banks such as Citigroup that have made billions of dollars in risky investments in Brazil and now want to make sure their investments are repaid. This bailout represents an egregious form of corporate welfare that must be put to an end. Interestingly, these banks have made substantial campaign contributions to both political parties," the Congressman added.
 
Sanders noted that the neo-liberal policies of the IMF developed in the 1980's pushing countries towards unfettered free trade, privatization, and slashing social safety nets has been a disaster for Latin America and has contributed to increased global poverty throughout the world. At the same time that Latin America countries such as Brazil and Argentina followed these neo-liberal dictates imposed by the IMF, from 1980-2000, per capita income in Latin America grew at only one-tenth the rate of the previous two decades.

Sanders continued, "The policies of the IMF over the past 20 years advocating unfettered free trade, privatizing industry, deregulation and slashing government investments in health, education, and pensions has been a complete failure for low income and middle class families in the developing world and in the United States . Clearly, these policies have only helped corporations in their constant search for the cheapest labor and weakest environmental regulations. Congress must work on a new global policy that protects workers, increases living standards and improves the environment."

One can surmise that a financial circle exists where the World Bank helps nations get into debt, then when these countries can't pay their massive loans, the IMF bails them out with taxpayer money -- and in the middle stands the BIS, collecting fees as the money travels back and forth like the ocean tide, while assuring everyone that all is well.
 
BIS dumps gold-backed Swiss Francs for SDRs

On March 10, 2003, the BIS abandoned the Swiss gold franc as the bank's unit of account since 1930, and replaced it with the SDR.

SDR stands for Special Drawing Rights and is a unit of currency originally created by the IMF. According to Baker,
"The SDR is an international reserve asset, created by the IMF in 1969 to supplement the existing official reserves of member countries. SDR's are allocated to member countries in proportion to their IMF quotas. The SDR also serves as the unit of account of the IMF and some other international organizations. Its value is based on a basket of key international currencies."
 
This "basket" currently consists of the euro, Japanese yen, pound sterling and the U.S. dollar. [EA note: soon to be the Amero]

The BIS abandonment of the 1930 gold Swiss franc removed all restraint from the creation of paper money in the world. In other words, gold backs no national currency, leaving the central banks a wide-open field to create money as they alone see fit.

 Remember, that almost all the central banks in the world are privately-held entities, with an exclusive franchise to arrange loans for their respective host countries.
 
Regional and Global Currencies: SDR's, Euros and Ameros

There is no doubt that the BIS is moving the world toward regional currencies and ultimately, a global currency. The global currency could well be an evolution of the SDR, and may explain why the BIS recently adopted the SDR as its primary reserve currency.
 
The Brandt Equation, 21st Century Blueprint for the New Global Economy notes, for instance, that
 
Since the SDR is the world's only means of meeting international payments that has been authorized through international contract, "The SDR therefore represents a clear first step towards a stable and permanent international currency"

As to regional currencies, the BIS has already been hugely successful in launching the euro in Europe. Armed with new technical and social know-how, the BIS' next logical step is to focus on America and Asia.

For instance, according to BIS Papers No. 17, Regional currency areas and the use of foreign currencies,
"Canada, Mexico and the United States are members of the trade group NAFTA. Given the high proportion of Canada and Mexico’s trade with the United States, a NAFTA dollar or “Amero” has been proposed by some Canadian academics such as Grubel (1999). See also Beine and Coulombe (2002) and Robson and Laidler (2002)."

Assuming that NAFTA permanently identifies Canada, the U.S. and Mexico as one trading block, then North America will look like the European Union and the Amero will function like the Euro. All of the work put into the SDR would be perfectly preserved by simply substituting the Amero for the U.S. dollar when they choose to bring the Amero to ascendancy over the dollar. [EA note: at the time this article was published, the U.S. Congress had not yet passed into law the CAFTA, which is now passed and signed.]

(snip)

Conclusions
Our credo is "Follow the money, follow the power." This report has endeavored to follow the money. We find that:
The BIS is central bank to all major central banks in the world
It is privately owned by central banks themselves, most of whom are also private [EA note:  Federal Reserve is secret and private]
It was founded under questionable circumstances by questionable people
It is accountable to no one, especially government bodies
It operates in complete secrecy and is inviolable
Movement of money is obscured and hidden when routed through the BIS
The BIS is targeting regional currency blocks and ultimately, a global currency
It has been hugely successful at building the New International Economic Order, along with its attendant initiatives on global governance.

As to "follow the power," another paper will more fully explore the influence of power that the BIS exerts over other banks, nations and governments. For your own consideration in the meantime, Proverbs 22:7 provides a useful compass: "The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender".

NOTE: Carl Teichrib, World Research Library Senior Fellow, contributed to this report.
~
end excerpt from this source:
http://www.augustreview.com/index.php?module=pagesetter&func=viewpub&tid=4&pid=8
 
their home page is here:
http://www.augustreview.com

It's the weekend. I hope interested readers find time to go to that site and take a long, deep read. It is one of the finest sources I've encountered to date.

There are several reasons why I did not link this source earlier in the thread, as I'm sure now some of you understand. :)

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 02, 2006, 01:58:57 am
... Please humor me by asking me to prove these statements.

(snip)

Yes, please do. :)

Junker, you responded to this paragraph:
Quote
The BIS is the bank which owns the world. The BIS is the power which intends to destroy America as we've known it and convert America into a slave-state. It owns every American and employs each working American as its very own slave. Yes, if you work today, you are demonstrably a slave for the BIS, and most Americans do not even know this. In fact, most Americans have never even heard of the BIS. And in fact, most Americans have never heard of the “Amero”. Yet each time an American worker earns a dollar, the BIS is involved in many subtle, hidden, invisible ways. Please humor me by asking me to prove these statements.

Okay, let's take it from the average working-class Joe on the streets of America. First, I said that the BIS owns the world - meaning to imply that those few people who control the BIS own the world. By now, having read the preceding entries here by me, you probably already know clearly that the BIS operates, contols, regulates, and supervises the World Bank and the IMF, as well as each nation-state's Central Bank, which for our Joe on the job here in America  is the Federal Reserve System, Incorporated - a privately-held "for-profit" corporation whose owners are not known. We do know who created the Federal Reserve, however, so we have a clue or four about which European powers and American powers are in control of the Fed.

Each subsidiary of the BIS regulates the fluctuations of the respective economies of the various (184) nation-states who subscribe to the global empire. In so doing, they use financial pressures and leverages to control the forging and application of each respective national policy for each nation-state. In other words, at the finger-tips of the controllers are the powers which can send the Mossad, the CIA, the ISI, MI6, and any other Intelligence organization into any program anywhere on earth. They create the propaganda of the mass media and the indigenous press for each nation-state by holding ownership powers which they obtain through debt - which they themselves have generated in response to human failure. They regulate the content of text books in every industrialized nation-state and others as well. They create the perception of history which best suits their retention of power and control.

To imagine how they do such things one merely need recall what the distinguished Larry Bates publicly said: "The Federal Reserve is more powerful than the Federal Government." [Mr. Larry Bates is: former bank CEO, former Chair of the Tennessee House Banking Committee, author of The New Economic Disorder, Chief Economist FAMC].  Given by Bill Still Productions the opportunity to explain that statement, Mr. Bates noted that the Fed sets the interest rates on American monetary practices. The Fed determines what your house-note shall be, what your car payments shall be, and whether or not you have a job. [my paraphrase from a faulty memory; the actual statements are preserved on the film by Bill Still entitled "Capital Crimes" - and anyone here who has not yet got that film is urged to get it immediately and view it a number of times, preferably with notebook in hand. Allow me to update myself please - my copy of that film is on video cassette, but I see now that there is a newer version on DVD which has changed its name to "The Money Masters: How International Bankers Gained Control Over Amerca". It is an extravantly-done walk through American history and the history of banking and monetary traditions all compacted into one three-hour presentation. Mr. Still took his cameras to various American and European locations to film footages exactly where key events happened, events such as Waterloo, the Constitutinal Convention at Philadelphia, the Fed's headquarters, the Bank of England, and etc. Available here:
http://www.themoneymasters.com/index.html ]
To get a taste of the quality of the information on that film, go here and read comments by Nobel economics  laureate Milton Friedman, Arun Gandhi,the grandson of Mahatma Gandhi, and G. Edward Griffin, author of The Creature From Jekyll Island: A Second Look At The Federal Reserve, among others:

http://www.themoneymasters.com/viewcim.html

Something that Joe Job-holder has never been allowed to know is that the owners of the Federal Reserve System, inc. used the Fed's discount window to cause the crash of Wall Street in the fall of 1929, and continued to contract this nation's money supply through the early years of the ensuing Great Depression of the 1930s while building up the Third Reich under Hitler to prepare this nation for a war into which Franklin Delano Roosevelt involved this country with lies.

Joe-sixpack also does not know that the "boom-bust" "business cycle" is a complete fraud played out on Wall Street with deliberate cunning and craftiness by the owners of the Federal Reserve.

Joe doesn't know that all inflation is created and regulated by the Federal Reserve. When Joe awakens to this sickening reality ( an awakening to with which you and I are tasked with the grass-roots facilitation thereof), Americans have one last chance to stop this tyranny and get rid of Federal taxes and the fraudulent banking system which has enslaved us. The national debt will simply evaporate when we transfer the issuing power back to the U.S. Treasury Department where it belongs constitutionally and the men who would enslave us will be forced into hiding for a long long time. And yes, that includes David Rockefeller and his Bohemian Grove dote, Alan Greenspan. (I should add here that there is, thanks to our good friend and neighbor "planetaryjim", an even better alternative to allowing the Treasury Department to issue our money, but we'll possibly get into that newest idea later. Just did not want to overlook it while on this topic, this aspect of the conspiracy. Thanks, planetaryjim. Btw, planetaryjim has a membership here, and I'm guessing that one can get hold of him either in our membership files or over at Boston T. Party's Free State Wyoming boards, where my lazy and over-worked ass owes him a nice reply, lol.)

Now Junker, allow me to present a common-sense metaphor from actual history. Remember when the Egyptians owned the Hebrews' asses as slaves? What did the Phaeroh have to do when he owned all those Hebrew slaves? Heck, Mon, he had to house them, clothe them, feed them, treat their healh concerns - all before he could work their asses off, right? Well, things have changed in the old slavery game since then. Today's slave-owners have tricked the slaves themselves into worrying about their own housing, clothing, food, and health-care, among other things. In the trade-off the slaves are allowed an unprecedented splurge into the realms of creature comforts and conveniences, enhanced mobility and communications and entertainment, and etc. So the slaves are happy. When accosted about their servitude they invariably say with a defensive conviction - "Yeah, but America is still the best country on earth, and if you don't like it then leave it." Ever hear that before, lol? All the while, the slaves work their lives away, feed the criminal justice system, fatten the coffers of the IRS with late fee and penalty payments, give it up to Fedgov in a zillion ways, and defend their right to suffer that sort of abuse. Meanwhile, the international banksters are sitting atop their pyramid trying to decide how to divide the wealth of the world amongst the deserving, in preparing to eliminate billions of us off their planet plantation.

I know that sounds harsh, but the ugly truth is now known, and I'm going to attempt to logically and coherently provide that proof here on this thread. But I digress.

With the passage of NAFTA we saw the real beginnings of outsourcing of American industry, a move which was designed to assault the middle-class of America. With CAFTA newly minted by Congress, we'll see much more of the same, but with relaxed restrictions when compared with those of NAFTA. But when they get the FTAA (Free Trade Area of the Americas) pushed through Congress, the legal framework for the dismantling of the US Constitution will be in place. Then is when they'll pop the Amero on us and every western hemisphere nation-state, about 34 of them. That is when one or both of two possibilities would come into play. They will either crash the American economy, using the Fed to do it, or they will pitch another little government-sponsored "terrorist event".

Don't think that they won't do this, for they have already planned to do either option. They think ahead, and have been doing so for more than a hundred years. Their choice of tactic shall depend on matters which only they know presently. But they will do it. These are the forces which planned the entire War on Terror and used domestic terrorism events to launch their final grab for global ownership. They have for decades now been putting the legal infrastructure into place to do just that, and to take martial-law control over every aspect of our lives, including curfews, rations of everything from gasoline to sugar to batteries to literally everything. We'll be seeing internal passports (they just passed the REAL ID Act, yes?), bank foreclosures on properties, relocation of entire communities into FEMA and FHA-created "zones", loss of all property rights and water rights, control over all education and health-care systems, control over all transportation systems including truck traffic and boats and airplane traffic, and on and on - they even have an executive order which will allow them to take your goddam car or pickup truck at their discretion. Another EO gives them the full legal right under "national emergency" (such as a market crash, for instance) to confiscate private businesses and farms. It's pretty well planned out just how they'll instantly mobilize total military - police control over every aspect of our lives.  Think the outsourced prison industry is bulging at the seems presently? Wait until they drop that iron net of totalitarian martial law and see how FEMA comes to life. DOJ will outsource millions of prison beds nationwide in the ensuing purge of any and all forms of dissent, for after all, in times of national emergency we're all supposed to support our troops, who will be doing what DARPA named "OOTW" (Operations Other Than War; 1993 DARPA annual report, State Department website) right here on American soil.

Today it just seems to be near - tomorrow it may actually be here.

How they set it up has to do with our tolerance for secret societies on our University campuses and in private-sector think tanks like CFR and PNAC and etc. And don't forget the tax-exempt foundations like Ford, Carnegie, Rockefeller, Morgan et al. They've used the NEA, the DOE, the State Department, the mass media and national press, and they've used our beloved Federal Reserve System, Inc. Through their banking system they have literally taken possession of our country, its government, and our lives. If that is not so, to what else should we attribute all the symptoms of encroaching tyranny and the now-undeniable loss of our liberties?

And if any slave wakes up to his chains and bitches, or withdraws from the system which is slowly murdering himself and his heirs, if he rebels or resists or opposes in any way, well then, the bankers have the full force and power of massive government with which to restrain him. People like me who refuse to use the national ID card, the social security number, the credit system, the licensing system, are - what? Shit out of luck, to put it mildly. If we ever think that we are not under some very rigid controls, all we have to do is try to live one month without working a tax-withholding job, pay for our home without going through a mortgage company which is plugged right into the Federal Reserve, and etc and etc. It doesn't take anyone long outside the system to discover just how barren and futile one's opportunity in this land of opportunity really is unless one is plugged in properly.  And if one chooses to become a whistle-blower on all this shit, one meets the face of justice pronto; just ask Joseph Bannister or Sibel Edmonds or hundreds of other brave souls who are trying their best to sound the alarm for America right now. Our slavery is real, and our attempts to escape it are slim to none, sans what I call the "2nd American Revelation", lol.  (If the Revelation doesn't work, we'll be left only with the 2nd American Revolution, which ain't gonna be very pretty, if it even happens, even gets off the ground, I promise.)

Hence the urgency for getting this out to the public. Yet in the eye of this coming storm, all good Freedom Outlaws must remain calm and mentally in control of themselves. Like the Gadsen Flag's rattlesnake, we are to be coiled, but still waiting for the right moment of vulnerability before striking. Each person shall know when that moment of truth is before him, and I do not want that speculation to creep into this thread, eh? :)

More very soon. Perhaps I should next consider digging up some stuff from Cecil Rhodes for Bill St.Clair's earlier question. I'll see what I pop up with next. :)

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 02, 2006, 04:52:07 am
Elais,

Re: your last post in answer to Bill St Clair as to why these SOB's continue to persue this insane idea of world domination generation after generation, this is possibly the best explication I have ever read, anywhere!! and I have read extensively in this topic for many years and have even obtained a M.Div. in an attempt to help me understand what's going on in these sociopaths heads.

Your explanation is spot on the money, bro. Well done.

As to the thread its self, I have an  idea where your going with it, so I will sit back, have dos equis xx or six  :laugh: and a bit of the sacred weed and enjoy the lecture presentation. :mellow:

Regards,

Americus

Americus, thank you for showing me I'm not alone, and for reminding me to take a toke at times, lol. I just did, and I'm back here to demonstrate the misbehaviors associated with marijuana smoking. :) Before getting into matters with you, allow me to share a joy I take often. A friend here made something for me, as a gift. It is a most-wonderful antler pipe. It is a large section of antler, with an inserted antler pipe-stem, said juncture with main body to pipe antler of which is wrapped in sheet silver, very seamlessly done. On the bottom of the pipe proper where the antler was sawed is an oval sterling silver concho. The natural features and textures of the whole thing take one's heart right back into the bossom of Nature, especially a standout burst of sub-antler formations on a just-started branch near the top of the pipe. Additionally, my friend constructed a table-top stand for sitting the pipe down between tokes. Another friend here gave me a couple of buds, which fit nicely into the generous bowl of the pipe. For me, toking that antler herb-burner is a blessed sacrament which opens the visionary part of my mentality. But let's get to it here.

I think I will open another can of worms while replying to your comforting post above. Now we know that the Bank of International Settlements is real, and we also note that the danged bank doesn't advertise for or solicit your and my checking account business, lol. They ain't giving away any cell phones or rap CDs or floral arrangements for new business, and in fact they would prefer that you and I don't even know they're doing their evil business. But now, thanks to fine researchers and investigators, we know they're there. And we know that they are the ones behind Claire's "Bastards", as featured in, "Don't Shoot The Bastards, Yet".  I'm gonna be dropping some interesting names on this thread, names like Jamie Gorelick and Paul Wolfowitz and General Richard Myers.

But before we get to the heavier of the heavies who work for and support the bankers' pyramid of power, let's look at some of the more lowly-stationed centurians in their employ. Let's wonder about the FBI for a little while. (Toke, Toke!)

But since I took those last two tokes, I got lost and found something else before I could get to my files on the FBI, so let's just toss this little tidbit in here for smiles while I go back and hunt up some FBInfo.

“This gives us a large portion of the existing civilized world in which men's minds may be readjusted to the idea that their existing governments are in the position of trustees for the greater government of the coming age. Throughout these communities it is conceivable that the structural lines of the world community may be materialized and established with only minor struggles, local boycotts, vigorous public controversies, normal legislative obstruction, social pressure, and overt political activities.”
 
- From The Open Conspiracy by H.G. Wells, page 89; Published in 1928 and re-published in 1933

Maybe someone will want to hit on that infamous little quote, eh? Jeez, how did Wells even know to write about such stuff way back then?  :) And isn't it refreshing that he cautioned the world controllers about the unavoidable "minor struggles", the "local boycotts", the "public controversies" (that's were me'n you come in, right?), even the "normal legislative obstruction" - yeah, it took 'em a heap of time and trouble to get that damned Patriot Act jammed through and the DHS and all.... obstruction indeed, lol.

But here's some stuff relating to the FBI.

“The mission of the FBI is to uphold the law through the investigation of violations of federal criminal law; to protect the United States from foreign intelligence and terrorists activities; to provide leadership and law enforcement assistance to federal, state, local, and international agencies; and to perform these responsibilities in a manner that is responsive to the needs of the public and is faithful to the Constitution of the United States.”  FBI mission statement, 1998.

~

“... we may have on our hands a man who will pull down the temple with him, including me.”

 - Former President Richard Nixon, Oval Office, with AG John Mitchell and key White House aides while discussing how J. Edgar Hoover should be asked to resign as head of the FBI., October 1971.

~

Structure and Infrastructure

As we have already observed, there exists a hierarchy in the dispersion of authority within governmental infra-structure. At the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) there is a central office, then regional offices, then localized specific field offices, then operatives, officers, and related miscellaneous affiliates such as paid and unpaid informants, underworld contacts, some law enforcement community contacts, and etc. Atop all that sits the U.S. Department of Justice with its commander, the U.S. Attorney General.

The Attorney General, and the Department of Justice under his leadership, are expected to follow closely the Policy of the White House, in harmony with dictates and requirements in consideration of the Congress and the Supreme Court and the U.S. Constitution.

Issuing downwardly and outwardly from the office of the U.S. Attorney General are the many Policies which denote and define the duties of the FBI. The FBI's own internal hierarchy forwards down its chain of command those policies which are formalized in DOJ and which originated from the Policy as understood through the Common Law, from the White House or/and U.S. Department of State Policy. When a sitting U.S. President appoints an Attorney General, that appointee is expected to reflect through his administration of DOJ's duties and activities the Policy of the appointing President.

The agency's basic structure includes: Criminal Justice Information Services Division; Training Division; Personnel Division; Information Resources Division; National Security Division; Criminal Investigative Division; Laboratory Division; Finance Division. The Director of FBI has for his subordinate and  immediate assistance the Office of The General Counsel; the Office of the Deputy Director; the Office of the Chief of Staff; and the Inspection Division.

To look at the FBI from the bottom up, we must begin with the individual officer attached to a field office. An individual officer is assigned a work-load and a “field” or area or group in which to operate as an agent for his office. He becomes the man on the street, so to say, the man who contacts and observes various “real” people. When he is tasked with the gathering of information he is expected to cultivate new sources and maintain previous sources as needed. He must do a lot of paperwork. He is expected to be on the ball, to show initiative in his work, to perform by furnishing his office results which add to the effectiveness of the office and support the entire hierarchy from the ground up.

Often times, he is expected to operate clandestinely, to infiltrate a group or organization or network of targeted individuals deemed worthy of FBI surveillance. His purpose and goal include an obligation to reflect the Policy of the Administration and the DOJ. His work is reviewed and selections from his work are sent up the chain of command to appropriate levels of authority – sometimes, but not in all cases, as we shall see.

The FBI has an interesting perspective from which to view the world of crime, and that perspective has lately morphed into the world of “terrorism”. As we might expect, the FBI routinely seeks to infiltrate and to spy upon criminal groups, “terrorist” groups, “cells”, and networks. Toward that purpose the FBI uses the talents of its operatives and their “informants”, as well as agents-provocateur, and as well as input from other agencies both domestic and foreign.

And yes, agents-provocateur exist. They're real, and they're really out here among we the people, hiding from us from within us. I'll give you an example of one of their more radical applications of the principle of "provocateur".  Remember the Battle at Seattle, where lots of people showed up to protest the globalists and a large and militarized police response was brought out amid blazing national tv coverage? Remember that smaller group of "protestors" in an adjacent section of town peripheral to the main protests, the ones in black masks with red "A"s on them, the ones who were torching cars and smashing store-front windows and generally wrecking everything in sight all for the cameras which had instinctively or intuitively been attracted to that smaller zone of the protests? Remember those bad guys in black masks? Yes, most Americans today would remember those vivid scenes of street violence. And most Americans still to this day haven't figured out that those professional hoodlums behind black hoods were actually law-enforcement (Justice Department) agents-provocateur. That could well be a better understanding of that media publicity stunt, a "psy-op" by perps in the provocateur industry, some of which, thanks to our well-defined Intelligence community's carte blanche license, are "outsourced". That is just how dirty this government now operates toward fulfillment of any agenda it seeks next. 

Of course, a better example is the Northwoods Document, which shows the Joint Chiefs of Staff (couldn't they have used a different word, one other than our favorite, "Joint"?) In that Pentagon document we see that they literally offered the Secretary of Defense a plan to blow up buildings in Miami and Washington DC, to mortar their own military base at Guantanamo, to blow up an American ship and fake an American flight shoot-down over Cuba, all just to get the American people behind a hot little war against Cuba. That is also real, and it's really true, and was signed by the Joint Chiefs and their head, Admiral L. L. Lemnitzer himself. To do those things as the Pentagon study group suggested in writing on government paper, they would have used something called "agents-provocateur" and special forces military personnel like Green Berets or Marine Corps Force Recon units and Delta Force units and CIA para-military operatives. More on that elsewhere on this thread.

But back to the FBI and some name-dropping. Here are some good FBI people who have come forward to the public the best way each of them could do.  We will compare them to other FBI shitbirds in high places who have persecuted these good FBI agents for trying to tell America the truth about government-sponsored terrorism.

The Good Guys from FBI:
Sibel Edmonds, former FBI translator who found financing for 911 traced right into the White House and who now is under two Justice Department gag orders and, amazingly, is still alive. (Pray for this woman, or whatever you do in place of praying.)

Robert Wright, former FBI field agent who tried his damndest to make Ashcroft's Justice Department aware of the impending attacks; wrote a book the name of which I'll have to recall later, in which he noted that [The FBI] "was merely gathering intelligence so they would know who to arrest after a terrorist attack."  Mr. Wright was punished for going over his commander's head to alert the USG about the impending attacks.

Coleen Rowley, former FBI agent who wrote the famous memo which wondered aloud whether al Qaeda had infiltrated the highest levels of FBI offices.

In memory of: John O'Neil, former chief of counter-terrorism division of FBI who investigated al Qaeda for years before resigning in disgust because of Bush 43's blocking of his access to the Saudi money trail, the Royal family and the Saudi bin Laden family. He went public before he died in the WTC attacks of 911, and his quite-damning statements are in an amazing book entitled:

Forbidden Truth: U.S.-Taliban Secret Oil Diplomacy And The Failed Hunt For Bin Laden
by Jean-Charles Brisard and Guillaume Dasquie; translated by Lisa Rounds; introductions by Joseph Trento and Wayne Madsen; Thunder's Mouth Press / Nation Books; New York; ISBN- 1-56025-414-9; authors' copyright 2002.

Those are some of the good guys at the FBI. There is a much longer list of CIA agents and officers who've gone public but this is focusing on the FBI, so we'll get to other Intel community patriots further along in the thread.

But here are three sons of bitches at the FBI who not only made decisions which facilitated the attacks of 911 but who also each got promotions and praise in the wake of 911. (This is being looked into, closely now.)

Three who need to answer questions before Congress: 1) Michael Maltbie; 2) Marion Bowman; 3) David Frasca.

Those three traitors had all the FBI field-office reports, including the ones from Rowley and Wright, not to mention a host of other information which was crucial to the execution  of the attacks on 911. All three of those high-ranking co-conspirators worked together prior to 911 to stop their own field agents' progress in their ongoing terrorist investigations. They were the three who are behind the FBI's refusal to permit a hard-drive search of Moussoui's computer prior to 911, that hard-drive which would have put the nation on alert before the impending attacks. Had that info come to light prior to 911, it would have caused Dick Cheney's wargame drills of the morning of 911 to be called off, and as we now know, but for those wargame drills under Cheney's command the attacks of 911 could not have succeeded in hitting their targets.  Yet these three treasonous bastards never got one sign of reprimand for "incompetence" or for failing to execute standard procedures in FBI intel gathering operations. Instead, each of them got a pay-hike and a promotion and a slap on the back in encouragement from Ashcroft's Justice Department. Where did they work prior to 911? Among other offices, each of them was in the FBI's "Radical Fundamentalism Unit", the group which received the FBI field agents' several advance warnings about 911 and shut down those investigations and hid the reports from the rest of the USG. They did that, and we now know it.  Remember those three names. They may not have gotten away with their treason as well as they think, lol. :)

But I wax long here, so I'll quit for the moment. But before signing off, let me ask you - does M.Div mean "Masters in Divinity"? That is all I can gather for a meaning. Can you affirm or explain for me?  I'm honored and flattered that you liked my spontaneous take on the globalists' mentality. And I'm glad to know you've been researching into the madness. I'm pretty new to it, but have had about six years to warm up to it now, and I find that the more one looks into the matter, the deeper the rabbit hole goes, y'kno? :)

Salute!
Elias

Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Bill St. Clair on April 02, 2006, 07:56:10 am
Elias,

I'm finding this new thread more interesting than the old Conspiracy Theory thread. There was too much there for me to wade through. For some reason, this one is holding my interest better. I've actuallly read every word.

Thank you, sir.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Junker on April 02, 2006, 09:09:28 am
Thanks, Gen'l.

"... the deeper the rabbit hole goes, y'kno?"

I'd made a list of all the central banks in order to.... But, BIS...amazing. Again, thanks.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Bibamufu on April 02, 2006, 10:07:35 am
Gen'l

Thank you...

This is very interesting thread...I would suggest to the folks that are reading this go to the BIS web site that Elias Alias mentions and check it out.
After I snooped around the BIS site, I am none to certain that this thread should be called "Conspiracy Theory" perhaps just "Conspiracy" would do.

 Elias, I can see that you have researched this subject well and I look forward to reading more.



Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 02, 2006, 06:27:05 pm
Bill St.Clair,
Thank you for your observations regarding the thread. I agree with you, that it is more concise now. And I feel that that is because we've had some time to let the content of the first thread sink in a bit. Also, much more knowledge has surfaced since we began that first thread.  Looking back at that original conspiracy theory thread I see that it was started in October of 2004. I also note that at that time I declared right up front that I was just doing it to see what I might think.  October 2004 was the month in which Michael C. Ruppert published “Crossing The Rubicon”.

I was one of the first people in Montana to get a copy, because I had long before sensed in my being's centerground that Osama bin Laden could not have pulled off that sort of operation without direct assistance from someone or some group of people operating inside the US Federal government. As I began to read Crossing The Rubicon I was motivated to start a thread which would add to Mr. Ruppert's excellent detective work an historical setting which could hold for readers a portrait of “motive”, and, an hypothesis which would hopefully show that a larger conspiracy than just the attacks of 911 was involved. I merely wanted to add to Ruppert's perceptions, not mimic his work. That thread evolved over many many months, and some of it contains some very valuable history, if marred at times by interruptions and other mild injections. A lot of our people here contributed some excellent information, knowledge, and history, to that thread.

The following comes from a gentleman I've never met named Peter Myers. Mr. Myers has somehow got hold of at least one of Cecil Rhodes' wills and has put it online. It is my understanding that before he died Cecil Rhodes wrote seven “last will and testament” documents, and I'm supposing each was rendered to update the previous. This particular will was written in 1877 by Rhodes.

I have not verified Peter Myers' source for this document, which he ascribes to this book:
John Flint, Cecil Rhodes, Little, Brown & Co, Boston 1974; and Hutchinson, London, 1976. I am presuming that John Flint is the author and that “Cecil Rhodes” is the book title.

Mr. Myers has posted the text with this caution for readers: “The document is reproduced here in its original form, without any editing of spelling or punctuation.” 

One last note: Mr. Myers has inserted some parenthetical comments of his own as the will progresses paragraph to paragraph. For our purposes here, I'm deleting his insertions. Readers may click this link and read the following just the way I found it online.
http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/rhodes-will.html

Okay. Let's roll.

Previously I've noted the Clinton-Quigley-Milner-Rhodes-Rothschild chain of connection, but I would like to re-emphasize that some things, including ideas, are transferable from one generation to the next, person to person, and that this massive conspiracy-turned-to-open-plan which I think produced the War on Terror was in the making for a very long time before any tangible sign of its existence surfaced to public knowledge. Dr. Dennis L. Cuddy explains the mechanics of that perhaps better than anyone else.

Cecil Rhodes was a Rothschild agent, in one way of describing him. With Rothschild financing Rhodes consolidated the South African gold mines and created the De Beers international diamond syndicate. The African nation-state named Rhodesia was named for Cecil Rhodes. The sheer volume of human suffering which Rhodes' operations in Africa heaped upon the backs and lives of countless Africans is difficult to imagine, but Rhodes' practices on behalf of the British Empire crushed many a man, woman, and child on its way to establishing what we today refer to as “Apartheid”. Africa struggled mightily to throw off those chains. And the British replied to that resistance with brutality, just as it did in India and elsewhere, including the American Colonies which revolted and formed this nation of ours two and a third centuries ago. The British Empire was quick to field its military, the redcoats, to squelch our notions of sovereignty.

The damned British never leave anyone's country just because the indigenous peoples request they leave. That attitude, that devotion to Empire, to ruling large areas of the known world, has marked British consciousness for a long long time. (We'll get into this later, but I maintain that this attitude of the British is alive and well, if disguised, and is functioning strongly in America today in relation to our perceivable woes.)

I know of few better examples of the mentality of Empire, especially British Empire, than the words of Cecil Rhodes himself. From his own writings we can see something very ugly which thrived behind the popular British society's morals and customs. And more interestingly we can see revealed the expressed will to take America back for the Throne of England, long after the American Revolution. Following now are some excerpts.

~ Quoting Cecil Rhodes: (recall, Rhodes, being one of the biggest men of the 19th Century, was a lousy writer and speller, and cared little, at least in rough drafts, for punctuation. We'll have to pick our way through his runs of words carefully. Also, these are snippets drawn from the larger text, so you may wish to read the whole thing at the above link.)

It often strikes a man to enquire what is the chief goal in life; to one the thought comes that it is a happy marriage, to another great wealth, and as each seizes on his idea, for that he more or less works for the rest of his existence. To myself thinking over the same question the wish came to render myself useful to my country. I then asked myself how could I and after reviewing the various methods I have felt that at the present day we are actually limiting our children and perhaps bringing into the world half the human beings we might owing to the lack of country for them to inhabit  that if we had retained America there would at this moment be millions more of English living. I contend that we are the finest race in the world and that the more of the world we inhabit the better it is for the human race. Just fancy those parts that are at present inhabited by the most despicable specimens of human beings  what an alteration there would be if they were brought under Anglo-Saxon influence, look again at the extra employment a new country added to our dominions gives. I contend that every acre added to our territory means in the future birth to some more of the English race who otherwise would not be brought into existence
 
Added to this the absorption of the greater portion of the world under our rule simply means the end of all wars
In the present day I became a member of the Masonic order I see the wealth and power they possess the influence they hold and I think over their ceremonies and I wonder that a large body of men can devote themselves to what at times appear the most ridiculous and absurd rites without an object and without an end.

The idea gleaming and dancing before one's eyes like a will-of-the wisp at last frames itself into a plan. Why shold we not form a secret society with but one object the furtherance of the British Empire and the bringing of the whole uncivilised world under British rule for the recovery of the United States for the making the Anglo-Saxon race but one Empire. What a dream, but yet it is probable, it is possible. I once heard it argued by a fellow in my own college, I am sorry to own it by an Englishman, that it was a good thing for us that we have lost the United States. There are some subjects on which there can be no arguments, and to an Englishman this is one of them, but even from an American's point of view just picture what they have lost, look at their government, are not the frauds that yearly come before the public view a disgrace to any country and especially their's which is the finest in the world. Would they have occurred had they remained under English rule great as they have become how infinitely greater they would have been with the softening and elevating influences of English rule, think of those countless 000's of Englishmen that during the last 100 years would have crossed the Atlantic and settled and populated the United States. Would they have not made without any prejudice a finer country of it than the low class Irish and German emigrants? All this we have lost and that country loses owing to whom? Owing to two or three ignorant pig-headed statesmen of the last century, at their door lies the blame.

Put your mind into another train of thought. Fancy Australia discovered and colonised under the French flag, what would it mean merely several millions of English unborn that at present exist {Hitler was not more racist} we learn from the past and to form our future. We learn through having lost to cling to [what] we possess. We know the size of the world we know the total extent. Africa is still lying ready for us it is our duty to take it. It is our duty to seize every oportunity of acquiring more territory and we should keep this one idea steadily before our eyes that more territory simply means more of the Anglo-Saxon race more of the best the most human, most honourable race the world possesses .

To forward such a scheme what a splendid help a secret society would be a society not openly acknowledged but who would work in secret for such an object.

I contend that there are at the present moment numbers of the ablest men in the world who would devote their whole lives to it.
What has been the main cause of the success of the Romish Church? The fact that every enthusiast, call it if you like every madman finds employment in it. Let us form the same kind of society a Church for the extension of the British Empire. A society which should have its members in every part of the British Empire working with one object and one idea we should have its members placed at our universities and our schools and should watch the English youth passing through their hands just one

Take another case, let us fancy a man who finds himself his own master with ample means on attaining his majority whether he puts the question directly to himself or not, still like the old story of virtue and vice in the Memorabilia a fight goes on in him as to what he should do. Take it he plunges into dissipation there is nothing too reckless he does not attempt but after a time his life pulls on him, he mentally says this is not good enough, he changes his life, he reforms, he travels, he thinks now I have found the chief good in life, the novelty wears off, and he tires, to change again, he goes into the far interior after the wild game he thinks at last I've found that in life of which I cannot tire, again he is disappointed. He returns he thinks is there nothing I can do in life? Here I am with means, with a good house, with everything that is to envied and yet I am not happy I am tired of life he possesses within him a portion of the {greek script} mega chschegis {end greek script; the second word is surely incorrecttly written by Rhodes} of Aristotle but he knows it not, to such a man the Society should go, should test, and should finally show him the greatness of the scheme and list him as a member.

Take one more case of the younger son with high thoughts, high aspirations, endowed by nature with all the faculties to make a great man, and with the sole wish in his life to serve his Country but he lacks two things the means and the opportunity, ever troubled by a sort of inward deity urging him on to high and noble deeds, he is compelled to pass his time in some occupation which furnishes him with mere existence, he lives unhappily and dies miserably. Such men as these the Society should search out and use for the furtherance of their object.

(In every Colonial legislature the Society should attempt to have its members prepared at all times to vote or speak and advocate the closer union of England and the colonies, to crush all disloyalty and every movement for the severance of our Empire. The Society should inspire and even own portions of the press for the press rules the mind of the people. The Society should always be searching for members who might by their position in the world by their energies or character forward the object but the ballot and test for admittance should be severe)

Once make it common and it fails. Take a man of great wealth who is bereft of his children perhaps having his mind soured by some bitter disappointment who shuts himself up separate from his neighbours and makes up his mind to a miserable existence. To such men as these the society should go gradually disclose the greatness of their scheme and entreat him to throw in his life and property with them for this object. I think that there are thousands now existing who would eagerly grasp at the opportunity. Such are the heads of my scheme.

For fear that death might cut me off before the time for attempting its development I leave all my worldly goods in trust to S. G. Shippard and the Secretary for the Colonies at the time of my death to try to form such a Society with such an object.
 
~End excerpts from Rhodes' will of 1877.

Wow. What a nice British chap, eh?

Cecil Rhodes is the man behind a number of notions which moved President Woodrow Wilson and his chief adviser, Colonel Edward Mandel House. Rhodes is the man behind the creation of the “Round Table Groups”, which spearheaded the conspiracy we now face today. The evolution and coming into being of the Council on Foreign Relations traces straight back to Rhodes and is now known to have been consolidated in the British “Royal Institute for International Affairs” (RIIA) and its American counterpart, the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR).

To Rhodes, any race of humans who were not Anglo-Saxon were inferior and their lands and wealths were to be plucked by the British Empire. Being a mason, he was well aware of Lord Palmerston's precedent and attitude regarding the necessity of importing opium into China – Palmerston, a 33rd degree British Freemason, was Prime Minister of England during the Chinese-British Opium Wars of the mid-1800s, a classic example of the British interpretation of the phrase “free trade”. If any nation refused to cooperate with the British East India Company then the whole of the British military and Navy would be brought into play. For Lord Palmerston, and just a few years later for Cecil Rhodes as well, any damned race of people in any part of the world were to be used and abused in whichever manner benefited the British Empire.
 [Example aside: Who do we suppose ripped Kuwait from the southern end of the nation-state called Iraq? And another aside, I must wonder why G.H.W. Bush failed to remind Americans prior to Desert Storm that in the eyes of Iraqis Kuwait was certainly stolen from Iraq - by the British. More on that later.)

As Rhodes lamented above, the vast lands of America would have enabled England to prosper and populate the Anglo-Saxon bloodlines in grand style, so it was central to his great plan to see to it that America was reclaimed by the British Empire. As a close look at the first four decades of 20th Century American history reveals clearly, the Rhodes plan was by then deeply entrenched here in America. We note that the British loyalist New England Tory “Houses” who funded the Ivy League had long been promoting British interests at Yale, Harvard, Princeton, and Columbia Universities, and that the descendants of that British loyalty were groomed for seats of power on Wall Street and in Washington DC and in the American press.

The fact that these conspirators use secret societies is a fact which I cannot ignore, for it plays directly into one of the most hideous aspects of this conspiracy. That aspect has to do with U.S. Presidents being members in and participants in Bohemian Grove and its rituals. Yes – I'm gonna dip our wick into that pool of slime also, even though it is not pleasant reading material. Since Bohemian Grove is a reality, and since U.S. Presidents of both sides of the political aisle have been for more than a century attending rituals at Bohemian Grove, and giving speeches there, I truly intend to elucidate the matter.

The second reason why I shall be looking at Bohemian Grove has to do with the involvement there by members of that legacy of Cecil Rhodes.

And the third reason we cannot afford to overlook Bohemian Grove has to do with your (Bill St.Clair's) question regarding the mentality of those who have conspired to tear down the US Constitution and assimilate the wealth and bounty of America back into the British Empire.

All of this is what stands behind the CFR, the Federal Income Tax, the Trilateral Commission, the Federal Reserve System, Inc., the Bilderberg Group, NAFTA, CAFTA, the FTAA, the United Nations, the WTO, IMF, World Bank, the World Court, and our newly-discovered seat of highest power, the Bank of International Settlements.

These are the forces which after Hitler's great loss in 1945 changed the United States of America from a Republic in which functioned a democratic process of representative government, into what Gore Vidal correctly calls: The National Security State.

That of course alludes to Truman's signing of the National Security Act of 1947, written by his long-time aide Clark Clifford (the state-crafting criminal who wrote the bill and later brought BCCI into America under fraud) and two of Hitler's biggest Wall Street lawyers, Allen Dulles and John Foster Dulles. These are the forces which created the CIA and let that monster loose upon the world. These are the same forces which gave us the Federal Income Tax and the Federal Reserve System, Inc. And these are the forces who worked largely in secrecy for decades to destroy America as we the people have always known and loved it.

Once we see and understand that a deliberate and well-planned method for the execution of Cecil Rhodes' will was established and put into operation, using the giants of weath behind the Bank of England, and once we then see also that these people have made use of occult death-worship rituals from ancient Babylon (which they celebrate in secrecy at Bohemian Grove each July), and once we realize that these people and their minions who hold offices at every level of the USG have at their fingertips the final control over the Genome Project, the nuclear weapons programs of the Pentagon, the keys to economic cycles and monetary issuance, the control (through the NEA) of Feducation nation-wide, and the control (through the CFR) of the mass media and the American Press, we may feel that we've been duped by nothing more than a group of very wealthy people who believe in death, practice death-cult rituals at their secret gatherings, and have no reason which you or I might recognize to hesitate in murdering a few thousand people in some terrorist events which would expedite their consolidation of control over the USG and its domestic and foreign policy.

All that remains for us is to connect a bunch of dots which crop up across the span of history.

Far-out stuff, eh?
More laters,
Salute!
Elias






Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Spinner on April 03, 2006, 03:11:29 am
1) Elias, what do you suggest people *do* about this alledged conspiracy?

2) You really ought to make a web page w/ timeline and links to any evidence you have.  A forum isn't a good place to lay something like this out in an understandable fashion.  It's a good place to answer people's questions, however if you had a web page and posted the link here.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 03, 2006, 08:47:12 am
1) Elias, what do you suggest people *do* about this alledged conspiracy?

Actually, I do not feel it is my obligation or responsibility to suggest to anyone what he might *do* as a result of gaining this knowledge and insight. What I am doing about it is sharing the knowledge with others who may be interested.

Quote
2) You really ought to make a web page w/ timeline and links to any evidence you have.  A forum isn't a good place to lay something like this out in an understandable fashion.  It's a good place to answer people's questions, however if you had a web page and posted the link here.

Paul Thompson already has a marvelous timeline.
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/project.jsp?project=911_project

When you say "something like this", what do you mean?

When you say "a forum isn't a good place to lay something like this out..." are you saying that after reading the preceding posts? And if you've read the preceding posts in the thread, what causes you to feel that other readers would not read them here?

Thanks for your suggestions. There is another option, which I'm working on presently. It's called a "book". :)

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 03, 2006, 02:15:28 pm
Gen'l

Thank you...

This is very interesting thread...I would suggest to the folks that are reading this go to the BIS web site that Elias Alias mentions and check it out.
After I snooped around the BIS site, I am none to certain that this thread should be called "Conspiracy Theory" perhaps just "Conspiracy" would do.

 Elias, I can see that you have researched this subject well and I look forward to reading more.


(EA note: I'm gonna have to split this post into two posts - too long.)

Bibamufu,
I'm glad you find this subject interesting. I agree with you that the conspiracy is a fact, and I hope this thread shall resolve anyone's doubts about that. The BIS is very real, and is not some hypothetical spook lurking in the minds of clueless idiots who may think that somehow a criminal or group of criminals could have covertly got themselves seated into offices of the USG and then used those offices to launch "terror events" on U.S. soil.  I would like to see more comments on the secrecy aspects of the BIS here. It amazes me that the most powerful bank on earth requires total secrecy, total freedom from any and all government inspection or auditing, total status above any and every nation's laws. That is just absolutely astonishing - yet there it is -  in their charter.

But now let's look into something on a related tangent, okay? Since we know that banking, especially "international" banking, plays a huge role in facilitating the conspiracy, let us recall that the conspiracy also deliberately intended to make use of "Education". Knowing that their plot would take many generations for its fulfillment, its completion, the conspirators figured on building their core strengths by education of the American (and other nations') public(s). I would now like to paste in here some quite serious stuff which shall reveal in detail just how they've gone about this. I hope you like this sample excerpt from my unfinished book. (In the chapter from which I am pasting the following, I am using direct quotations from Dr. Dennis L. Cuddy's amazing "timeline" on the history of the NEA.) All credits are in the book.

~

In the case of the Carnegie Foundation for International Peace, history has shown that the CFIP has always been more interested in conflict than in peace. The Carnegie Foundation for International Peace was instrumental in creating the world's first socialist/communist state. Carnegie's financial backing of Leon Trotsky and the Bolshevik Revolution, (coupled also with even larger financing from the Schiff family in England and others of ilk), is an undeniable fact of history. Yet, in supreme irony, that financial backing of communism was executed and dispersed by a private-sector group which billed itself as a tax-exempt foundation working for “international peace”. This sort of early-twentieth-century deception, deliberately constructed and injected into the nation's perception, has never been fully exposed, primarily because the same tax-exempt foundations which did it also took control over public education, the media, our money supply, and the press. This truth is not taught, generally, in the government schools. Yet it is on the public record via published articles and books, corporate records, government records, and archives of all sorts.

What the Carnegie Foundation for International Peace helped create -  that is, specifically, the USSR - served later to fuel more than forty years of world-wide Cold War and an insane nuclear arms race which we busy little average Americans paid for via Federal taxation. Many thousands of our service men and women paid with their lives in Korea and Vietnam and elsewhere. For financiers such as the House of Carnegie who banked on both sides of each and every war of the 20th Century, the Cold War of the latter half of the century was a gold mine. Yet the Cold War was perpetrated upon the American tax payer in the name of “international peace”, and the origins of Trotsky's financing have been lost in the shuffle of ensuing public school text book content and CFR-controlled media/press issue. This sort of information should be headlines in the press and underlined in text books. Why is it not? It's sources are certainly more reliable and verifiable than the spun and perverted versions of American history which we see in today's press and media and in school-book publishing.

That obfuscation was accomplished in part by placing certain individuals in key positions in the NEA, the National Education Association. This may hint of the motives of Carnegie and Murrow and Dewey, of the Round Table groups and their ilk, of the progeny of the international financiers who loan large blocs of money to governments for tax-funded debt.
Like the Carnegie Foundation for International Peace, which funds war, and like the Rhodes Scholarship Fund, which converts scholarship into socialism, and like the Federal Reserve System, Inc., which feeds on debt which it's Policy creates in our Federal government, the National Education Association has a unique view of “education”.

Why would the Carnegie group and the Rockefeller group and other tax-exempt groups pool their resources and financial powers in seeking, among other objectives, to influence and restructure American public education? Why would they create tax-exempt foundations which were intended to shape the direction of American teaching in general? Why would Karl Marx or H.G. Wells or Colonel Edward Mandel House or Frances Bellamy or John Dewey care what the public perceived and understood, en masse?  Why do such men hold so much concern about what someone, anyone, everyone, thinks?
 
Is it possible that an alien agenda lies behind the deterioration of American public schooling? Could the devolution of public education be hitched in tandem with the economic Policy and the media Policy and the governmental Policy as set forth by a handful of very powerful internationalists, the titans of global finance? Could a small handful of very powerful elites on Wall Street and in Washington, D.C. have consciously intended to destroy the American public school system to suit their hidden agenda? Could that assault work in tandem with the outsourcing of American industry to hasten the assimilation of the American middle-class into an international Federalism? Wouldn't the “dumbing down of America” be one necessary step toward assimilating the USA into the one-world government? Wouldn't it benefit the globalists' agenda to disintegrate the American family by having government take over the educating of our children?

I'm aware that this sounds ridiculous, so let's look at some of their own statements and see...

~
1933. John Dewey, "father of progressive education" and honorary president of the National Education Association (NEA), co-authored the Humanist Manifesto I. Its introduction warned against identifying "religion" with existing doctrines which "are powerless to solve the problems of human living in the Twentieth Century... Any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for day, must be shaped for the needs of this age."

Who, one might wonder, is to do that shaping which Dewey noted would be necessary?

1934.  National Education Association (NEA) Former Executive Secretary Willard Givens warned that "...all of us, including the 'owners', must be subjected to a large degree of social control... An equitable distribution of income will be sought... the major function of the school is the social orientation of the individual. It must seek to give him understanding of the transition to a new social order."

(Who was Givens meaning when he used the word: "owners"?

1934.  The Carnegie Corporation funded the American Historical Association's  Report of the Commission on the Social Studies.  Like most of today's social studies curricula, the report called for a shift from free enterprise to collectivism:
"...the age of individualism and laissez faire in economy and government is closing and... a new age of collectivism is emerging... It may involve the limiting or supplanting of private property by public property or it may entail the preservation of private property, extended and distributed among the masses... Almost certainly it will involve a larger measure of compulsory as well as voluntary cooperation of citizens in the context of the complex national economy, a corresponding enlargement of the functions of government, and an increasing state intervention in fundamental branches of economy previously left to individual discretion and initiative...."

1942. The editor of the NEA Journal, J. Elmer Morgan, wrote an editorial titled "The United Peoples of the World." In it, he explained a world government's need for an educational branch, a world system of money and credit, a world police force, "a world bill of rights and duties."

1946.  In his NEA editorial, "The Teacher and World Government," J. Elmer Morgan wrote, "In the struggle to establish an adequate world government, the teacher... can do much to prepare the hearts and minds of children.... At the very top of all the agencies which will assure the coming of world government must stand the school, the teacher, and the organized profession."

I find it difficult to name such gibberish patriotic. In fact, that statement immediately above strikes me as bordering on outright treason against the people of the United States of America. Yet it was published by the NEA Does the average American today know that this sort of agenda lies behind the NEA? Does the average teacher know this?  It gets worse.

Also in 1946, Canadian psychiatrist and World War II General Brock Chisholm, M.D., head of the World Health Organization, declared the following:

We have swallowed all manner of poisonous certainties fed us by our parents, our Sunday and day school teachers... The results are frustration, inferiority, neurosis and inability to... make the world fit to live in.
 
"The re-interpretation and eventually eradication of the concept of right and wrong which has been the basis of child training... these are the belated objectives of practically all effective psychotherapy.... 
       
"Psychology and sociology...  the sciences of living, should be... taught to all children in primary and secondary schools, while the study of such things as trigonometry, Latin, religions and others of specialist concern should be left to universities. Only so... can we help our children carry their responsibilities as world citizens....
       
"...it has long been generally accepted that parents have perfect right to impose any points of view, any lies or fears, superstitions, prejudices, hates, or faith on their defenseless children. It is, however, only recently that it has become a matter of certain knowledge that these things cause neuroses....
       
"Surely the training of children in homes and schools should be of at least as great public concern as are their vaccination... for their own protection and that of other people.... [Individuals with] guilts, fears, inferiorities, are certain to project their hates on to others.... Any such reaction now becomes a dangerous threat to the whole world. For the very survival of the human race, world understanding, tolerance and forbearance have become absolutely essential. We must be prepared to sacrifice much.... Whatever the cost, we must learn to live in friendliness and peace... . putting aside the mistaken old ways of our elders if that is possible. If it cannot be done gently, it may have to be done roughly or even violently...."

We may wish to pause a moment and let that basket of flowery treason sink in. When Chisholm says “...practically all effective psychotherapy....”, who is to decide and describe and define what “effective psychotherapy” constitutes? Could it be someone like Chisholm himself, who would view complacent unquestioning subserviency to a one-world government's design for “the perfect human life” and a “healthy mentality” as “effective psychotherapy”? Isn't Chisholm the guy who just said “ poisonous certainties fed us by our parents, our Sunday and day school teachers...”?

(continued)
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 03, 2006, 02:17:30 pm
(continued from above post)

~

But we do not have to wonder who Chisholm thinks shall be the deciding authority on the question, for he informs us indirectly in the same cluster of passages. In his view, it would be the psychologist and the sociologist who would set the standard for the world-citizen's proper mentality, and they would have the full force and backing of government. Yet it gets worse.


1948. The NEA, funded in part by the Carnegie Corporation, produced a set of international guidelines called Education for International Understanding in American Schools - Suggestions and Recommendations.  It included this statement:
 
"The idea has become established that the preservation of international peace and order may require that force be used to compel a nation to conduct its affairs within the framework of an established world system. The most modern expression of this doctrine of collective security is in the United Nations Charter... Many persons believe that enduring peace cannot be achieved so long as the nation-state system continues as at present constituted. It is a system of international anarchy.

After recovering from a brief fit of reeling over reading such statements, I would like to note here that in my view anarchy means “self government” as portrayed by two of America's greatest 19th Century anarchists, Henry David Thoreau and Lysander Spooner. In other words, anarchy is that condition which exists whenever an individual is willing to accept full responsibility for himself in all things. Though the subject of anarchy deserves an entire letter's devotion, suffice here to say that anarchy is the traditional American refusal to bow to outside authority, a refusal based on the quintessence of individuality.

“International anarchy”, as alluded above, is that condition in which we see each nation as an individual nation possessing its own characteristics which differ from those of other nations. For example, a Spaniard sees himself, and is seen by others, differently than does a Frenchman or a German or an American. A Tibetan and an Englishman and a Russian are readily distinguished by their individualized national characteristics one from another. Customs, mores, unique cultural features, behavioral variances, individualized legal structures, philosophical perspectives, and many other patterns of individualized sovereignty mark each nation-state with its own national personality. Same goes for individual people.

Those brilliant mental giants who run the NEA would prefer to see all that diversity eradicated and a single hive-mind perception of life installed in its place, using “force” if they deem force necessary. I did not say that – they said it. All the while, they speak loudly and often of  diversity and tolerance – neither of which, in reality, fit into their grand scheme of a one-world government. Is this not an observable and definable massive “psy-op” employed by tax-exempt foundations with the power to lobby and lever the U.S. Federal government?

Well, such fools are welcome to think as they wish – up to the point at which they become willing to use “force” to make everyone accept their pseudo morality and still-born ideology. And because herein we see that the NEA presumes to use force, even publishes its advocacy of the use of force, I must ask how that “force” is to be rendered. And so must every Montanan and every American.

Exactly which sort of “force” does the NEA think lies at its disposal? Could it be that the NEA expects to use the force of government? Does the NEA expect to use the force of Law to make an individual conform to the collective? And to empower that sort of force over the individual American, would not the power and authority of government have to be expanded beyond those limits placed upon government in the U.S. Constitution? And do not the USA PATRIOT ACT of 2001, and the Homeland Security Act of 2002, the Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003, and the Model States Health Emergency Powers Act, and so many other laws, expand governmental power over the lives of individual American citizens? And isn't that exactly what  the NEA said in 1948 in Dr. Cuddy's rendered-quoted passage above?

Is a subtle motive untoward encroachment-by-government into the lives of private citizens now logically seen simply by reading the NEA's own publications? And is the NEA in any sort of association, via its many “leaders” and their politically-correct associations, with the United Nations and the Federal government of the United States of America? Is individuality, both personal and national, under siege?

Is the huge, bloated infrastructure of mechanized government now at the disposal of such people? Are our public school children being conditioned and programmed for the one-world government's agenda? Evidence affirms. And the evidence frightens further once we recall that the same tax-exempt foundations which dominate the NEA also created and continue to control the Federal Reserve System, Inc. With pre-determined activity at the Fed's discount window by these elitists, the American people can find themselves in a recession or depression or in a gracious prosperity; their interest rates are there set by the Fed, and that affects the marketplace directly, giving the Fed power to determine what our house payments shall be, what our car payments shall be, and what the unemployment rate shall be, just as Larry Bates and others have revealed. 

This same clique was behind the League of Nations after WWI and they were behind the United Nations after WWII. In addition to their globalist notions regarding monetary issuance and wars, they have worked through the NEA and the American Medical Association (AMA) to match a public consciousness to a mechanized medical industry which syphons the public wealth to and fro and vents the insurance industry. They glue it all together by owning the mass media and the American press.

But it gets worse.

1962. An editorial in the Chicago Sun-Times gave an insightful glimpse into the NEA's plan and power: "For control--real control over the Nation's children--is being shifted rapidly to the NEA. That organization has about completed the job of cartelizing public school education under its own cartel... It is extending that control over colleges and universities. In the NEA scheme of things it will be a simple matter to extend control over whatever Washington agency handles the funds."

1965.  The U.S. Congress passed the federal Elementary and Secondary Education Act (ESEA). Months later, it decided to fund Citizens for the 21st Century, a book by UCLA Professor John Goodlad, who wrote,
 
Although the conduct of education and especially the clientele have changed.... the school is perceived very much as it was then: a partitioned box where boys and girls come to sit still for six hours a day and to be told about some fragmentary pieces of "knowledge" thought to reflect the rudiments of their "culture." This image must be shattered, violently if necessary -- and forever. The future of mankind may rest upon it.

1970. The Association for Supervision and Curriculum Development (ASCD), the curriculum arm of the NEA, published To Nurture Humaneness: Commitment for the '70's.  The visionary statements of its authors are coming true in  our times: 
 
The old order is passing.... The controls of the past were sacred.... Social controls cannot be left to blind chance and unplanned change -- usually attributed to God. Man must be the builder of new forms of social organizations.... Here education must play a stellar role.  (Dan W. Dodson, Professor of Educational Sociology at N. Y. University)
 
The school will need to be supplemented by neighborhood family centers which provide infant care and developmental activity.... Education may well begin at birth in cooperative family centers. (Francis Chase, Professor Emeritus of the University of Chicago)
 
Many daily decisions and value judgments now made by the individual will soon be made for him... How to plan for one's children's education will be partially taken out of his hands. (John Loughary, Professor of Education at the University of Oregon.
 
Vital questions of values, beliefs, feelings, emotions and human interrelationships in all forms must be integral parts of the curriculum. (Arthur Combs, Professor of Education at the University of Florida)


1973.  Global Education Associates is founded. A publicity brochure for its 1989 conference at Wichita State University describes it as "an international network of men and women in over 70 countries who collaborate in research and educational programs aimed at advancing world peace and security, cooperative economic development, human rights and ecological sustainability." That may sound good, but the book, Toward a Human World Order, written by GEA founders Gerald and Patricia Mische a few years later, puts their noble intentions into the new-paradigm context of a world government and global socialism.  "It examines the strait-jacket of the present nation-state system and... explores world order alternatives...."

1974. Alvin Toffler (Newt Gingrich's mentor), Willard Wirtz and other futurists wrote a report issued by the Institute for Chief State School Officers titled "Man, Education, and Society in the Year 2000." Other CSSO participants were George [H.W.] Bush, James Baker, and Edmund de Rothschild. Funded by HEW's Office of Education, the report concluded that "the 50 states should organize a commission to establish the values that are significant in approaching problems (e.g., population) that must be faced in the future."  The summary explained that
 
The home, the church and the school cannot be effective maintainers [of society] since the future cannot be predicted... The traditional cluster of knowledge, skills, values and concepts will not help our young face the future in their private life, the international situation.... Perhaps there is a need for the clarification of new values needed to solve future problems.


1976. "America's Next 25 Years: Some implications for Education" is published by Harold Shane, Project Director for the NEA Bicentennial Committee.  Notice that Shane used the same buzzwords that characterize Outcome-based Education today:
 
Rather than adding my voice to those who urge us to go "back to the basics," I would argue that we need to move ahead to new basics... Certainly, cross-cultural understanding and empathy have become fundamental skills of human relations and intercultural rapport... the arts of compromise and reconciliation, of consensus building, and of planning for interdependence, a command of these talents becomes "basics"... As young people mature, we must help them develop... a service ethic which is geared toward the real world... the global servant concept in which we will educate our young for planetary service and eventually for some form of world citizenship.

~End excerpt from book.

So, Bibamufu, we see that the NEA, an arm of the globalists, is much more candid in its statements of purpose than are those secretive international banksters - but - we also see that they all work hand-in-hand to fulfill the Rhodes comment:

"Let us form the same kind of society a Church for the extension of the British Empire. A society which should have its members in every part of the British Empire working with one object and one idea we should have its members placed at our universities and our schools and should watch the English youth passing through their hands just one..." ~ Cecil Rhodes, 1877.

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 04, 2006, 06:37:32 am
Not surprisingly, I find that I must split this post into two. Solly 'bout that.
~

Good little girls and boys who do not read cannot be expected to know the things known by bad little girls and boys who do read.

At this point in the history and destiny of America, all little girls and boys, both good and bad, need to start reading. Like - now.

I have mentioned that the Carnegie Foundation For International Peace supported the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia and helped thereby create the first communist state in the history of the world. That may seem hard enough to swallow, and may not even seem relevant to our conspiracy - but I assure you that it is. If reading the foregoing Carnegie-funded insanity of the NEA hasn't impressed us with the seriousness of powers gone mad, all we need is a little more proof placed here before us which shall show that Wall Street and in general, a large involvement by the American business community was indeed involved in not only the Bolshevik Revolution but also jumped aboard in the new Communist regime(s) to get their fair share of the business profits to be made.

I am going to paste in some stuff now from Antony C. Sutton, and will link the source at the end of this addition to our thread. Some of this may appear here out of order when compared to Sutton's arrangement of the info. My apologies ot Mr. Sutton if that happens. Also, this may require more than one text box to hold, and I'm guessing presently that it may require about four text boxes (four postings) to hold what we need to see. I am doing this because we have to for once and for all come to fully realize that international finance is loyal to no one country, no one system of morality, and no one vision of mankind as possessing any divine right to sovereignty as mankind arrives at the bone gates of birth. Thank you each and all for patiently wading through this most fascinating history. I assure you that it connects up with the who and how and why of the conspiracy to attack America on 911 from seats of power within our own damned government.

I have placed some names in the following in bold type for our purposes here.

~


DOCUMENT NO. 7

DESCRIPTION

Letter from National City Bank of New York to the U.S. Treasury, April 15, 1919, with regard to Ludwig Martens and his associate Dr. Julius Hammer (316-118).


DOCUMENT

The National City Bank of New York
New York, April 15, 1919

Honorable Joel Rathbone,
Assistant Secretary of the Treasury
Washington, D.C.

Dear Mr. Rathbone:

I beg to hand you herewith photographs of two documents which we have received this morning by registered mail from a Mr. L. Martens who claims to be the representative in the United States of the Russian Socialist Federal Soviet Republic, and witnessed by a Dr. Julius Hammer for the Acting Director of the Financial Department.

You will see from these documents that there is a demand being made upon us for any and all funds on deposit with us in the name of Mr. Boris Bakhmeteff, alleged Russian Ambassador in the United States, or in the name of any individual, committee, or mission purporting to act in behalf of the Russian Government in subordination to Mr. Bakhmeteff or directly.

We should be very glad to receive from you whatever advice or instructions you may care to give us in this matter.

Yours respectfully,
[sgd.] J. H. Carter,
Vice President.

JHC:M

Enclosure


COMMENTS

The significance of this letter is related to the long-time association (1917-1974) of the Hammer family with the Soviets.


DOCUMENT NO. 8

DESCRIPTION

Letter dated August 3, 1920, from Soviet courier "Bill" Bobroff to Kenneth Durant, former aide to Colonel House. Taken from Bobroff by U.S. Department of Justice.


DOCUMENT

Department of Justice
Bureau of Investigation,
15 Park Row, New York City, N. Y.,
August 10, 1920

Director Bureau of Investigation
United States Department of Justice, Washington, D.C.

Dear Sir: Confirming telephone conversation with Mr. Ruch today, I am transmitting herewith original documents taken from the effects of B. L. Bobroll, steamship Frederick VIII.

The letter addressed Mr. Kenneth Durant, signed by Bill, dated August 3, 1920, together with the translation from "Pravda," July 1, 1920, signed by Trotzki, and copies of cablegrams were found inside the blue envelope addressed Mr. Kenneth Durant, 228 South Nineteenth Street, Philadelphia, Pa. This blue envelope was in turn sealed inside the white envelope attached.

Most of the effects of Mr. Bobroff consisted of machinery catalogues, specifications, correspondence regarding the shipment of various equipment, etc., to Russian ports. Mr. Bobroff was closely questioned by Agent Davis and the customs authorities, and a detailed report of same will be sent to Washington.

Very truly yours,
G. F. Lamb,
Division Superintendent


LETTER TO KENNETH DURANT

Dear Kenneth: Thanks for your most welcome letter. I have felt very much cut off and hemmed in, a feeling which has been sharply emphasized by recent experiences. I have felt distressed at inability to force a different attitude toward the bureau and to somehow get funds to you. To cable $5,000 to you, as was done last week, is but a sorry joke. I hope the proposal to sell gold in America, about which we have been cabling recently, will soon be found practicable. Yesterday we cabled asking if you could sell 5,000,000 rubles at a minimum of 45 cents, present market rate being 51.44 cents. That would net at least $2,225,000. L's present need is $2,000,000 to pay Niels Juul & Co., in Christiania, for the first part of the coal shipment from America to Vardoe, Murmansk, and Archangel. The first ship is nearing Vardoe and the second left New York about July 28. Altogether, Niels Juul & Co., or rather the Norges' Bank, of Christiania, on their and our account, hold $11,000,000 gold rubles of ours, which they themselves brought from Reval to Christiania, as security for our coal order and the necessary tonnage, but the offers for purchase of this gold that they have so far been able to get are very poor, the best being $575 per kilo, whereas the rate offered by the American Mint or Treasury Department is now $644.42, and considering the large sum involved it would be a shame to let it go at too heavy a loss. I hope that ere you get this you will have been able to effect the sale, at the same time thus getting a quarter of a million dollars or more for the bureau. If we can't in some way pay the $2,000,000 in Christiania, that was due four days ago, within a very short time, Niels Juul & Co. will have the right to sell our gold that they now hold at the best price then obtainable, which, as stated above, is quite low.

We don't know yet how the Canadian negotiations are going on. We understand Nuorteva turned over the strings to Shoen when N.'s arrest seemed imminent. We don't at this writing know where Nuorteva is. Our guess is that after his enforced return to England from Esbjerg, Denmark, Sir Basil Thomson had him shipped aboard a steamer for Reval, but we have not yet heard from Reval that he has arrived there, and we certainly would hear from Goukovski or from N. himself. Humphries saw Nuorteva at Esbjerg, and is himself in difficulties with the Danish police because of it. All his connections are being probed for; his passport has been taken away: he has been up twice for examination, and it looks as if he will be lucky if he escapes deportation. It was two weeks ago that Nuorteva arrived at Esbjerg, 300 miles from here, but having no Danish visé, the Danish authorities refused to permit him to land, and he was transferred to a steamer due to sail at 8 o'clock the following morning. By depositing 200 kroner he was allowed shore leave for a couple of hours. Wanting to get Copenhagen on long-distance wire and having practically no more money, he once more pawned that gold watch of his for 25 kroner, therewith getting in touch with Humphries, who within half an hour jumped aboard the night train, slept on the floor, and arrived at Esbjerg at 7:30. Humphries found Nuorteva, got permission from the captain to go aboard, had 20 minutes with N., then had to go ashore and the boat sailed. Humphries was then invited to the police office by two plain-clothes men, who had been observing the proceedings. He was closely questioned, address taken, then released, and that night took train back to Copenhagen. He sent telegrams to Ewer, of Daily Herald, Shoen, and to Kliskho, at 128 New Bond Street, urging them to be sure and meet Nuorteva's boat, so that N. couldn't again be spirited away, but we don't know yet just what happened. The British Government vigorously denied that they had any intention of sending him to Finland. Moscow has threatened reprisals if anything happens to him. Meantime, the investigation of H. has begun. He was called upon at his hotel by the police, requested to go to headquarters (but not arrested), and we understand that his case is now before the minister of justice. Whatever may be the final outcome, Humphries comments upon the reasonable courtesy shown him, contrasting it with the ferocity of the Red raids in America.

He found that at detective headquarters they knew of some of his outgoing letters and telegrams.

I was interested in your favorable comment upon the Krassin interview of Tobenken's (you do not mention the Litvinoff one), because I had to fight like a demon with L. to get the opportunities for Tobenken. Through T. arrived with a letter from Nuorteva, as also did Arthur Ruhl, L. brusquely turned down in less than one minute the application T. was making to go into Russia, would hardly take time to hear him, saying it was impossible to allow two correspondents from the same paper to enter Russia. He gave a visé to Ruhl, largely because of a promise made last summer to Ruhl by L. Ruhl then went off to Reval, there to await the permission that L. had cabled asking Moscow to give. Tobenken, a nervous, almost a broken man because of his turn down, stayed here. I realized the mistake that had been made by the snap judgment, and started in on the job of getting it changed. Cutting a long story short, I got him to Reval with a letter to Goukovsky from L. In the meantime Moscow refused Ruhl, notwithstanding L's visé. L. was maddened at affront to his visé, and insisted that it be honored. It was, and Ruhl prepared to leave. Suddenly word came from Moscow to Ruhl revoking the permission and to Litvinoff, saying that information had reached Moscow that Ruhl was in service of State Department. At time of writing, both Tobenken and Ruhl are in Reval, stuck.

I told L. this morning of the boat leaving tomorrow and of the courier B. available, asked him if he had anything to write to Martens, offered to take it in shorthand for him, but no, he said he had nothing to write about that I might perhaps send duplicates of our recent cables to Martens.

Kameneff passed by here on a British destroyer en route to London, and didn't stop off here at all, and Krassin went direct from Stockholm. Of the negotiations, allied and Polish, and of the general situation you know about as much as we do here. L's negotiations with the Italians have finally resulted in establishing of mutual representation. Our representative, Vorovsky, has already gone to Italy and their representative, M. Gravina, is en route to Russia. We have just sent two ship loads of Russian wheat to Italy from Odessa.

Give my regards to the people of your circle that I know. With all good wishes to you.

Sincerely yours,
Bill

The batch of letters you sent  —  5 Cranbourne Road, Charlton cum Hardy, Manchester, has not yet arrived.

L's recommendation to Moscow, since M. asked to move to Canada, is that M. should be appointed there, and that N., after having some weeks in Moscow acquainting himself first hand, should be appointed representative to America.

L. is sharply critical of the bureau for giving too easily visés and recommendations. He was obviously surprised and incensed when B. reached here with contracts secured in Moscow upon strength of letters given to him by M. The later message from M. evidently didn't reach Moscow. What L. plans to do about it I don't know. I would suggest that M. cable in cipher his recommendation to L. in this matter. L. would have nothing to do with B. here. Awkward situation may be created.

L. instanced also the Rabinoff recommendation.

Two envelopes, Mr. Kenneth Durant, 228 South Nineteenth Street, Philadelphia, Pa., U.S.A.

SOURCE: U.S. State Department Decimal File, 316-119-458/64.

NOTE: IDENTIFICATION OF INDIVIDUALS
William (Bill) L. BOBROFF    Soviet courier and agent. Operated Bobroff Foreign Trading and Engineering Company of Milwaukee. Invented the voting system used in the Wisconsin Legilature.
Kenneth DURANT    Aide to Colonel House; see text.
SHOEN    Employed by International Oxygen Co., owned by Heller, a prominent financier and Communist.
EWER    Soviet agent, reporter for London Daily Herald.
KLISHKO    Soviet agent in Scandinavia
NUORTEVA    Also known as Alexander Nyberg, first Soviet representative in United States; see text.
Sir Basil THOMPSON    Chief of British Intelligence
"L"    LITVINOFF.
"H"    Wilfred Humphries, associated with Martens and Litvinoff, member of Red Cross in Russia.
KRASSIN     Bolshevik commissar of trade and labor, former head of Siemens-Schukert in Russia.


COMMENTS

This letter suggests close ties between Bobroff and Durant.


DOCUMENT NO. 9

DESCRIPTION

Memorandum referring to a request from Davison (Morgan partner) to Thomas Thacher (Wall Street attorney associated with the Morgans) and passed to Dwight Morrow (Morgan partner), April 13, 1918.


DOCUMENT

The Berkeley Hotel, London
April 13th, 1918.

Hon. Walter H. Page,
American Ambassador to England,
London.

Dear Sir:

Several days ago I received a request from Mr. H. P. Davison, Chairman of the War Council of the American Red Cross, to confer with Lord Northcliffe regarding the situation in Russia, and then to proceed to Paris for other conferences. Owing to Lord Northcliffe's illness I have not been able to confer with him, but am leaving with Mr. Dwight W. Morrow, who is now staying at the Berkeley Hotel, a memorandum of the situation which Mr. Morrow will submit to Lord Northcliffe on the latter's return to London.

For your information and the information of the Department I enclose to you, herewith, a copy of the memorandum.

Respectfully yours,
[sgd.] Thomas D. Thacher.

[Elias note: H. P. Davison was present at Jekyll Island, Georgia, at the secret creation of the Federal Reserve. Busy guy.That puts him in the loop with Frank M. Warburg of Kuhn-Loeb, and thereby the House of Schiff, whom Warburg represented at Jekyll Island's conspiracy.]

COMMENT

Lord Northcliffe had just been appointed director of propaganda. This is interesting in the light of William B. Thompson's subsidizing of Bolshevik propaganda and his connection with the Morgan-Rockefeller interests.


Continued next post -
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 04, 2006, 06:38:50 am
Continuing from previous post -

DOCUMENT NO. 10

DESCRIPTION

This document is a memorandum from D.C. Poole, Division of Russian Affairs in the Department of State, to the secretary of state concerning a conversation with Mr. M. Oudin of General Electric.


DOCUMENT

May 29, 1922

Mr. Secretary:

Mr. Oudin, of the General Electric Company, informed me this morning that his company feels that the time is possibly approaching to begin conversations with Krassin relative to a resumption of business in Russia. I told him that it is the view of the Department that the course to be pursued in this matter by American firms is a question of business judgment and that the Department would certainly interpose no obstacles to an American firm resuming operations in Russia on any basis which the firm considered practicable.

He said that negotiations are now in progress between the General Electric Company and the Allgemeine Elektrizitats Gesellschaft for a resumption of the working agreement which they had before the war. He expects that the agreement to be made will include a provision for cooperation of Russia.

Respectfully,
DCP D.C. Poole


COMMENT

This is an important document as it relates to the forthcoming resumption of relations with Russia by an important American company. It illustrates that the initiative came from the company, not from the State Department, and that no consideration was given to the effect of transfer of General Electric technology to a self-declared enemy. This GE agreement was the first step down a road of major technical transfers that led directly to the deaths of 100,000 Americans and countless allies.

~
End excerpts - next, let's skip backward a bit and snag some other names.

Begin excerpts:

DOCUMENT NO. 1

Cable from Ambassador Francis in Petrograd to the Department of State in Washington, D.C., dated March 14, 1917, and reporting the first stage of the Russian Revolution (861.00/273).


Petrograd
Dated March 14, 1917,
Recd. 15th, 2:30 a.m.

Secretary of State,
Washington

1287. Unable to send a cablegram since the eleventh. Revolutionists have absolute control in Petrograd and are making strenuous efforts to preserve order, which successful except in rare instances. No cablegrams since your 1251 of the ninth, received March eleventh. Provisional government organized under the authority of the Douma which refused to obey the Emperor's order of the adjournment. Rodzianko, president of the Douma, issuing orders over his own signature. Ministry reported to have resigned. Ministers found are taken before the Douma, also many Russian officers and other high officials. Most if not all regiments ordered to Petrograd have joined the revolutionists after arrival. American colony safe. No knowledge of any injuries to American citizens.

FRANCIS,
American Ambassador

On receipt of the preceding cable, Robert Lansing, Secretary of State, made its contents available to President Wilson (861.00/273):


PERSONAL AND CONFIDENTIAL

My Dear Mr. President:

I enclose to you a very important cablegram which has just come from Petrograd, and also a clipping from the New York WORLD of this morning, in which a statement is made by Signor Scialoia, Minister without portfolio in the Italian Cabinet, which is significant in view of Mr. Francis' report. My own impression is that the Allies know of this matter and I presume are favorable to the revolutionists since the Court party has been, throughout the war, secretely pro-German.

Faithfully yours,
ROBERT LANSING

Enclosure:
The President,
The White House


COMMENT

The significant phrase in the Lansing-Wilson letter is "My own impression is that the Allies know of this matter and I presume are favorable to the revolutionists since the Court party has been, throughout the war, secretely pro-German." It will be recalled (chapter two) that Ambassador Dodd claimed that Charles R. Crane, of Westinghouse and of Crane Co. in New York and an adviser to President Wilson, was involved in this first revolution.

~End excerpt

Well, I know some of that may strike us as dull and boring, so let's liven it up a bit. One more excerpt from Mr. Sutton's remarkable body of research:

~Begin excerpt

THE ALLIANCE OF BANKERS AND REVOLUTION


    The name Rockefeller does not connote a revolutionary, and my life situation has fostered a careful and cautious attitude that verges on conservatism. I am not given to errant causes...

   -  John D. Rockefeller III, The Second American Revolution (New York: Harper & Row. 1973)


THE EVIDENCE PRESENTED: A SYNOPSIS

Evidence already published by George Katkov, Stefan Possony, and Michael Futrell has established that the return to Russia of Lenin and his party of exiled Bolsheviks, followed a few weeks later by a party of Mensheviks, was financed and organized by the German government.1 The necessary funds were transferred in part through the Nya Banken in Stockholm, owned by Olof Aschberg, and the dual German objectives were: (a) removal of Russia from the war, and (b) control of the postwar Russian market.2

We have now gone beyond this evidence to establish a continuing working relationship between Bolshevik banker Olof Aschberg and the Morgan-controlled Guaranty Trust Company in New York before, during, and after the Russian Revolution. In tsarist times Aschberg was the Morgan agent in Russia and negotiator for Russian loans in the United States; during 1917 Aschberg was financial intermediary for the revolutionaries; and after the revolution Aschberg became head of Ruskombank, the first Soviet international bank, while Max May, a vice president of the Morgan-controlled Guaranty Trust, became director and chief of the Ruskom-bank foreign department. We have presented documentary evidence of a continuing working relationship between the Guaranty Trust Company and the Bolsheviks. The directors of Guaranty Trust in 1917 are listed in Appendix 1.

Moreover, there is evidence of transfers of funds from Wall Street bankers to international revolutionary activities. For example, there is the statement (substantiated by a cablegram) by William Boyce Thompson — a director of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, a large stockholder in the Rockefeller-controlled Chase Bank, and a financial associate of the Guggenheims and the Morgans — that he (Thompson) contributed $1 million to the Bolshevik Revolution for propaganda purposes. Another example is John Reed, the American member of the Third International executive committee who was financed and supported by Eugene Boissevain, a private New York banker, and who was employed by Harry Payne Whitney's Metropolitan magazine. Whitney was at that time a director of Guaranty Trust. We also established that Ludwig Martens, the first Soviet "ambassador" to the United States, was (according to British Intelligence chief Sir Basil Thompson) backed by funds from Guaranty Trust Company. In tracing Trotsky's funding in the U.S. we arrived at German sources, yet to be identified, in New York. And though we do not know the precise German sources of Trotsky's funds, we do know that Von Pavenstedt, the chief German espionage paymaster in the U.S., was also senior partner of Amsinck & Co. Amsinck was owned by the ever-present American International Corporation — also controlled by the J.P. Morgan firm.

Further, Wall Street firms including Guaranty Trust were involved with Carranza's and Villa's wartime revolutionary activities in Mexico. We also identified documentary evidence concerning. a Wall Street syndicate's financing of the 1912 Sun Yat-sen revolution in China, a revolution that is today hailed by the Chinese Communists as the precursor of Mao's revolution in China. Charles B. Hill, New York attorney negotiating with Sun Yat-sen in behalf of this syndicate, was a director of three Westinghouse subsidiaries, and we have found that Charles R. Crane of Westinghouse in Russia was involved in the Russian Revolution.

Quite apart from finance, we identified other, and possibly more significant, evidence of Wall Street involvement in the Bolshevik cause. The American Red Cross Mission to Russia was a private venture of William B. Thompson, who publicly proffered partisan support to the Bolsheviks. British War Cabinet papers now available record that British policy was diverted towards the Lenin-Trotsky regime by the personal intervention of Thompson with Lloyd George in December 1917. We have reproduced statements by director Thompson and deputy chairman William Lawrence Saunders, both of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, strongly favoring the Bolshevists. John Reed not only was financed from Wall Street, but had consistent support for his activities, even to the extent of intervention with the State Department from William Franklin Sands, executive secretary of American International Corporation. In the sedition case of Robert Minor there are strong indications and some circumstantial evidence that Colonel Edward House intervened to have Minor released. The significance of the Minor case is that William B. Thompson's program for Bolshevik revolution in Germany was the very program Minor was implementing when arrested in Germany.

Some international agents, for example Alexander Gumberg, worked for Wall Street and the Bolsheviks. In 1917 Gumberg was the representative of a U.S. firm in Petrograd, worked for Thompson's American Red Cross Mission, became chief Bolshevik agent in Scandinavia until he was deported from Norway, then became confidential assistant to Reeve Schley of Chase Bank in New York and later to Floyd Odium of Atlas Corporation.

This activity in behalf of the Bolsheviks originated in large part from a single address: 120 Broadway, New York City. The evidence for this observation is outlined but no conclusive reason is given for the unusual concentration of activity at a single address, except to state that it appears to be the foreign counterpart of Carroll Quigley's claim that J.P. Morgan infiltrated the domestic left. Morgan also infiltrated the international left.

The Federal Reserve Bank of New York was at 120 Broadway. The vehicle for this pro-Bolshevik activity was American International Corporation — at 120 Broadway. AIC views on the Bolshevik regime were requested by Secretary of State Robert Lansing only a few weeks after the revolution began, and Sands, executive secretary of AIC, could barely restrain his enthusiasm for the Bolshevik cause. Ludwig Martens, the Soviet's first ambassador, had been vice president of Weinberg & Posner, which was also located at 120-Broadway. Guaranty Trust Company was next door at 140 Broadway but Guaranty Securities Co. was at 120 Broadway. In 1917 Hunt, Hill & Betts was at 120 Broadway, and Charles B. Hill of this firm was the negotiator in the Sun Yat-sen dealings. John MacGregor Grant Co., which was financed by Olof Aschberg in Sweden and Guaranty Trust in the United States, and which was on the Military Intelligence black list, was at 120 Broadway. The Guggenheims and the executive heart of General Electric (also interested in American International) were at 120 Broadway. We find it therefore hardly surprising that the Bankers Club was also at 120 Broadway, on the top floor (the thirty-fourth).

It is significant that support for the Bolsheviks did not cease with consolidation of the revolution; therefore, this support cannot be wholly explained in terms of the war with Germany. The American-Russian syndicate formed in 1918 to obtain concessions in Russia was backed by the White, Guggenheim, and Sinclair interests. Directors of companies controlled by these three financiers included Thomas W. Lamont (Guaranty Trust), William Boyce Thompson (Federal Reserve Bank), and John Reed's employer Harry Payne Whitney (Guaranty Trust). This strongly suggests that the syndicate was formed to cash in on earlier support for the Bolshevik cause in the revolutionary period. And then we found that Guaranty Trust financially backed the Soviet Bureau in New York in 1919.

The first really concrete signal that previous political and financial support was paying off came in 1923 when the Soviets formed their first international bank, Ruskombank. Morgan associate Olof Aschberg became nominal head of this Soviet bank; Max May, a vice president of Guaranty Trust, became a director of Ruskom-bank, and the Ruskombank promptly appointed Guaranty Trust Company its U.S. agent.


~End excerpt.

There is more, but I need a nap. I'll continue with just a bit more of this tomorrow. I thank each of you for reading. While we let this stuff sink ever-deeper into our mentalities, we must remember that what we've just read here from Antony C. Sutton's research substantiates the banking and political and governmental activities which led directly to the Bank of International Settlements, which has aims for replacing your and my U.S. dollar with the Amero.  Remember that? It's what we started this thread with, lol. Something else which is about to congeal in our understanding is that while Wall Street financed the rise of the USSR by funding and building the Bolshevik Revolution and the subsequent communist regimes of the USSR, much of this activity, under the wraps of J.P. Morgan's cabal, was actually being directed and assisted by the Warburgs, Schiffs, and Rothschilds of Europe. You know, those nice guys who helped create the Federal Reserve System, Inc., which nobody knows now who owns, and which has never been audited. :)

This is what lies behind the globalization movement toward that one-world government which the NEA has been promoting since Carnegie got it kicked off with the blessings of wealth and finance. This is a major step up Cecil Rhodes' ladder to global dominance by the British Empire, which cares not in the least if its invisible Empire operates under the American flag whilst funneling your and my created wealth into the vaults of European banksters. It is real; it is history; and it is looking us right in the face as we speak here and now; and it wants several billion of us off of its planet plantation. It has said so publicly. These people intend to kill literally billions of us. And these people have the capability now to do just that, using the fruits of our tax dollar funded science and research and development projects which the CIA has been funding for half a century. (And yes, we have the proof of that too, which we may or may not get around to listing on this thread. I'm trying to keep this one much shorter and sweeter, lol.)

I'm sorry to ask readers here to read so much dry history, but for some of us, I trust, this is anything but dry. To give it some flavor and moisture, I'll assure you that it connects finally to the neo-con cabal which used our government to pitch the attacks of 911.

What? Don't believe me? Dang! Stick around then, eh?

Salute!
Elias




Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: jomama on April 05, 2006, 03:43:24 pm
I can't get excited about the size of the control or who's in charge and I don't do distractions from my personal well-being easily.  Besides, a bigger, lumbering giant is easier to outfox and outrun.

The solution to my personal freedom has always been to ignore their demands whenever possible.

The advent of the Amero would change nothing for me in that regard. Let them play their perfidious shell games
until it all flies apart.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: kel on April 06, 2006, 10:39:18 am
Before I started reading this, I was afraid that I might be paranoid. Now I'm afraid that I'm not. Keep it coming!
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 07, 2006, 01:02:12 am
Note as prelude - unless the reader is quite serious about wanting to  receive very discouraging information, this would be a very good place to quit reading this thread. I've good reason to question my sanity. Read further at your own risk.

Alright. Apologies for taking too long to get back into this thread.  Before summing up what we've got thus far on the thread, let's add a few more morsels, tasty if startling, from Antony C. Sutton's work. Prior to inserting the next pasted excerpts from his book, however, I would like to seriously recommend that serious inquirers here take advantage of the Internet while it is yet with us by going to this site and saving all the chapters of the book to 1) your hard-drive and 2) to a removable disc. There are a number of Sutton's books online for free downloading, and I'm sure that Mr. Sutton would be pleased to know that a whole battery of interested people cared enough about preserving the history and truth that they would save his books via the Internet. Thanks for letting me recommend that little word to the wise. Here is the link to Wall Street And The Bolshevik Revolution by Antony C. Sutton:

http://www.reformed-theology.org/html/books/bolshevik_revolution/index.html

The two previous posts by self which largely focused on excerpts from that book were taken from various chapters and end-notes of the book. The following excerpt is from Chapter 2.

~Begin quoted passage from above link:

President Woodrow Wilson was the fairy godmother who provided Trotsky with a passport to return to Russia to "carry forward" the revolution. This American passport was accompanied by a Russian entry permit and a British transit visa. Jennings C. Wise, in Woodrow Wilson: Disciple of Revolution, makes the pertinent comment, "Historians must never forget that Woodrow Wilson, despite the efforts of the British police, made it possible for Leon Trotsky to enter Russia with an American passport."
President Wilson facilitated Trotsky's passage to Russia at the same time careful State Department bureaucrats, concerned about such revolutionaries entering Russia, were unilaterally attempting to tighten up passport procedures. The Stockholm legation cabled the State Department on June 13, 1917, just after Trotsky crossed the Finnish-Russian border, "Legation confidentially informed Russian, English and French passport offices at Russian frontier, Tornea, considerably worried by passage of suspicious persons bearing American passports."

To this cable the State Department replied, on the same day, "Department is exercising special care in issuance of passports for Russia"; the department also authorized expenditures by the legation to establish a passport-control office in Stockholm and to hire an "absolutely dependable American citizen" for employment on control work.10 But the bird had flown the coop. Menshevik Trotsky with Lenin's Bolsheviks were already in Russia preparing to "carry forward" the revolution. The passport net erected caught only more legitimate birds. For example, on June 26, 1917, Herman Bernstein, a reputable New York newspaperman on his way to Petrograd to represent the New York Herald, was held at the border and refused entry to Russia. Somewhat tardily, in mid-August 1917 the Russian embassy in Washington requested the State Department (and State agreed) to "prevent the entry into Russia of criminals and anarchists... numbers of whom have already gone to Russia."

Consequently, by virtue of preferential treatment for Trotsky, when the S.S. Kristianiafjord left New York on March 26, 1917, Trotsky was aboard and holding a U.S. passport — and in company with other Trotskyire revolutionaries, Wall Street financiers, American Communists, and other interesting persons, few of whom had embarked for legitimate business. This mixed bag of passengers has been described by Lincoln Steffens, the American Communist:

The passenger list was long and mysterious. Trotsky was in the steerage with a group of revolutionaries; there was a Japanese revolutionist in my cabin. There were a lot of Dutch hurrying home from Java, the only innocent people aboard. The rest were war messengers, two from Wall Street to Germany....

Notably, Lincoln Steffens was on board en route to Russia at the specific invitation of Charles Richard Crane, a backer and a former chairman of the Democratic Party's finance committee. Charles Crane, vice president of the Crane Company, had organized the Westinghouse Company in Russia, was a member of the Root mission to Russia, [EA note: Elihu Root worked closely with Woodrow Wilson, Colonel House, the “Inquiry”, and others who were instrumental in creating the Council on Foreign Relations.] and had made no fewer than twenty-three visits to Russia between 1890 and 1930. Richard Crane, his son, was confidential assistant to then Secretary of State Robert Lansing. According to the former ambassador to Germany William Dodd, Crane "did much to bring on the Kerensky revolution which gave way to Communism."13 And so Steffens' comments in his diary about conversations aboard the S.S. Kristianiafjord are highly pertinent:

" . . . all agree that the revolution is in its first phase only, that it must grow. Crane and Russian radicals on the ship think we shall be in Petrograd for the re-revolution.

Crane returned to the United States when the Bolshevik Revolution (that is, "the re-revolution") had been completed and, although a private citizen, was given firsthand reports of the progress of the Bolshevik Revolution as cables were received at the State Department. For example, one memorandum, dated December 11, 1917, is entitled "Copy of report on Maximalist uprising for Mr Crane." It originated with Maddin Summers, U.S. consul general in Moscow, and the covering letter from Summers reads in part:
I have the honor to enclose herewith a copy of same [above report] with the request that it be sent for the confidential information of Mr. Charles R. Crane. It is assumed that the Department will have no objection to Mr. Crane seeing the report ....15

In brief, the unlikely and puzzling picture that emerges is that Charles Crane, a friend and backer of Woodrow Wilson and a prominent financier and politician, had a known role in the "first" revolution and traveled to Russia in mid-1917 in company with the American Communist Lincoln Steffens, who was in touch with both Woodrow Wilson and Trotsky. The latter in turn was carrying a passport issued at the orders of Wilson and $10,000 from supposed German sources. On his return to the U.S. after the "re-revolution," Crane was granted access to official documents concerning consolidation of the Bolshevik regime: This is a pattern of interlocking — if puzzling — events that warrants further investigation and suggests, though without at this point providing evidence, some link between the financier Crane and the revolutionary Trotsky.

~End excerpt from Chapter 2.

Sutton has drawn from Jennings C. Wise's Woodrow Wilson: Disciple of Revolution for his statement regarding Wilson's part in Leon Trotsky's passport and related papers, from New York to Russia. I have to confess that I do not have Wise's book, and so cannot verify Sutton's source on this – so I'm leaving that statement open for critical debunking or verification until such time as I can validate the source. I will state that Sutton is a highly-regarded historian in certain areas of interest, especially in the arena of the first half of the twentieth century, and because of the depth, breadth, and validity of his accompanying research, I shall tentatively proceed  on faith that we'll eventually come up with more concrete proof of Wilson's involvement with Trotsky's passport.

That said, let us wonder aloud for a moment about my theory of conspiracy as might be assisted in the knowledge, for certain, of Woodrow Wilson's participation in Trotsky's mission to Petrograd, where he was to meet with Lenin and consumate the establishment of the world's first Communist state, an entity which we would come to know as the USSR.

Despite John Buchanan's claim to be the first journalist to un-earth the hidden history of the relationship of George Herbert Walker, Prescott Bush, and the Harriman brothers, E. Roland and Averell, it is well documented that Anton Chaitkin and Webster Tarpley published their research into that treachery in 1992, more than a decade before Mr. Buchanan's endeavors. From what I gather from Chaitkin and Tarpley, the Union Banking Corporation, in which Prescott Bush was a director and which was seized under the Trading With The Enemy Act in October, 1942, was an umbrella company which functioned in a manner which is very similar to the way the Carlyle Group (and others of like ilk) function today.

There were scores and scores of U.S. businesses involved through the Dawes and Young Plan(s) in the rebuilding of Germany after World War I, many of which were involved in international monetary exchanges which would have utilized, after 1930, the Bank of International Settlements and other banking institutions.

These businesses, comprising a notable degree of Wall Street entities, were afforded inconspicuous and protected capabilities for creating what came to be known as The Third Reich – in effect, if not in intent. (There is of course plenty of evidence to prove “intent” on this subject, but I'm trying to keep this as brief as possible. Some of this evidence of “intent”, especially as evidenced by the Harrimans, G.H. Walker, and Prescott Bush, already exists in our first CT thread. Refer: post number one in this thread for link)

What the above passage by Sutton reveals is collusion between the corporate sector and the White House itself during President Wilson's administration. Let us bear in mind that Woodrow Wilson is famous for three major things – he gave us the Federal Reserve; he gave us the Federal income tax/IRS/16th Amendment, and he lied this nation into war on Britain's side even though this nation's people were not in favor of U.S. participation until the proper “pretext” (Lusitania) was achieved. Now we see that Wilson also, through Elihu Root and Colonel House and others, had a hand in the politicization of the Bolshevik Revolution by assuring Trotsky's journey to Russia ... and .... diplomatic relations with the corporate sector through the foreign service. That is what Crane's involvement in all this signifies.

Crane organized Westinghouse's business in Russia, was formerly involved with the Democratic Party's finance committee, was involved in other relevant business interests, was involved with President Truman directly, and is said to have personally assisted the Bolshevik victory. Sutton's footnotes source this adequately.

Consequently, for purposes on this thread, we may note that both the White House and Wall Street played major roles in the success of the Bolshevik Revolution and the advent of the USSR. We then note that another Wall Street veteran, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, carried forward what Wilson had started, by fraudulently (think: lying through his teeth) involving this nation in World War II and implementing the New Deal, which was one of the most significant statist/socialist/governmental  advances of the first part of the twentieth century.
 
We now know that through manipulation of their “discount window” the Federal Reserve crashed Wall Street deliberately in 1929 and then, by further contraction of this nation's money supply deepened the results of that crash into what history calls “The Great Depression” of the 1930s, which Roosevelt used from 1933 onward to consolidate and centralize the Federal government's grasp upon the average American's daily life and prepare this nation to enter WWII on the side of Britain.

Also we now know that the Dawes Plan and the Young Plan were used by the Bush, Walker, Harriman triad to arm and logistically empower Hitler from 1933 onward. And we know that Dawes and Young and Hjalmar Schacht would create the Bank of International Settlements for dubious purposes. And also,  we now know that the men who would create the CFR would also be involved in literally every financial and governmental and political endeavor of every Administration from Wilson to Roosevelt (and afterward as well). What I have touched on in the CT 1 thread but have not got back into here is the role played in The Inquiry, in the Versailles Treaty, in the Dawes and Young Plans, in the legal interface of Harriman Brothers and Union Banking Corporation with Schacht and Fritz Thyssen, among too many other equally treasonous matters, by Allen Dulles and his brother, John Foster Dulles.

I do not know what readers here may see in all this, but to me there is beginning to coalesce a mosaic, a collage of sorts, which reveals a network of “connections” at the highest levels and which, were we to agree that those connections are valid, would explain the precedent and the motive for the Administration of FDR to capitalize on our having previously broken the Japanese codes prior to Pearl Harbor and then acting surprised when Japan attacked.
 
Soon I intend to add into the mix here some coverage of the role played in all of these sordid and treasonous events by the secret society headquartered at Yale University named Skull and Bones. We will take a look into S&B very soon, and when we do, we will also look at the relationship between S&B and the CFR. And what that is going to lead us to is the realization that many of these above-named individuals, including U.S. Presidents, and many thus-far un-named players, have been and are presently active participants in occult rituals which feature the worship of death – and human sacrifice rituals.
 
Heh! Right now I'm imagining that I've just lost about eighty percent of the readers of this thread. I do not blame anyone who quits at this point, and I would like to caution anyone who remains to gird-up yourself well, prepare yourselves, for the road is going to become even more bumpy as we carry this history forward toward our situation today. E're closing this post, allow me to address a couple of post-makers who've left comments for me above.

jomama said:
Quote
I can't get excited about the size of the control or who's in charge and I don't do distractions from my personal well-being easily.  Besides, a bigger, lumbering giant is easier to outfox and outrun.

That is an admirable attitude, jomama, but I'm afraid I've got bad news for you on that count. Ever hear of H.A.A.R.P.? Among literally dozens of other alternatives these people have by which to control or eliminate you and your personal well-being is the aerosol capability. I'll be getting to that later in this thread. You and I have no place left to run, my friend. All of this sickness we're looking at in our history of the 20th Century, including the two Wws and the Cold War, is child's play compared to what is coming at us now.

Quote
The solution to my personal freedom has always been to ignore their demands whenever possible.

Again I salute your excellent attitude and lament that we're no longer living in the pre-WWII world. We may ignore this, but our ig-norance is not gonna protect us. These people, those silent financiers who operate through the BIS and every stratum below it, are committed to purging this earth of literally billions of we mere peasants – and they have that capability as we speak here. The irony is that we tax-paying citizens of the civilized world paid for it and gave it to them.

Quote
The advent of the Amero would change nothing for me in that regard. Let them play their perfidious shell games until it all flies apart.

Ah, I used to share your view and your approach – but they're way beyond any dependency upon the Amero now. They are even beyond the “cashless society” they once thought they needed. I'm afraid I do not have much good news. In fact, I'm afraid – period. As other contemplative men have already noted, “My biggest prayer is that someone shall prove me wrong.”

Salute! Stay tuned.

Next I heard from kel, who said:
Quote
Before I started reading this, I was afraid that I might be paranoid. Now I'm afraid that I'm not. Keep it coming!

Wel saidl, kel.  I intend to do just that, and I salute your bravery and your willingness to face the truth in the form of the unknown. Because I truly think that we are all living on borrowed time, I intend to at least get my personal perspective on this typed into a screen and posted-up to the Net, and I'm hoping beyond hope that I've enough time left for the completion of my ongoing book. I do not think my book will do anything to help us at this late date, it's just something I want to complete while I've still got this old worn-out body and a face – and a trigger-finger – with which to meet the face of global evil. My word to you is that I shall continue to deposit the history onto this thread in hopes it may help some reader(s) comprehend what is about to befall us all. From where I sit presently, it matters not much at all if anyone believes a word of this, or whether anyone thinks I'm stark raving mad. I'm just gonna type it in and paste it in as long as I'm here to do so. I am not sure if there is any hope left, at this point. Love your family and honor your good neighbor and consider whether you'll live in slavery and deprivation or whether you'll instead consider the terms of your voluntary death, and how much freedom you yet retain to decide those terms. And if you believe in prayer, it's time.

Meanwhile, let us ponder just “why” two men in the U.S. Presidency would lie this nation into the two World Wars. And let us ponder for whom, and what, they would do so. I suggest that there was something even larger, and possessed of more gravity, than their oaths of office residing in their hearts, and it is exactly and precisely that which I'm seeking to reveal here.  Any more, I'm not really sure why I want to reveal that. I feel that this information may be coming too late. In a sobering way, I am saddened that I persisted until I found the sordid truth. Any reader here may be better off not knowing what I've found; but then, perhaps the knowledge is something onto which one can hold, at and in one's own - moment-zero.

Thank you so much for reading and commenting.

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Bill St. Clair on April 07, 2006, 07:04:49 am
Still with you, General. Please proceed.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Junker on April 08, 2006, 03:39:05 am
Here too.

I also ran into a site with *lots* of old books.

http://yamaguchy.netfirms.com/

Thomas Jefferson - Selected letters on currency, banking, national debt.
The Anti-Bank Democrat - A newspaper published in 1842 by anti bank democrats.
Greenbacks (by Observer, 1864) - ...pay to the bearer on demand as a measure of value,
Greenback Catechism (Mark Pomeroy, 1877)
The Great Red Dragon or the London Money Power (L.B. Woolfolk, 1890) - the beast as the international money power.
The Money Problem (Arthur Kitson, 1903)
The Coming American Fascism (Lawrence Dennis, 1936) - ...solved ... production, now solve distribution.
The Money Manipulators (June Grem, 1971)
Andrew Jackson and the Bank of the United States (William Royall, 1880)
Seven Financial Conspiracies (Sarah Emery, 1887) - A suffragette.
Errors in Our Monetary System (Mary E. Hobart, 1891) - '...covered up by the technicalities of law as completely to deceive the people respecting its true character.'
Banking and Currency and the Money Trust (Charles Lindbergh, 1913)
The Great Conspiracy of the House of Morgan Exposed (Henry Loucks, 1916) - J.P. Morgan and the Federal Reserve.
History of the Great American Fortunes (Gustavus Myers, 1910)
History of the Supreme Court of the United States (Gustavus Myers, 1912)
Triumphant Plutocracy (Senator Richard Pettigrew, 1922)
The Fall of the Russian Empire (Edmund Walsh, 1928)
The German high command financed the bolshevik revolution and gave the inspiration to the idea of leninism.
Red Symphony - Adolf but a tool of the international money power

etc. etc. etc.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 08, 2006, 03:57:40 am
Junker, that is probably the nicest gift you've ever given me. What an absolutely smashing find, Dear Chap! Wow. :)

Truly an amazing resource. I can see already that my weekend will include some hours of downloading those books, and I'm amazed that this collection is online for free reading. Dang! Better than finding gold! I've been wanting that book by Lindberg for some time now, and here it is for free. Most happy discovery. Thanks, Bro!

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Junker on April 08, 2006, 04:15:58 am
:)
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: henshawe on April 08, 2006, 10:26:29 am
G'Day Gen'l

I with ya 'til the end as well. Can't leave now when your getting to the really interesting part :mellow:

Americus
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 08, 2006, 05:36:31 pm
It will take more than one post to get this next part into the thread. I must just post part of it now, and return later to post the rest.


Northwoods



Out of the Iran-Contra-Mena U.S. Senate hearings came words like “secret government”, “invisible government”, and “shadow government”. When the subject of “continuity of government”came up during Senate proceedings, the Chair consistently and ardently denied, refused to allow, any discussion of the subject. But through the Senate hearings the American public was made aware that certain Secret activities within the US government had been criminal, had been costly in a number of unfortunate ways, had been embarrassing, and were offensive to our American form of representative government. Indictments were issued, which the man behind the Secret government policies, George Herbert Walker Bush, would later undo with Presidential pardons.

A number of landmark revelations suggesting the existence of a secret government with a rogue agenda exist, and the Iran-Contra-Mena hearings are but one. Perhaps the classic example is the Northwoods Document which came into public awareness decades after it had been written. ABC News disclosed something of the nature of the Northwoods Document while reviewing a book by James Bamford.  Below are some excerpts from their article of May 1, 2001, about four months before 911.

Link good as of April, 2006.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/print?id=92662

N E W  Y O R K, May 1, 2001 - In the early 1960s, America's top military leaders reportedly drafted plans to kill innocent people and commit acts of terrorism in U.S. cities to create public support for a war against Cuba.

Code named Operation Northwoods, the plans reportedly included the possible assassination of Cuban émigrés, sinking boats of Cuban refugees on the high seas, hijacking planes, blowing up a U.S. ship, and even orchestrating violent terrorism in U.S. cities.

The plans were developed as ways to trick the American public and the international community into supporting a war to oust Cuba's then new leader, communist Fidel Castro.

America's top military brass even contemplated causing U.S. military casualties, writing: "We could blow up a U.S. ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba," and, "casualty lists in U.S. newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation."

Details of the plans are described in Body of Secrets (Doubleday), a new book by investigative reporter James Bamford about the history of America's largest spy agency, the National Security Agency. However, the plans were not connected to the agency, he notes.

The plans had the written approval of all of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and were presented to President Kennedy's defense secretary, Robert McNamara, in March 1962. But they apparently were rejected by the civilian leadership and have gone undisclosed for nearly 40 years.

"These were Joint Chiefs of Staff documents. The reason these were held secret for so long is the Joint Chiefs never wanted to give these up because they were so embarrassing," Bamford told ABCNEWS.com.

The plans were motivated by an intense desire among senior military leaders to depose Castro, who seized power in 1959 to become the first communist leader in the Western Hemisphere — only 90 miles from U.S. shores.

"The whole thing was so bizarre," says Bamford, noting public and international support would be needed for an invasion, but apparently neither the American public, nor the Cuban public, wanted to see U.S. troops deployed to drive out Castro.

The Joint Chiefs at the time were headed by Eisenhower appointee Army Gen. Lyman L. Lemnitzer, who, with the signed plans in hand made a pitch to McNamara on March 13, 1962, recommending Operation Northwoods be run by the military.

The Senate Foreign Relations Committee published its own report on right-wing extremism in the military, warning a "considerable danger" in the "education and propaganda activities of military personnel" had been uncovered. The committee even called for an examination of any ties between Lemnitzer and right-wing groups. But Congress didn't get wind of Northwoods, says Bamford.

One idea was to create a war between Cuba and another Latin American country so that the United States could intervene. Another was to pay someone in the Castro government to attack U.S. forces at the Guantanamo naval base — an act, which Bamford notes, would have amounted to treason. And another was to fly low level U-2 flights over Cuba, with the intention of having one shot down as a pretext for a war.

Ironically, the documents came to light, says Bamford, in part because of the 1992 Oliver Stone film JFK, which examined the possibility of a conspiracy behind the assassination of President Kennedy.

As public interest in the assassination swelled after JFK's release, Congress passed a law designed to increase the public's access to government records related to the assassination.

The author says a friend on the board tipped him off to the documents.

Afraid of a congressional investigation, Lemnitzer had ordered all Joint Chiefs documents related to the Bay of Pigs destroyed, says Bamford. But somehow, these remained.

"The scary thing is none of this stuff comes out until 40 years after," says Bamford.

Copyright © 2006 ABC News Internet Ventures

~End excerpts from ABC News article of 2001.

What Mr. Bamford was talking about is one of the most amazing documents ever released under the Freedom Of Information Act. In this document high-level Pentagon planners, including the Joint Chiefs of Staff themselves, were brain-storming for “pretexts” which would enlist public support for invading Cuba. While the truth was that Castro's Cuba was a benign (at that time) nation-state which could pose no threat to the United States, that truth itself was clearly not what the USG's war machine wanted.

What was wanted, what was desired, what some people felt was needed and necessary, was a military invasion of Cuba and forced regime change. We may note that this document was drafted before the Cuban-Russian-U.S. missile crisis, so that later development. was not in play when the Northwoods Document was created.

Certain interests wanted to invade Cuba, as we shall see. To do that, and have the support of the American public, they were looking into pretexts. What, then, is a “pretext”?

From my Random House Dictionary, 2nd Edition Unabridged, I read under “pretext”:

“Something that is put forward to conceal a true purpose or object; an ostensible reason; excuse.”

So the Joint Chiefs of Staff were looking for an excuse, a false-flag “ostensible reason” which would “justify” a military invasion by the U.S. of Cuba. These men were grown men, supposedly fit to serve this nation's interests at the Pentagon and as the heads of the various branches of the U.S. military. They were presumed by an unwitting public to be trustworthy, honest, careful in their decision-making policy, sensitive to the will of the people in every important way – and yet they were sitting around planning tables and offices trying to think up lies which they could sell to the American people.

And now, forty-four years afterward, they're caught in criminality which is so bogus as to, were it not so hideously sinister and evil, would appear to be comic. The old black and white movie, Dr. Strangelove comes to mind. But in this case we're dealing with actual history, with realism instead of fiction. Every time I read this document I get fearful, I get angry, and I feel more and more helpless in the face of such monstrosity. We are talking about the U.S. Pentagon here, and the heads of the Army, Marine Corps, Navy, Air Force, and Coast Guard. We are talking about the leadership and the highest authorities within the largest, most overly-financed, most widely-spread, most diversely-armed, most highly-technologically developed military force in the history of mankind.

And those gentlemen were busily thinking up ways to convince the American people of the need to invade a foreign, sovereign nation-state which was posing no threat to the American people. They were considering possibilities which would derive from creating acts of terrorism against innocent people and properties, at tax-payer expense, using para-military Intelligence-community operatives such as agents-provocateur and “informants” and contracted criminals of even lower moral standing, such as the infamous Melvin Lattimore and Ali Mohammed, to execute terror acts which would serve as “pretexts” to thereby gain public support for their desired war. I submit that what these Admirals and Generals were up to can in no way be interpreted to possess congruence with their oaths of office and moral commitments to the will of the American people, this Federal government, and our U.S. Constitution.

I think that the creation of the Northwoods Document is blatant treason tinged with an overlaying of outright insanity. Since that statement by self is fairly strong on many levels, let us pause to refresh our memory regarding the content of the document.

~ Begin quoting passages from the Northwoods Document:
13 March 1962

MEMORANDUM FOR THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE
Subject: Justification for US Military Intervention in Cuba (TS)

The Joint Chiefs of Staff have considered the attached Memorandum for the Chief of Operations, Cuba Project, which responds to a request of that office for brief but precise description of pretexts which would provide justification for US military intervention in Cuba.

The Joint Chiefs of Staff recommend that the proposed memorandum be forwarded as a preliminary submission suitable for planning purposes. It is assumed that there will be similar submissions from other agencies and that these inputs will be used as a basis for developing a time-phased plan. Individual projects can then be considered on a case-by-case basis.

Further, it is assumed that a single agency will be given the primary responsibility for developing military and para-military aspects of the basic plan. It is recommended that this responsibility for both overt and covert military operations be assigned the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

(Signing) For the Joint Chiefs of Staff:
L.L.Lemnitzer, Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff
1 Enclosure for Chief of Operations, Cuba Project

~End quoted passages from first page of Northwoods Document.

We see that someone put the JCS up to figuring out what sort of events could be engineered, staged and executed, and publicized, to sway public perception regarding Cuba, and whoever did that must have been someone whom the Joint Chiefs of Staff recognized as sitting in a higher office then their own. I think that is fairly obvious. In other words, the authority for the project came from above the JCS level, was accepted by the JCS, and once the project had selected what it considered to be the best examples of possible pretexts they then offered it up the chain of command to the issuing authority in the form of an official Department of Defense document, signed by the Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff himself, General Lemnitzer.

As an American and as a Montanan, I have a serious problem with that, and I trust that you do also. It is folly of the most potent type, it is illegal, it is immoral, it is deadly, it is abusive of sacred powers which had been entrusted in the hands of the JCS, and it is laden with unintended consequences which have extenuating repercussions affecting us even today, more than four decades later. And yet not one of these treasoners ever faced any charges for participating in this sordid conspiracy to deceive the American public and its representative government. They were protected by a wall of Secrecy in the name of “National Security”. But let's look more deeply into the document:

~Begin quoting passages from Northwoods Document, page 5 (five).

JUSTIFICATION FOR US MILITARY INTERVENTION IN CUBA (TS)
The Problem
As requested* by Chief of Operations, Cuba Project, the Joint Chiefs of Staff are to indicate brief but precise description of pretexts which they consider would provide justification for US military intervention in Cuba.
FACTS BEARING ON THE PROBLEM
It is recognized that any action which becomes pretext for US military intervention in Cuba will lead to a political decision which then would lead to military action.
Cognizance has been taken of a suggested course of action proposed ** by the US Navy relating to generated instances in the Guantanamo area.
For additional facts see Enclosure B.
DISCUSSION
The suggested courses of action appended to Enclosure A are based on the premise that US military intervention will result from a period of heightened US-Cuban tensions which place the United States in the position of suffering justifiable grievances. World opinion, and the United Nations forum should be favorably affected by developing the international image of the Cuban government as rash and irresponsible, and as an alarming and unpredictable threat to the peace of the Western Hemisphere.
While the foregoing premise can be utilized at the present time it will continue to hold good as long as there can be reasonble certainty that US military intervention in Cuba would not directly  involve the Soviet Union. There is (end body of page 5, turning to page 6.)
Footnotes to page 5:
*Memorandum for General Craig from Chief of Operations, Cuba Project, subject: “Operation MONGOOSE”, dated 5 March 1962, on file in General Craig's office.
**Memorandum for the Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff, from Chief of Naval Operations, subject: “Instances to Provoke Military Actions in Cuba (TS)”, dated 8 March 1962, on file in General Craig's office.

Page 6:
[There is] ...as yet no bilateral mutual support agreement binding the USSR to the defense of Cuba, Cuba has not yet become a member of the Warsaw Pact, nor have the Soviets established Soviet bases in Cuba in the pattern of US bases in Western Europe. Therefore, since time appears to be an important factor in resolution of the Cuba problem, all projects are suggested within the time frame of the next few months.
CONCLUSION
The suggested courses of action appended to Enclosure A satisfactorily respond to the statement of the problem. However, these suggestions should be forwarded as a preliminary submission suitable for planning purposes, and together with similar inputs from other agencies, provide a basis for development of a single, integrated, time-phased plan to focus all efforts on the objective of justification for US military intervention in Cuba.
RECOMMENDATIONS
It is recommended that:
Enclosure A together with its attachments should be forwarded to the Secretary of Defense for approval and transmittal to the Chief of Operations, Cuba Project.
This paper NOT be forwarded to commanders of unified or specified commands.
This paper NOT be forwarded to US officers assigned to NATO activities.
This paper NOT be forwarded to the Chairman, US Delegation, United Nations Military Staff Committee.

~End quoted passages from page 6, Northwoods Document.

I'll be back shortly with the remainder of this installment.

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Roy J. Tellason on April 09, 2006, 12:00:14 am
Junker, that is probably the nicest gift you've ever given me. What an absolutely smashing find, Dear Chap! Wow. :)

Truly an amazing resource. I can see already that my weekend will include some hours of downloading those books,

Hehe...

You ain't the only one!  :-)

Quote
and I'm amazed that this collection is online for free reading. Dang! Better than finding gold! I've been wanting that book by Lindberg for some time now, and here it is for free. Most happy discovery. Thanks, Bro!

Salute!
Elias

I've been having a grand old time downloading whole books when I can find 'em.  More for the pile!
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 09, 2006, 04:45:39 pm
Northwoods Document Part Two

Before going further into the document, let us note in passing that twice thus far in this document it has been stated that “other agencies” were working on similar ideas for pretexts. These other agencies would be reporting to someone also, alongside this report from the Pentagon's chiefs. On page 8 we read the following refinement:

“...It is assumed that there will be similar submissions from other agencies and that these inputs will be used as a basis for developing a time-phased plan...

This plan, incorporating projects selected from the attached suggestions, or from other sources, should be developed to focus all efforts on a specific ultimate objective which would provide adequate justification for US military intervention. Such a plan would enable a logical build-up of incidents to be combined with other seemingly unrelated events to camouflage the ultimate objective and create the necessary impression of Cuban rashness and irresponsibility on a large scale, directed at other countries as well as the United States. The plan would also properly integrate and time phase the courses of action to be pursued. The desired resultant from the execution of this plan would be to place the United States in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances from a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba and to develop an international image of a Cuban threat to peace in the Western Hemisphere.”
(page 8)

We may now be certain that other agencies, including some offices in the U.S. State Department, were working on this plan contemporaneously, and that the objective of the plan revolved around creating public perception. I find this to be amazing. Here we have government agencies and the Joint Chiefs of Staff literally planning a mass-consciousness program, in total secrecy non the less,  which would be, if approved by the Administration, implemented, inserted via media and press, into the public mentality. The conspiracy theorist's favorite words for this sort of thing are: “mind control”. This document clearly reveals that our government was at that time in the hands of men who would deliberately exercise mind-control methodologies in pursuit of a desired illegal operation which would be cloaked by a foggy veil of concocted pretexts.

But it gets worse.

Let's look at some of the bright ideas our fearless military leadership imagined. On page 10 we read:

“Since it would seem desirable to use legitimate provocation as the basis for US military intervention in Cuba  a cover and deception plan, to include requisite preliminary actions such as has been developed in response to Task 33 c, could be executed as an initial effort to provoke Cuban reactions. Harassment plus deceptive actions to convince the Cubans of imminent invasion would be emphasized. Our military posture throughout execution of the plan will allow a rapid change from exercise to intervention if Cuban response justifies.”

Here they are considering holding military war-game exercises nearby, which could transform easily and quickly into military intervention against Cuba, if they were successful in their attempts to provoke Cuba with their covert ops. I note the use of the words “cover” and “deception”. Are you believing this? It causes one to wonder what other Pentagon documents have been successfully hidden from we the people. But continuing on with contents of page 10 and beyond, we get into the details:

~Begin quoting of passages from document, beginning on page 10 and going forward:

A series of well coordinated incidents will be planned to take place in and around Guantanamo to give genuine appearance of being done by hostile Cuban forces.
Incidents to establish a credible attack (not in chronological order):
Start rumors (many). Use clandestine radio.
Land friendly Cubans in uniform “over-the-fence” to stage attack on base. [EA note: the Marine base]
Capture Cuban (friendly) saboteurs inside the base.
Start riots near the base main gate (friendly Cubans).

[Continuing on  page 11:]

Blow up ammunition inside base; start fires.
Burn aircraft on air base (sabotage).
Lob mortar shells from outside of base into base. Some damage to installations.
Capture assault teams approaching from the sea or vicinity of Guantanamo City.
Capture militia group which storms the base.
Sabotage ship near harbor entrance. Conduct funerals for mock-victims (may be in lieu of 10).

United States would respond by executing offensive operations to secure water and power supplies, destroying artillery and mortar emplacements which threaten the base.
Commence large scale United States military operations.

A “Remember the Maine” incident could be arranged in several forms:
We could blow up a US ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba.
We could blow up a drone (unmanned) vessel anywhere in the Cuban waters. We could arrange to cause such incident in the vicinity of Havana or Santiago as a spectacular result of Cuban attack from the air or sea, or both. The presence of Cuban planes or ships merely investigating the intent of the vessel could be fairly compelling evidence that the ship was taken under attack. The nearness to Havana or Santiago would add credibility especially to those people that might have heard the blast or have seen the fire. The US could follow up with an air/sea rescue operation covered by US fighters to “evacuate” remaining members of the non-existent crew. Casualty lists in US newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation.

We could develop a Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington.  [emphasis by EA. Yes, they actually said this. I just put it in bold.]

~ Begin page 12, but skipping first part of that page:

Use of MIG type aircraft by US pilots could provide additional provocation. Harassment of civil air, attacks on surface shipping and destruction of US military drone aircraft by MIG type planes would be useful as complementary actions.

~Begin page 13:

Hijacking attempts against civil air and surface craft should appear to continue as harassing measures condoned by the government of Cuba. Concurrently, genuine defections of Cuban civil and military air and surface craft should be encouraged....

It is possible to create an incident which will demonstrate convincingly that a Cuban aircraft has attacked and shot down a chartered civil airliner enroute from the United States to Jamaica, Guatemala, Panama or Venezuela.... The passengers [EA note: passengers as here referenced are not “real”, but instead are aliased stand-ins for press and media objectives.] could be a group of college students off on a holiday or any grouping of persons with a common interest to support chartering a non-scheduled flight.

An aircraft at Eglin AFB would be painted and numbered as an exact duplicate for a civil registered aircraft belonging to a CIA proprietary [EA: that would have been CAT: Civil Air Transport. Keep in mind that in 1962 these birds already knew the magic of duplicating a commercial airliner with a covert copy, including paint job and duplicated numbers. We will refer back to this later.] organization in the Miami area.  At a designated time the duplicate would be substituted for the actual civil aircraft and would be loaded with the selected passengers, all boarded under carefully prepared aliases. The actual registered aircraft would be converted to a drone.

[EA: again, keep these two details in mind for later referencing – fake passenger lists and the ability to convert an aircraft into a “drone”, which is a pilotless, crewless ground-controlled flight, were suggested parts of the Northwoods plan. This was, again we note, back in 1962. It, as do other portions of this document, establishes a “precedent” which permits us to ask certain questions today.]

Page 14
It is possible to create an incident which will make it appear that Communist Cuban MIGs have destroyed a USAF aircraft over international waters in an unprovoked attack....

Last page
The need for positive action in the event that current covert efforts to foster an internal Cuban rebellion are unsuccessful was indicated by the Joint Chiefs of Staff on 7 March 1962, as follows:
“_ _ _ determination that a credible internal revolt is impossible of attainment during the next 9-10 months will require a decision by the United States to develop a Cuban “provocation” as justification for positive US military action.”

It is understood that the Department of State also is preparing suggested courses of action to develop justification for US military intervention in Cuba.

~End excerpts from Northwoods Document.

I would simply note that the Northwoods Document is a reality. It was created and became a part of America's military history. It was not, at least not directly, acted upon, but it was most certainly written as a result of orders within (and from above) the Joint Chiefs of Staff, was signed by the JCS, was presented to Defense Secretary Robert S. McNamara as a viable approach to deceiving the American public for purposes about which the American public was deliberately denied knowledge, and was concealed from the American people for nearly forty years.

This document stands as an undebatable insight into official military thinking processes and presumptions which have flourished behind closed doors since, but not limited in time to,  the creation of the National Security State in 1947.

I continue to be limited by other time-constraints. I have alluded to the Bohemian Grove phenomenon and I have also hinted that shortly we shall wish to summarize the information contained within the first several pages of this thread.  What I think I'd like to do is go ahead with the Bohemian Grove material, and then focus on a discussion which would take into account the subtle and not-so-subtle meanings now visible when we look at this thread's content in relation to its several sub-topics. I hope to be back later this evening to post on Bohemian Grove.

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on April 09, 2006, 07:05:40 pm
off the subject

for the past week I have been experiencing a strange anomoly on my work laptop. If I am using my work pc and connecting to the interenet through the company's proxy server, when I try to read this thread my pc just clocks. If I am using the same laptop at home, connected to the internet directly, no problem. But, if I then connect to work through VPN and try to read this thread through the proxy, clocking. I have to actually shut down the browser window and reopen. However, I am at work right now, and I was able to pull this up through the "10 Most recent posts" at the bottom of the home page. I went so far as deleting cookies and temp files and increasing temp space from 20 meg to 200 meg with no difference. So, I tried last night to PM you, Elias, and I just clocked on the page for your ID. After shutting down the browser window I tried many other people's ID pages and got to them with no prolem. I think I have also tried a couple other threads you had posted in. This is too weird.

OK. Back to the Conspiracy Theory thread, which was already in progress.

I don't remember who said it, but I think I posted it somewhere, "It's only a theory until you have some facts to back it up."
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 10, 2006, 01:29:50 am

Bohemian Grove


I have typed in below the following, which is from The Bohemian Grove And Other Retreats: A Study In Ruling Class Cohesiveness, authored and copyrighted by G. William Domhoff in 1974. (See note below)

~

Picture yourself comfortably seated in a beautiful open-air dining hall in the midst of twenty-seven hundred acres of giant California redwoods. It is early evening and the clear July air is still pleasantly warm. Dusk has descended, you have finished a sumptuous dinner, and you are sitting quietly with your drink and your cigar, listening to nostalgic welcoming speeches and enjoying the gentle light and the eerie shadows that are cast by the two-stemmed gaslights flickering softly at each of the several hundred outdoor banquet tables.

You are part of an assemblage that has been meeting in this redwood grove sixty-five miles north of San Francisco for nearly a hundred years. It is not just any assemblage, for you are a captain of industry, a well-known television star, a banker, a famous artist, or maybe a member of the President's Cabinet. You are one of fifteen hundred men gathered together from all over the country for the annual encampment of the rich and the famous at the Bohemian Grove. And you are about to take part in a strange ceremony that has marked every Bohemian Grove gathering since 1880. You are about to be initiated into the encampment by the Cremation of Care.

Out of the shadows on one of the hillsides near the dining circle there comes the low, sad sounds of a funeral dirge. As you turn your head in its direction you faintly see the outlines of men dressed in pointed red hoods and red flowing robes. Some of the men are playing the funereal music; others are carrying long torches whose flames are a spectacular sight against the darkened forest.

As the procession approaches the dining circle, the dim figures become more distinct, and attention fixes on several men not previously noticed who are carrying a large wooden box. Upon closer inspection the box turns out to be an open coffin, and in that coffin is a body, a human body- real enough to be lifelike at a glance, but only an imitation, made of black muslin wrapped around a wooden skeleton. This is the body of Care, symbolizing the concerns and woes that important men supposedly must bear in their daily lives. It is Dull Care that is to be cremated this first Saturday night of the two-week encampment of the Bohemian Grove.

The cortege now trails slowly past the dining area, and the men in the dining circle fall into line behind the hooded priests and pallbearers, following the body of Care toward its ultimate destination. The entire parade (all white, mostly elderly) makes its way along a road leading to a picturesque little lake that is yet another of the sylvan sights the Bohemian Grove has to offer.

It takes the communicants about five minutes to make their march to this new setting. Once at the lake the priests and the body of Care go off to the right, in the direction of a very large altar which faces the lake. The followers, talking quietly and remarking on the once-again-perfect Grove weather, move to the left so they canobserve the ceremony from a green meadow on the other side of the lake. They will be about fifty to a hundred yards from the altar, which looms skyward thirty to forty feet and reveals itself to be in the form of a huge Owl, whose cement shell is mottled with primeval green mosses.

While the spectators seat themselves across the lake, the priests and their entourage continue for another two or three hundred yards beyond the altar to a boat landing. There the bier is carefully transferred onto the Ferry of Care, which will carry the body to the altar later in the ceremony. The ferry loaded, the torches are extinguished and the music ends. The attention of the spectators on the other side of the lake slowly drifts back to the Owl shrine; it is illuminated by a gentle flame from the Lamp of Fellowship which sits at its base.

People who have seen the ceremony before nudge you to keep your eye on the large redwood next to the Owl. Moments later an offstage chorus of “woodland voices” begins to sing. Then a spotlight illuminates the tree you've been watching, and there emerges from it a hamadryad, a “tree spirit”, whose life, according to Greek mythology, is intimately bound up with the tree in which it lives. The hamadryad begins to sing, telling the supplicants that beauty and strength and peace are theirs as long as the trees of the Grove are there. It sings of the “temple-aisles of the wood” that are made for “your delight”, and implores the Bohemians to “burn away the sorrows of yesterday” and to “cast your grief to the fires and be strong with the holy trees and the spirit of the Grove”. (Author Domhoff note1: Charles K. Field, The Cremation of Care (1946, 1953), for these and following quotes. A copy of this small pamphlet can be found in the Bancroft Library, University of California, Berkeley.)

With the end of this uplifting song, the hamadryad returns to its tree, the chorus silences, and the light on the tree fades out. Only natural illumination from the moon and stars remains, and it is time for the high priest and his many assistants to enter the large area in front of the Owl. “The Owl is in his leafy temple”, intones the high priest. “Let all within the Grove be reverent before him.” He beseeches the spectators to be inspired and awed by their surroundings, noting that this is Bohemia's shrine. Then he invokes the motto of the club, “Weaving spiders, come not here!” -- which is a line from Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream. It is supposed to warn members not to discuss business and worldly concerns, but only the arts, literature, and other pleasures, within the portals of Bohemia.

The priest next walks down three large steps to the edge of the lake. There he makes a flowery speech about the ripple of waters, the song of birds, the forest floor, and evening's cool kiss. Again he calls on the members to forsake their usual concerns. “Shake off your sorrows with the City's dust and scatter to the winds the cares of life.” A second and third priest then recall to memory deceased friends who loved the Bohemian Grove, and the high priest makes yet another effusive speech, the gist of it being that “Great Nature” is a “refuge for the weary heart” and a “balm for breasts that have been bruised”.

A brief song is sung by the chorus and suddenly the high priest proclaims: “Our funeral pyre awaits the corpse of Care!” A horn is sounded at the boat landing. Anon, the Ferry of Care, with its beautifully ornamented frontispiece, begins its brief passage to the foot of the shrine. Its trip is accompanied by the music of a barcarole – a barcarole being the song of Venetian gondoliers as they pole you through the canals of Venice. As one listens to the barcarole, it becomes even clearer that many little extra touches have been added by the Bohemians who have lovingly developed this ritual over its ninety-four-year history.

The bier arrives at the steps of the altar. The high priest inveighs against Dull Care, the archenemy of Beauty. He shouts, “Bring fire”, and the torchbearers (eighteen strong) enter. Then the acolytes quickly seize the coffin, lift it high above their heads, and carry it triumphantly to the pyre in front of the mighty Owl. It seems that Care is about to be consumed by flames.

But not yet. Suddenly there is a great clap of thunder and a rush of wind. Peals of loud, ugly laughter come rining down from a hill above the lake. A dead tree is illuminated in the middle of the hillside, and Care himself bellows forth with a thundering blast:

“Fools! Fools! Fools! When will ye learn that me ye cannot slay? Year after year ye burn me in this Grove, lifting your puny shouts of triumph to the stars. But when again ye turn your feet toward the marketplace, am I not waiting for you, as of old? Fools! Fools! To dream ye conquer Care!”

The high priest is taken aback by this impressive outburst, but not completely humbled. He replies that it is not all a dream, that he and his friends know they will have to face Care when their holiday is over. They are happy that the good fellowship created by the Bohemian Grove is able to banish Care even for a short time. So the high priest tells Care, “We shall burn thee once again this night and in the flames that eat thine effigy we'll read the sign: Midsummer sets us free.”

Dull Care, however, is having none of this. He tells the high priest in no uncertain terms that priestly fires are not going to do him in. “I spit upon your fire”, he roars, and with that there is a great explosion and all the torches are immediately extinguished. The only light remaining comes from the small flame in the Lamp of Fellowship.

Things are clearly at an impasse. Care may win out after all. Ther is only one thing to do: turn to the great Owl, the totem animal of Bohemia, chosen as the group's symbol primarily for its mortal wisdom – and only secondarily for its discreet silence and its nightly prowling. The high priest falls to his knees and lifts his arms toward the shrine. “O thou, great symbol of all mortal wisdom”, he cries, “Owl of Bohemia, we do beseech thee, grant us thy counsel!”

The inspirational music of the “Fire Finale” now begins and an aura of light glows about the Owl's head. The Owl is going to rise to the occasion! After a pause, the sagacious bird finally speaks. No fire, he tells the assembled faithful, can drive out Care if that fire comes from the mundane world, where it is fed by the hates of men. There is only one fire that can overcome the great enemy Care, and that, of course, is the flame which burns in the Lamp of Fellowship on the Altar of Bohemia. “Hail, Fellowship”, he concludes, “and thou, Dull Care, begone!”

With that, Care is on his way out. The light dies from the dead tree. The high priest leaps to his feet and bounds up the steps, snatches a burned-out torch from one of the bearers, and relights it from the flame of the Lamp of Fellowship. Just as quickoy he ignites the funeral pyre and triumphantly hurls the torch into the blaze.

The orchestral music is the background intensifies as the flames leap higher and higher. The chorus sings loudly about Dull Care, archenemy of Beauty, calling on the winds to make merry with his dust. “Hail, Fellowship”, they sing, echoing the Owl. “Begone, Dull Care! Midsummer sets us free!” The wailing voice of Care gives its last gasps, the music gets even louder, and fireworks light the sky and fill the Grove with the reverberations of great explosions. The band, appropriately enough, strikes up “Ther'll Be a Hot Time in the Old Town Tonight”. Care has been banished, but only with a cast of 250 elders, priests, torchbearers, shore patrols, fire tenders, production managers, and woodland voices.

As this climax approaches, some fifty minutes after the march began, the quiet onlookers on the other side of the lake begin to come alive. After all, it is a night for rejoicing. The men begin to shout, to sing, to hug each other, and dance around. They have been freed by their priests and their Owl for some good old-fashioned hell raising. They couldn't be happier if they were back in college and their fraternity had won an intramural football championship.

Now the ceremony is over. The revelers, initiated into the carefree attitude of the Bohemian Grove, break up into small groups as they return to the camps that crowd next to each other in the central area of the Grove. It will be a night of story-telling and drinking for the men of Bohemia as they sit about their campfires or wander from camp to camp, renewing old friendships and making new ones. They will be far away from their responsibilities as the decision makers and opinion molders of corporate America.

~End excerpt from The Bohemian Grove And Other Retreats: A Study In Ruling-Class Cohesiveness by G. William Domhoff.

What Mr. Domhoff left out of his very accurate description of the Cremation of Care ceremony at Bohemian Grove is the fact that the corpse of Care is actually placed upon the pyre and burned as a sacrifice to the Great Owl of Babylon, which the Bohemian's call “Molech” or “Moloch”. This ritual traces back to ancient Babylon. It is a human-sacrifice ritual. The “effigy” of Care is in the form of a human body, and is intended to symbolize a human body. The point which is paramount in my opinion is that this ceremony/ritual, in burning "Care", is actually about escaping the bounds of the individiual's conscience. Consience is where Care comes from, isn't that so? Without a conscience, what's to care about? With a conscience, any world leader might balk at giving the order to bomb a Federal building. I hope the significance of this sinks into every reader's mind with an unforgettable gravity.

There shall be forthcoming from me, here, more on Bohemian Grove and the historic sources of their merriments. The Internet has quite a bit already online. But the truest source of education regarding the Cremation of Care is given us by Alex Jones, who, with two British journalists, bravely snuck into Bohemian Grove in the year 2000 and filmed this entire ceremony with a hidden camera – and got out to share it with the world. The above description by Domhoff is fairly right on the money, but to see this event on film is the best way to grasp the magnitude of the production. Unfortunately, Jones has mixed into the presentation some disquieting “Christian-type” perspectives, judgments, and comments which, imo, detract from the message to some small degree, and which viewers shall have to overlook in order to realize the significance of what transpires in this death-cult ritual. But Jones did capture this entire ceremony on film, and has spread it all over the world. I suggest that it is well worth the time and money to see this.

http://www.infowars.com/bg1.html

For a listing of sample lakeside talks given at Bohemian Grove:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/bohemian_grove_lakeside_talks_2003.html


Okay, enough for now. I'm gonna let this little tidbit settle into the thread here for a little while, before going back over the whole thread from the beginning and making our way back to this point and seeking to tie in all together the various things which this thread now contains. Somehow, I'm wanting to tie together the Bank of International Settlements, the Will and Testament of Cecil Rhodes, Bohemian Grove, and the rest of it, and to show as clearly as possible the inter-connectedness of these things.

At that point, we'll launch into yet even more bizarre and more tightly-guarded secrets of the power elite. After we do that, and in conjunction with some other little side-trips I'd like to invite each reader here to take with me, we'll then be ready to look into four major “terrorist events” on U.S. soil: The 1993 WTC bombing; the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing; the events of 911; and the Anthrax Letters which hit us right after 911. Those four events can be demonstrated to be “operations” funded by, organized by, and executed by “elements within seats and offices of the U.S. Federal government”. But because those “terrorist events” included massive disinformation operations and psy-op programs and propaganda ops, and also because those “terrorist events” were tied directly into the CIA's passion for controlling the world's illegal drug industry, and because those “terrorist events” are also tied to Wall Street money-laundering operations, and also because those “terrorist events” are connected with and related to U.S. Foreign Policy as regards U.S. Military presence in Eurasia's “energy ownership crisis” – because of all that, the only way to present my conspiracy theory is to first provide some historic background, some supplemental information which is absolutely necessary for any accurate perception of this conspiracy.

Meanwhile, let us remember that Alan Greenspan spent his last twenty years as the head of the Federal Reserve as a member at Bohemian Grove.

It is okay to talk about the fact that many U.S. Presidents have been members in Bohemian Grove, have sat lakeside with the crowds there while the Cremation of Care was performed each July. I will soon enough give you an amazing listing of corporate, governmental, economic, communications, industrial, names of members who have willingly participated in this madness. Your comments are invited.

Salute!
Elias

Note: The Bohemian Grove And Other Retreats: A Study In Ruling Class Cohesiveness
by G. William Domhoff; Harper Colophon Books, Harper & Row, Publishers, New York, Evanston, San Francisco, London; copyright 1974 G. William Domhoff; Standard Book Number: 06-090395-3.

Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Roy J. Tellason on April 10, 2006, 02:05:55 am
They will be about fifty to a hundred yards from the altar, which looms skyward thirty to forty feet and reveals itself to be in the form of a huge Owl, whose cement shell is mottled with primeval green mosses.

That would be a "spotted owl",  then?

(Sorry,  I just couldn't resist...   :-)
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 10, 2006, 02:12:08 am
They will be about fifty to a hundred yards from the altar, which looms skyward thirty to forty feet and reveals itself to be in the form of a huge Owl, whose cement shell is mottled with primeval green mosses.

That would be a "spotted owl",  then?

(Sorry,  I just couldn't resist...   :-)


Heh! Yeah, Roy, I'm sure it's a Spotted Owl. And I'm also sure it's not yet on the Endangered Species" list.

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Bill St. Clair on April 10, 2006, 05:56:39 am
off the subject

for the past week I have been experiencing a strange anomoly on my work laptop...

My guess is that this is due to Elias' avatar, which is at http://www.thementalmilitia.org/images/TMM1.gif , at a currently unregistered domain. The proxy server is probably having a problem with it. Try turning off images in your browser.

I looked for the image at archive.org and Google and Yahoo, but couldn't find it.

Elias, do you have a copy of that image somewhere? If so, please upload it to the "Forum Profile Information" section of your profile page (https://erte.hmdnsgroup.com/~tcftalk/clairefiles/index.php?action=profile;u=2), or send it to me and ask me to do it. If you no longer have the image, please pick another one or remove your avatar.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on April 10, 2006, 07:14:06 am
...
My guess is that this is due to Elias' avatar,
...
Bah Dah Boom
Bah Dah Bing
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: F42 on April 10, 2006, 11:16:51 am
The whores of Babylon and Globalist meeting

new secret sect/elite group???... I hadnt heard of yet...

Speakers & Dignitaries at Datamatix Past Events
Members of the ruling family, planners, policy-makers, diplomats, regional representatives of international development, business and information technology organizations have attended our events as displayed below. Our events are well received throughout. Here is a list of business and government leaders who have taken part in Datamatix events.

The general profile of participating delegates at Datamatix events
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The general profile of participating delegates at Datamatix events:

Managing Directors
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Finance and Account Managers
Senior Women Professionals from Government
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Media Professionals
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University Professors
and many more...


Personalities from other parts of the World:

Hon. Mary Robinson, Former President, Republic of Ireland
Hon. Al Gore, Former Us Vice President, USA
Hon. Gerhard Schroeder, Former Chancellor, Germany
Hon. Jose Maria Aznar Lopez, Former Prime Minister, Spain
Dato Sri Anwar Ibrahim, Former Deputy Prime Minister, Malaysia
Governor John H. Sununu, White House Chief of Staff, Former Governor of New Hampshire
Governor Howard Dean, 2004 Democratic Presidential Nominee, Former Governor of Vermont
Mr. Neil Bush, CEO Of Ignite! And Brother of Us President George Bush, USA
Mr. Sandy Berger, Former National Security Advisor to Us President Bill Clinton, USA
Dr. Robert Gates, Former Director of Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), USA
Dr. Oscar Arias Sanchez, Nobel Laureate and Former President of Costa Rica, Costa Rica
Mr. Lawrence J. Ellison, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer Oracle Corporation, USA
Hon. Joschka Fischer, Former Minister for Foreign Affairs, Germany
Dr. Sultana Parvanta, Dir. of Planning, Ministry of Urban Development & Housing, Afghanistan
Ms. Tipper Gore, Public Advocate and Author and Key Advisor to President Bill Clinton, USA
Mr. Gene Amdahl, Former Director, IBM and founder of Amdahl Corporation
Hon. Winston S. Churchill, Author, Journalist, Parliamentarian
Mr. Gil Medina, Former Commerce Secretary, New Jersey
Dr. Simon Moore, E-Government advisor to UK Government, UK
Dr. Akram Yosri, Professor of Information Systems at New York University’s, USA
Dr. Deisi Kusztra, President, WORLD FAMILY ORG, Brazil
Ms. Mervat Tallawy Under Secretary-General of the UN, Executive Secretary, UN - ESCWA
Mr. Ruben Gonzalez, Three-Time Olympian & peak-performance expert, Rubem Associates, USA
Mr. Joe clabby, President, Clabby Analytics - USA
Dr. Abdul Waheed Khan, Asst. Director General, UNESCO
Mr. Joseph Sommerville, Principal, Peak Communication Performance
Mr. Jorge Sebastiao, CISSP, BS7799 LAEP, ISP President and CEO ESGulf - Bahrain
Dr. Bruce Sams, President, OPTIMA BIT Munich - Germany
Mr. Abdulilah Dewachi, Regional Advisor ICT, United Nations - ESCWA - Lebanon
Mr. Mansour Farah, WSIS Team Leader, (ICTD) UN-ESCWA - Lebanon
Mr. Abdel Aziz Aluwaisheg, Minister Plenipotentiary, GCC Council - KSA
Behnam Tabrizi, Professor (Consulting), Stanford University, US
Dr. S. Irfan Ahmad, Director Yahoo! Sales Rep Office , for the M.E, South & Central, Asia
Mr. Mark Carden, VP, Sales-Eu, M.E, Africa, Dynix-Partner with Arabian Advanced Systems
Mr. Ahmed Farahat, Director, (ICTD) United Nations, ESCWA
Dr. Nabil Ali Abdel-Aziz, Expert in Information Strategies, Director, Multi Language System Corp.
Ms. Ginger Luttrell, President LTC, Luttrell Training and Consulting, Inc.
Mr. Ahmed Saber, CEO, ACE Technologies Inc. - Egypt
Mr. Thomas Reda, Infrastructure Solutions Specialist, Microsoft
Mr. Andrew Childs, Digital Tape Storage Specialist, STME Limited - UK
Mr. Mustafa Farhan, Infrastructure Solutions Specialist, Microsoft
Mr. Praveen Kankariya, President & CEO, Impetus Technologies Inc. - USA
Mr. Tarek Niazi, Executive Director, SmartSquare
Mr. Ihab Foudeh, Infrastructure Solutions Specialist, Microsoft
Mr. Neek Alyani, Director, Tehran Business Institute - Finland
Mr. Karim Bentebbal, User Experience Consultant, KSA
Mr. Andrew Calthorpe, Senior Corporate Vice President, STME - UK
Mr. Jalal N Bibi, Associate Business Partner, Accenture Middle East


Personalities from the Middle East:

H.H. Sheikh Ahmed Bin Saeed Al Maktoum, Chairman of Civil Aviation UAE.
H.H. Sheikh Maktoum Bin Mohammed Bin Rashed Al Maktoum, Chairman Dubai Technology, Electronic, Commerce And Media Free Zone
H.E. Matar Al Tayer, Minister of Labor, UAE.
H.E. Khalfan Bin Kharbash, Minister for Finance & Industry, UAE.
H.E. Fawaz Al Alamy Deputy Minister Technical Affairs, Saudi Arabia.
H.E. Adel Khalifa, Former UNDP Resident Coordinator And Un Regional Representative
H.E. Mohd Nakhira Al Dhahary, Minister Of Justice, UAE
H.H. Sheikh Hasher Bin Maktoum, Director General Of Dubai Information Dept
H.H. Sheikh Al Sabah, Kuwait
H.H. Sheikh Al Khalifa, Bahrain
Prince Mohammed Bin Saud, Kingdom Of Saudi Arabia
H.H. Sheikh Khalid Bin Zayed Bin Saqar Al Nahyan, Chairman Of Bin Zayed Group
Dr. Mohammed Al Kamali, Consultant To The Justice Minister, UAE
Dr. Rima Kh. Hunaidi, Assistant Sec. General and Dir. of Regional Bureau of Arab States, UNDP
H.H. Sheikh Fahd Salem Al Ali Al Subah, From The National Guard Of Kuwait
H.H. Shaikh Nawaf Bin Ebrahim Al Khalifa, Under Secretary, MEWA, Bahrain
Mr. Salem Al Shair, Director E-Services, Dubai E-Government
H.H. Sheikh Fahd Bin Mohammed Bin Jabor Al Thani, Chairman, Doha Bank
Dr. Khaled Al Khasraji, Under Secretary, UAE Ministry of Labour.
Mr. Mohammed Al Abbar, Dg, Dubai Economic Department
Sheikha Lubna Al Qasimi, Gm, Tejari.Com
H.E. Mr. Nadir Hadj-Hammou, Undp-Uae Resident Coordinator and Un Representative.
Sheikha Hassa Al Abdulah Al Sabbah
Ms. Amat Al Alim Al Soswa Ambassador - Embassy Of Yemen Hague – Netherlands
Sheikha Hessa Al Khalifa - Undp – United Nations Development Program – Bahrain
Dr. Ghalia Bint Mohammed Bin Hamad Al Thani Hamad Hospital – Doha – Qatar
Ms. Lujaina Darwish Al Za'abi Member Of The Majlis Ashura Council, Oman
Ms. Lubna Olayan Chief Executive Officer, Olayan Financing Company, Saudi Arabia
Ms. Katia Adib Tayar President & Ceo Arabcom
Mr Ibrahim Belselah, General Coordinator, Dubai 2003 - UAE
Haj Saeed Ahmad Lootah, Founder – Chairman, Dubai Islamic Bank
Mr. Saleh Saeed Lootah, Member of the Board of Directors Dubai Islamic Bank
Mr. Abdullah Mohammad Saleh, Managing Director, National Bank Of Dubai
Mr. Abdul Jaleel Y. Darwish, Exe. Director & CEO, HSBC
Mr. Hussain Mohd Al MeezA, M.D , Dubai Islamic Insurance & Reinsurance Co.(Aman)
Mr. Salah Mohd Ameen, Director, Emirates Bank International (Al Tomooh)
Mr. Sulaiman Hamed Al MazRoui, Exe. Member In Higher Committee, Emirates Bank(Al Tomooh)
Mr. Yousef Ahmed Khoory, Manager, Emirates Bank International (Al Tomooh)
Mr. Khalid Abdulla Al Bassam,Deputy Governor, Bahrain Monetary Agency
Mr. Fahad Abdullah Al Rajhi, Deputy General Manager, Al Rajehi
Sheikh Abdulla Salim Bahamdan, Chairman & Managing Director, The National Commercial Bank
Mr. Abdulhadi Ali Shayis, General Manager, The National Commercial Bank
Mr. Abdulrahman Adass, Head Of Corporate Sector, The National Commercial Bank
Mr. Alaa Al Jabri, Head Of International Div., The National Commercial Bank
Dr. Said Al Shaikh, Chief Economist, The National Commercial Bank
Dr. Nahed Taher, Senior Economist, The National Commercial Bank
Mr. Talal Al Naseri, General Manager, Office Of The Chairman & MD, National Commercial Bank
Mr. Mohamad Al Attar, Director, Intl. Center for Biosaline Agriculture-Islamic Development Bank
Mr. Rohit Malhotra, Country Service Head, Vice President Citibank, Citibank Dubai
Dr. Ali Bin Obood, Ministry of State for Cabinet Affairs
Ms. Raja Al Gurg, President, Dubai Businesswomen's Coucil


Here are a list of some government and private sector organizations who have associated with us in the last year.


Associates from the Private Sector:

Microsoft Middle East
Intel Middle East
HP-Hewlett Packard Middle East
IBM Middle East, Egypt And Pakistan (MEEP)
Cisco Systems
Shell Markets (Middle East) Limited
Acer Computer Middle East Limited
Computer Associates Middle East W.L.L
Shell Exploration & Production International (EPM-BR)
Fujitsu Siemens Computers FZ-LIC ITXC Corp.
Ducont.Com
Veritas Software Cooperation Middle East & North Africa
Qatar Airways
Mastercard International
National Bank Of Dubai - Main Office
Datafort E-Hosting Centre
American Express
Citibank
Al Naboodah Group Of Companies
Merrill Lynch International & Co.
Arabian Advanced Systems-Naseej
TCS Express World Wide
V.C.U - Qatar (Virginia Commonwealth University)
Grand Stores
The Khaleej Times
CPI Publishing
Saudi Gazette
Saudi Ports Authority
Saudi Computer Society
Saudi Aramco
Oman Air
Kuwait Investment Co.
Kuwait Airways
Kuwait Oil Company (K.S.C.)
Qatar Petroleum - QP
Sun Microsystems M.E.
ZADCO - ZAKUM Development Co
Thuraya Satellite Telecommunication Co
And click here to see more…

Associates from the government sector:

ESCWA
UNDP Middle East
Arab League
GCC Council
UAE Ministry Of Labour
Naturalization & Residency Admn – Dubai
UAE Ministry Of Justice
Emirates Post
Etisalat
Dubai Port Authority
Dubai Chamber Of Commerce And Industry
Dubai Civil Aviation
Saudi Ministry Of Education & Technical Affairs
Tejari.Com
Dubai Internet City
Dubai Media City
Oman Chamber Of Commerce & Industry
Saudi Telecom
Zayed University
Dubai Technology, Electronic, Commerce And Media Free Zone
Emirates Bank International
Dubai Post
Knowledge Village
Ministry Of Commerce Saudi
Omantel
Dubai Quality Group
Ministry Of Defense
Ministry Of Information
Ministry Of Interior
Ministry Of Finance
Ministry Of Health
Ministry Of Higher Education
Ministry Of Labour & Social Affairs
Ministry Of Petroleum & Mineral Resources
Ministry Of Post, Telegraph & Telephone (MPTT)
And click here to see more…

http://www.datamatixgroup.com/confer...antprofile.asp

Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 10, 2006, 12:11:18 pm
Good find, F42. Hadn't even heard of this project. One of the nice rewards for achievement at CIA is the open door to regional/global financial activities, as we see from your listing that Robert Gates plays with these people. The listing of names is very interesting. And the recent flak over the Ports Deal by UAE must have had repercussions in this group's game. (See link at bottom of this post.) I'd give ten cents to know which of the names on your list have already had cocktails in Crawford, Texas, ya think? :)

Clicking around their site I see they are planning a Summit for CEOs this coming November. Here are the topics they anticipate:

08:30 AM      

Arrival, Delegate Registration

Continental Breakfast, Business Networking, Photo Session and Meeting with the media
09:00 AM     

Welcome Message

Opening Keynote:

Do CEOs have an in-depth view on the evolving Middle East Banking and Finance Industry?

Fast and Effective Bank Transformation - Lessons from Leading Global Banking and Finance CEOs.
09:15 AM     

Global Keynote Speech:

The World Finance Institution Perception on the Way Middle East Banking, Finance and CEOs work and Think”

    * What are the suggestions?
    * Can American Dollar Survive the Onslaught of Euro? Or is it a temporary phenomenon?
    * American view points Vs. European view points
    * Middle East Banking & Finance CEOs: Listen observe and decide

09:45 AM     

Regional Keynote Speech:

The Power of Saudi Arabian Banking and Finance Industry under the King Abdullah Bin Abdul Aziz Leadership

    * How bank’s CEO should build future plans for a piece of action in The Kingdom Of the Saudi Arabia - largest GCC, Middle East and Pan Arab Economy
    * What are the top 10 suggested strategies for the regions banking CEO?

10:30 AM     

With 3 New Government Leadership Transitions in the GCC region, do the Banking and Finance CEOs know about the new priorities and vision for the banking and finance industry?

    * How CEOs should shape the future under the new Government Leadership?
    * As a young regional government leadership takes over, does our banking industry have enough young CEOs to take over the banking leadership?

How CEOs should shape the future of Middle East banking as it actively seeks to join World Trade Organizations (WTO) and sign Free Trade Agreements (FTA)?

    * Reinventing Mindsets & Execution Plans of Today’s banking and Finance Leading CEOs
    * Challenges banks are likely to face due to the FTAs & WTO
    * Regional Issues
    * Global issues

11:00 AM     Coffee, Business Networking, Photo Session and meeting with the media
11:30 AM     

CEO Strategies for Smooth and Successful Organizational Transition while Meeting International Banking Standards

    * The Competition, where does the banking and finance CEOs stand?
    * Are CEOs ready for the transformation to take their business to the next level?
    * How CEOs should identify new and profitable business opportunities?
    * Planning to overcome rising resource costs and inflationary economic trends
    * Impact of regions stock markets on the Banking and Financial Organizations
    * Role of the Banking CEOs in the unhealthy trends in the regional stock markets
    * Why the banks CEO encourage easy lending and credit facilities to stock business rather then focusing and supporting the real economy?

12:15 PM     

Customer Care Strategies for the Banking CEOs & CIOs for Winning over New and Retaining Existing Customers

    * Learn what CEOs / CIOs should do to achieve a successful customer care culture.
    * Have Middle East Banks Violated the Golden Rules of Customer Attraction?
    * Is your bank just on the bank street and nowhere else?
    * Rediscovering the power of the “Branch” – Attracting Customers, Strategic Impact of Retail Branches

12:45 PM     Coffee, Business Networking, Photo Session and Meeting with the Media
01:00 PM     

Future of Islamic Banking and Finance in the new global political arena not in the Global financial arena Where will be those CEO’s who are not educated about the Islamic Banking and Finance?

    * Why conventional banks regard Islamic banks as a threat?
    * Can Islamic banking and Finance Support New Age Economic Needs of a Nation, Organization or an Individual?
    * Can Islamic banking and finance support globalization and today’s international trade requirements?
    * Why conventional banks are suddenly offering Islamic Banking Products and Services?
    * Can this stop the growth of Islamic banking and finance institutions?
    * How Islamic finance companies should differentiate and carve out a niche in the wider, extremely competitive financial services industry?
    * What are major challenges faced by Islamic banks in expanding internationally while remaining true to Islamic principles?
    * How Islamic finance companies should differentiate and carve out a niche in the wider, extremely competitive financial services industry?
    * Human Resources Requirements to run an Islamic Banking, Finance and Insurance

End first day list of Summit activities.
~

All this reminds me of previously-exposed shennigans from that region. They called it: BCCI.  Below is a piece from Senate hearings on BCCI. This starts off sorta slowly, but builds interest sharply several sections  into the material, and is well worth the read.

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1992_rpt/bcci/03hist.htm

Scroll down, if one wishes to skip the India/Pakistani history, to this subtitle:

Abedi and Sheikh Zayed of Abu Dhabi

Abu Dhabi is the largest and wealthiest member of the United Arab Emirates, an oil-rich federation of sheikhdoms with a combined population of under 1.5 million, bordering on Saudi Arabia and Oman, with one of the world's highest standards of living as a result of oil wealth. Like all of the Gulf sheikdoms, Abu Dhabi is unusual among modern states in that its ruler, and the ruling family, owns all the land and natural resources of the country in fee simple absolute, with no distinctions being made among the wealth of the ruler, his family, and the nation itself. As lawyers for Abu Dhabi have described it:

By tradition and historical background of the Trucial States, the ruler of an Emirate owns all of the land of his State. However, he allots land to his subjects individually for their use. Similarly, all the natural resources of the States are also regarded as the personal property of the ruler and his heirs who enjoy complete authority to utilize them as they consdier fit.(15)

As early as 1967 Abedi's high net worth customers included the ruler of Abu Dhabi, Sheikh Zayed bin Sultan Al Nahayan, and his family. The illiterate Sheikh, a formerly impoverished desert Bedouin, was the recently installed head of a newly wealthy oil state who owed his power to a British coup against his brother in 1966. The brother had been deposed for having been unwilling to spend Abu Dhabi oil revenues for any purpose, including easing conditions for members of the British foreign service posted there.

After installing Sheikh Zayed, British officialdom had failed to pay attention to his desire to be taken seriously as an important world political leader. By contrast, Abedi viewed Sheikh Zayed to be a potentially important resource. By one account, the relationship began when Abedi made the decision to fly to Abu Dhabi in 1966 to solicit the right of the United Bank to take deposits from the thousands of Pakistani workers assisting in its modernization. Travelling with one assistant and bringing an oriental rug as a gesture of goodwill, Abedi secured Sheikh Zayed's permission for the United Bank to open a branch in Abu Dhabi.(16) By a second account, Abedi beat out the Habib Bank for taking care of arrangements for Sheikh Zayed's first bustard hunting and falconry vacation in Pakistan, personally waiting patiently outside the Pakistani government guest house while the Sheikh napped, and securing the right to handle the Sheikh's logistics when he awoke.(17)

By 1967, what had begun with Abedi handling the Sheikh's falconry and bustard-hunting trips in Pakistan, and the finances of Pakistani workers in Abu Dhabi, wound up with Abedi running the Sheikh's financial life. As far as Pakistani bankers observing the relationship were concerned, Abedi coordinated everything for Sheikh Zayed, from the building of the Sheikh's palaces in Pakistan, the furnishing of his villas in Morocco and Spain, his medical appointments, to the digging of wells for his homes in the desert.(18) As BCCI officer Abdur Sakhia put it,

Digging a well or two was a minor cost of doing business. Abedi's philosophy was to appeal to every sector. If you were religious people he would help you pray.(19)

From the point of view of BCCI, Sheikh Zayed and his family were ill-equipped to handle the demands of the modern world, and in the early days, dependent on Abedi and Abedi's bank for their every need. Even in the late 1970's, Sheikh Zayed, whose personal tastes were quite simple, would on trips abroad routinely write checks for $100,000 or $200,000 at a time for members of his retinue to spend as they liked, written on the back of a matchbook or a piece of toilet paper. This practice continued until BCCI officers provided the Sheikh with a gold checkbook and insisted that drafts be written on it.(20) As Akbar Bilgrami described his experiences with Zayed:

He would pray or listen to the news. He had a court jester-type person who made him laugh and told him poetry. He was a simple man, simple but shrewd. On a trip to spain which lasted two weeks, his retinue spent $20 million, but he only spend $400 on himself the entire trip for two dogs whose price he negotiated down from $1,000.

He was a simple man who did not spend a lot of money on himself. It is part of Arab culture. The Sheikh is a sort of farther figure. It is hard for him to say no to people, especially because he knows that everybody knows that he has the money. He would carry about a briefcase filled with expensive watches, Cartiers, Rolexes.(21)

Among BCCI officers it was believed that the United Arab Emirates itself owed its creation to Abedi, who came up with the idea as a means of reducing instability among the gulf emirates and increasing the stature of Sheikh Zayed.(22) As Sakhia recalled:

Abedi created the UAE. He planted the idea of the UAE as a federation to Sheikh Zayed. These people had no standing anywhere in the world. They were smugglers and tribesmen. When Sheik Zayed would come for months in Pakistan, not even a policeman would give him any attention. Yet two months after meeting Abedi, Sheikh Zayed finally gets a state visit to Islamabad and meets the President of Pakistan which then became the first country to give him any status. The first embassy of UAE was opened in Pakistan and the second in London, and both were staffed by Abedi's appointments.(23)

In time, Sheikh Zayed would unburden himself to Abedi, and tell Abedi that he felt ignored by westerners, a sentiment he later repeated to Bert Lance, as Lance recalled to Senate investigators, and in testimony on October 24, 1991.

I remember a long conversation I had with Sheikh Zayed at his palace outside of Islamabad. There were three of us there: Bert Lance, Abedi, and Sheikh Zayed. The Sheikh was unhappy that the US hadn't paid any attention to him. The US Ambassador hadn't focused on him. . . He was being reated in a manner that really wasn't befitting the strategic importance or the fiscal importance of the UAE. [Zayed was] concerned about the discrimination as it related to the UAE vis-a-vis other Arab countries . . . receiving more attention and more concern than the UAE was.(24)

It is absolutely clear from BCCI documents that Abedi's relationship with the Sheikh of Abu Dhabi and the Al Nahayan family was the foundation of the establishment of the bank without which BCCI never could have come into existence. Throughout the first critical decade of BCCI's eighteen year existence, as much as 50% of BCCI's overall assets were from Abu Dhabi and the Al Nayhan family, who were earning about $750 million a year in oil revenues in the early 1970's, an amount that rose to nearly $10 billion a year by the end of the decade. Until the formation of a separate affiliate, the Bank of Credit and Commerce Emirates (BCCE), BCCI functioned as the official bank for the Gulf emirates, and handled a substantial portion of Abu Dhabi's oil revenues. And yet from the beginning, there was an oddity about this central relationship: at no time while Abedi was in charge of BCCI did Abu Dhabi hold more than a small share of BCCI's recorded shares. Abu Dhabi appears not to have capitalized BCCI, but instead to have insisted on guaranteed rates of return for the use of its money.

As Akbar Bilgrami, who handled Sheikh Zayed's personal finances in the late 1970's at BCCI, has described it, BCCI provided Zayed with great benefits for what appeared at the time to be very little risk. Zayed deposited substantial funds, amounting to billions of dollars, in BCCI, receiving a guaranteed rate of return on these deposits -- sometimes as high as 1.5 percent over LIBOR, a standard European funds rate. In return for a relationship that was costing him little and indeed, making him profits, Sheikh Zayed received the prestige and benefits of having people all over the world believe it was his bank, without his own funds being at risk.(25) Thus, rather than being a major investor in fact in BCCI, in the early years, Abu Dhabi only agreed to place extremely large sums of money as deposits at the bank, which BCCI used in lieu of capital.

An eyewitness to BCCI's creation described Abedi's elation after Sheikh Zayed agreed to back his new bank in a scene that took place in late 1972, in the late evening, in the living room of a Pakistani banker in Abu Dhabi. Abedi addressed the Pakistanis present in the following terms:

It is truly the grace of God that the prayers of all the U.B.L. [United Bank of Pakistan] employees who had to flee Bangladesh and who had been kept on the U.B.L. payroll by us, have been provided a source of livelihood by God. The Sheikhs have been kind enough to give me their trust and support the new bank that we are creating for these employees.(26)

Abedi used the expression "rizq," or "providence" to describe the deal he had consummated with Sheikh Zayed. But there would have been a number of compelling reasons for Sheikh Zayed to respond to Abedi's offer. Sheikh Zayed was financially unsophisticated and in need of assistance from someone he could trust to handle his finances in a manner that would meet his personal, cultural and political needs. These included the need for secrecy as to the location and size of his wealth, given the political instability within the region; the need to adhere to Islamic law, through structuring transactions so that they could be profitable and safe without the payment of interest in violation of that law. There was, moreover, no one within Abu Dhabi who the Sheikh could trust to provide the adequate secrecy. Indeed, apart from Abedi, Sheikh Zayed may well have known no one inside or outside Abu Dhabi with the apparent sophistication to handle finances of the magnitude that were being generated by the petrodollars. In any case, Abedi had already been attending to all of the Sheikh's personal needs in Pakistan for five years, thereby demonstrating his ability to make the relationship worry-free for the Sheikh.

Abol Helmy, an Iranian BCCI officer, described the relationship as a logical outgrowth of the post-colonial period in the Third World:

The British ruled India, Pakistan, and the Arab countries. Traditionally, the Indians and then the Pakistanis because of the Moslem thread that linked them became the civil servants for the British working in the Gulf. It was a continuation of the policies of the Empire.(27)

As a result of the Abedi-Zayed agreement, Abedi now had essentially unlimited resources to create BCCI. He could now act simultaneously as manager of billions of Sheikh Zayed's personal wealth, as banker to the United Arab Emirates of which Sheikh Zayed was chief of state, and as chairman of a new bank that had guaranteed assets of hundreds of millions of dollars from its inception.(28) Moreover, Sheikh Zayed was accustomed to the use of nominees, as nominee purchases were frequently employed whenever he wished to buy anything to avoid the price increasing if the Sheikh's name had been mentioned as part of the negotiations.(29)

One consequence of this arrangement, however, was that Abedi's success was overly dependent on his relationship with Abu Dhabi and its assets. He was managing the Sheikh's resources, he had use of them, and if he did not meet the Sheikh's needs, he could lose everything. Recognizing this dependence, Abedi made it a practice to insure that BCCI would provide whatever the Sheikh required, whenever the Sheikh or his family wanted it. As BCCI records demonstrate, payments, often characterized as loans, were made to members of the Abu Dhabi royal family on an as-needed basis by BCCI, without any regard as to whether these same resources were also being committed elsewhere. With Abedi relying on the Sheikh's resources to finance his rapid expansion, BCCI's finances quickly became so intermingled with the finances of Abu Dhabi that it was difficult even for BCCI insiders to determine where one left off and the other began.

End teaser from US Senate report on BCCI.
~

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Docliberty on April 10, 2006, 04:51:48 pm
General, you might find this interesting.

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0%2C1249%2C635198488%2C00.html
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Not a TMM member on April 10, 2006, 05:33:58 pm
Hmm
I just spent about 15 minutes writing a reply to the post on that article and it said I submitted it already and now it seems to have vanished.
Great!
I'll sum up.
Sulfur would not make the Tmite hotter necessarily but Tmite is a bitch to light unless you have an agent.
Office furniture and jet fuel alone wouldn't touch off the aluminum mixture but it would light the sulfur and that in turn excites the Tmite.
Hard to get it into the building without notice though.  But it would have caused the kind of structural failure we saw.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on April 10, 2006, 05:47:14 pm
Hmm
I just spent about 15 minutes writing a reply to the post on that article and it said I submitted it already and now it seems to have vanished.
Great!
I'll sum up.
Sulfur would not make the Tmite hotter necessarily but Tmite is a bitch to light unless you have an agent.
Office furniture and jet fuel alone wouldn't touch off the aluminum mixture but it would light the sulfur and that in turn excites the Tmite.
Hard to get it into the building without notice though.  But it would have caused the kind of structural failure we saw.


A couple comments / thoughts. Not to take this thread too far afoot, I guess that might require a trip to "Hijack this Thread."  :rolleyes:

First. Thermite would account for the fact that some who were on the scene heard no explosions.

b. Hey, DocLiberty, that sent me off on a quest which took me to the Wayback Machine. I remembered an article by Tom Spooner in Doing Freedom and went off to peruse it and it I had to travel back in time (http://web.archive.org/web/20050207081842/www.doingfreedom.com/gen/1000/ht.thoroughlythermite.html) to find it.

Quote
Thoroughly Thermite
Tom Spooner

Thermite is such interesting stuff. It has myriad uses -- in armor piercing incendiary ammunition, to weld railroad track and building grounding systems, as a thermal decoy for heatseeking missiles... I've met one person who even uses the stuff to start his campfires; that sounds like overkill to me, but I can't deny its effectiveness. Basically, for any job that calls for intense, precisely targeted heat, thermite is the stuff.

So what is this remarkable material? It's quite simple: Powdered iron oxide (black) and powdered aluminum. Mix them in equal amounts -- by volume or weight, it doesn't particularly matter, unless you happen to be striving for peak efficiency. Thermite is forgiving stuff, and will work fairly well no matter how mixed.

Obtaining the iron oxide isn't too difficult. One technique involves stuffing steel wool into a pipe and igniting it; you'll need a forced air draft to keep it going. Take a look at that piece of disinformation, the Army Improvised Munitions Handbook; the steel wool trick seems to be one of the workable gimmicks. (Apply anything from that book with extreme caution -- some of what it says is so far wrong that you will kill yourself if you actually try certain procedures.)

Aluminum can be a little harder to come by. It can be had at good paint stores, but you probably don't want to charge it up on your credit card; not if you're reading this anyway. It can also be mail ordered from many chemical and laboratory supply houses. If you go that route, be prepared to burn, no pun intended (oh, okay... Yes, it was intended), that mail drop; don't use that address again. And yes, you can order iron oxide the same way.

If you're short of FRNs, or know someone else who is, filing down aluminum plates and bar stock is an option. Tedious, but it can be done.

So, you have your iron oxide, you have the aluminum powder. You've mixed together equal proportions. Now what?

Now you fire it off.

Easier said than done. If you got ahead of me, you may have noticed that you can't set the stuff afire with a simple match. Thermite does burn hot; but it also takes a good bit of heat to get it going. Powdered magnesium works. (You're familiar with those emergency firestarter blocks? And someone has been seen at readiness expos selling pound jars of magnesium powder; snap it up if you see any.) So does magnesium ribbon, of course. But the ribbon has its own ignition difficulties. The best trick I've seen to date is simple sparklers. Yes, those chemical dipped wires which the older kids detest in favor of more spectacular pyrotechnics.

Their loss. Sparklers will consistently ignite thermite. And while you can light a sparkler with a match, it's a little easier to light a length of cannon fuse, which will in turn fire off the sparkler, which then acts as a fuse for the incendiary mix. (Why do I have cannon fuse? As Earl said in Tremors, "My cannon.") For manual operation, tape a piece of fuse to a sparkler, and put a match to it. For unattended, or timed operation, fire the fuse with a model rocket motor igniter. The "solar" (or whatever they're called these days) can be activated with two AA batteries. Such an electrically operated system can easily incorporate a clock as a timer.

You have your thermite, you can set it off. Now what to do with it...

A soda can full of thermite, set on the hood of a police car (or other statist thugmobile) will do nasty things to the engine.

A similar charge placed on a building transformer or electrical switch box ought to black out the building in question.

Thermite is also a quick, if unsubtle, way of dealing with locks (when bolt cutters just won't do) or locked doors. Even some fire-rated safety boxes shudder at the thought of thermite. Lost your keys?

Someone suggested a small charge of thermite on a hard disk drive as a way of ensuring that there won't be enough magnetic platter left to read old, erased data from. I see possibilities there -- an electrically activated charge, with a relay on the computer bus. If the password isn't typed in on schedule, the thermite ends all your privacy concerns.

Thermite can be delivered in many ways. The simplest is a flammable container to hold the loose powder (or tightly packed powder; the more the merrier sometimes). If you wish to direct the molten mass to a specific target (i.e., down onto switch gear or an engine block), consider a terra cotta flower pot with a drain hole in the bottom. The pot will never be the same afterwards, but neither will what you wanted to torch..

If you want to destroy incriminating evidence (Doesn't it suck that being free is a crime these days? Okay, end of short rant.), you might want to dig a small hole to contain your papers, paper shotgun, tools, et cetera, and mix in some thermite with the goodies. Fire it off, and the feds won't be recovering anything very useful.

If API ammo is your thing, sorry. I don't know how that ignites. If anyone is interested, I'll see what I can come up with. In theory, at least. I'm not sure I want to play around with an improvised API munition in my guns. Especially not with my finger on the trigger.

There is a company that sells specialty ammunition - shotshells with flechettes, ball and chains, compressed powdered lead slugs, lots of tracers, and a hollow 12 gauge slug meant to be filled with pistol powder and capped with a shotshell primer. So equipped, it supposedly can blow large holes in car doors. But you might try filling one with thermite, topping the cavity off with the powdered material from a sparkler, and then capping it with the primer. This company seems to change its name on a nearly daily basis -- they were Blammo Ammo when I first encountered them. And not too long ago, they had a website at http://www.funammo.com. These "blockbuster" slugs can also occasionally be found at gun stores.

I've also heard a thermite paste suggested. I've tried the trick using petroleum jelly, but it looks like the vaporizing petroleum carries off too much heat for the thermite to catch. If anyone has ideas along these lines, I'm open to suggestions.

Another possibility is an incendiary block. I first read of such a thing made of a 50:50 mix of plaster of paris and powdered aluminum. Supposedly a block cast of this can burn at several thousand degrees, and might be useful for controlled burns. Like buildings. If this works, I haven't managed it. I have had no luck in igniting such a block, even using thermite as an igniter. Until someone shows me otherwise, I'll consider this one just another example of Internet BS.

But back to the point. An incendiary block that does work is also thermite based. I use a mix of thermite and plaster of paris. There should only be enough plaster to make the mass hold together; a ratio of 4 to 1, thermite to plaster, is the minimum. Any more plaster than that and the stuff doesn't want to ignite. The sparkler igniter can be conveniently molded into the block. If electrically detonated, a creative (destructive?) individual might cast the entire works within the block.

Moldable thermite opens up other possibilities: Rings or "horseshoes" to be hung on doorknobs and locks. Incendiary statuary, and other innocuous-seeming devices. Sectioned blocks to be placed on tower guylines, to bring down said tower. The imagination boggles. Or mine does. I leave additional musings to your imagination.


(c) 2000
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 11, 2006, 05:10:07 am
(My word program says this is about eleven pages, so I'll split it into two posts.)

Miscellaneous Items Of Interest: 911

As Americus has intimated, I now note that several people here are anxious to get to the “good stuff”. However, y'all are getting way ahead of me, so I'm serving notice that after indulging with the following, it is my intention to return to my more methodical approach, which includes historic precedent and shall ultimately help the patient reader by granting a more fully-informed perspective from which to view the data regarding what happened to us on 911. I do, however, greatly appreciate everyone's interest in this topic. :)

Bill, I hope I got my profile stuff ironed out. Problem was caused by having pointed my avatar-source to TMM, which went down and crashed my avatar function here. I've uploaded from local file here, and it seems to be working okay now. Thanks. Btw, the snail mail I told you I'd send this past Monday did not go out from my post office here until Friday, and at that they told me it may take seven or more days.

(Aside to MTB) The snail mail you're expecting from me is still here, un-mailed, for reasons you'll see, (and be happy about I trust), soon. Sorry for the delay.

Docliberty, thank you so much for that link.

Aside to others: I've not answered or replied to any personal messages in some days. No minutes with which to honor by composing a decent reply. The replies will come, but I'm not sure when. Thank you each for sending the messages.

Now – to all you rascals who are being impatient to get down to the nitty-gritty of 911 and related “terror events on US soil” and the “whodunnit” part of this, to honor your impatience I'll give you the following which I just sent to Boston T. Party this evening, (days late, as expected, lol.). After I drop this handful off here on the thread, I certainly hope I'll get back to a summation of preceding materials already on the thread, so that we can go forward toward the “good stuff” more rapidly. But as Boston has shown me, there is a value in taking one's time and establishing the basics prior to solving the case, lol. As far as I'm concerned, we might as well go arrest the damned government right now, starting with Dick Cheney – but it might benefit our cause if we took time to get our story straight first, ya think? :)

~

Awright – there are more and more credible people coming out of the woodworks now, and a momentum on the side of truth is gaining and building, thanks to people who have impeccable standing in our society and are willing to speak out at a time in which doing so brands anyone a “conspiracy theory nutcase” and worse. I know that I've been branded as being “gullible” and other unsavory descriptives, and in at least one case that “brand” has caused someone to think I'm nothing more than a long-winded lone-nut or sorts. I will readily admit that what I know is so bizarre when compared to the “normal American view on 911” that most Americans would readily condemn me as being insane. And it's always a question in my own mind, arising from what I know and cannot “unknow”. I'd just like to say that I would prefer to never have seen a need to look into the dark corners of the National Security State which has replaced the America we all knew and loved, but only if it proved to be that my suspicions were unfounded and false. As it stands at this time, however, just what I think has happened regarding criminality in the highest seats of government power (and above that, even), is strikingly true to anyone who is willing to wade through the history that necessarily reveals it. That is the purpose of this thread, imo.

So let's roll. First, there is “thermite”, and there is “thermate”, and then there is something called “superthermite”. Keep that in mind as you read over what I shipped off to Boston T. Party tonight.

~

Steven Jones – you've already got his peer-reviewed paper, as used to start your thread in Conspiracy Corner. He has, however, this past Friday, issued another statement, which you may obtain here:

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0%2C1249%2C635198488%2C00.html

From that site:
Physicist says heat substance felled WTC
Extremely hot fires caused structures to fail, BYU expert says

By Suzanne Dean
For the Deseret Morning News
      EPHRAIM — A Brigham Young University physicist said he now believes an incendiary substance called thermite, bolstered by sulfur, was used to generate exceptionally hot fires at the World Trade Center on 9/11, causing the structural steel to fail and the buildings to collapse.

      "It looks like thermite with sulfur added, which really is a very clever idea," Steven Jones, professor of physics at BYU, told a meeting of the Utah Academy of Science, Arts and Letters at Snow College Friday.

      The government requires standard explosives to contain tag elements enabling them to be traced back to their manufacturers. But no tags are required in aluminum and iron oxide, the materials used to make thermite, he said. Nor, he said, are tags required in sulfur.

      Jones is co-chairman, with James H. Fetzer, a distinguished professor of philosophy at the University of Minnesota of Scholars for 9/11 Truth, a group of college faculty members who believe conspirators other than pilots of the planes were directly involved in bringing down New York's Trade Towers.

The group, which Jones said has 200 members, maintains a Web site at www.st911.org. A 40-page paper by Jones, along with other peer-reviewed and non-reviewed academic papers, are posted on the site.

      Last year, Jones presented various arguments for his theory that explosives or incendiary devices were planted in the Trade Towers, and in WTC 7, a smaller building in the Trade Center complex, and that those materials, not planes crashing into the buildings, caused the buildings to collapse.

      At that time, he mentioned thermite as the possible explosive or incendiary agent. But Friday, he said he is increasingly convinced that thermite and sulfur were the root causes of the 9/11 disaster.

      He told college professors and graduate students from throughout Utah gathered for the academy meeting that while almost no fire, even one ignited by jet fuel, can cause structural steel to fail, the combination of thermite and sulfur "slices through steel like a hot knife through butter."

~

Below please find one letter from Site Manager, Environmental Health Laboratories, a Division of Underwriters Laboratories. Links included. UL is certifier of the steel used in WTC construction.
~
"The buildings should have easily withstood the thermal stress caused by pools of burning jet fuel."
 
From Kevin R. Ryan
Site Manager of the Environmental Health Laboratories
South Bend, Indiana

(Company site - www.ehl.cc)
 
A division of Underwriters Laboratories, Inc.
(Company site - www.ul.com)
 
To Frank Gayle
Deputy Chief of the Metallurgy Division
Material Science and Engineering Laboratory
National Institute of Standards and Technology
NIST and the World Trade Center at wtc.nist.gov
Dr. Gayle biography wtc.nist.gov/pi/wtc_profiles.asp?lastname=gayle
 
From: Kevin R Ryan/SBN/ULI
To: frank.gayle@nist.gov
Date: 11/11/2004
 
Dr. Gayle,
 
Having recently reviewed your team's report of 10/19/04, I felt the need to contact you directly.
 
As I'm sure you know, the company I work for certified the steel components used in the construction of the WTC buildings. In requesting information from both our CEO and Fire Protection business manager last year, I learned that they did not agree on the essential aspects of the story, except for one thing - that the samples we certified met all requirements. They suggested we all be patient and understand that UL was working with your team, and that tests would continue through this year. I'm aware of UL's attempts to help, including performing tests on models of the floor assemblies. But the results of these tests appear to indicate that the buildings should have easily withstood the thermal stress caused by pools of burning jet fuel.
 
There continues to be a number of "experts" making public claims about how the WTC buildings fell. One such person, Dr. Hyman Brown from the WTC construction crew, claims that the buildings collapsed due to fires at 2000F melting the steel (1). He states "What caused the building to collapse is the airplane fuel burning at 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit. The steel in that five-floor area melts." Additionally, the newspaper that quotes him says "Just-released preliminary findings from a National Institute of Standards and Technology study of the World Trade Center collapse support Brown's theory."
 
We know that the steel components were certified to ASTM E119. The time temperature curves for this standard require the samples to be exposed to temperatures around 2000F for several hours. And as we all agree, the steel applied met those specifications. Additionally, I think we can all agree that even un-fireproofed steel will not melt until reaching red-hot temperatures of nearly 3000F (2). Why Dr. Brown would imply that 2000F would melt the high-grade steel used in those buildings makes no sense at all.
 
The results of your recently published metallurgical tests seem to clear things up (3), and support your team's August 2003 update as detailed by the Associated Press (4), in which you were ready to "rule out weak steel as a contributing factor in the collapse". The evaluation of paint deformation and spheroidization seem very straightforward, and you noted that the samples available were adequate for the investigation. Your comments suggest that the steel was probably exposed to temperatures of only about 500F (250C), which is what one might expect from a thermodynamic analysis of the situation.
 
However the summary of the new NIST report seems to ignore your findings, as it suggests that these low temperatures caused exposed bits of the building's steel core to "soften and buckle"(5). Additionally this summary states that the perimeter columns softened, yet your findings make clear that "most perimeter panels (157 of 160) saw no temperature above 250C". To soften steel for the purposes of forging, normally temperatures need to be above 1100C (6). However, this new summary report suggests that much lower temperatures were be able to not only soften the steel in a matter of minutes, but lead to rapid structural collapse.


This story just does not add up. If steel from those buildings did soften or melt, I?m sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind, let alone the briefly burning fires in those towers. That fact should be of great concern to all Americans. Alternatively, the contention that this steel did fail at temperatures around 250C suggests that the majority of deaths on 9/11 were due to a safety-related failure. That suggestion should be of great concern to my company.
 
There is no question that the events of 9/11 are the emotional driving force behind the War on Terror. And the issue of the WTC collapse is at the crux of the story of 9/11. My feeling is that your metallurgical tests are at the crux of the crux of the crux. Either you can make sense of what really happened to those buildings, and communicate this quickly, or we all face the same destruction and despair that come from global decisions based on disinformation and "chatter".
 
Thanks for your efforts to determine what happened on that day. You may know that there are a number of other current and former government employees that have risked a great deal to help us to know the truth. I've copied one of these people on this message as a sign of respect and support. I believe your work could also be a nucleus of fact around which the truth, and thereby global peace and justice, can grow again. Please do what you can to quickly eliminate the confusion regarding the ability of jet fuel fires to soften or melt structural steel.
 
1. http://www.boulderweekly.com/archive/102104/coverstory.html
 
2. CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, 61st edition, pg D-187
 
3. http://wtc.nist.gov/media/P3MechanicalandMetAnalysisofSteel.pdf
 
4. http://www.voicesofsept11.org/archive/911ic/082703.php
 
5. http://wtc.nist.gov/media/NCSTACWTCStatusFINAL101904WEB2.pdf (pg 11)
 
6. http://www.forging.org/FIERF/pdf/ffaaMacSleyne.pdf
 
Kevin Ryan
Site Manager
Environmental Health Laboratories
 
[Note: The letter is followed in the e-mail by a standard UL message footer]
 
-- For more information about UL, its Marks, and its services for EMC, quality registrations and product certifications for global markets, please access our web sites at http://www.ul.com and http://www.ulc.ca, or contact your local sales representative.

End letter

continued next post
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 11, 2006, 05:40:38 am
~

Next: Jeff King, MIT Engineer
You can see video of his appearance at Jimmy Walter's  film, “Confronting The Evidence”, which I'll be glad to mail you if you want the whole video. This is just the section by Jeff King.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1822764959599063248


~
Next:
Retired USAF Colonel questions government story on 911.

From here:
http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/ArticlesNelson28Feb2006.html

911 and the Precautionary Principle: Aircraft Parts as a Clue to their Identity
by George Nelson 
Colonel, USAF (ret.)


The precautionary principle is based on the fact it is impossible to prove a false claim. Failure to prove a claim does not automatically make it false, but caution is called for, especially in the case of a world-changing event like the alleged terror attacks of September 11, 2001. The Bush administration has provided no public evidence to support its claim that the terror attacks were the work of Muslim extremists or even that the aircraft that struck their respective targets on September 11 were as advertised. As I will show below, it would be a simple matter to confirm that they were - if they were. Until such proof is forthcoming, the opposite claim must be kept in mind as a precaution against rushing to judgment: the 911 hijackings were part of a black operation carried out with the cooperation of elements in our government.

In July 1965 I had just been commissioned as a Second Lieutenant in the U. S. Air Force after taking a solemn oath that I would protect and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, and that I would bear true faith and allegiance to the same. I took that oath very seriously. It was my constant companion throughout a thirty-year military career in the field of aircraft maintenance.

As an additional duty, aircraft maintenance officers are occasionally tasked as members of aircraft accident investigation boards and my personal experience was no exception. In 1989 I graduated from the Aircraft Mishap Investigation Course at the Institute of Safety and Systems Management at the University of Southern California. In addition to my direct participation as an aircraft accident investigator, I reviewed countless aircraft accident investigation reports for thoroughness and comprehensive conclusions for the Inspector General, HQ Pacific Air Forces during the height of the Vietnam conflict.

In all my years of direct and indirect participation, I never witnessed nor even heard of an aircraft loss, where the wreckage was accessible, that prevented investigators from finding enough hard evidence to positively identify the make, model, and specific registration number of the aircraft -- and in most cases the precise cause of the accident. This is because every military and civilian passenger-carrying aircraft have many parts that are identified for safety of flight. That is, if any of the parts were to fail at any time during a flight, the failure would likely result in the catastrophic loss of aircraft and passengers. Consequently, these parts are individually controlled by a distinctive serial number and tracked by a records section of the maintenance operation and by another section called plans and scheduling.

Following a certain number of flying hours or, in the case of landing gears, a certain number of takeoff-and-landing cycles, these critical parts are required to be changed, overhauled or inspected by specialist mechanics. When these parts are installed, their serial numbers are married to the aircraft registration numbers in the aircraft records and the plans and scheduling section will notify maintenance specialists when the parts must be replaced. If the parts are not replaced within specified time or cycle limits, the airplane will normally be grounded until the maintenance action is completed. Most of these time-change parts, whether hydraulic flight surface actuators , pumps, landing gears, engines or engine components, are virtually indestructible. It would be impossible for an ordinary fire resulting from an airplane crash to destroy or obliterate all of those critical time-change parts or their serial numbers. I repeat, impossible.

Considering the catastrophic incidents of September 11 2001, certain troubling but irrefutable conclusions must be drawn from the known facts. I get no personal pleasure or satisfaction from reporting my own assessment of these facts. 

United Airlines Flight 93

This flight was reported by the federal government to be a Boeing 757 aircraft, registration number N591UA, carrying 45 persons, including four Arab hijackers who had taken control of the aircraft, crashing the plane in a Pennsylvania farm field.
Aerial photos of the alleged crash site were made available to the general public. They show a significant hole in the ground, but private investigators were not allowed to come anywhere near the crash site. If an aircraft crash caused the hole in the ground, there would have literally hundreds of serially-controlled time-change parts within the hole that would have proved beyond any shadow of doubt the precise tail-number or identity of the aircraft. However, the government has not produced any hard evidence that would prove beyond a doubt that the specifically alleged aircraft crashed at that site. On the contrary, it has been reported that the aircraft, registry number N591UA, is still in operation.

American Airlines Flight 11

This flight was reported by the government to be a Boeing 767, registration number N334AA, carrying 92 people, including five Arabs who had hijacked the plane. This plane was reported to have crashed into the north tower of the WTC complex of buildings.
Again, the government would have no trouble proving its case if only a few of the hundreds of serially controlled parts had been collected to positively identify the aircraft. A Boeing 767 landing gear or just one engine would have been easy to find and identify.
 
United Airlines Flight 175

This flight was reported to be a Boeing 767, registration number N612UA, carrying 65 people, including the crew and five hijackers. It reportedly flew into the south tower of the WTC.

Once more, the government has yet to produce one serially controlled part from the crash site that would have dispelled any questions as to the identity of the specific airplane.

American Airlines Flight 77

This was reported to be a Boeing 757, registration number N644AA, carrying 64 people, including the flight crew and five hijackers. This aircraft, with a 125-foot wingspan, was reported to have crashed into the Pentagon, leaving an entry hole no more than 65 feet wide.

Following cool-down of the resulting fire, this crash site would have been very easy to collect enough time-change equipment within 15 minutes to positively identify the aircraft registry. There was apparently some aerospace type of equipment found at the site but no attempt was made to produce serial numbers or to identify the specific parts found. Some of the equipment removed from the building was actually hidden from public view.

Conclusion

The government alleges that four wide-body airliners crashed on the morning of September 11 2001, resulting in the deaths of more than 3,000 human beings, yet not one piece of hard aircraft evidence has been produced in an attempt to positively identify any of the four aircraft. On the contrary, it seems only that all potential evidence was deliberately kept hidden from public view. The hard evidence would have included hundreds of critical time-change aircraft items, plus security videotapes that were confiscated by the FBI immediately following each tragic episode.

With all the evidence readily available at the Pentagon crash site, any unbiased rational investigator could only conclude that a Boeing 757 did not fly into the Pentagon as alleged. Similarly, with all the evidence available at the Pennsylvania crash site, it was most doubtful that a passenger airliner caused the obvious hole in the ground and certainly not the Boeing 757 as alleged. Regarding the planes that allegedly flew into the WTC towers, it is only just possible that heavy aircraft were involved in each incident, but no evidence has been produced that would add credence to the government's theoretical version of what actually caused the total destruction of the buildings, let alone proving the identity of the aircraft. That is the problem with the government's 911 story. It is time to apply the precautionary principle.

As painful and heartbreaking as was the loss of innocent lives and the lingering health problems of thousands more, a most troublesome and nightmarish probability remains that so many Americans appear to be involved in the most heinous conspiracy in our country's history.

~End article by Retired USAF Colonel George Nelson

Another article by Colonel Nelson, dated  March 13 2006,   is here:
http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/ArticlesNelson13March2006.html

Teasers therefrom:
News Conference Statement
by George Nelson, Colonel, USAF (ret.)
Scholars for 9/11 Truth
Alexandria VA, 13 March 2006 


I'm George Nelson; I served four years of enlisted service, and 30 additional years as a commissioned officer in the Air Force---- Please, let me begin by saying, that I get no pleasure or personal satisfaction whatsoever from speaking out in opposition to the US government's official conclusions, and the 911 Commission's official report of the tragedy that occurred on September 11th, 2001. 
I'm a trained aircraft accident investigator. I completed the University of Southern California's accident investigation course in 1989. I was an aircraft maintenance manager throughout my military career and was assigned additional duties as a member of accident investigations for the Air Force. In every case of an aircraft loss, an accident investigation was always conducted and a report was issued through command channels, and it made no difference if the loss was due to an obvious accident or if it had been shot down by enemy fire. An investigation was always conducted, and a report was always filed, even if the plane was under 5,000 feet of water and not recoverable. 

In the case of all four reported aircraft losses on 9-11, each one was reported to have been carrying commercial passengers aboard scheduled commercial airliners. Federal Aviation regulations in Part 121, governs the operations of all scheduled airlines that operate inside the United States, including foreign airlines, which transit through our airports in commercial operations. In the case of each aircraft loss that occurred on 9-11, the regulations are very clear and unambiguous— investigations were required, and the reports would have covered the loss circumstances in excruciating detail, including all collateral damage incurred. Especially in the cases of such horrendous loss of life, collection of physical evidence would have been paramount in determining the precise causes of each loss. Scientific and reasoned deductions are permitted only after an exhaustive search and analysis of physical evidence has been completed. Hundreds of parts from each of those four aircraft are critical for safety of flight, and as such, must be meticulously controlled by only one-of-a-kind, dedicated, serial numbers. These parts are required by FAA regulations to be tracked and removed and replaced at a designated number of flying hours or a number of actual cycles. Just like the toughness of black boxes, these components are virtually indestructible and relatively easy to find among the crash wreckage. Each of the aircraft would have two engines that are nine feet in diameter, and would have had many of the critical, serialized parts installed. Several sets of massive landing gears would have been easy to find and identify, and each of these parts would have been linked to one, and only one aircraft in the world. The aircraft parts from the two World Trade Center buildings, the Pentagon and the hole in the ground at Shanksville, Pennsylvania would have disclosed the specific identity of each aircraft, and those parts did not “vaporize” as some Pentagon spokespersons have reported. The parts may have since “vaporized” but not during the reported crashes. The well-known “Black Boxes” were reported to have been found, but were immediately confiscated and seem to have since, disappeared. 
Independent news photographers and investigators at Shanksville, Pennsylvania were kept far away from the reported aircraft crash site by security cordons and guards. The public could only view the crash site by an aerial photo. The photo shows an impact area only 20 feet long by 10 feet wide, and the photo shows no sign of crash wreckage inside the small area. Most small fighter planes create larger holes than that, and again, no aircraft accident report has been made public. This only serves to heighten the public's growing skepticism of the 911 Commission report. 

And then we have the reported crash of a Boeing 757 with a 125-foot wingspan that was reported to have crashed into the Pentagon. It made a 16-foot diameter hole in the building at ground floor, and penetrated three inner rings of the building and left an almost perfect circular hole as it exited the third inner ring of the building. If an aluminum Boeing 757 had struck that fortified building, there would have been more aluminum on the ground outside than what went inside, yet there was little visible evidence of an airplane crash on the outside. What physical evidence that could have been of some value, was immediately carted away under cover. And once again, there's the annoying problem of the missing Black Boxes. 

In the interest of time, I'm going to relate just one more piece of key evidence. The aircraft that was reported in the government's official story to have crashed into the south tower was United Airlines, Flight 175 carrying 65 passengers, including the crew and five highjackers. One of the television news cameras captured the Boeing 767, just as it was banking into a left turn, seconds before striking the building. Underneath the fuselage, installed across the starboard aircraft wing root, is a visible, large piece of equipment that most viewers have called a “Pod”. Many have speculated what purpose the “Pod” might have served on a passenger carrying, scheduled airliner, but such speculation is pointless at the present time. The fact is, that such extraneous equipment would have never have been installed on a Part 121, scheduled airliner in the first place. Every piece of equipment proposed for use on an aircraft after its production must be issued a Supplemental Type Certificate by the FAA prior to installation. No record of an STC was found that would authorize such external equipment to be used on a Part 121, Boeing 767 airliner. This leads to a more disturbing speculation, that the airplane seen hitting the south tower was not UAL flight 175, but a plane that had been substituted for flight 175. 

The National Transportation Safety Board decides which of three organizations will take the lead role in Part 121 accident investigations. Sometimes the NTSB will assume the lead, and in some cases they will assign lead responsibility to the FAA, but most always if criminal foul play is suspected, the lead role will be assigned to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, with the technical assistance of both the FAA and NTSB. It's fair to say, in this case that the NTSB suspected criminal foul play on 9-11, so which agency had primary responsibility for the investigations and required reporting? Where are the reports? Where is the physical evidence to back up those reports? Does anyone recall TWA Flight 800 that was bound from the US to Paris about four years ago? The FBI was assigned the lead roll, suggesting that foul play was suspected, and the FBI gave almost daily reports on the evening news channels, but ultimately the FBI's conclusion was, that a spark in one of the internal fuel tanks caused the fatal explosion. At least we all knew in that case, there was an investigation conducted, such as it was.
 
I could go on and on with the many weaknesses in the 9-11 Commission's report, but there's little reason to belabor the details, so I'd like to offer just two or three websites where anyone who's the least bit interested can find most every weakness in the 9-11 Commission report. In these few minutes we've just begun to scratch the surface. For further information, we suggest you research the following websites for yourself, but there are many more credible sources available. Check out--- www.st911.org; www.physics911.net or the website edited by the couple sitting to my left; www.wingtv.net/.
 
I'm frequently asked by people hearing me speak about9-11, “Why in the world are you speaking out about this tragedy? Doesn't it worry you?” I answer the same way every time I'm asked----- “Because I'm a man with a conscience. You can see by my age that I must have grand children, and I do. I'm about to turn this country that I deeply love, over to my children and my grand children. And as I look around, I don't like what I see happening to it. 

Thanks for listening.

~End article/statement to press by Colonel Nelson

Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 11, 2006, 05:41:57 am
(Shoot! It wouldn't fit into two posts, so here's the third and final installment)

Related Science:

From here:
http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/01/wo/wo_gartner012105.asp?p=1

January 21, 2005
Military Reloads with Nanotech

Smaller. Cheaper. Nastier. Those are the guiding principles behind the military's latest bombs. The secret ingredient: nanotechnology that makes for a bigger boom.
By John Gartner

Nanotechnology is grabbing headlines for its potential in advancing the life sciences and computing research, but the Department of Defense (DoD) found another use: a new class of weaponry that uses energy-packed nanometals to create powerful, compact bombs.

With funding from the U.S. government, Sandia National Laboratories, the Los Alamos National Laboratory, and the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory are researching how to manipulate the flow of energy within and between molecules, a field known as nanoenergentics, which enables building more lethal weapons such as "cave-buster bombs" that have several times the detonation force of conventional bombs such as the "daisy cutter" or MOAB (mother of all bombs).

Researchers can greatly increase the power of weapons by adding materials known as superthermites that combine nanometals such as nanoaluminum with metal oxides such as iron oxide, according to Steven Son, a project leader in the Explosives Science and Technology group at Los Alamos.

"The advantage (of using nanometals) is in how fast you can get their energy out," Son says.

Son says that the chemical reactions of superthermites are faster and therefore release greater amounts of energy more rapidly.
"Superthermites can increase the (chemical) reaction time by a thousand times," Son says, resulting in a very rapid reactive wave.
Son, who has been working on nanoenergetics for more than three years, says that scientists can engineer nanoaluminum powders with different particle sizes to vary the energy release rates. This enables the material to be used in many applications, including underwater explosive devices, primers for igniting firearms, and as fuel propellants for rockets.

However, researchers aren't permitted to discuss what practical military applications may come from this research.
Nanoaluminum is more chemically reactive because there are more atoms on the surface area than standard aluminum, according to Douglas Carpenter, the chief scientific officer at nanometals company Quantumsphere.

"Standard aluminum covers just one-tenth of one percent of the surface area (with atoms), versus fifty percent for nanoaluminum," Carpenter says.

Carpenter says the U.S. military has developed "cave-buster" bombs using nanoaluminum, and it is also working on missiles and torpedoes that move so quickly that they strike their targets before evasive actions can be taken.

"Nanoaluminum provides ultra high burn rates for propellants that are ten times higher than existing propellants," says Carpenter.
The military is also trying to make sure that its bullets kill quickly.

The U.S. Army Environmental Center began a program in 1997 to develop alternatives to the toxic lead that is used in the hundreds of millions of rounds that are annually fired during conflicts and at its training ranges.  Carpenter says that although bullets using nanoaluminum are ready to be field tested, the government has been slow implement the technology.

"Getting the government to change the way they kill people is difficult," Carpenter says.

Because nanometal provides a higher concentration of energy while requiring fewer raw materials, the overall cost of these weapons would drop, according to Kevin Walter, vice president of technical business development at nanometals manufacturer Nanoscale Technologies.

"You get a little better bang for your buck," Walter says.

The nanometals can be produced in particles as small as eight nanometers, Walter says, and then combined with other chemicals to create the explosive materials, which can also be used for non-military applications including pyrotechnics and explosives for mining.
Nanotechnology "could completely change the face of weaponry," according to Andy Oppenheimer, a weapons expert with analyst firm and publisher Jane's Information Group. Oppenheimer says nations including the United States, Germany, and Russia are developing "mini-nuke" devices that use nanotechnology to create much smaller nuclear detonators.

Oppenheimer says the devices could fit inside a briefcase and would be powerful enough to destroy a building. Although the devices require nuclear materials, because of their small size "they blur the line with conventional weapons," Oppenheimer says.

The mini-nuke weapons are still in the research phase and may be surreptitiously funded since any form of nuclear proliferation is "politically contentious" because of the possibility that they could fall into the hands of terrorists, Oppenheimer says.

The creation of much smaller nuclear bombs adds new challenges to the effort to limit weapons of mass destruction, according to Oppenheimer.

"(The bombs) could blow open everything that is in place for arms control," Oppenheimer says. "Everything gets more dangerous."

~End article

~
Morgan Reynolds

Morgan Reynolds, a Ph.D. economist affiliated with physics911.net and st911.org, is the author of a well-known article of June 9, 2005, on the collapses here ( http://physics911.net/reynolds.htm )and his new 9/11 article is here. ( http://nomoregames.net/index/.php?page=911&subpage1=we_have_holes ). Rick Rajter, a graduate student @ MIT in Materials Science and Engineering, adds further comments. Reynolds was in either Bush 41's or Bush 43's Administration (I forget which Bush he served under.)

I am just sending you the link to his article of March, 2006, instead of copying it here for you, because there are a couple of photographs you may wish to collect from that page for your records.
http://nomoregames.net/index.php?page=911&subpage1=we_have_holes

Also of interest, related:

Below is link to article by engineer/pilot
http://physics911.net/sagadevan.htm

Below is link to Dr. David Ray Griffin (Professor Emeritus in Divinity) debunking 911 Commission Report. This one is a classic:
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/571-page-lie.htm

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: F42 on April 11, 2006, 06:36:09 am
Sorry, this post was supposed to follow the previous one, but the real estate agen came by and I haven't been able to get back to this. So here is the rest of the story. May not seem like a big deal on the surface BUT.......F42


Data Matrix is the name of a two dimensional bar code where there is no patent. The technology is in the public domain.

(http://www.idautomation.com/fonts/datamatrix/DataMatrixImage.jpeg)

Data Matrix is a very area efficient 2D (two dimensional) barcode symbology that uses a unique square module perimeter pattern that helps the barcode scanner determine the cell locations. Because it can encode letters, numbers, text and actual bytes of data, it can encode just about anything including extended characters, unicode characters and photos. Data Matrix barcodes can encode large amounts of data. However, encoding over 800 characters is often difficult to scan; more about this (http://www.idautomation.com/datamatrixfaq.html#Data_Encoded).

Some alternate currency advocates were trying to figure out some kind of scheme where a LETS like currency could be created on the spot where-ever anything needed to be collateralized. It would be a short life-time currency tied to some kind of algorithm for an average value (indexing) and carrying a two dimensional bar code for tracking and anti-counterfeiting measures.

The other two dimensional bar code whose technology is in the public domain is the PDF-417 pattern. There is more equipment already out there using this pattern. Chances are there is a PDF-417 bar code on the back side of your drivers liscense. The patrol cars have readers. The bar code basically just says the same stuff as the front of the liscense does. It is used to catch kids altering their age etc.

(http://idautomation.com/img/pdf4174.gif)

Fed-Ex uses this pattern.
The Data Matrix pattern is often seen on the top of student tests that are administered on a national level.

I guess this is just some trivia nobody really cares about, but the technology is being used all over to track inventory of many kinds. But are we now not considered inventory by the ZOG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_Occupation_Government)?

Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: F42 on April 11, 2006, 06:51:38 am
What Congress Does Not Know about Enron and 9/11
May 31, 2002 For Immediate Release

By Atty. John J. Loftus
3560 Coquina Key Drive SE
St. Petersburg, FL 33705
Ph: 727-821-5227
Fx: 727-894-1801
About the author: As a former federal prosecutor, John Loftus had an insider’s knowledge of high level intelligence operations, including obstruction of Congressional investigations. Loftus resigned from the Justice Department in 1981 to expose how the intelligence community had recruited Nazi war criminals and then concealed the files from Congressional subpoena. After appearing on an Emmy Award winning segment of 60 Minutes, Loftus has spent the next two decades writing histories of intelligence cover-ups, and serving as an unpaid lawyer helping other whistleblowers inside US intelligence.

A captured Al Qaida document reveals that US energy companies were secretly negotiating with the Taliban to build a pipeline. The document was obtained by the FBI but was not allowed to be shared with other agencies in order to protect Enron. Multiple sources confirm that American law enforcement agencies were deliberately kept in the dark and systematically prevented from connecting the dots before 9/11 in order to aid Enron’s secret and immoral Taliban negotiations.

The suppressed Al Qaida document tends to support recent claims of a cover-up made by several mid-level intelligence and law enforcement figures. Their ongoing terrorist investigations appear to have been hindered during the same sensitive time period while the Enron Corporation was still negotiating with the Taliban. An inadvertent result of the Taliban pipeline cover-up was that the Taliban’s friends in Al Qaida were able to complete their last eight months of preparations for 9/11 while the Enron secrecy block was still in force.

Although the latest order to block investigations allegedly resulted from Enron’s January 2002 appeal to Vice President Dick Cheney, it appears that there were at least three previous block orders, each building upon the other, stretching back for decades and involving both Republican and Democratic administrations.

The first block came in the 1970’s, as a result of Congressional reaction to domestic espionage against the anti-Vietnam war movement. In a case of blatant over-reaction, the FBI placed all houses of worship and religious charities off-limits for any surveillance whatsoever unless there was independent probable cause. This meant that all Mosques and other Muslim meeting places for terrorist groups were effectively off limits until after a crime had been committed. The block order was not lifted until last week by Atty. General Ashcroft.

The second block order, in force since the 1980’s, was against any investigation that would embarrass the Saudi Royal family. Originally, it was designed to conceal Saudi support for Muslim extremists fighting against the Soviets in Afghanistan and Chechnya, but it went too far. Oliver North noted in his autobiography, that every time he tried to do something about terrorism links in the Middle East, he was told to stop because it might embarrass the Saudis. This block remains in place.

As the combined result of these two blocks, the Saudis were able to fund middle eastern terrorists in complete secrecy during the 1990’s through a network of Muslim charities in Virginia, Tampa and Florida. The Saudi funding network was targeted at the destruction of the State of Israel and the obstruction of the Palestinian peace process.

The Saudi funding conduit has now been exposed and shut down by means of a private lawsuit, Loftus vs. Sami Al Arian, which is currently pending in Hillsborough County, Florida. The lawsuit, filed on March 20, 2002, influenced the government into raiding the Saudi charities in Herndon, Virginia, a few hours later.

After filing the Al-Arian lawsuit, Attorney Loftus began to receive very detailed documents and information about a third block: a prohibition on investigations concerning the Taliban. In the early 1990’s, a consortium of American oil companies (lead by Unocal) had hired Enron to determine the profitability of building an oil and gas pipeline across Afghanistan so that America could have access to the Caspian Sea Basin, holding 1/8th of the worlds energy supplies.

There is no doubt that these secret negotiations existed, and that they were known to Al Qaida. Loftus recently received an FBI translation of a highly classified and encrypted Al Qaida document, circa 1997-1998, which was retrieved and decrypted from a computer laptop following the Embassy bombing in Africa. The document was written by Osama Bin Laden’s military commander, Mohammed Atef, under his nom de guerre, Abu Haf, and reveals extensive knowledge of the supposedly secret pipeline negotiations, and their potential economic worth to the Taliban, Pakistan and the U.S.

Former Afghanistan CIA agent Robert Baer has recently published a book charging that the cover-up of the 1990’s pipeline negotiations revealed extensive financial corruption inside the Clinton administration, and contributed to the lack of intelligence before 9/11. The Taliban negotiations temporarily collapsed in 1999 after Clinton reversed his NSC advisor’s policy, and ordered a missile strike against terrorists in Afghanistan.

However, in January 2001, Vice President Cheney allegedly reinstated the intelligence block and expanded it to effectively preclude any investigations whatsoever of Saudi-Taliban-Afghan oil connections. Former FBI counter-terrorism chief John O’Neill resigned from the FBI in disgust, stating that he was ordered not to investigate Saudi-Al Qaida connections because of the Enron pipeline deal. Loftus has confirmed that it was O’Neill who originally discovered the AL Qaida pipeline memo after the Embassy bombings in Africa.

O’Neill gave an overview of the Enron block to two French authors who will soon be publishing in the United States. The FBI is currently investigating Loftus’ links to John O’Neill, and is also refusing FBI agent Robert Wright permission to publish his own findings about the Enron block.

Loftus asserts that the Enron block, which remained in force from January 2001 until August 2001 when the pipeline deal collapsed, is the reason that none of FBI agent Rowley’s requests for investigations were ever approved. As numerous British and French authors have concluded, the information provided by European intelligence sources prior to 9/11 was so extensive, that it is no longer possible for either CIA or the FBI to assert a defense of incompetence.

It is time for Congress to face the truth: In order to give Enron one last desperate chance to complete the Taliban pipeline and save itself from bankruptcy, senior levels of US intelligence were ordered to keep their eyes shut and their subordinates ignorant.

The Enron cover-up confirms that 9/11 was not an intelligence failure or a law enforcement failure (at least not entirely). Instead, it was a foreign policy failure of the highest order. If Congress ever combines its Enron investigation with 9/11, Cheney’s whole house of cards will collapse.

http://www.john-loftus.com/enron3.asp


Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: F42 on April 11, 2006, 06:54:35 am
Elias, I have stored a lot since the old CT thread. But I don't want to clutter, nor hijack where your going with this thread. Let me know where you are going. OK..

F42
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: henshawe on April 11, 2006, 12:17:37 pm
G'Day All,

Elais, I must complement you on the wizard research you have engaged in during the course of this Conspiracy II thread. Truly a work of art!! As you ave pointed out 'follow the money' to understand what s going on in our world. I don't see any earlier post that contain this link so hope it is of interest.

Further to the thrust of the thread, I found this little tidbit regarding an op from the 70's which I ould assume is on going. ' In the mid 1970s, the final phase of System 2000, a "global creditors' unilateral totalitarian plan" was put into effect'. This dovetails with you discussion of the bankers desire to manipulate the financial markets to their advantage such as to create the NWO. These manipulations obviously entailed the use of FRACTIONAL RESERVE BANKING, which as many of us know  'Fractional reserve banking means that the bank is only required to hold on hand the small fraction of money (5%) that is needed to cover the fraction of deposits likely to be drawn upon and cashed. Moneys deposited in accounts go into a reserve upon which credit can be issued. In the US credit can be issued to seven times the reserve, in international banks (off shore establishments) twenty times the reserve can be issued as credit. It is important to understand this concept in order to understand the larger picture'.

Here's the link http://www.indybay.org/news/2006/04/1814452.php

Some real scary shit going on, eh? Just amazes me that many people still deny any of this is real even after being presented with the factual written evidence from the perpertrators themselves. Just unbelievable!!

Regards,

Americus

Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 12, 2006, 02:36:27 am
T.H.E. Cat,

I'm sure you meant no harm in posting what you did. I'm equally certain that it must have felt good to you-yourself to speak so candidly about your sentiments and reactions to what is being revealed on this thread. But I fear you've possibly gone a bit over-board with your exclamation of perceived justice. No one here is recommending that anyone shoot anyone for any reason. Shooting is not going to solve our problems at this time. But even talking about shooting anyone is an invitation to the criminals who're running the Federal government to take actions which I personally do not wish to endure.

I do not like “rules”. Instead of “rules”, I expect people to be, act, and speak with some degree of personal responsibility. The reason why it is to everyone's advantage that we all share that perspective on our deportment here is symbolized by your post. You appear to be deliberately trying to make TCF go away, disappear in the wake of FBI or other Intel agency action, with possible legal repercussions for myself, Debra, Bill St.Clair, and others. That is not a good thing, T.H.E. Cat. In fact, it is a bad thing.

Perhaps the best way I can think to respond to your blatant disregard for your friends here, as made manifest by your carefree discussion of  “shooting the bastards”, which is a direct threat to the existence of these message boards, is to refer you to the Church Committee's report on the FBI's use of informants, whereupon reading said report you shall gain valuable insight into the un-published attitudes at the FBI.

What I would like for you to do is simply go to this report and read the whole thing, and try to comprehend what the report contains, what it means, and why your amazing comment regarding “shooting the bastards” can only be seen as sabotage of the TCF boards. Debra has said she will yank these boards off the air if anyone says anything which places a legal liability on herself as owner of these boards. I do not blame her one whit for making that declaration. At the same time, she has removed any ability by anyone else here to delete posts such as you have placed here. All I would like to say to you is that some of us here take life seriously, take freedom seriously, take our work at these boards seriously -  and posts like the one you put on this thread are a direct affront to the rest of us.

If I had the ability, I'd immediately delete your post on grounds that it jeopardizes the existence of the boards, but I cannot do that. So I'm leaving it up to you to read this article on FBI usage of informants and then deciding, if you see good reason to follow my advice, to go back to your dangerous post and remove or edit the part which places all of us in danger. Would you be willing to do that? If so, you have my salute and gratitude.

From here:
http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/cointelpro/churchfinalreportIIId.htm


SUPPLEMENTARY DETAILED STAFF REPORTS
ON INTELLIGENCE ACTIVITIES AND THE
RIGHTS OF AMERICANS

_______

BOOK III
_______


FINAL REPORT

OF THE

SELECT COMMITTEE
TO STUDY GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS

WITH RESPECT TO

INTELLIGENCE ACTIVITIES
UNITED STATES SENATE



APRIL 23 (under authority of the order of April 14), 1976





THE USE OF INFORMANTS IN FBI DOMESTIC INTELLIGENCE INVESTIGATIONS
[/b]

I. INTRODUCTION AND SUMMARY

The dangers to a free society that are implicit in the use of secret intelligence informers have long been recognized. In his Constitutional History of England, written in the mid-19th century, Sir Thomas May observed:

Men may be without restraints upon their liberty; they may pass to and fro at pleasure: but if their steps are tracked by spies and informers, their words noted down for crimination, their associates watched as conspirators -- who shall say that they are free? 1
May pointed to the use of informers by "continental despotisms," noting that "the freedom of a country may be measured by its immunity from this baleful agency."

 
On the other hand, law enforcement officials see informants 3 as a highly effective technique -- one justified by the public's interest in the detection of crime and the prosecution of criminals. FBI officials testified to the Committee that informants "provide one of the best and most complete forms of coverage" in their investigations. 4 Former Attorney General Katzenbach testified that the use of intelligence informants in the mid-1960s to infiltrate the Ku Klux Klan -- a technique urged upon the FBI by President Johnson, Attorney General Robert Kennedy, and Mr. Katzenbach -- was a principal factor in stopping repeated acts of criminal violence.
 
This Appendix, pursuant to the Committee's mandate under Senate Resolution 21, focuses on the use of informants in FBI intelligence investigations who are recruited, paid and directed by Bureau Special Agents. The Committee did not examine the use of informants in FBI criminal investigations nor did the Committee examine instances of the "walk-in" who volunteers information to the FBI on a one-time basis. As discussed in more detail below, paid and directed intelligence informants are extensively used in FBI domestic intelligence investigations of groups and individuals. These intelligence informants are, the subject of this Appendix.

The use of informants to collect intelligence on Americans is not confined to the FBI. The Committee also examined the use of intelligence informants by other agencies. In the late 1960s,informants and undercover agents were used by the CIA and Army Intelligence to secretly penetrate domestic groups. In 1968, about 1500 Army intelligence agents were engaged in monitoring and penetrating civilian activity in the United States; although a 1971 Defense Department directive now generally limits the military's collection of information about private groups and individuals, the directive permits the military to secretly penetrate civilian groups where approved by the Defense Department. See the Appendices on Improper Surveillance of Private Citizens by the Military and CIA Intelligence Activities Regarding Americans. In addition, the Internal Revenue Service uses informants for intelligence purposes. See the IRS Report: p. 863, "Selective Enforcement for Non-Tax Purposes."

A. Summary of Facts

1. The Extensive Use of Intelligence lnformants

The paid and directed informant is the most extensively used technique in FBI domestic intelligence investigations. Informants were used in 85 percent of the domestic intelligence investigations analyzed in a recent study by the General Accounting Office. 5 By comparison, electronic surveillance was used in only 5 percent of the cases studied. The FBI places strong emphasis on informant coverage, in intelligence investigations, instructing agents to "develop reliable informants at all levels and in all segments" of groups under investigation. 6

The Committee's investigation revealed that the FBI was using more than 1,500 domestic intelligence informants as of June 30, 1975. 7

The FBI budget for Fiscal Year 1976 programmed a total of $7,401,000 for the intelligence informant program, more than twice the amount allocated for the organized crime informant program.

(snip)

Subversive Informants. -- The FBI classifies its paid and directed intelligence informants into two categories, "subversive" and "extremist," corresponding to the two types of domestic intelligence investigations. "Subversive" 22 informants are those used in the investigation of "subversive activities," defined in Section 87 of the FBI Manual as "activities aimed at overthrowing, destroying, or undermining the Government of the United States or any of its political subdivisions" by illegal means. 23 Section 87 has been applied to the activities of the Communist Party and a wide variety of other organizations which the FBI believes have revolutionary characteristics. During the Vietnam War, investigations of individuals labeled "Key Activists" were conducted under Section 87, in which informant coverage was stressed. For example, in January 1968, instructions went out to ten major field offices to designate certain persons as "Key Activists." They were defined as "individuals in the Students for a Democratic Society and the anti-Vietnam war groups [who] are extremely active and most vocal in their statements denouncing the United States and calling for civil disobedience and other forms of unlawful and disruptive acts." 24 There was to be "an intensive investigation" of each "key activist":
Because of their leadership and prominence in the "new left" movement, as well as the growing militancy of this movement, each office must maintain high-level informant coverage on these individuals so that the Bureau is kept abreast of their day-to-day activities as well as the organizations they are affiliated with, to develop information r egarding their sources of funds, foreign contacts, and future plans. 25

Extremist Informants. -- "Extremist" informants 25a are those used in the investigation of "extremist" activities, defined in Section 122 of the FBI Manual in the same way as subversive activities but also including "denying the rights of individuals under the Constitution....."

~End teaser from above linked report by U.S. Senate.

Thanks, Bro!
Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 12, 2006, 03:36:50 am
Elias, I have stored a lot since the old CT thread. But I don't want to clutter, nor hijack where your going with this thread. Let me know where you are going. OK..

F42


Salute, F42!

Your question is perhaps one of the most difficult questions anyone could toss my way, lol. Here, in a nutshell, is where I think we might want this thread to go, what we might want it to accomplish.

1) We may wish to establish "Precedent" for criminality inside seats of government offices. That includes history.
2) We may wish to establish "Motive" for specific types of criminality inside seats of government offices.
3) We may wish to establish "Capability" to plan, organize, finance, and execute illegal activities, covertly, by criminals inside seats of government.
4) We may wish to establish the chronological activities of certain namable persons presently seated in seats of government offices which are pertinent to uncovering the truth regarding what happened to the United States of America on 911 and in the other classic examples of "domestic terrorism events".
5) I personally wish to establish beyond any reasonable doubt that Vice President Dick Cheney is the highest-seated government official who had knowledge of Precedent for, possessed a Motive for, and possessed under his sole command the Capability to facilitate the execution of the events of 911.

I appreciate the complexity and extensiveness of your question, and acknowledge that this topic itself is literally boundless as I've attempted to lay it out. Literally every aspect of American society, culture, historic psychological predisposition of heritage, more and moray, perception, value system(s), and existential cognizance are brought finally into play, and rightly so. Yet we must somehow attempt to cull vast segments of available information and knowledge in an effort to streamline this developing thread "for effect".

It is my understanding that you've read "Behold A Pale Horse" by Cooper. I have only read parts of it, but will soon finish it. Much of what is contained in that book would work nicely in this thread, as also do your previous entries on this thread. I have no doubt about your insightful understanding of just what and who our "enemy" is today, and I'll tell you man to man that I certainly am thankful for your presence on this thread. So I would just say to you that I welcome anything you feel is helpful in achieving our goals with this thread.

Example: You have posted an article regarding former FBI Counter-Terrorism Chief John O'Neil's disclosures to two French journalists/investigators prior to his death on 911. To show that great minds soar in the same air currents, :) ,  here is an excerpt from my unfinished book:

~

"What we want to have in existence, what we ought to have been creating in this time is some administration with Arab institutions which we can safely leave while pulling the strings ourselves; something that won't cost very much, which the Labour government can swallow consistent with its 'principles', but under which our economic and political interests will be secure. [.....] If the French remain in Syria we shall have to avoid giving them the excuse of setting up a protectorate. If they go, or if we appear to be reactionary in Mesopotamia, there is always the risk that [King] Faisal will encourage the Americans to take over both, and it should be borne in mind that the Standard Oil company is very anxious to take over Iraq." - Sir Arthur Hirtzel, Head of the British government's India Office Political Department, in the year 1919.

~

What we are learning presently has to do with CIA-dominated banks arranging the financing of terrorism. To begin to look into that can of worms we notice al Qaeda's relationship with BCCI, and the Saudi bin Laden Group's involvement with BCCI. Just as the CIA used BCCI to facilitate illegal arms shipments to Iran, CIA also used BCCI in some of the funding programs for Osama bin Laden's Mujahedeen, which CIA trained and armed in Afghanistan to thwart the USSR in its effort to regain control over  the  government in Kabul. (The USSR had lost control over Kabul in 1979 when Zbigniew Brzezinski and President Jimmy Carter injected the CIA into Kabul to destabilize Afghanistan. Prior to that, Kabul had been a USSR puppet government. According to Brzezinski, the “chess move”, the move to insert CIA into Kabul, could possibly lure the USSR into inserting uniformed troops, whereupon, in Brzezinski's vision, the U.S.A. could hand the USSR “its own Vietnam War”.)

Brzezinski was right. That is exactly what happened. Six months after Carter put the CIA into Kabul, the USSR invaded, and the resulting Afghan war, in ten years of costly fighting against guerrilla forces trained and armed by CIA, depleted the USSR's economy, leading, in major part, to its fall in 1989.  (Apparently Goldman-Sachs and the Harvard Fund, and a few others, assisted in the plunder of the Soviet economy, assuring  its collapse.) But I digress. To fund support of the Mujahedeen, CIA needed ways to transfer funds. With Nugan-Hand Bank no longer available, BCCI, which CIA had already discovered could do the trick, was used by CIA. (I do not mean to imply that CIA used only BCCI.)

But of course banks would be nothing without the corporate structure, the myriad companies which glean the flow of various wealths, such as the gross national product of any industrialized nation. Let's now look overseas, with an eye open for Khalid bin Mahfouz, and see how things work internationally.

From the book by Jean-Charles Brisard and Guillanne Dasquie, “Forbidden Truth: U.S.-Taliban Secret Oil Diplomacy And The Failed Hunt For Bin Laden”, and at risk of completely exploding my software's “spell-check” feature, I am going to type in here some lengthy sections which I hope shall open a new window of perspective. I shall begin on page 119. We should keep in mind that President Bill Clinton had hit the Al Shifa pharmaceutical factory in Sudan with “Monica Missiles” (so named because his scandal with Ms Lewinski appeared to call for distractive headlines, suggesting to critics of the Clinton Administration a variation on the “wag the dog” scenario).
~
Begin quoted passages from “Forbidden Truth”, page 119:

In 1976 [BCCI] tried to purchase the National Bank of Georgia with the cooperation of its president, Thomas Bertram Lance, one of Jimmy Carter's associates, who would become the president's budget director. The BCCI's agreement with the Bank of America did not, however, allow it to have stakes on American soil. Two American lawyers stepped in to handle negotiations. They were Clark M. Clifford and Robert Altman, associates of Thomas Bertram Lance. In 1977, the BCCI and Ghaith Pharaon bought the Bank of America's holding in the BCCI (for $34 million). The same year, the BCCI tried to purchase another American bank, the Chelsea National Bank. The offer was presented by the Gokal family, with the BCCI acting as financial adviser. But American regulators refused the deal because of the ties between the BCCI and the Gokals. The BCCI was subjected to American laws requiring the monitoring of all foreign banks investing in the United States because it was registered in countries without sufficient regulations.

Ghaith Pharaon, who already had investments in several banks in Detroit and Houston – acquired with the support or in partnership with the former governor of Texas, John Connally – was put in contact with Thomas Bertram Lance.

Ghaith Pharaon made an offer to buy the National Bank of Georgia in 1977 and appointed Roy Carlson - formerly of the Bank of America – its manager. It turned out that the BCCI had granted Ghaith Pharaon a loan for this purchase, and that he was acting as a screen for the bank.

At the end of 1977, Eugene Metzger, and Jackson Stephens, an associate of Thomas Bertram Lance and Jimmy Carter, were looking for a buyer for Financial General Bankshares. Represented by a group of investors, the BCCI decided to buy IDB. The investors included Kamal Adham, Faisal Al-Fallaj, Sheikh Sultan bin Zayed Al-Nahyan, and Abdullah Darwaish. The group attempted to buy the company's stocks without declaring the purchase. Federal authorities, in turn, forced them to sell back the shares. In order to get around this problem, the interested parties created the Credit and Commerce American Holdings (CCAH) in 1978 in the Dutch Antilles, and made Clark Clifford, Robert Altman, Jack W. Beddow, and A. Vincent Scoffone its managers. In 1980, the holding company announced its purchase of Financial General Bankshares. Federal authorities approved the purchase in 1982, deeming that the BCCI was neither financing nor directing the takeover. Managed by Clark Clifford, Robert Altman, and Aijaz Afridi, the bank became the First American Bank.

It wasn't until 1991 that federal authorities discovered a loan granted to CCAH by the Banque Arabe et Internationale d' Investissement (BAII), a French institution closely linked to the BCCI, headed by Yves Lamarches. The guarantor on the $50 million loan was a BCCI subsidiary in the Cayman Islands. In addition, one of the shareholders in the CCAH was Mashriq Corp., also a BCCI subsidiary. Finally, it was discovered that between 1980 and 1989, the BCCI had granted loans to the CCAH for a total of $856 million.

In 1985, Ghaith Pharaon proceeded with the purchase of the Independence Bank, another American institution, thanks to a loan granted on the basis of a letter of credit from the BAII. In 1986, he sold a part of his stake in the BCCI to Khalid bin Mahfouz and his brothers, who became 20 percent shareholders in the bank. This wouldn't stop the FBI and the IRS from issuing an arrest warrant against Ghaith Pharaon in 1991 for tax fraud in the BCCI affair, as well as extortion in the United States. (snip)

Following Manuel Noriega's arrest in 1989, American judicial authorities revealed that the BCCI, in particular Amjad Awan, was in charge of managing the former dictator's personal accounts, as well as those of several drug traffickers in Panama. The BCCI participated in the laundering of $25 million from Manuel Noriega'a accounts. The BCCI also had ties with several weapons traffickers, as well as with Abu Nidal, whose secret accounts were handled out of a London branch.  The BCCI facilitated financial operations for Iraqi arms dealer Samir Najmadeen, as well as for Adnan Kashoggi, one of Kamal Adham's close contacts. Kashoggi was secretly selling arms to Iran, and at the same time was in contact with an Iraqi intermediary, Manucher Ghorbanifar.
In 1987 the BCCI financed the purchase of high-resistance steel for General Inam Ul-Haq, who was in charge of the Pakistani nuclear arms program. The bank also financed the creation of a high-tech research center run by the head of Pakistani nuclear research, A. Qadir Khan.

(snip- begin quoted passages on page 130)

The fact that associates of Khalid bin Mahfouz held important management and executive positions in the Al Shifa pharmaceutical factory is another testament to the involvement of powerful Saudi businessmen in Osama bin Laden's networks.

One such Saudi businessman, Saleh Idris, of Sudanese descent, had owned the factory since April 1998, before it was the object of American military strikes on August 20, 1998. The United States estimated that the factory may have been manufacturing chemical weapons. Before this date, the CIA believed that Osama bin Laden was a main shareholder in this factory, investing through dummy companies. An American investigative agency, Kroll Associates, concluded that it was unlikely the factory was developing chemical weapons. [EA note: Kroll has partnered, perhaps in 2004, with “Pre-Paid Legal, Inc.” out of Oklahoma, and those two companies now offer Americans a “legal insurance” package  which includes, for about ten additional dollars per month over Pre-Paid's customer fee, Kroll's “identity-theft insurance”. Kroll is also associated with CIA.]

However, Saleh Idris is linked through several investments to Khalid bin Mahfouz and Mohammed Al Amoudi. These ties shed new light on what was at stake in the Al Shifa factory.

(continued next post)
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 12, 2006, 03:38:24 am
(continued from previous post)

~

Saleh Idris is involved in Al-Majd General Services Ltd, located at the headquarters in Khartoum of Abu Fath Al-Tigani Investment Intena, which is a subsidiary of the Tadamon Islamic Bank, shareholder of the Al Shamal Islamic Bank, one of Osama bin Laden's main financial vehicles.

Saleh Idris is also manager of the Saudi Sudanese Bank, whose president is none other than Khalid bin Mahfouz. Throughout the 1980s, Saleh Idris was even a board member of the Saudi National Commercial Bank. Saleh Idris is also Mohammed Al Amoudi's partner within the British company M.S. Management Ltd., with Nasrullah Khan.

Khalid bin Mahfouz is one of the leading shareholders (25 percent) in the International Bank of Yemen, of which the Bank of America owns 20 percent. The Yemenite bank is led by Ahmed Kaid Barakat and Ali Lutf Al Thor. The bin Mahfouz family also owns a moving company based in Jedah called Marei Bin Mahfouz and Ahmad Al Amoudi Co. of which Mohammed Hussein Al Amoudi is a shareholder in the company.

Al Amoudi is also president of Al Amoudi Group Company Ltd of Saudi Arabia, one of the kingdom's leading conglomerates, whose chairman, Sheikh Hamed bin Ali Mussalam, was implicated in the Sawari-2 affair. Mussalam is also an associate of the founder of International Development Foundation in London.

The bin Mahfouz galaxy is not only made up of dubious investments, but its creator gives a new dimension to business relations. He was able to establish such relations in the past, notably with the United States.

A Pakistani bank in which  he is the main shareholder is a good example: Prime Commercial Bank is run by Sami Bubarak Baarma, a Saudi Arabian citizen born in 1955; Saeed Chaudhry; and Abdul Rahman bin Khalid bin Mahfouz, son of Khalid Mahfouz.

Sami Mubarak Baarma is an executive of SNCB Securities Limited in London, another bin Mahfouz subsidiary. For the NCB, he manages a financial network called Middle East Capital Group (MECG), based in Lebanon. One of MECG's directors is Henry Sarkissian, who runs several companies in the Binladen Group. Sami Mubarak Baarma is also in charge of the Saudi National Commercial Bank's international division. As a result of his influence in Pakistan, he became a member of the Carlyle Group's advisory committee.

The Carlyle Group's leading investors include many figures from former U.S. President George H.W. Bush's entourage, as well as that of President George Walker Bush. Its board of directors includes important figures from the Bush team: James A. Baker III, former secretary of state under the first President Bush; Frank C. Carlucci, former secretary of defense under Ronald Reagan; Richard G. Darman, former director of the Office of Management and Budget under George H.W. Bush between 1989 and 1993; and John Sununu, former White House chief of staff under George Bush. In addition, Saudi Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal, nephew of King Fahd, owns an indeterminate  stake in the group. Even President George W. Bush was a member of the board of directors of one of the Carlyle Group's subsidiaries, Caterair, between 1990 and 1994.

In 1987 an obscure Saudi financier named Adbullah Taha Bakhsh invested in Harken, a Texas oil company, which was going through difficult times. This Saudi investor is none other than the partner of Khalid bin Mahfouz and Ghaith Pharaon. And so Taha Bakhsh became an 11.5 percent shareholder in Harken Energy Corp.

His representative within Harken Energy is not unknown either. Talat Othman, is a member alongside Frank Carlucci of one of America's most prestigious thinks tanks, the Middle East Policy Council as well as being a leading Arab-American supporter of the Republican Party.

These investors knew each other well. They've been sitting on the same boards for more than ten years, along side Salem bin Laden, the brother of Osama bin Laden who died in a plane crash in Texas in 1988.

It is therefore not surprising to find James R. Bath on the list of shareholders in two other companies controlled by George W. Bush – Arbusto '79 Ltd. and Arbusto '80 Ltd. In the late 1970s, James R. Bath, a wealthy Texas entrepreneur, invested $50,000 in these companies to get them off the ground. At the time, he was the U.S. business representative for Salem bin Laden according to the terms of a 1976 trust agreement. It came out later, in 1993, in an official U.S. document, that he was also the legal representative of Khalid bin Mahfouz. [EA note: James R. Bath, of Houston, Texas, met George Walker Bush when they served together in the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam conflict.]

The two entities founded by George W. Bush were later merged with Harken Energy; all traces of these transactions have disappeared.

Khalid bin Mahfouz was very active in Texas at the time. During a deposition before the Financial Crimes Enforcement Newwork (FinCEN), James R. Bath claimed to own Skyway Aircraft Leasing Ltd, which in fact belonged to Khalid bin Mahfouz.
In 1990, Mahfouz procured a loan of $1.4 million for James R. Bath, allowing him to buy a stake in the Houston Airport.  Following Salem bin Laden's death in 1988, Khalid bin Mahfouz took back this holding.

But the bin Mahfouz empire also shares common interests with American oil companies, specifically concerning Central Asia in the area around the Caspian Sea, which is covered by these companies.

In the last few years, Khalid bin Mahfouz's Nimir Petroleum signed exploration and drilling agreements in the major Gulf States, Central Asia, from Oman to Kazakhstan, and even in Venezuela.

In 1994, Nimir Petroleum agreed to partner with the Saudi group Delta Oil Company, which had been trying for years to get a contract in order to build a gas and oil pipeline between Turkmenistan and Pakistan – via Afghanistan. The main partner in the $5 billion project was none other than the American corporate giant Unocal Corp. Negotiations with the Taliban had come to a deadlock, and the Delta Oil – Unocal consortium was undoubtedly counting on Khalid bin Mahfouz's support in the undertaking.

Besides, Khalid bin Mahfouz was not the only Saudi businessman to take a strong interest in Central Asia's oil at the time. Starting in 1991, Dallah Albaraka, a group controlled by Saleh Abdullah Kamel, was also getting involved in the exploitation of several sites in Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan.

In the world of the BCCI, there is another facet of the BCCI that is little known. It involves investments made by the bank's main protagonists in the luxury goods industry, through a financial group in the Gulf controlled by Khalid bin Mahfouz's circle.

The company, Investcorp, is located in Manama, the capital of Bahrain, and was founded by the region's most elite oilmen and financiers; Nemir Kirdar, an Iraqi businessman and former manager of Chase Manhattan Bank in the Persian Gulf; Ahmed Ali Kanoo, who died in 1997; Ahmed Zaki Yamani, former oil minister of Saudi Arabia; and Abdul Rahman Salim Al Ateeqi, former oil minister of Kuwait. Investcorp's holding company, Investcorp Investment Holdings Corp., is registered in the Cayman Islands, and its main subsidiary overseeing international activities, Investcorp SA, is registered in Luxembourg.

Inspired by the movement toward autonomy and the financial emancipation of the Persian Gulf after the first oil crisis – especially in view of large Western financial institutions – Investcorp was established on similar principles to those that led to the creation of BCCI in 1972. Though the two entities are not in the same industries -  the BCCI is a banking institution, while Investcorp is meant to be an investment company – they were both created with the joint support of the Emirate authorities, Saudi investors, and Western banks (Bank of America in the case of BCCI, and Chase Manhattan in the case of Investcorp).

In addition, their holding companies were located in the same offshore centers (the Cayman Islands and Luxembourg).
The two entities also have common shareholders. In addition to its two main executives (Abdul Rahman Salim Al Ateeqi, chairman, and Nemir Kirdar, president and CEO) as well as representatives from the government of the United Arab Emirates, Investcorp also has an executive committee made up of eighteen of the group's main shareholders, many of whom were shareholders in the BCCI.
At least four of these members represent the interests of, or are closely involved with, Saudi businessmen who played a major role in the BCCI affair. They are Abdullah Taha Bakhsh, Mohammed Abdullah Al Zamil, Bakr Mohammed bin Laden, and Omar Al Aggad.

Between 1976 and 1982, Abdullah Taha Bakhsh – an investor in Harkin Energy, recall – was the representative for the bin Laden family in the United States. He also represents Khalid bin Mahfouz's financial interests in the Middle East. What's more, several sources emphasize the fact that he represents the interests of Khalid Salim bin Mahfouz on the board of directors of Investcorp, thanks to Bakhsh's services

Mohammed Abdullah Al Zamil is one of the main executives of the Bahrain Islamic Bank BSC. The financial institution has stakes in close to twenty banks around the world, including the Tadamon Islamic Bank, an important shareholder in the Al Shamal Bank, mentioned earlier in regard to Osama bin Laden's personal investments. In addition, Mohammed Abdullah Al Zamil heads the family-held Al Zamil Company in Saudi Arabia, in which Khalid bin Mahfouz is the main shareholder.

Finally, his son Hamad Al Zamil is a partner with Khalid bin Mahfouz in the Jeddah-based advertising group Tihama for Advertising, Public Relations and Marketing. Its president, Saleh Abdullah, was president of the Albaraka Bank-Sudan and a shareholder in the Tadamon Islamic Bank.

Bakr Mohammed bin Laden is Osama bin Laden's older brother. He has headed the Binladen Group since 1988, which has several subsidiaries in common with Khalid bin Mahfouz, notably through the Saudi Investment Company (SICO), created in 1980. Throughout the 1980s, the company, which is led by Yeslam bin Laden, another brother of Osama bin Laden, created a network of dummy companies registered in the Cayman Islands, the Bahamas, and Ireland. These companies are generally controlled by SICO, as well as by former BCCI partners.

~End excerpts from Forbidden Truth as reproduced in my book. I've included more in the manuscript, after which I begin my personal "take" with this comment to the Judiciary Committee of the Montana House of Representatives:

By now... you may be wondering how two French authors could come up with such information, and so much of it. My opinion is that one of them got much of that information from the U.S. FBI itself. Specifically, from a former Deputy Director of counter-terrorism in the FBI's New York office, a man who had been put on Osama bin Laden's trail but who had finally resigned in disgust, claiming that the George Walker Bush Administration was frustrating his investigation because of U.S.-Saudi oil interests. The former Deputy Director of the FBI's New York counter-terrorism office was John O'Neill. Mr. O'Neill died at the World Trade Center in the attacks of 911.

Before he died, Mr. O'Neill visited with Mr. Jean-Charles Brisard, co-author of Forbidden Truth. One of Mr. O'Neill's quoted statements given us in Forbidden Truth by Mr. Brisard reads thusly:

“All of the answers, all of the clues allowing us to dismantle Osama bin Laden's organization, can be found in Saudi Arabia.” - John O'Neill.

~

Salute!
Elias



Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Bill St. Clair on April 12, 2006, 05:24:34 am
T.H.E. Cat,

I'm sure you meant no harm in posting what you did. I'm equally certain that it must have felt good to you-yourself to speak so candidly about your sentiments and reactions to what is being revealed on this thread. But I fear you've possibly gone a bit over-board with your exclamation of perceived justice. No one here is recommending that anyone shoot anyone for any reason. Shooting is not going to solve our problems at this time. But even talking about shooting anyone is an invitation to the criminals who're running the Federal government to take actions which I personally do not wish to endure.

Personally, I like the reminder. Claire herself has written somewhere that it's way past time, just not practical as yet. T.H.E. Cat asked a question. That is not a proposal or a threat. If someone were to answer in the affirmative, naming the bastard and the time, place, and method of its end, then we'd have a problem...

And I agree, intellectually, that education will work better in the long run than violence. But, damn, violence is sure tempting sometimes. And sometimes necessary in defense of self or family.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 12, 2006, 05:32:42 am

Personally, I like the reminder. Claire herself has written somewhere that it's way past time, just not practical as yet. T.H.E. Cat asked a question. That is not a proposal or a threat. If someone were to answer in the affirmative, naming the bastard and the time, place, and method of its end, then we'd have a problem...

And I agree, intellectually, that education will work better in the long run than violence. But, damn, violence is sure tempting sometimes. And sometimes necessary in defense of self or family.

Yeah, maybe you're right. And maybe I was being a mite too touchy. Thanks for pointing out for me the delicate distinction between the asking of a question and the actual making of a threat. Damn, my bad there. Bet I need a toke and a nap! :)

T.H.E. Cat, my apology for jumping you on that count. No harm intended - just being overly-guarded here.

Thanks to ye both,
Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Bill St. Clair on April 12, 2006, 05:51:08 am
Yeah, maybe you're right. And maybe I was being a mite too touchy. Thanks for pointing out for me the delicate distinction between the asking of a question and the actual making of a threat. Damn, my bad there. Bet I need a toke and a nap! :)

Your were being only a mite too touchy. The feds aren't beyond interpreting a question as a threat and stacking a jury to railroad the questioner and any associates they want to kidnap. Kinda makes you want to...
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: T.H.E. Cat on April 12, 2006, 08:36:09 am
T.H.E. Cat,

I'm sure you meant no harm in posting what you did. I'm equally certain that it must have felt good to you-yourself to speak so candidly about your sentiments and reactions to what is being revealed on this thread. But I fear you've possibly gone a bit over-board with your exclamation of perceived justice. No one here is recommending that anyone shoot anyone for any reason. Shooting is not going to solve our problems at this time. But even talking about shooting anyone is an invitation to the criminals who're running the Federal government to take actions which I personally do not wish to endure.

I'm sorry General. I guess I should have put in quotes that I was only jocking around of course. I don't mean to go out and shoot anybody. I don't advocate shooting first. Only time I'll shoot will be in self defense. Let me state here now very clearly that I do not evocate shooting anybody for any reason other that self defense in a life and death situtation. I hope this will clear that up.

Cat
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: T.H.E. Cat on April 12, 2006, 08:43:23 am
T.H.E. Cat,

.....if you see good reason to follow my advice, to go back to your dangerous post and remove or edit the part which places all of us in danger. Would you be willing to do that? If so, you have my salute and gratitude.



Done General sir. Reporting for KP duty sir. :icon_pale:

Cat
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 12, 2006, 12:07:47 pm
T.H.E. Cat,

.....if you see good reason to follow my advice, to go back to your dangerous post and remove or edit the part which places all of us in danger. Would you be willing to do that? If so, you have my salute and gratitude.



Done General sir. Reporting for KP duty sir. :icon_pale:

Cat


Salute and "At Ease!", T.H.E. Cat.

KP duty? No way, Dood! Ye get a permoshun and a seeegar 'n weekend liberty, to go along with my apology fer jumpin' ye too fast. All is well.

Tell ya something, Bro.... I'm as pissed as you are. The filth, the greed, the ugliness and the evil, and especially the insanity of the men in power over this nation for the past ninety-some years is an abomination. Every damned one of them since Woodrow Wilson (and, more truthfully, since Andrew Jackson - who may be the last honest man in the White House) has been in the pocket of the Illuminati, the money-masters. Every damned one of them has lied to the people and has worked this nation of trusting souls closer, administration by administration, into the snare of a one-world government, all the while the average good American citizen has worked his ass off generating a national wealth which these bastards have methodically stolen. That in itself would have been bad enough, but the bastards have also used our trust to implement for their own interests a US foreign Policy behind our backs which has caused the whole world to hate us - a fact to which Americans are only lately awakening. In our names they have murdered millions of people in other countries. According to former CIA official John Stockwell, the body count is over six million who've been murdered by illegal and immoral military and paramilitary operations conducted against third-world nations since the CIA was put in business. They are evil, T.H.E. Cat, which is why everything they do stinks. And they have lied to us, consistently and maliciously. They have substituted in their minds what you and I would call "sanity" for their wickedness which can only be called insanity, and the idiots believe that they're doing the right thing (most of 'em, anyway - some of them are just deliberately evil, like Felix Rodriquez and George Herbert Walker Bush and Bil Clinton et al) while they take this nation down from within and prep it for their goddamned military police state.

And here's the goddam truth - THEY fired the first shot, long long ago. If we lined them up and shot their asses on the steps of the Capitol today, it would be justifiable self-defense. You and me both know that. Their first clearly-recognizable shot came with a double-barreled explosion called the Federal Reserve and the Federal income tax. They started what we the people are gonna have to finish, unless we want slavery, torture, servitude, and extinction. Their true nature is exposed when anyone looks into Waco and Ruby Ridge and Enron and the S&L scandal and Vietnam and Korea and a million other idiocies - but most acutely, when one looks into their pack of lies about 911. I want this current generation of bastards to be brought to public trials and given appropriate sentences for mass murder, conspiracy, and treason, and I want their tactics, their abusiveness, their wickedness and their power-structures fully exposed around the world. I want "justice". I want to see America finally become the home of the brave and the land of the free, a concept which has never, not since day-one, been truly in place. End of mini-rant. :)

There is more power in the word than in their whole armament of evil.
I'm glad we're on the same side.
Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Junker on April 12, 2006, 12:22:06 pm
Salute!
Junker
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: farwest on April 12, 2006, 12:31:29 pm
I've found this all very interesting. I don't wish to hijack this thread either but let me say that every way you would look at Enron you would see corruption. I work in the electricity-generating business and everyone in the business knew that the grid was being manipulated in California to enrich certain parties. The current scam is going to be RTOs, regional transmission organizations, which will funnel hundreds of millions into insider pockets under the guise of making our electicity distribution system more reliable. I know it sounds funny coming from someone who works for a big power company but my advice to people is always to get themselves off the grid if they can. Some South African scientists have recently developed solar panels several levels beyond what we have now and anyone will be able to run their house off-grid with them- it will be interesting to see if this gets to the market or not.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: F42 on April 12, 2006, 12:33:30 pm
The wise will download a free PDF copy of the complete book before it disappears, as it will:

The Police State Road Map
March 2005 Edition
Michael Nield
www.policestateplanning.com

Contents

PREFACE 5

Part 1 THREE HUNDRED TRILLION DOLLARS AND COUNTING

Chapter 1 MONEY 10
1.1 The Money Magicians
1.2 The Banking Cartel

Chapter 2 THE GREAT TRUST 16
2.1 The Military-Industrial Complex
2.2 Five Monopolies
2.3 Who Owns the Stock?
2.4 Who Owns the Media?

Chapter 3 THE GREAT TRUST AND WESTERN FOREIGN POLICY 24
3.1 International Relations Policy Groups
3.2 Tax Exempt Foundations and Charity Funding
3.3 The IMF and World Bank
3.4 Control over Western Governments

Chapter 4 COMMUNISM AND FASCISM 32
4.1 The Heart of the Issue: Power and Property Rights
4.2 Lessons From History

Chapter 5 LESSER DEVELOPED COUNTRIES 38
5.1 Empowering Third World Governments
5.2 The Sell Off

Chapter 6 PRIVATIZATION IN THE WEST 43
6.1 Public Private Partnership
6.2 The Policy Comes from the Top

Part 2 THE ART OF KILLING QUIETLY

Chapter 7 THE ECONOMY 48
7.1 The Function of Poverty
7.2 Monetary and Fiscal Policy
7.3 Free Trade Agreements
7.4 Open Borders
7.5 The Environmental Movement
7.6 War as a Means of Planned Waste
7.7 Criminalizing Society
7.8 Disease

Chapter 8 THE NEW POLITICAL SYSTEM 78
8.1 The Future of Democracy
8.2 Banning Opposition to World Government
8.3 Creating Regional Governments
8.4 World Government or World War Three

Chapter 9 THE WAR ON TERROR 92
9.1 CIA/MI6/Mossad/ISI: The Global Terrorist Network
9.2 Proliferating Weapons of Mass Destruction

Chapter 10 MARTIAL LAW 99
10.1 Martial Law Legislation
10.2 Foreign Troops
10.3 Gun Confiscation

Chapter 11 THE LEGAL APPARATUS OF TOTALITARIANISM 109
11.1 Integration
11.2 UK Mental Health Laws
11.3 Abolition of Juries and Arbitrary Detention
11.4 Expanding the Definition of 'Terrorism'
11.5 Surveillance Legislation
11.6 The Ruling Class Above the Law

Chapter 12 THE TECHNOLOGICAL APPARATUS OF TOTALITARIANISM
12.1 ID Cards and Biometric Identification
12.2 Computer Databases
12.3 DNA Databases
12.4 Implantable Microchips
12.5 Radio Frequency Identification
12.6 Car and Mobile Phone Tracking
12.7 Surveillance Cameras
12.8 Black Budget Funding

Chapter 13 THE FAMILY AND RELIGION 143
13.1 Elitism and the New Age Religion
13.2 Caught in the Act at Bohemian Grove
13.3 Targeting the Young
13.4 Banning Monotheism
13.5 Enforcing Love of Big Brother
13.6 Sexual Abuse

Chapter 14 POPULATION CONTROL 150
14.1 Funding Population Control
14.2 Aims and Methods
14.3 Environmentalism
14.4 Public Health Policy and Western Medicine
14.5 Cancer
14.6 Vaccination
14.7 Mind Control Technology
14.8 Junk Food
14.9 Fluoride
14.10 Germ Warfare
14.11 Depleted Uranium
14.12 Forced Abortion and Sterilization
14.13 GM Food
14.14 Weather Modification
14.15 Nanotechnology
14.16 Eugenics

CONCLUSION 199

The Police State Road Map (March 2005 Edition) www.policestateplanning.com


Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: F42 on April 12, 2006, 12:45:24 pm
CFR President says: ''State sovereignty must be altered in globalized era''

In the age of globalization, states should give up some sovereignty to world bodies in order to protect their own interests

By Richard Haass
Taipei Times
Tuesday, Feb 21, 2006, Page 9

For 350 years, sovereignty -- the notion that states are the central actors on the world stage and that governments are essentially free to do what they want within their own territory but not within the territory of other states -- has provided the organizing principle of international relations. The time has come to rethink this notion.

The world's 190-plus states now co-exist with a larger number of powerful non-sovereign and at least partly (and often largely) independent actors, ranging from corporations to non-governmental organizations (NGOs), from terrorist groups to drug cartels, from regional and global institutions to banks and private equity funds. The sovereign state is influenced by them (for better and for worse) as much as it is able to influence them. The near monopoly of power once enjoyed by sovereign entities is being eroded.

As a result, new mechanisms are needed for regional and global governance that include actors other than states. This is not to argue that Microsoft, Amnesty International, or Goldman Sachs be given seats in the UN General Assembly, but it does mean including representatives of such organizations in regional and global deliberations when they have the capacity to affect whether and how regional and global challenges are met.

Less is more

Moreover, states must be prepared to cede some sovereignty to world bodies if the international system is to function. This is already taking place in the trade realm. Governments agree to accept the rulings of the WTO because on balance they benefit from an international trading order even if a particular decision requires that they alter a practice that is their sovereign right to carry out.

Some governments are prepared to give up elements of sovereignty to address the threat of global climate change. Under one such arrangement, the Kyoto Protocol, which runs through 2012, signatories agree to cap specific emissions. What is needed now is a successor arrangement in which a larger number of governments, including the US, China, and India, accept emissions limits or adopt common standards because they recognize that they would be worse off if no country did.

All of this suggests that sovereignty must be redefined if states are to cope with globalization. At its core, globalization entails the increasing volume, velocity, and importance of flows -- within and across borders -- of people, ideas, greenhouse gases, goods, dollars, drugs, viruses, e-mails, weapons and a good deal else, challenging one of sovereignty's fundamental principles: the ability to control what crosses borders in either direction. Sovereign states increasingly measure their vulnerability not to one another, but to forces beyond their control. Globalization thus implies that sovereignty is not only becoming weaker in reality, but that it needs to become weaker. States would be wise to weaken sovereignty in order to protect themselves, because they cannot insulate themselves from what goes on elsewhere. Sovereignty is no longer a sanctuary...

This was demonstrated by the American and world reaction to terrorism. Afghanistan's Taliban government, which provided access and support to al-Qaeda, was removed from power. Similarly, the US' preventive war against an Iraq that ignored the UN and was thought to possess weapons of mass destruction showed that sovereignty no longer provides absolute protection.

Imagine how the world would react if some government were known to be planning to use or transfer a nuclear device or had already done so. Many would argue -- correctly -- that sovereignty provides no protection for that state.

Necessity may also lead to reducing or even eliminating sovereignty when a government, whether from a lack of capacity or conscious policy, is unable to provide for the basic needs of its citizens. This reflects not simply scruples, but a view that state failure and genocide can lead to destabilizing refugee flows and create openings for terrorists to take root.

The NATO intervention in Kosovo was an example where a number of governments chose to violate the sovereignty of another government (Serbia) to stop ethnic cleansing and genocide. By contrast, the mass killing in Rwanda a decade ago and now in Darfur, Sudan, demonstrate the high price of judging sovereignty to be supreme and thus doing little to prevent the slaughter of innocents.

Conditions needed

Our notion of sovereignty must therefore be conditional, even contractual, rather than absolute. If a state fails to live up to its side of the bargain by sponsoring terrorism, either transferring or using weapons of mass destruction, or conducting genocide, then it forfeits the normal benefits of sovereignty and opens itself up to attack, removal or occupation.

The diplomatic challenge for this era is to gain widespread support for principles of state conduct and a procedure for determining remedies when these principles are violated.

The goal should be to redefine sovereignty for the era of globalization, to find a balance between a world of fully sovereign states and an international system of either world government or anarchy.

The basic idea of sovereignty, which still provides a useful constraint on violence between states, needs to be preserved. But the concept needs to be adapted to a world in which the main challenges to order come from what global forces do to states and what governments do to their citizens rather than from what states do to one another.

Richard Haass is president of the Council on Foreign Relations and the author of The Opportunity: America's Moment to Alter History's Course.

Link-->> http://sianews.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2850

Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: F42 on April 12, 2006, 12:48:09 pm
9/11 Synthetic Terror: Made in USA (WG Tarpley)

Full text, PDF doc 2.3 MBs, get it, read it, propagate it. Good book.

http://rapidshare.de/files/15543831/...n_USA.pdf.html
(at that page, PGDN, click the "Free" button at the bottom of the table, page advances, PGDN, wait for the countdown, enter the funny code pictured, download file).

Amazon listing, 21 reviews, average 5 stars, check them out for an overview.

Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: henshawe on April 12, 2006, 01:49:17 pm
G'Day All,

Thanks for the links f42, captured the police State pdf, however the file for 9/11 Synthetic Terror desplays the following notice, tried several times and get the same notice

File /files/15543831/...n_USA.pdf.html not found.

Is there another link?

Regards,

Americus
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on April 12, 2006, 02:20:26 pm
...
They are evil
...
Salute!
Elias

Heh. Interesting debate on that in another thread. I'm not even sure any more if I think they are evil or just sociopathic.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: T.H.E. Cat on April 12, 2006, 06:07:42 pm
Salute and "At Ease!", T.H.E. Cat.

KP duty? No way, Dood! Ye get a permoshun and a seeegar 'n weekend liberty, to go along with my apology fer jumpin' ye too fast. All is well.


Yahoo a weekend with my Bunny. Thanks Gernral.

Now back to the thread.

Cat
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: F42 on April 12, 2006, 08:08:33 pm
G'Day All,

Thanks for the links f42, captured the police State pdf, however the file for 9/11 Synthetic Terror desplays the following notice, tried several times and get the same notice

File /files/15543831/...n_USA.pdf.html not found.

Is there another link?

Regards,

Americus


I have it on my server. But I am limited on band width. If you can't get it at the site I posted send me a PM. I'll schedule all requests.

henshawe, I'll PM you with the url.

f42

Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: hypoluxo on April 13, 2006, 12:43:08 am
G'Day All,

Thanks for the links f42, captured the police State pdf, however the file for 9/11 Synthetic Terror desplays the following notice, tried several times and get the same notice

File /files/15543831/...n_USA.pdf.html not found.

Is there another link?

Regards,

Americus


Also available at http://www.indymedia.org.uk/media/2005/07/317436.pdf
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: F42 on April 13, 2006, 06:34:05 am
Thanks for the link hypoluxo. Job well done...

f42

Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 13, 2006, 09:58:09 am
Thanks for the link to Tarpley's "Synthetic Terror"!

My hard-copy book arrived in Three Forks this week, having been ordered last week. I have not got into Three Forks yet to pick it up; so this link is a delicious pre-taste of one of my favorite author's works. Tarpley, as you know, co-wrote "George Bush: The Unauthorized Biography" with Anton Chaitkin back in 1992 - a book which simply won't go away. (It was re-issued in a new edition last year (2005). Tarpley is also on an excellent video which I possess here, produced by Jimmy Walter. That video is called:
Confronting The Evidence.
http://www.plaguepuppy.net/public_html/Confronting%20the%20Evidence/
and to order your free copy -
http://www.reopen911.org/

In that film, Tarpley is seated as a panelist, one of many, and only has a limited time to speak, but what he does get squeezed into his time is powerful stuff. Also on this film are Jeff King and Colonel Bowman, the "Star Wars" anti-missile defense system insider who has come out publicly stating that he believes Vice President Cheney was involved in the execution of 911. (Damn, Michael Ruppert and your humble servant are lately being joined by some superb voices! I love it!) Anyway, go get this free film right after you read Tarpley's free book. Free, free, free..... I guess information just wants to be free, lol!

In recent times I have drawn heavily from Tarpley's work, and I am very pleased to find this online version of his latest. It is, however, a bit of a broadside for me, personally, because it renders almost anything I might say un-necessary, subjecting my intuitions to a rear seat on the bus of truth, leaving me with little to do aside from scratching my head in marvel at Tarpley's methodical step-by-step pilgrimage to the spiritual throne of reality. Here is an example:

"9/11 was an example of state-sponsored, false-flag, synthetic terrorism,
hereinafter called synthetic terrorism. My thesis is that the 9/11 events were organized
and directed by a rogue network of high government and military officials of the United
States, with a certain participation by the intelligence agencies of Britain and Israel, and
with a more general backup from the intelligence agencies of the other Echelon states
(Australia, New Zealand, Canada). This US network represents the current form of the
Dulles Brothers-Lemnitzer-Landsdale network of the early 1960s, of the Bay of Pigs-
Kennedy assassination-Gulf of Tonkin networks of a slightly later era, and of the
invisible government/secret government/parallel government/shadow government that
was widely understood to have been the prime mover of the Iran-contra affair. The 9/11
rogue network subsumed some of the asteroids of the 1990s, that is to say, the privatized
intelligence enterprises operating under Reagan’s executive order 12333. The September
criminals were financiers, top-level bureaucrats, flag-rank military officers, top
intelligence officials, and technical specialists; the prime focus of their operations was in
all probability a series of private sector locations, where confidentiality could be best
assured by excluding elements loyal to the constitution. It is therefore probably
misleading to think of people like Cheney as the hand-on field commanders of the
terrorist forces of 9/11, although Cheney appears to have been complicit in other ways.
Bush was expendable enough to undergo an assassination attempt that morning; he owes
his continued tenure in office to his speedy capitulation to the demands of the September
criminals. As time has gone on, Bush has undoubtedly learned something more about the
invisible government he allowed to take over his administration. By 2004, Bush had to be
considered as witting as it was possible for a person of his faculties to be about the basic
facts of terrorism." ~ Webster Tarpley

While I enjoy collecting wonderful works in hard-copy because they feel good in the hand and are most convincing conversational tools when I am visited by inquirers here at my hideout, I find that being able to copy/paste from such sources is the more expedient benefactor of my online work. Example: In a previous post here I have typed in major sections from "Forbidden Truth: US - Taliban Secret Oil Diplomacy And The Failed Hunt For Bin Laden", a task which took some time and would have been better blessed had I been able to find that data/info already in pixel format. My take on "common sense" includes the premise that each serious student of 911 shall not only download this book, Synthetic Terror,  immediately and save it in multiple places/ways, but shall also support this level of excellent work by purchasing a hard-copy version of the book. I agree with Barry Zwicker, that Tarpley is the man to write the most definitive work on the most important history known to man.

F42, my Salute! for bringing the book to our attention here. And hypoluxo, my Salute! for furnishing a link which even I could use for downloading the entire book. :)

I would just say this - anyone who thinks he truly wants to know the truth of 911, but who also thinks he hasn't the time to read Tarpley's Synthetic Terror, is deluding himself.  Now, thanks to Tarpley himself and to our friends here who've brought us the link, the truth of 911 is available to every reader of this thread. I have not finished reading the book yet, but hope this weekend shall furnish me the necessary time for completing that pleasant task. I have, however, read George Bush: The Unauthorized Biography, which itself exists as the certain promise that Tarpley's current work shall satisfy any questions by anyone regarding 911 by dishing up the best-documented and most-thoroughly-rendered compositional collage of the truth of 911.

For those who are collecting online books:
http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm

Note: Chapter 18 on Iran-Contra is the best chronology of the creation of the secret government I've to date found. I encourage everyone here to download this book as well as Synthetic Terror - and to support Mr. Tarpley's courageous and informed works by purchasing your own hard-copy versions. In fact, I also encourage everyone to spread these two books all over the place....

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 13, 2006, 10:03:58 am
I've found this all very interesting. I don't wish to hijack this thread either but let me say that every way you would look at Enron you would see corruption. I work in the electricity-generating business and everyone in the business knew that the grid was being manipulated in California to enrich certain parties. The current scam is going to be RTOs, regional transmission organizations, which will funnel hundreds of millions into insider pockets under the guise of making our electicity distribution system more reliable. I know it sounds funny coming from someone who works for a big power company but my advice to people is always to get themselves off the grid if they can. Some South African scientists have recently developed solar panels several levels beyond what we have now and anyone will be able to run their house off-grid with them- it will be interesting to see if this gets to the market or not.

Great points, farwest. Of course, it was an unfortunate mishap that so many of the Enron records and investigational documentations were destroyed in the colapses of the WTC buildings on 911.... a mere coincidence, I'm sure, drat the luck!

Regarding those African solar panels, I've heard rumors to that effect recently, and I'd sure like to know more. You wouldn't chance to have a link, would you?

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 13, 2006, 10:12:28 am
Salute!
Junker

Heh! Salute back! :)

It sorta looks like we're gonna win this battle for the truth, ya think? To quote - again - our brother in liberty, Basil Fishbone, "The powers that be have lost control over the flow of information."

Thanks for all your support and assistance, Junker.

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: F42 on April 13, 2006, 10:26:35 am
Just to clear up all the links to Tarpley's new Book here they are :

http://rapidshare.de/files/15543831/Tarpley-_911_synthetic_terror_made_in_USA.pdf.html

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/media/2005/07/317436.pdf

http://www.the3006cafe.org/stuff/Tarpley_911_synthetic_terror_made_in_USA.pdf

My bad for using a compressed link that wouldn't resolve. Promise to be more careful in the future.

f42

 
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 13, 2006, 10:29:41 am
CFR President says: ''State sovereignty must be altered in globalized era''

In the age of globalization, states should give up some sovereignty to world bodies in order to protect their own interests

By Richard Haass
Taipei Times
Tuesday, Feb 21, 2006, Page 9

For 350 years, sovereignty -- the notion that states are the central actors on the world stage and that governments are essentially free to do what they want within their own territory but not within the territory of other states -- has provided the organizing principle of international relations. The time has come to rethink this notion....

Link-->> http://sianews.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2850


Once again, nice work F42. I've got a special place for this declaration of treason by the head of the CFR, and I thank you sincerely for sharing it here.  It pretty much sums up the motive behind not only the current border problem but America's dilemma of disintegration in general, including the motive behind government-sponsored terrorism. Carry on, Bro!

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 15, 2006, 09:35:33 am


Beginning a Summation:

The Bank of International Settlements, created on January 20, 1930,  is at Basle, Switzerland, and it functions as the central bank for all national-level central banks. It is above any nationality, it is not subject to any national law, it is inviolable, and it is authorized to conduct its affairs in total secrecy. This mysterious bank is the most powerful bank on earth, and has literally no oversight by anyone anywhere outside its own offices. The bank may transfer funds in total secrecy, from one nation's central bank to another nation's central bank.

The Bank of International Settlements functions on a monetary unit of exchange called the Standard Drawing Right (SDR). The SDR is hierarchically the parent to the Euro, the Dollar, and the Yen (or whichever monetary unit name comes finally to be used in the Asian region, a selection which has not been forged at this time). Plans exist to consolidate thirty-four nation-states in the Western Hemisphere in a regional union similar to that of the European Union. That union is called the FTAA (Free Trade Area of the Americas). When the FTAA becomes legal reality, the regional monetary system for the Western Hemisphere, including the USA, shall become the “Amero”. (That name, “Amero”, is at this time subject to being changed, but that is the name thus far planned for Western Hemisphere money.)

Below the Bank of International Settlements on the monetary/economic pyramid of global control exist the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank. Below them exist the various central banks of approximately one hundred-eighty-four member nations. The Federal Reserve System, Inc., is the central bank of the USA. Its twelve member banks set the policy for all U.S. banking, excepting small independent banks, local credit unions and such, of which there are few. The Federal Reserve System, Inc., regulates the extent of the U.S. national debt, sets and determines interest rates, and creates, and then regulates, the rate of “inflation”. This affects every aspect of your and my daily life, both directly and indirectly.

Below the central bank level on the global pyramid of power are the corporate entities which use banks as instruments of power and leverage and facilitation. On this level we find the corporate executive and the corporate board-member and the corporate investor. Also on this level we find the career-motivated  corporate employee who is predisposed to believe in the power pyramid and strives to advance upward in the course of his career, hoping and planing to move ever closer to the higher levels nearer the top. This person signifies the foot-soldiers under the command of the corporate officers, who themselves are the foot-soldiers of the central banking masters, who themselves are the foot-soldiers of the international financiers such as Rockefeller, Schiff, Warburg, Rothschild, and their circles.

Paralleling that infrastructural hierarchy is the authority infrastructure composing the national governments which are regulated by the central banks.  Governments are necessary executors of financial will, at this time in history. Governments are, as we shall see, known by the financiers to be mere staging units which shall soon enough be replaced, after consolidation into the desired one world government, by “corporate sectors”. Governments possess the only legitimized mechanisms of destruction which can be called into action whenever the international financiers seek to achieve the consolidation of more power by means of war. These mechanisms of destruction are, under the flag of each nation-state, called “the military”. Governments also dictate and disperse mass-behavior systems under nationalized applications of something which cannot at present times exist without governments – that mass-behavior control system which in each nation-state is referred to as: “laws”.

Governments are used by central banks to regulate industry, agriculture, transportation, communications, maintenance and venting, scientific research and development, ecological and conservation methodologies, economies and monetary systems, and cultural-societal structures and interfaces among the workforces and general populations of their respective nation-states.

One of the most valued and dearly-prized functions of governments esteemed by the international financiers who manipulate and regulate all governments, however, is the ability of any national government to promote deception in the minds and perceptions of the public which each government governs. Without deception and mis-perception, slavery cannot exist. Without slavery, the international financiers cannot accumulate, employ, and enjoy their stolen wealth. Governments have traditionally enforced and reinforced mis-perception in their masses by the enforcement of a process known as “taxation”. The payment of taxes, at the individual level, reinforces the entire false perception of the authority of government as being externalized outside the individual self. Contemporaneously with that feat comes the denial of the existence or possibility of a conspiracy by a small group of international financiers whose existence depends upon that mis-perception and denial as held in the mind of the common man.

Beneath the national government level on the pyramid of power, and working in conjunction with the corporate sector on that same level, we find the “special interest lobby”. In America that phenomenon includes the health industry lobby with its attendant pharmaceutical phase, medical phase, and available power-action concentrations such as the AMA and FDA; the labor lobby; the education lobby NEA and etc.); the media lobby; the transportation lobby; the air-space lobby; the communications lobby; the industrial lobby; the Defense Contractor lobby; the Agriculture lobby; the political party lobby; and many others. Also on this level we find private-sector think tank collectives such as the CFR, Trilateral Commission, the Project For A New American Century (PNAC) and many others, each of which seeks to influence governmental and societal “policy”. And, also on this level we find the infamous “tax-exempt Foundatons” such as Ford, Carnegie, Rockefeller, et al.

All of the above listed degrees of hierarchy exist atop the pyramid of power which is ruled by the owners and executors of the Bank of International Settlements. Those “owners” have a symbol which they value highly, and you may find that symbol on the back of your one-dollar bill. It is the unfinished pyramid, above which sits the all-seeing eye of the Illuminati, and below which sits the latin phrase, “Novus Ordo Seclorum”, which translates loosely as “new order of the world”. Go ahead – look at a one-dollar bill right now and see for yourself. It is hard and fast reality, and it is in your hand every day. It is the message of externalized control sent to the individual sovereign soul as sign, sooth, and signet, the candid symbol sent to you and to me from the very people who fancy themselves to be the over-lords of our very lives.

Looking further down our thread here we see that I had quoted H.G. Wells in his book, “The Open Conspiracy”, published in 1928:

“This gives us a large portion of the existing civilized world in which men's minds may be readjusted to the idea that their existing governments are in the position of trustees for the greater government of the coming age. Throughout these communities it is conceivable that the structural lines of the world community may be materialized and established with only minor struggles, local boycotts, vigorous public controversies, normal legislative obstruction, social pressure, and overt political activities.”
 
Wells, formerly a Fabian Socialist, was explaining to the informed insiders in the wake of World War One how one task of the globalizing socialist bankers was to “readjust men's minds” to the notion that they would have to give up their notions of nationalism, whereupon those national sentiments would be replaced by world-citizenship instead of national citizenship. Wells viewed the coming one-world government to be the “greater government of the coming age”.  He notes that forcing the individual citizen of the various nation-states to relinquish their sense of national and individual sovereignty would include the suffering by the globalists of minor setbacks, such as “local boycotts, vigorous public controversies, normal legislative obstruction, social pressure, and overt political activities”.

To combat these, some controls were deemed by the globalists to be necessary. Of course they had long known that their control over any government's power to issue money was paramount, but another of their goals toward that end was to infiltrate the U.S. State Department, which they did forthwith, and from which they have never withdrawn.

Thus far in this thread we have seen that another step taken by the globalizing socialist bankers was the establishing of and the taking over of American education. This they have successfully done. But another step they have taken, which I have not touched on here yet, was the creation of and subsequent control over the American Medical Association (AMA). I hope to get into that can of worms with this thread, but am not sure at this time if it will fit into the thread comfortably – there is only so much space and time. However, suffice presently to say that the same tax-exempt Foundations which gave us the Federal income tax and the Federal Reserve and the NEA also gave us the AMA. To do this, they literally created what I call the “medical industry”, and their medical industry, which treats cancer with surgery, radiation, and chemotherapy while forbidding any holistic and/or naturopathic approach to healing cancer, is a multi-billion dollar annual industry which is symbolized by state-of-the-art hospital complexes, medical education campuses, and massive insurance lobbies. One of the more blatant goals of this triad of trepidation has just been realized with the Massachusetts law requiring every citizen of that state to purchase “health insurance”. (Look for that to become the national trend very soon.)

Perhaps one of the more astonishing things which we've looked into on this thread thus far has to do with the occult influence which registers in the mentality and psychology of the globalizing socialist bankers. I have introduced the topic of Bohemian Grove, but have not yet brought forth the abundance of info pertinent to that topic, nor have I gone back to the original Conspiracy Theory thread to dredge up the stuff about Skull and Bones, which ties into the globalist conspiracy to own the world. Preparations for that are in the works, however, and actually have begun on this thread already with the mentioning of Cecil Rhodes and his view of Empire for the British. You see, a number of the international financiers and their families are deeply involved in occult things, and not in a good way.

Example: When W. H. Russell went to Europe in 1831 he visited the Warburg Institute of the Occult in both Berlin and in London. Recall, the House of Warburg works in close cahoots with the House of Rothschild and with the House of Rockefeller. Paul M. Warburg was one of the conspirators at Jekyll Island in 1910, at which time he was representing the Kuhn-Loeb (Rothschild and Schiff) banking interests into the Federal Reserve. W. H. Russell returned to the USA in 1832 after getting a dose of occult death-worship stupidity stuffed into his head, and forthwith created at Yale University the entity known as the “Russell Trust”, which was later incorporated and which was the secret society at Yale named “Skull and Bones”. That is undebatable history and is a part of the psychology which motivates the globalists of the New World Order. And that is why there is a strong presence at Bohemian Grove of the Skull and Bones society. I wouldn't care one whit about any of this, except that these are the sons of bitches who are running the civilized world today, complete with Genome Project ownership and nuclear, chemical, and biological warfare toys which they enjoy sharing with governments and their specially-created “terrorist networks” like al Qaeda.

Because of their concentrated powers, their views on death-cult rituals and human sacrifice rituals and eugenics has me alarmed. So I intend to focus on that part of the conspiracy in greater depth as the thread unfolds. I know that topic itself is unpleasant reading and smacks of the downright unbelievable, but I'm afraid it's true and is a part of the mentality which would love nothing more than to eliminate several billion of us off their planet plantation and subject the remaining survivors to slavery. Sadly, I am certain that to deny this aspect of global rulership is at this late date in history simply fatal. They really do want billions of us off their planet, and they now have the means to accomplish that quickly. What is happening in America today is but a speck of what they envision for the whole world.

Since that is a strong statement indeed, I should add the qualifier that there is a lot of stuff which we have not even touched on to date with this thread. One example, which I've been trying to get prepared for presentation here, has to do with “weather control”. Seen any chemtrails lately? Know what those wicked things are all about? If not, get ready to grok another strange twist on our conspiracy theory, because I'm almost ready to post that here. This weekend for sure.

Okay. That's it for this post. There is more on the thread to sum up, but I think I'll finish up some posts I've already got started for this thread before summing up more. I would like to thank each participant on this thread. The posts are dated evidence of our desire to seek the truth about what is behind. To celebrate our determination to solve the conspiracy which would enslave us in a totalitarian police-state I will post directly under this post a segment from George Washington's farewell speech from 1796.

Salute!
Elias

Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 15, 2006, 09:46:39 am

America's first President was George Washington. His farewell speech of 1796 was largely an appeal to citizens of all the several states to honor and embrace the Federal union, but the speech contains some excellent material treating of “foreign policy”. Let's read just that portion of the speech here, and let us recall Washington's words of wisdom regarding “foreign entanglements” when we go about our day today as modern Americans caught up in a global war on terror – and let us wonder to ourselves after reading this if we as a nation of moral human beings would not have inherited a better nation and world had our “leaders” during the past century paid heed to Washington's admonitions.

Begin quoted excerpts from George Washington's farewell speech of 1796:
.....
As a very important source of strength and security, cherish public credit. One method of preserving it is to use it as sparingly as possible, avoiding occasions of expense by cultivating peace, but remembering also that timely disbursements to prepare for danger frequently prevent much greater disbursements to repel it; avoiding likewise the accumulation of debt, not only by shunning occasions of expense, but by exertions in time of peace to discharge the debts which unavoidable wars have occasioned, not ungenerously throwing upon posterity the burthen which we ourselves ought to bear.

Observe good faith and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and morality enjoin this conduct. And can it be that good policy does not equally enjoin it? It will be worthy of a free, enlightened, and at no distant period a great nation to give to mankind the magnanimous and too novel example of a people always guided by an exalted justice and benevolence. Who can doubt that in the course of time and things the fruits of such a plan would richly repay any temporary advantage which might be lost by a steady adherence to it? Can it be that Providence has not connected the permanent felicity of a nation with its virtue? The experiment, at least, is recommended by every sentiment which ennobles human nature. Alas! is it rendered impossible by its vices?

In the execution of such a plan nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations and passionate attachments for others should be excluded, and that in place of them just and amicable feelings toward all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges toward another an habitual hatred or an habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur.

So, likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others, which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill will, and a disposition to retaliate in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld; and it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation) facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country without odium, sometimes even with popularity, gilding with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.

Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy, to be useful, must be impartial, else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people to surrender their interests.

The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is, in extending our commercial relations to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop.

Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.


Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people, under an efficient government, the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.

Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor, or caprice?

It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world, so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it; for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements. I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs that honesty is always the best policy. I repeat, therefore, let those engagements be observed in their genuine sense. But in my opinion it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them.

Taking care always to keep ourselves by suitable establishments on a respectable defensive posture, we may safely trust to temporary alliances for extraordinary emergencies.

Harmony, liberal intercourse with all nations are recommended by policy, humanity, and interest. But even our commercial policy should hold an equal and impartial hand, neither seeking nor granting exclusive favors or preferences; consulting the natural course of things; diffusing and diversifying by gentle means the streams of commerce, but forcing nothing; establishing with powers so disposed, in order to give trade a stable course, to define the rights of our merchants, and to enable the Government to support them, conventional rules of intercourse, the best that present circumstances and mutual opinion will permit, but temporary and liable to be from time to time abandoned or varied as experience and circumstances shall dictate; constantly keeping in view that it is folly in one nation to look for disinterested favors from another; that it must pay with a portion of its independence for whatever it may accept under that character; that by such acceptance it may place itself in the condition of having given equivalents for nominal favors, and yet being reproached with ingratitude for not giving more. There can be no greater error than to expect or calculate upon real favors from nation to nation. It is an illusion which experience must cure, which a just pride ought to discard.
.....
~End excerpt from George Washington's Farewell Speech of 1796.

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 15, 2006, 11:10:43 pm
From Pravda in the year 2003...

http://english.pravda.ru/main/2003/01/15/42068.html

... we read:

“.... A lot of specialists and scientists believe that a special American program HAARP is one of those developments. American scientist Bernard Eastlund is considered to be the godfather of this program. He received the patent for the method and for the device to measure the layers of the Earth atmosphere, the ionosphere and/or the magnetosphere. It is an open secret that the USA (probably, not the USA alone) has already constructed high-frequency transmitter facilities. Those devices can heat the earth environment up to the state of plasma by means of pumping ions. This makes it possible to control the environment, which might show considerable influence on the atmospheric phenomena. The owners of this weapon are able to program floods, twisters and storms, even earthquakes in any region of the planet. It is also possible to paralyze civil and military electric surveillance systems, and even to affect the mentality of whole nations.
“However, neither American politicians and scientists, nor the world community know, if it is going to be possible to stop the work of the geophysical weapon, if it is used at its full capacity. This is the major problem. It is quite possible that the first full capacity use of the geophysical weapon might end up in a global catastrophe. Does it seem to be science fiction? Not really, as a matter of fact. High frequency transmitter facilities already exist. They are located in Norway and at an army base in Alaska. The short description of the program and some photographs can be found on the official site Haarp.alaska.edu. Another high power transmitter facility, a more powerful one, is going to be put into operation in Greenland soon. When this happens, the geophysical weapon will be capable of covering Eurasia from the Atlantic to the Pacific coast.”

~

Of what, exactly, were those pesky, nosey Russians speaking? The article mentioned a “geophysical weapon”. It mentioned heating up the earth's environment to the state of “plasma”. It mentioned paralyzing electric surveillance systems. It mentioned high-frequency transmitters. It mentioned a potential to affect the mentality of whole nations. That is all fairly heady stuff, even considering it came from the notoriously suspicious Russians. But the article gives the website for HAARP.
Oddly, the official HAARP website is at the University of Alaska website. Let that one sink in for a moment.
 
In going to the HAARP site given in that article, we find this:
http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/haarp/ohd.html

(http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/haarp/images/ohd.jpg)
From the official HAARP site we read: “This is an aerial photograph, looking east, of the HAARP Ionospheric Research Facility which is currently under development at a site 8 miles north of Gakona, Alaska. The photograph was taken from a small general aviation plane during the summer 1997.”

That is a curiosity which is either a hoax perpetrated by the Administration of the University of Alaska or it is an actual photograph of a mysterious government installation which is affectionately named:

HIGH FREQUENCY ACTIVE AURORAL RESEARCH PROGRAM

I think it is real. But - if it is real, what on earth does it do? To look into high-frequency active auroral research, I turned to the Air Force 2025 study, among other sources, where I found that certain commands in the U.S. military are keenly interested in learning all about weather control, just as the Russians feared. The U.S. military is also interested in discovering usages for certain layers of the atmosphere for various military and security purposes. They are investigating the ionosphere, among other “spheres”.

When we speak of controlling the weather, we may be messing around pretty close to certain lines laid down by Mother Nature.

What the Russians feared most was the possibility of this weapon being used to control weathers and then subsequently going out of control itself. Chernobyl may have wised-up some Russians to the downside of militarized technological applications of pure science. An optimist would surely hope that Russia's counterparts here in America would also learn from the mistakes of Chernobyl. There is, however, little evidence which would suggest that our military brass have slowed down in their greed-fest enough to take stock of what they're now playing with. If readers here are not already concerned about this subject, I suggest a day of fasting accompanied by a day devoted to looking up the information, some little portion of which I shall place here as a “nutshell” version.

As noted, the US military has not recognized that downside from which Russians learned valuable lessons from Chernobyl, despite what is happening to our military personnel who have been exposed to Depleted Uranium. Generals and Admirals are sometimes slow learners when the subject to be ascertained involves downsizing military force in general and defense contracting specifically. Any time Generals and Admirals fail to find a pretext which could justify spending a few billion more tax dollars on things which go boom in the night, they lose their friends. And they risk losing their jobs. It is a part of the way in which the game is played on Capitol Hill and on Wall Street in the Pentagon style.

There are three major areas of investigation to be looked into here. HAARP itself; Depleted Uranium as racial suicide; and Chemtrails as the magic carpet on which certain planetary death now rides above our lives. With HAARP we also must look into a little project called Air Force 2025. That, in and of itself, deserves more than a book, but I shall try to be brief here. I must ask the reader's indulgence as I attempt to lay all this out. Let's first go back to the HAARP website, and read from this link:
~Begin quoted passages from this link:
http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/haarp/tech.html

The HAARP Ionospheric Research facility will be a major Arctic facility for conducting upper atmospheric research. The facility will consist of two essential parts:
1.A high power transmitter and antenna array operating in the High Frequency (HF) range. When complete, the transmitter will be capable of producing up to 3.6 million Watts to an antenna system consisting of 180 crossed dipole antennas arranged as a rectangular, planar array.
2.A complete and extensive set of scientific instruments for observation of both the background auroral ionosphere and of the effects produced during active research using the transmitter system. Output from these instruments will be combined into an integrated data package which will be available world-wide in near real time over the internet.
During active ionospheric research, the signal generated by the transmitter system is delivered to the antenna array, transmitted in an upward direction, and is partially absorbed, at an altitude between 100 to 350 km (depending on operating frequency), in a small volume a few hundred meters thick and a few tens of kilometers in diameter over the site. The intensity of the HF signal in the ionosphere is less than 3 microwatts per cm2, tens of thousands of times less than the Sun's natural electromagnetic radiation reaching the earth and hundreds of times less than even the normal random variations in intensity of the Sun's natural ultraviolet (UV) energy which creates the ionosphere. The small effects that are produced, however, can be observed with the sensitive scientific instruments installed at the HAARP facility and these observations can provide new information about the dynamics of plasmas and new insight into the processes of solar-terrestrial interactions.


To look at some of this technology at the HAARP facility we may click here:
http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/haarp/images/ant/tpile.jpg
and here:
http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/haarp/images/diag/isnd1.jpg
and here:
http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/haarp/HaarpSite.html

Now. Before going further, I would like to take a break and go to the Willow Creek Saloon where my good friends who comprise Montana's finest band, Montana Rose, are playing tonight.  While I'm away, looking to get a little living out of life for a moment, I would love to think that readers here are taking the time to hit the links above and read/view the content. Tomorrow, (Sunday), I shall open this topic again by looking at some insanity called “Air Force 2025”. After that, we'll look into another pool of insanity called Depleted Uranium. And after we've looked at all three of these related phenomena in the briefest way, I shall once again compose a brief summation of the thread's contents to see if I can get all the various topics herein to reveal their relationships with the greater conspiracy.

My apologies for asking serious students of the topic which I call "government-sponsored terrorism" to wade through so much seemingly unrelated stuff. I remind myself that the preparation of a perception is necessary, however, since most Americans have literally no capability to grasp what this thread needs to convey, and so I feel compelled to at least provide to this thread enough varied subjects which I hope shall provide that perception. In going where this shall lead us, we are going to go to heights which most Americans may never know or see or imagine. I want to take us to the top of the power pyramid, and into the cold black heart of the conspiracy which has produced, directed, funded, organized, and executed what Webster Tarpley has coined “Synthetic Terrorism: Made In The USA”.

I do promise to finally get to the nitty-gritty of who orchestrated and carried out the attacks of 911 (the Players), how they did it (the means and logistics and science), why they did it (motive), and how the globalizing socialist bankers have used 911 to consolidate immense governmental powers on the international scale as well as here in the coming Martial Law / Police State America. I thank each of you for your patience, and for reading.

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: T.H.E. Cat on April 16, 2006, 10:52:01 am
Elias,

You mentioned HARRP. Did you know that a book was written about that. I have it buried some where with my other books. I'll try and find it.

Cat
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 16, 2006, 01:11:19 pm
Elias,

You mentioned HARRP. Did you know that a book was written about that. I have it buried some where with my other books. I'll try and find it.

Cat

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/103-5500973-4586208?%5Fencoding=UTF8&dym=0&search-type=ss&index=stripbooks%3Arelevance-above&field-keywords=Angels%20Don%27t%20Play%20This%20HAARP

Unfortunately, I don't have either of these books. But I shall soon. When I first heard of the book "Angels Don't Play This Haarp" I scoffed it because it sounded like some silly-assed conspiracy theory.  Now I wish I'd have ordered it years ago.

My life has been one long series of changes, and so has my mind. What I see today would have appeared ridiculous to me just six years ago. Especially anything which smacked of "government conspiracy". What I understand today seemed to be paranoid neurosis six years ago. Fortunately, as a beatnik many years ago, I learned to value open-mindedness - and, although I'm sometimes slow to catch on to something "new", given time I usually come around to it.

I note today that since discovering the Internet in 1999 my perceptions of reality have altered greatly. And I recall amid smiles today that I had to sort through a whole lot of stuff which hit me like a tidal wave once I had got myself online. Today, looking back over the previous six years, I realize I had lived most of my life in a dream state, a perpetually-reinforced condition of denial. In trying to understand how that had been possible, I have learned that there is no tangible way to ascertain wakeful conscious awareness, its presence or its absence. Therefore I must realize that for all I know today, I may yet be in a dream-state - a dream-state which includes as part of its context of existence the urge to believe that the dream is real, same as I was before I discovered the Internet.

What can we make of that, T.H.E. Cat? :)
Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Jack Boone on April 16, 2006, 07:45:15 pm
I have carefully studied the HAARP photo posted by Elias.  If it's real, the two lane road to/from Gakona, Alaska runs right to left across the middle.  The multi-story building is clearly visible from the road, although one can't see the antenna farm.  No signs indicate that one is on a military base.  I think the photo is real.

Jack Boone
Eagle, Alaska
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 17, 2006, 05:32:02 am

2025

Little Tweety Birds Of A Feather

~

Down South where I grew up people used to often say this phrase when asked how they came to know a certain thing: “A little tweety bird told me.” They would usually accompany that with a smile, a sort of “gotcha!” smile which implied that they knew they had the high ground so long as they kept their information to themselves, and no amount of prying on my part was going to wrestle out an honest answer. It was a common expression when I was growing up. I see the same gamemanship going on with the Federal government today.

Since nobody in government will admit this, or say from whence such policy emanates, I'm left to believe that a little tweety bird told the government to take this planet and run the thing in the good ol' American way, for the good of mankind; and it appears that the government agreed. Leaders in government at the highest levels have been attempting to do just that for quite some time, for longer than most Americans would believe. When other little tweety birds saw that the first little tweety bird's chirpful cheerful message was duly taken to heart by high officials inside the government, they joined to form a chorus of many little tweety birds singing in the government's collective ear.  That has been going on for quite some time. It grows daily, and their combined voices have reached a crescendo pitch.

But the little tweety birds were not, and have not been, duly elected representatives, or appointees selected by duly-elected representatives of the public, to whom the government supposedly owes first allegiance. Our government claims, after all, to be a government of the people, by the people, for the people, does it not? And it claims to be our “representative government”. So we must find it to be odd that a very small handful of private individuals from certain elitist sectors of the overall American public have, acting like little tweety birds chirping things into the ear of our government through think tanks and lobbies, amounted to an interference with and turning of the people's will, chirping as they do in his ear while the rest of us do our daily toil and labor.

Here is something which one of those little tweety birds chirped into Uncle Sam's ear:


America’s global leadership, and its role as the guarantor of the current great-power peace, relies upon the safety of the American homeland; the preservation of a favorable balance of power in Europe, the Middle East and surrounding energy-producing region, and East Asia; and the general stability of the international system of nation-states relative to terrorists, organized crime, and other “non-state actors.” The relative importance of these elements, and the threats to U.S. interests, may rise and fall over time. Europe, for example, is now extraordinarily peaceful and stable, despite the turmoil in the Balkans. Conversely, East Asia appears to be entering a period with increased potential for instability and competition. In the Gulf, American power and presence has achieved relative external security for U.S. allies, but the longer-term prospects are murkier.

Generally, American strategy for the coming decades should seek to consolidate the great victories won in the 20th century – which have made Germany and Japan into stable democracies, for example – maintain stability in the Middle East, while setting the conditions for 21st-century successes, especially in East Asia. A retreat from any one of these requirements would call America’s status as the world’s leading power into question.

The failure to define a coherent global security and military strategy during the post-Cold-War period has invited challenges; states seeking to establish regional hegemony continue to probe for the limits of the American security perimeter. None of the defense reviews of the past decade has weighed fully the range of missions demanded by U.S. global leadership: defending the homeland, fighting and winning multiple large-scale wars, conducting constabulary missions which preserve the current peace, and transforming the U.S. armed forces to exploit the “revolution in military affairs.”  Nor have they adequately quantified the forces and resources
necessary to execute these missions separately and successfully.


This little tweety bird's chirpful message to the government was charged with the high notes of American primacy, of the cheerful acceptance of America's role as the peace-maker for the planet. It implied that peace-keeping was just another word for policing. It suggested to Uncle Sam that the USG needed to accelerate post-Cold War military budgets and expand military presence, especially in east Asia, but not at the expense of overlooking the larger Eurasian picture of course. East Asia was seen to be a place of conflict and competition, as if ownership and control over certain nation-states was somehow translated into a governmental parallel with an olympic event. We were supposed to be Number One, by this little bird's notes. And it also sang of a coming “revolution in military affairs”. That “revolution in military affairs”, especially in the wake of U.S. victory over the Cold War's enemies, seems to presuppose quite a lot.

As I understand things, America won the Cold War, eliminating thereby our last remaining “enemy” - the USSR – which collapsed like the three buildings of the WTC in New York on 911.  The USSR just imploded, the Berlin Wall came down without a shot being fired, and suddenly there was little or no believable excuse for the Defense Department and its war-industry contractors to enjoy the glories and budgets and profits and powers of war-time operations. Americans expected a slow-down in Defense spending, since we no longer had an “enemy” who threatened our peace.  During the Clinton years across most of the 1990s, noticeable downsizing was going on, and that downsizing was a major pain in the paw for the warhawk neo-con camp which had served the nation's and the nation's military's needs under Reagan and Bush 41, only to be removed for Clinton's brand of organized criminals. Our little tweety bird, therefore, in the year 2000, sent its chirpful message to the White House and Congress, and it named its song “Rebuilding America's Defenses”.

But as under Clinton's watch the Defense industry were to be forced to downsize itself accordingly, of course many jobs would be lost to “peace”. Entire companies might crumble, just as had done the USSR. The economy would suffer. And worse, American Primacy, which is a term used to disguise what the warhawks have always christened the 'American Empire', might, it was feared, wither on the vine after the most profound defeat of the Soviet Union. We understand this dilemma best when we recall that, historically, “war” has always been a unifying factor in almost every society on earth since the days and times following the caveman's disorganized life. War mobilizes the national unity by presenting a credible “enemy”, or threat of an enemy affront. Known fact, as I'm sure we may all agree once we consider together the complete freedom within any modern society which had no enemy to worry about. That sort of irresponsible individuality is seen by advocates of powerful government presence to be a direct threat to any nation's “security”. Hence the pitched hard-sell by the war-industry, the economist, and the statist to our government; and hence the purchase by the government.

So little tweety bird number one, quoted above, was busily chirping the mirth of global Empire secured by global military dispersement in the government's ear throughout the latter half of the twentieth century, and much of that song was taken to heart by Uncle Sam. It was good for politics as well as good for the economy, and it satiated much greed by many otherwise good folks on Capitol Hill and on Wall Street – and their economic comforts extended indirectly outward to the public domain, the private sector work force, from which the US military draws its finest each generation.

Little tweety bird number one has a name – the PNAC Bird, which in vernacular is the Project For A New American Century.  But there have existed, and yet do exist, many other similar little tweety birds who juxtapose daily for position at the government's ear. Here is a similar song sang by another one, little tweety bird number two:

The last decade of the twentieth Century has witnessed a tectonic shift in world affairs. For the first time ever, a non-Eurasian power has emerged not only as the key arbiter of Eurasian power relations but also as the world's paramount power. The defeat and collapse of the Soviet Union was the final step in the rapid ascendance of a Western Hemisphere power, the United States, as the sole and, indeed, the first truly global power.
Eurasia, however, retains its geopolitical importance. Not only is its western periphery – Europe – still the location of much of the world's political and economic power, but its eastern region – Asia – has lately become a vital center of economic growth and rising political influence. Hence, the issue of how a globally engaged  America copes with the complex Eurasian power relationships – and particularly whether it prevents the emergence of a dominant and antagonistic Eurasian power – remains central to America's capacity to exercise its global primacy.
It follows that – in addition to cultivating the various novel dimensions of power (technology, communications, information, as well as trade and finance – American foreign policy must remain concerned with the geopolitical dimension and must employ its influence in Eurasia in a manner that creates a stable continental equilibrium, with the United States as the political arbiter.
Eurasia is thus the chessboard on which the struggle for global primacy continues to be played, and that struggle involves geostrategy – the strategic management of geopolitical interests. It is noteworthy that as recently as 1940 two aspirants to global power, Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin, agreed explicitly (in the secret negotiations of that year) that America should be excluded from Eurasia. Each realized that the injection of American power into Eurasia would preclude his ambitions regarding global domination. Each shared the assumption that Eurassia controls the world. A half century later, the issue has been redefined: will America's primacy in Eurasia endure, and to what ends might it be applied?
The ultimate objective of American policy should be benign and visionary: to shape a truly cooperative global community, in keeping with long-range trends and with the fundamental interests of humankind. But in the meantime, it is imperative that no Eurasian challenger emerges, capable of dominating Eurasia and thus also of challenging America. The formulation of a comprehensive and integrated Eurasian geostrategy is therefore the purpose....(snip)
America's global supremacy is reminiscent in some ways of earlier empires. These empires based their power on a hierarchy of vassals, tributaries, protectorates, and colonies, with those on the outside generally viewed as barbarians. To some degree, that anachronistic terminology is not altogether inappropriate for some of the [nation-]states currently within the American orbit. As in the past, the exercise of American “imperial” power is derived in large measure from superior organization, from the ability to mobilize vast economic and technological resources promptly for military purposes, from the vague but significant cultural appeal of the American way of life, and from the sheer dynamism and inherent competitiveness of the American social and political elites.

We'll come back to little tweety bird number two later. But for now, I'll tell you that little tweety bird number two is none other than the fierce Brzezinski Bird, known only in the highest places of power. The Brzezinski Bird has been chirping this sort of imperial madness into the government's ear since back in the 1950s. This bird also is the co-founder of David Rockefeller's Trilateral Commission, the private-sector little tweety bird number three, which is behind the creation of the Euro, the Amero, and whatever currency becomes the issue of the Asian third economic region which is to precede the advent of the one-world government. This bird's a player, for sure, rivaling in song and intent and general message the insidious chirps of the dreaded Kissinger Bird.

(continued next post)

Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 17, 2006, 05:34:13 am
(coninuing from previous post)
~


Of course, there are other little tweety birds in this foul flock, such as the CFR Bird, which largely built the nest in which the Brzezinski Bird and the Kissinger Bird and the PNAC Bird like to lay their eggs and preen their metallic feathers. But there is only so much time here, so I won't offer samples of similar songs by other little tweety birds at this time, except for the song of the very weird little tweety bird named the 2025 Bird. The 2025 Bird started singing its strange song in the government's ear along about 1995/96. It goes something like this:

~Begin quoted passages from Air Force 2025:
The Chief of Staff of the United States Air Force, General Ronald R. Fogleman, tasked
the Air University at Maxwell AFB, AL to look 30 years into the future to identify the concepts,
capabilities and technologies the United States will require to remain the dominant air and space
force in the 21st century.
The Air University commander led a team of students and faculty from the Air
University’s Air War College and Air Command and Staff College; scientists and technologists
from the Air Force Institute of Technology, located at Wright-Patterson AFB, OH; Air Force
Academy and AFROTC cadets from around the country; and selected academic and business
leaders in the civilian community across the nation in the 10-month effort to meet General
Fogleman’s tasking.
The resulting study is called Air Force 2025 or 2025 for short. The team’s findings were
briefed to General Fogleman in June 1996 and to the Secretary of the Air Force, Dr. Sheila
Widnall, in July 1996. The 2025 study was subsequently published in a collection of “white
papers” consisting of an executive summary and 41 individual papers, totaling more than 3,300
pages of text.

Study participants used a forecasting technique known as “alternate futures” to help them
envision an array of future worlds in which the U.S. must be able to survive and prosper in the
year 2025. The 2025 team studied the works of respected futurists, then identified their own
factors or “drivers” of change in the future. More than 100 individual drivers were considered.
Ultimately the three drivers most relevant in terms of structuring the environment affecting U.S.
security in the next century were chosen.
American World View. The U.S. perspective of the world which determines its
willingness and capability to interact with the rest of the world, and ranges from
domestic to global.
D TeK. The differential rate of growth, proliferation, leverage, and vitality of scientific
knowledge and technical applications and their consequences. This driver ranges from
constrained to exponential. When “constrained,” evolutionary changes are occurring and
it is possible for nations or groups to preserve technological monopolies and advantages.
When change is “exponential,” revolutionary technological changes are possible and
nations or groups are unable to preserve technological leverage, monopolies and
advantages.
World Power Grid. The generation (sources -- social, political, economic, military, etc.),
transmission (directions, resistance, speed), distribution (number and types of actors) and
control (influence, leverage) of power throughout the world. This driver ranges from
concentrated to dispersed. The world power grid is “concentrated” when a few actors
have the means or will to influence others and “dispersed” when many actors can
effectively influence world events.
The 2025 team used the creative but disciplined alternate futures procedure to describe
various plausible future worlds, each separate and distinct, and each offering different security
and planning challenges. In the first world, the U.S.’s military might is constrained by many
world players with other forms of power. A second world depicts the extreme impacts of a
future dominated by multinational corporate giants. A third world is a scary future in which
information and biogenetic technology is dispersed, giving individuals and small groups untold
power. In a fourth world, the U.S. loses its status as a superpower to an Asian colossus. A fifth
future envisions a world marked by fundamental changes in the social structure, environment,
and the international security system, making it difficult for the United States to determine how
best to exert its power and influence. The final world depicts how a major conflict in 2015 could
shape events in 2025.


CONCEPT GENERATION

The 2025 team sought ideas worldwide via the internet about future military capabilities.
The group synthesized the best ideas into white papers focusing on specific military tasks. Using
the six alternate futures as a backdrop, the team then evaluated these concepts to determine
which of the 25 emerging technologies and 40 separate systems envisioned by the 2025 team had
the most merit. Each of these capabilities and technologies was evaluated in the context of
categories airmen are familiar with today -- awareness, reach, and power -- to draw conclusions
about their usefulness to airmen in the world envisioned in 2025. The ten capabilities and six
high-leverage technologies listed below emerged from this analysis as the best investments to
ensure the United States’ continued air and space dominance in the future.

TOP SYSTEMS:
·  Global Information Management System ·  Sanctuary Base ·  Global Surveillance, Reconnaissance, Target System ·  Global Area Strike System ·  Uninhabited Combat Air Vehicle ·  Space High Energy Laser ·  Solar High Energy Laser ·  Reconnaissance Unmanned Air Vehicle
·  Attack Microbots ·  Piloted Single Stage Space Plane

The 2025 study also highlighted five trends, listed below:
·  Humans will move from being more “in the cockpit” to being more “in the loop.”
·  The medium for air force operations will move from the air and space toward space and air.
·  Development responsibilities for critical technologies and capabilities will move from
government toward industry.
·  Influence will increasingly be exerted by information more than bombs.
·  Military education will move from being rigid to responsive.


CONCLUSIONS

Preparing now for the military challenges of the 21st century is central to our national
security. The keys to preserving the military security of the United States are the integration of
information technologies with air and space capabilities, and the connectivity for distributed,
demand-driven systems. Having these capabilities produces what the 2025 team termed
“Vigilant Edge.” Investments in technologies which enhance vigilance, decision making
capabilities and communication architectures will help ensure a future, full-service Air Force
capable of providing a true “Vigilant Edge” for America.


~End passages from Air Force 2025

(continued next post)




Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 17, 2006, 05:49:04 am
(continuing from previous two posts)
~

What I find very remarkable is the similarity of the direction of this study and the admonitions provided to its sponsor, the USG, which has been obviously reeling under the influence of too many little tweety birds. What we have here is an example of what occurs when private sector think tanks like PNAC and CFR and etc have their way with our government. Their political strategy turns into Statecraft before our very eyes, and Statecraft transforms into Policy. Policy is then entrusted to government offices and agencies where this sort of idiotic fantasy is taken seriously and acted upon. Here we have high-ranking members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (recall – their offices were responsible for the Northwoods Document some years earlier, proposing to execute some terrorist events as a pretext for public support of a little war they wanted) committing tax dollars for this sort of silly research, which would not be needed in any case unless Policy were to continue to manufacture “enemies”. As noted, we WON World War II, and we WON the Cold War. The only possible challenger after the Cold War would be China, who, until Clinton fixed them up with our satellite technology and other vital U.S. Defense secrets, lagged decades behind U.S. military might.

Bear in mind that at that time, the time of the dissolution of the USSR, some war-hawk neo-cons naturally felt the vacuum and reared the loss of profits and therefore dreamed of creating a new enemy to justify continued Defense spending and “national unity”. I should say more on this at this time, but again I notice that time gets away. Perhaps later. Just remember as we go along – the ideas which spawned 2025 came from very questionable little tweety birds, and was subsequently commissioned by the Pentagon as a valid study into the future of military evolutions here in the good ol' USA. Let's continue looking into Air Force 2025.

~Begin passages from Air Force 2025:

from here we read:
http://csat.au.af.mil/2025/volume3/vol3ch15.pdf

According to Gen Gordon Sullivan, former Army chief of staff, “As we leap technology into the 21st
century, we will be able to see the enemy day or night, in any weather— and go after him relentlessly.”1 A
global, precise, real-time, robust, systematic weather-modification capability would provide war-fighting
CINCs with a powerful force multiplier to achieve military objectives. Since weather will be common to all
possible futures, a weather-modification capability would be universally applicable and have utility across
the entire spectrum of conflict. The capability of influencing the weather even on a small scale could change
it from a force degrader to a force multiplier.
People have always wanted to be able to do something about the weather. In the US, as early as 1839,
newspaper archives tell of people with serious and creative ideas on how to make rain.2 In 1957, the
president’s advisory committee on weather control explicitly recognized the military potential of weathermodification,
warning in their report that it could become a more important weapon than the atom bomb.3
However, controversy since 1947 concerning the possible legal consequences arising from the
deliberate alteration of large storm systems meant that little future experimentation could be conducted on
storms which had the potential to reach land.  In 1977, the UN General Assembly adopted a resolution
prohibiting the hostile use of environmental modification techniques. The resulting “Convention on the
Prohibition of Military or Any Other Hostile Use of Environmental Modification Technique (ENMOD)”
committed the signatories to refrain from any military or other hostile use of weather-modification which
could result in widespread, long-lasting, or severe effects.5 While these two events have not halted the
pursuit of weather-modification research, they have significantly inhibited its pace and the development of
associated technologies, while producing a primary focus on suppressive versus intensification activities.


Well, shoot. We can all now see how the Pentagon has seriously committed itself to following the song of Empire as sung by so many little tweety birds. In today's energy-field-rich Cabinet, we should remember that Vice President Dick Cheney, a former Director at the CFR, co-founded the PNAC along with Donald Rumsfeld, Scooter Libby, Paul Wolfowitz, and other neo-con war-hawks. And had I the time, and you the reader the motive to wade through the volume of it all, I'd show you here a blistering parallel between the PNAC's message in “Rebuilding America's Defenses” and Zbigniew Brzezinski's book, “The Grand Chessboard: American Primacy and its Geostrategic Imperatives”, which came out at precisely the time the PNAC was formed.

There are other connections which time won't permit me to go into here, such as the presence in key places of men who are members in Skull and Bones and Bohemian Grove – how interesting. We already know that those birds practice secretly the fine art of going beyond one's conscience.  But it's late here now, and I'm tired, so I'll close this installment by simply repeating a more human, more glorious, more American, more wise and more truthful song which has been echoing around the many rooms of the White House, seemingly unheard, for more than two centuries, but which has been largely ignored by the corporatized mechanical think-tankers who have silently, behind the scenes, forged U.S. foreign policy throughout the 20th Century and brought an unwitting American public to a literally unbreakable addiction to their slavery and now to the ugly yawning brink of extinction.

The HAARP facility, as my respected friend Jack Boone agrees, is quite real. It is a part of what came from Air Force 2025. And as some of you may already know, the US Army also had a plan for 2025, which includes putting micro-chips into every citizen's body by the year 2025. That, I'm afraid, is also provable in their own words, but I'll have to dig it up later. But I digress. HAARP is real, and it has to do with some mighty fantastic notions regarding American Primacy around the world. Tomorrow night I hope, (but can't at this moment promise) to put here another installment on HAARP which will get us closer to the threat that is soon to be staring us in the face. One of the Air Force groups' logos states it this way: “In your face from outer space”. What is going on at HAARP is going to be demonstrated here on this thread to be directly related to the Air Force aerosol program, formerly known to us little people as “chemtrails”. You're gonna just love this part. :)


To close this post with a stark contrast between what we're now being forced by Fedgov to swallow and what we lost long ago, here is a line from that speech by George Washington which I posted earlier to this thread.

“It is important, likewise, that the habits of thinking in a free country should inspire caution in those intrusted with its administration to confine themselves within their respective constitutional spheres, avoiding in the exercise of the powers of one department to encroach upon another. The spirit of encroachment tends to consolidate the powers of all the departments in one, and thus to create, whatever the form of government, a real despotism.” ~ George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796


Salute!
Elias








Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: T.H.E. Cat on April 17, 2006, 08:20:56 am

[Unfortunately, I don't have either of these books. But I shall soon. When I first heard of the book "Angels Don't Play This Haarp" I scoffed it because it sounded like some silly-assed conspiracy theory.  Now I wish I'd have ordered it years ago.


I've had trouble believing some of the books I've read too. I had and still have a hard time believing the the book "Behold a Pale Horse" I don't know it just seems like the book was written to make money. I'm sure I'm wrong. I have many other books about unrelated subjects that I've read. Some hard to believe if there is any truth to them. I think some times the authors take a long way around to try explain what they want to get across to their audience

Quote
I note today that since discovering the Internet in 1999 my perceptions of reality have altered greatly.

I discovered the Internet about 10 years before that, but didn't really get into it until I got my first DOS machine. There is one thing I have discovered about the internet and that is that there is a lot of BS out there and if you don't have your filter on to filter out the drivel and misconceptions that you can be lead astray.

Quote
What can we make of that, T.H.E. Cat? :)

Perhaps we are all just in a "Matrix"

Keep up the good work Elias. I read as much as I can of what you write. I find it very interesting. I also believe that there is something going on. It's easy to put 2 and 2 together and come up with 4. I believe this because you can see it happening on a small scale around you and if it happens on a small scale, then why not on a large scale.

Keep up the work and,

Salute General

Cat

P.S. I wanted to add this and see what you think of it. You mentioned the all seeing eye of the pyramid on the one dollar bill. Very easy to see. Many years ago somebody pointed out to me that there is a very small owl on the dollar bill. If you take a strong magnifying glass and look in the upper right of the bill, the number one with the ,sort of shield around it, at about the 10:00 o'clock postion on the outside of the shield is what appears to be an owl. Could it be another symbol on the bill for the Bohemian Grove? BTW it's on the side with George's face on it.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 18, 2006, 03:07:07 am
 
Quote
I've had trouble believing some of the books I've read too. I had and still have a hard time believing the the book "Behold a Pale Horse". I don't know it just seems like the book was written to make money. I'm sure I'm wrong. I have many other books about unrelated subjects that I've read. Some hard to believe if there is any truth to them. I think some times the authors take a long way around to try explain what they want to get across to their audience
Several quick comments on that, Cat. First, regarding any book one might read into, I find that I am most comfortable with the books which are heavily footnoted and resourced with credible, on-the-record materials, such as Senate hearings or corporate records and etc.
Regarding Behold A Pale Horse, I think you'll find that all the documents he has included in that book are valid sources. My biggest problem with the book, and the one reason I've not completed reading it yet, is the way the book causes me to feel downright crazy. Some of this stuff is too difficult for me to comprehend. Yet when he gives you an Air Force document which is on the record, what can one do but believe it? Also, his personal history in U.S. Intelligence gives him a well-substantiated credibility. Put his content together with what's on this thread already, and any reader could feel that his very sanity is threatened. I think it is best to suggest that anyone involved in lifting the curtain to reveal who (or what) is behind that curtain, should certainly proceed at one's own preferred speed. Waking up is hard to do. :)
Authors are, it is to be hoped, each an individualized and unique sort of person, and those who tackle the hardest subjects must of needs set forward certain premises before blurting out their thesis. A great way to get the proper perspective on verbosity vs BS is to read the 19th Century Russian giants, Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, and Turgenev. Read one or two by each of those dudes and you're ready to wade through anything, lol.


Quote
Perhaps we are all just in a "Matrix"

Yup. It's kinda like one reaches a plane on which one must demand of oneself to either eat the blue pill or the red pill, but not eating one or the other is no option.

Quote
I also believe that there is something going on. It's easy to put 2 and 2 together and come up with 4. I believe this because you can see it happening on a small scale around you and if it happens on a small scale, then why not on a large scale.

Well said, Cat. From the Emerald Tablet of thousands of years ago we read “That which is above is like unto that which is below”. Cause and effect are never separate things. Structure and utility are always married. Form and function are also bonded. Where there is smoke, there is, or was, fire.Where there is terrorism, there is or was a state-sponsored Intelligence operation. We'll be getting to that, but in the meantime, reading that book by Tarpley, which F42 fetched here to this thread, is the most worth-while venture any reader can undertake today. Put that book, “Synthetic Terrorism: Made In The USA”, together with Ruppert's “Crossing The Rubicon”, and then adding a bit of the PNAC's website and Brzezinski's “The Grand Chessboard”, and the greater pattern should begin to appear through the haze which has been put before our minds' eye.
Keep the faith, Bro! Read every chance you get. Nurture your hunger for the truth, no matter where that truth leads.

Salute!
Elias

PS: Don't know if I can get this one to post here, but I'll attempt placing a pic for you here - and if it comes through okay, you can see steel beams being catapulted hundreds of feet from the building, followed by a bulging dust cloud made primarily of pulverized concrete...

(http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0111/images/Biggart5-24.jpg)
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: ladylearning on April 18, 2006, 11:43:34 am
 
Quote
PS: Don't know if I can get this one to post here, but I'll attempt placing a pic for you here - and if it comes through okay, you can see steel beams being catapulted hundreds of feet from the building, followed by a bulging dust cloud made primarily of pulverized concrete...

http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0111/images/Biggart5-24.jpg

After having seen various viewpoints of both towers collapsing hundreds of times in stills and videos it would seem to me that buildings made of steel, concrete, asbestos and sheetrock do incredibly curious things when they collapse due to relatively small fires (for several hours) in the building.  Freefall speed in a vacuum.  Steel beams being shot UP into the air.  Molten steel in the rubble (what wasn't hauled off quickly) for weeks.  Yes, very curious.  :bs:

LL
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 18, 2006, 12:44:12 pm
 
Quote
PS: Don't know if I can get this one to post here, but I'll attempt placing a pic for you here - and if it comes through okay, you can see steel beams being catapulted hundreds of feet from the building, followed by a bulging dust cloud made primarily of pulverized concrete...

http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0111/images/Biggart5-24.jpg

After having seen various viewpoints of both towers collapsing hundreds of times in stills and videos it would seem to me that buildings made of steel, concrete, asbestos and sheetrock do incredibly curious things when they collapse due to relatively small fires (for several hours) in the building.  Freefall speed in a vacuum.  Steel beams being shot UP into the air.  Molten steel in the rubble (what wasn't hauled off quickly) for weeks.  Yes, very curious.  :bs:

LL

Several things quickly:
There are now available to serious students of 911 several excellent films which focus on the points of interest to which you refer. I am glad you have seen so many of those films. One film which I think holds two very significant pieces of evidence to reinforce just what you've mentioned is "911 Eyewitness", which is very new.
 http://www.911eyewitness.com/

The science which deals with the free-fall speed of the buildings is a fact which no lying President can refute. The impossibility of the government story concerning 911 is a staggering, gaping indictment which leads us to ask this very serious question:

If three buildings were brought down by controlled demolition on 911, wouldn't the explosives used in each building have to have been in place before the morning of 911?

For readers who have not yet concluded that fires did not bring down the three WTC buildings on 911, there is a powerful website which gives plenty of scientific debate from which to build one's conclusion. This site is clean, unobstructed by conjectures, and it is loaded with scholarly documentation about what actually did cause three steel-frame buildings to collapse on 911. From this website and its links, one can get the science and logic and evidence which shows clearly that the American people have been lied to by the George Walker Bush Administration regarding what happened to us  on 911.
http://www.st911.org/

At that site one may read Steven Jones' peer-reviewed scientific venture into the building collapses, which is likely to be the best case yet made in support of the "explosives-inside-the-buildings" perspective. Link for that is here:
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

You mentioned also the pools of molten steel under the rubble in each building's "footprint". Those pools of molten steel remained molten for four weeks after 911. Steven Jones has suggested the use of thermite, thermate, or superthermite as the only rational explanation for that kind of chemical reaction, and I think that anyone who takes time to read his report on that will likely agree with him.  This picture was taken at ground zero as the last bits of the rubble were being removed from one of the collapse sites. This molten steel remained molten for weeks after 911. This was not caused by collapsing steel-and-concrete. The best explanation for this is thermite or a variation of thermite such as "super-thermite" or thermate.

(http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/hotSlag.jpg)

Photo from Steven Jones' peer-reviewed paper at above link.
Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 18, 2006, 12:52:53 pm
I think it is real. But - if it is real, what on earth does it do? To look into high-frequency active auroral research, I turned to the Air Force 2025 study, among other sources, where I found that certain commands in the U.S. military are keenly interested in learning all about weather control, just as the Russians feared. The U.S. military is also interested in discovering usages for certain layers of the atmosphere for various military and security purposes. They are investigating the ionosphere, among other “spheres”.

When we speak of controlling the weather, we may be messing around pretty close to certain lines laid down by Mother Nature.

Sigh.  How, exactly would such a device "heat up the environment?"
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 18, 2006, 01:19:44 pm
I think it is real. But - if it is real, what on earth does it do? To look into high-frequency active auroral research, I turned to the Air Force 2025 study, among other sources, where I found that certain commands in the U.S. military are keenly interested in learning all about weather control, just as the Russians feared. The U.S. military is also interested in discovering usages for certain layers of the atmosphere for various military and security purposes. They are investigating the ionosphere, among other “spheres”.

When we speak of controlling the weather, we may be messing around pretty close to certain lines laid down by Mother Nature.

Sigh.  How, exactly would such a device "heat up the environment?"

By packing the atmosphere with staggering amounts, actually many many tons,  of microscopic metals. Barium and aluminum are included in the aerosol sprays which the US Military has been distributing into our atmosphere with what we have in the past referred to as chemtrails. Large tonnages of microscopic metallic salts have been inserted via the spraying operations into our air, where those metals are suspended in air, and where they serve as a metallic conductor for the waves of pulses which the HAARP facility initiates. The metallic content of the sprays being discharged into our atmosphere by US government aircraft daily constitutes a very fine conductive network which may be used to shift energies from one geographical location to another.  By sending ELF pulses into the plasma which the spraying operations have created in our air, the facility at HAARP can literally "heat up the environment".  Our atmosphere has, at certain levels, been altered by electro-magnetic manipulations. Our atmosphere is now in a plasma state. That plasma state has been deliberately created by the Air Force in response to the Air Force 2025 report to the JCS.

(http://www.carnicom.com/abq2.jpg)

Here is perhaps the best place to start digging into this knowledge:
http://www.carnicom.com/

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 18, 2006, 01:25:13 pm
By packing the atmosphere with staggering amounts, actually many many tons,  of microscopic metals. Barium and aluminum are included in the aerosol sprays which the US Military has been distributing into our atmosphere with what we have in the past referred to as chemtrails. Large tonnages of microscopic metallic salts have been inserted via the spraying operations into our air, where those metals are suspended in air, and where they serve as a metallic conductor for the waves of pulses which the HAARP facility initiates. The metallic content of the sprays being discharged into our atmosphere by US government aircraft daily constitutes a very fine conductive network which may be used to shift energies from one geographical location to another.  By sending ELF pulses into the plasma which the spraying operations have created in our air, the facility at HAARP can literally "heat up the environment". 

Ok, so the metals in the atmosphere are just a conductor, to get the energy from the HAARP there more efficiently.

Let's pretend for the sake of argument that all this is true, and that HAARP energy delivery is 100% efficient.  I.e., every drop of energy sent from the HAARP transmitter arrives intact up in the atmosphere.  We can revisit this later, but let's see where this goes.

Do you have ANY idea how much energy is required to heat up the atmosphere?  The atmosphere is as hot as it is, essentially solely from the contribution of the sun's radiant heat (yes, yes, there is how much is retained due to greenhouse gases, but that's a different story).  Do you know how much energy that represents?  The transport mechanism is a red herring.  The question is: where does the energy itself come from?

PS: "many tons" is not a staggering amount to be dispersed in the atmosphere.  If so much metal were dispersed as to change the conductivity and permittivity of the upper atmosphere itself, that would change EVERYTHING about radio transmissions.  I predict such a development would not go unnoticed by virtually everyone in the RF-and-up community.

My cordial advice is to cull this one from the conspiracy theory herd.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: ladylearning on April 18, 2006, 09:03:28 pm


My cordial advice is to cull this one from the conspiracy theory herd.

Well, now that's interesting. You seem to share the same opinion as the Air Force, the Army, various congressmen and representatives, the EPA, most all major news networks and jounalists, several pharmacuetical companies as well as any number of other government agencies.
Most all of whom say the trails that a vast majority of people have witnessed are nothing more than "normal" condensation trails despite the fact that science says otherwise.
I suppose now we need to do some revisionist science books in addition to our revised history books.:contract:
The government's work is never done.

LL
 
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 19, 2006, 02:04:29 am
test - this is only a test


Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 19, 2006, 02:19:06 am
Quote
Ok, so the metals in the atmosphere are just a conductor, to get the energy from the HAARP there more efficiently.

 I did not say the word “just”, because the use of that word in that place at that time in the flow of the sentence would imply a limitation on the possible other uses of the metals, and because I already know that the metals are more than “just" conductors. To see them as “just conductors” is to overlook any other possible uses which those metals may provide for the government as they hover in our atmosphere. Therefore, we must not limit ourselves to just the temperature-altering possibilities posed by the presence of inserted metallic materials in our atmosphere. We can say, as I'm sure you'll agree, that one of the possibilities embodied by the presence of the inserted metallic materials into our atmosphere is an ability to “heat up the atmosphere”.

So let's look at something relative to this – something  I have already posted in this thread, on page 6.

“A global, precise, real-time, robust, systematic weather-modification capability would provide war-fighting CINCs with a powerful force multiplier to achieve military objectives.”  (EA note: “CINC” stands for “Commander in Chief”.)

Since I took that statement from the US Air Force website's publication of their 2025 study report, I'm sure we can believe that this sort of thinking-ahead and creative planning is for real, and that the US Air Force has an interest in “weather modification capability”. Weather modification would certainly include any science which could exact changes in atmospheric temperatures, either upwardly toward “heating up” or downwardly toward “cooling down”. Since I am not a scientist, I make no claim to be able to explain what a multi-trillion-dollar-budgeted U.S. military's R and D community might already know on this subject, but what I can see and therefore say is that the U.S. military is indeed involved in HAARP, and that the spraying operations which we've all noticed too often since the spraying program began strongly in 1999  are directly relevant and tied to whichever studies the U.S. military is conducting at HAARP. Recall, the initials of the acronym “HAARP” name these words:

HIGH FREQUENCY ACTIVE AURORAL RESEARCH PROGRAM

The “auroral” part of that name is of particular interest to me, but the “high frequency” part is also of interest to me. I do not know if every reader here is familiar with something dental technicians call - an “ultra-sonic” cleaner. But as I've used ultra-sonics all my grown life, I'm very familiar with one aspect of their operation. The machines each contain a holding tank where cleaning fluids/soaps etc are held in solution. Built into the walls around the holding tank are the high-frequency transmitters which send throughout the fluids inside the tank a barrage of "ultra-high-frequency sound waves". Those sound waves “clean” whichever tool, crown, matrix, metal, casting, or other object happens to be immersed in the tank, and they do it by bombarding the item with sound waves which literally dis-bond surface adhesions. One of these machines is in every dental crown-and-bridge laboratory.

If we were to substitute an “atmosphere” for the cleaning fluid of the ultra-sonic cleaner with instead a plasma, and pump ions into that plasma instead of pumping sound waves into a cleaning tank, I feel that there would be a viable correlation of physics. One thing the ultra-sonic cleaner displays as a result of being operated for even a small period of time is an increase in the temperature of the cleaning fluids inside the tank. And if one is busily cleaning many items so that one runs that ultra-sonic cleaner for a couple of hours or more, which is very common practice in labs, then the fluids inside the tank get too hot to the skin and deny one the use of one's unprotected hands in retrieving said objects from the fluids. In this case, sound waves, pumped at ultra-high-frequencies, do indeed increase the temperature of the affected body of fluids. I suggest on that basis that it is perfectly acceptable to concede that in similar, if varied, ways, the pumping of ions through an artificially-created plasma in our atmosphere is at least in concept understandable and possible, whether the degree of “heating-up” is sensible by human capacities or only by scientific instruments.

But there is another aspect of this. The metallic salts which are now known to be included in the aerosols being sprayed into our skies are “hydro-scopic”, or “water-seeking” salts. As such, they invariably remove moisture from the atmosphere to whichever degree would accompany the intensity or relaxed application of the spraying operation in a given geo-area.

One of the goals of the operation is to implant an artificial plasmic layer into several of the layers of our atmosphere and somehow to get the kazillions of particles so placed to remain there for future use. At a point, which I do not know how to define, suspensions in certain layers of our atmosphere remain in a sort of “orbital” state, and do not respond to the pull of gravity, same as other elements naturally indigenous to the ionosphere or mesosphere or whichever. In other words, we now know that aerosol salts may be successfully inserted into upper atmosphere layers and remain there. I do not know what the success factor is, whether all such particles remain in orbit or if they lose a few percent of them to gravity, but what I do know is that these aerosol spraying operations have accumulated enough inserted materials as to whiten the sky over much of America and in other parts of the world. The blue skies we knew just ten years ago are now closer to a hazy white than to blue. Our atmosphere itself has been altered to a state of being plasma, and that plasma is artificial, man-made, not healthy for planet or people, and constitutes a massive covert operation which the government flat-out denies it's doing. We will get to that denial by government later here.

From the HAARP facility's own publications we've read already that this activity is primarily centralized at a height over the HAARP facility in Alaska. But in military research, this concept is abstracted into their vision for 2025 this way -

“Preparing now for the military challenges of the 21st century is central to our national
security. The keys to preserving the military security of the United States are the integration of
information technologies with air and space capabilities, and the connectivity for distributed,
demand-driven systems.” - US Air Force 2025 project.

(continued next post)


Quote
Let's pretend for the sake of argument that all this is true, and that HAARP energy delivery is one-hundred percent efficient.  I.e., every drop of energy sent from the HAARP transmitter arrives intact up in the atmosphere.  We can revisit this later, but let's see where this goes. Do you have ANY idea how much energy is required to heat up the atmosphere?  The atmosphere is as hot as it is, essentially solely from the contribution of the sun's radiant heat (yes, yes, there is how much is retained due to greenhouse gases, but that's a different story).  Do you know how much energy that represents?  The transport mechanism is a red herring.  The question is: where does the energy itself come from?

This portion of your post is of course why I spent some time setting the record straight prior to even responding to this part. I would like to state to you that while I would certainly appreciate your bringing to the thread's awareness any mis-info or erroneous statements by self, I really am not involved on this particular thread with the cat-and-mouse game of “the sake of argument”. I am laying out a very diverse and seemingly un-related sequence of topics which require the open, candid, and honest understanding of their subtle inter-relationships, and I'm doing that to assist readers in altering their perception regarding the conspiracy theory which would state that certain “elements within seats of governmental power and authority conspired to attack this nation on 911, and did so”.

That is my thesis, and I am prepared after several years of personal interest and study into that thesis to present a case which I feel will assist anyone who seeks the truth of 911 to see the matter more completely. Therefore, I'm not feeling inclined to “argue” about things on this thread, merely to accept gratefully any disproof which readers/post-makers may share with me for the purpose of correcting my error. For instance, if anyone here wishes to debunk my presentation regarding the BIS, or the Amero, or the Northwoods Document, or any other aspect of my preparations for this thread's intended conclusions, I would certainly benefit from said debunking and would accordingly adjust my formulated approach to exposing criminality within seats of government authority as regards the attacks of 911.  I will indulge your hypothetical scenarios gladly so long as they are pertinent to the facts I have and shall yet present to this thread, and as far as they treat my statements accurately. Misquoted allusions to what I have written may not evoke responses from me. We need to be exact and precise.

Please note that I have not said that energy, per se, is pumped from the HAARP facility into the atmosphere. (I have not denied that energy is pumped from that facility either.) What I have stated, however, is this:

“Cause and effect are never separate things. Structure and utility are always married. Form and function are also bonded. Where there is smoke, there is, or was, fire. Where there is terrorism, there is or was a state-sponsored Intelligence operation.”

Therefore, displaying the science of HAARP is not my obligation, while questioning its effects is closer to my goals with this thread. Revealing the activities of HAARP and the government's involvement in the creation of HAARP and the desired military applications of HAARP and other relative factors peripheral to or directly involved in HAARP's design, creation, testing, and operations, such as droughts in regions of the continent, intensified storms, unusual weather behaviors in areas of the continent,  ground-level side-effects in humans including increases in asthma, upper-respiratory system problems, epidemic levels of sinus infection, and etc., are my responsibility, are pertinent to the development of my theory, and constitute elements of my theory, the responsibility for  which I accept gladly.

Quote
PS: "many tons" is not a staggering amount to be dispersed in the atmosphere.

Again, dgg9, let's not alter my statements, please. I did not say just “many tons”. I said instead: “many  many tons”. “Many many” is a lot more than just “many”. Also note, that many many tons of metals inserted into our atmosphere, for whatever reason, without the people's knowledge or informed consent, may constitute a crime against the citizenry by elements seated inside our representative government's agencies and institutions.

Quote
If so much metal were dispersed as to change the conductivity and permittivity of the upper atmosphere itself, that would change EVERYTHING about radio transmissions.

Bingo! I totally agree, and as we shall see soon enough on this thread, that is one of the applications of the HAARP facility's study programs and operations which is sought specifically by the U.S. military. Global communications ownership and control would work right into the hands of the globalizing socialist bankers who are building their one-world government. It would also allow the technology's owners to command the use of space. Damn, but those AF2025 think-tankers and planners were a bright bunch of visionaries, eh?


Quote
I predict such a development would not go unnoticed by virtually everyone in the RF-and-up community.

I do not know to what you're referring by “RF”? But I do know that this entire subject regarding HAARP and Air Force 2025 is certainly being watched by the population out here in “the real world”. And I am also aware to some small degree that many – many – government agencies and private sector interests are all over Clifford Carnicom's website daily, watching closely to see just how much he knows, and attempting to assess how widely his knowledge has spread among the population. The listing of “visitors” to his website is absolutely amazing. But it gets worse, and we'll be looking yet more deeply into this whole “aerosol project” and HAARP activity.

Quote
My cordial advice is to cull this one from the conspiracy theory herd.

Well, thank you for that suggestion. I hope you don't take it personally that I have decided instantly to proceed as planned with unfolding my conspiracy theory, including this hot topic. I must, you see, because even this aspect of my theory is substantive, supportive, and contributive to my completely portrayed thesis.

But pray tell, dgg9, if this is the only segment of my conspiracy theory which prompted you to finally enter this thread, am I to conclude that you do not wish to challenge the previous history and info which I've packed into this thread thus far? I mean, the Northwoods Document or the Bohemian Grove stuff didn't trip your trigger? I'm just asking, just curious, that's all. For if you, who's eye of scrutiny is ever-sharp and investigative, can find no flaw in those or similar topics I've introduced here, then I'd be very pleased indeed.

Last thought: I should actually elucidate for you that what is on this thread to date is not a “herd” of various conspiracies, so much as a collection of inter-related and known and proved facts of history, and the entire collection of topics is to be best seen as the whole of my thesis – up to the point at which I've revealed it thus far. In other words, the Northwoods Document, while in and of itself was a conspiracy to deceive the American public, is here included as merely a portion of my greater thesis. Same goes for the HAARP and aerosol spraying projects. All taken together at the conclusion of this thread shall, I trust, represent not only my thesis, but an historically sound presentation of the mechanism which created the so-called "War on Terror" and the events of the 1993 WTC bombing, the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, the attacks of 911, and the Anthrax attacks of the immediate post-911 era.

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 19, 2006, 06:38:13 am
Well, now that's interesting. You seem to share the same opinion as the Air Force, the Army, various congressmen and representatives, the EPA, most all major news networks and jounalists, several pharmacuetical companies as well as any number of other government agencies.

...and almost anyone who's had at least one undergraduate level physics/electromagnetics course.  But then the latter tend to not be so susceptible to conspiracy theories...and that IS interesting.

What do all the people/groups you list have to do with anything?  I asked the same questions that ANY first year EE student would ask.

Quote
Most all of whom say the trails that a vast majority of people have witnessed are nothing more than "normal" condensation trails despite the fact that science says otherwise.

Which "science" is this?  Care to cite?

Quote
I suppose now we need to do some revisionist science books in addition to our revised history books.

No, actually what we need now is for you to answer my post's specifics in an on point way.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Bill St. Clair on April 19, 2006, 07:00:11 am
I do not know what I did to this post, but I must have done something really really bad. I cannot get the post I have composed to post here. Maybe I put too many italics plus bold tags, or something. Anyway, dgg9, I've got five pages of reply to you, but after trying for two hours to eidt and re-edit it, I'm still unable to get it to post here. I'll try again tomorrow.

Your post may contain a banned word (banned by our web service provider, not the board itself). If you fail again, email it to me (billstclair at gmail dot com), and I'll see if I can figure it out.

Let's not pollute this thread with pointless arguments with he-who-shall-not-be-named.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 19, 2006, 12:52:01 pm
I do not know what I did to this post, but I must have done something really really bad. I cannot get the post I have composed to post here. Maybe I put too many italics plus bold tags, or something. Anyway, dgg9, I've got five pages of reply to you, but after trying for two hours to eidt and re-edit it, I'm still unable to get it to post here. I'll try again tomorrow.

Your post may contain a banned word (banned by our web service provider, not the board itself). If you fail again, email it to me (billstclair at gmail dot com), and I'll see if I can figure it out.

Let's not pollute this thread with pointless arguments with he-who-shall-not-be-named.

Bill, thank you so much for letting me know that there may be a banned word in my post. By culling a few paragraphs in the beginning part of my post, I was finally able to get it to post-up. As you may now see, I had spent some time composing that, and I am glad you gave me a clue about what my problem was.

Regarding he-who-shall-not-be-named, I certainly agree with your admonition about not trashing up this thread with pointless and circular arguments, and if he wishes to discuss this with me on this thread he will have to use my words as I write them, as I explained above to him. Twisting meanings and running away with those twisted meanings, is not a form of communication to which I shall respond. My post above, which was so difficult to get posted, has, I hope, sent the proper message. (Of course, we both know that his purpose here will not allow him to deal fairly with any topic he thinks should be clouded-up by linguistic acrobatics.) I intend to honor his presence on this thread only so long as he remains honorable in the selection of his tactics. I retain the option of ignoring him. I also am willing to discuss things with him, because in responding to his shifts, spins, and spirals I can make use of him to get more info put onto this thread. In other words, I'm not afraid of him, am not fearful that he will mess up my thread, for, just as with any psyops trickster, his method reveals his character for all readers to see - and that is, in its own weird way, a part of my conspiracy theory.

Gotta run off to work now. Thank you so much for all the work you've done. I'll be back tonight - see ya then.

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 19, 2006, 01:25:35 pm
I did not say the word “just”, because the use of that word in that place at that time in the flow of the sentence would imply a limitation on the possible other uses of the metals

Let's try this again: the high frequency beam and the atmospheric metal do not supply the energy needed to raise atmospheric temperature.  Rather, they are the pipeline and medium (respectively) by which this energy transfer can be made more efficient.  They get the energy there and they maximize its use.  But the energy still has to come from somewhere.

So, I ask again: do you have any idea how much energy is required to raise the temperature of the upper atmosphere?  I see this as a yes/no question.

Quote
and because I already know that the metals are more than “just" conductors. To see them as “just conductors” is to overlook any other possible uses which those metals may provide for the government as they hover in our atmosphere.

Ok, this is new.  What are the "other" uses?

Quote
Since I took that statement from the US Air Force website's publication of their 2025 study report, I'm sure we can believe that this sort of thinking-ahead and creative planning is for real, and that the US Air Force has an interest in “weather modification capability”.

Perhaps, but absent a viable mechanism, it's hard to attach much weight to it.

Does the USAF admit to injecting metal in the atmosphere?  If not, where did you get that?

Quote
If we were to substitute an “atmosphere” for the cleaning fluid of the ultra-sonic cleaner with instead a plasma, and pump ions into that plasma instead of pumping sound waves into a cleaning tank, I feel that there would be a viable correlation of physics.

Sadly, I do not see any viable correlation of physics.  ENERGY is required to make ultrasonic cleaners work.  Look at the energy required to make the relatively small amount of mass vibrate.  Now look at the energy required to make the entire upper atmosphere (over, say, an entire country or region) vibrate.

Ultimately, physics is about hard numbers, hence argument-by-analogy is always useless for quantitative arguments.

Quote
One thing the ultra-sonic cleaner displays as a result of being operated for even a small period of time is an increase in the temperature of the cleaning fluids inside the tank.

Yes, that's true, and for the simple reason that the motion translates into heat, and all of that is supplied by the external energy source effecting the vibration.

Quote
I suggest on that basis that it is perfectly acceptable to concede that in similar, if varied, ways, the pumping of ions through an artificially-created plasma in our atmosphere is at least in concept understandable and possible, whether the degree of “heating-up” is sensible by human capacities or only by scientific instruments.

The degree is everything.  Sure: you could aim high frequency energy at a small area of the atmosphere, vibrate it, and raise the temperature to a degree that delicate instrumentation could read.  And no doubt scientists will learn something from this.  But to raise the temp of an entire region, to the point of weather change, requires astronomically more power.

Quote
But there is another aspect of this. The metallic salts which are now known to be included in the aerosols being sprayed into our skies are “hydro-scopic”, or “water-seeking” salts. As such, they invariably remove moisture from the atmosphere to whichever degree would accompany the intensity or relaxed application of the spraying operation in a given geo-area.

Huh?  Are you claiming that atmospheric water content has been changed perceptibly?  And no one noticed?

Quote
This portion of your post is of course why I spent some time setting the record straight prior to even responding to this part. I would like to state to you that while I would certainly appreciate your bringing to the thread's awareness any mis-info or erroneous statements by self, I really am not involved on this particular thread with the cat-and-mouse game of “the sake of argument”.

What you call "for the sake of argument" is me temporarily stipulating your premise so as to engage your conclusion.

Quote
I am laying out a very diverse and seemingly un-related sequence of topics

That could be, but I'm 100% indifferent to those other topics.  Here, in this topic, you have strayed from geopolitical theorizing into the realm of hard, measurable science.  Conspiracy theories don't work quite so well here.  Facts are measurable and refutable.  Hence, I ask you to support this theory with actual science.  Since you cannot (see your admission below), it would appear we have little to discuss.

Quote
  I will indulge your hypothetical scenarios gladly so long as they are pertinent to the facts I have and shall yet present to this thread, and as far as they treat my statements accurately. Misquoted allusions to what I have written may not evoke responses from me. We need to be exact and precise.

1. I have laid out NO hypothetical scenarios.  I am asking you to explain YOUR scenario.
2. Exactitude and precision are admirable.  In scientific matters, they are all-important.  That's why I need you to SPECIFICALLY explain your weather-change thesis.

Quote
Therefore, displaying the science of HAARP is not my obligation

Of course it is, otherwise you are not entitled to make use of it.

Or more exactly, you don't have to explain the science of HAARP as it exists (low power, for research purposes).  You have to explain the science of YOUR invented extension to HAARP.

Quote
Revealing the activities of HAARP and the government's involvement in the creation of HAARP and the desired military applications of HAARP and other relative factors peripheral to or directly involved in HAARP's design, creation, testing, and operations, such as droughts in regions of the continent, intensified storms, unusual weather behaviors in areas of the continent,  ground-level side-effects in humans including increases in asthma, upper-respiratory system problems, epidemic levels of sinus infection, and etc., are my responsibility, are pertinent to the development of my theory, and constitute elements of my theory, the responsibility for  which I accept gladly.

HAARP, as it exists now, is about LOW POWER energy delivered to small areas of the atmosphere.  If you want to expand upon this claim, you need to supply proof.

If you think you can venture epidemiological proof that HAARP is responsible for increases in certain diseases, feel free.

Quote
Bingo! I totally agree, and as we shall see soon enough on this thread, that is one of the applications of the HAARP facility's study programs and operations which is sought specifically by the U.S. military.

So your claim, then, is that the metal is NOT already there in bulk?  And that it will be in the future?

If all that metal were there NOW, then there would be hosts of measurable problems with radio transmissions NOW.  Since there are no such problems, there is no such metal.  QED.

Quote
I do not know to what you're referring by “RF”?

Indeed.

Quote
Well, thank you for that suggestion. I hope you don't take it personally that I have decided instantly to proceed as planned with unfolding my conspiracy theory, including this hot topic.

No offense taken.  I knew that the cold water of contrary scientific facts would not douse your enthusiasm.

Quote
But pray tell, dgg9, if this is the only segment of my conspiracy theory which prompted you to finally enter this thread, am I to conclude that you do not wish to challenge the previous history and info which I've packed into this thread thus far?

Because that bores me.  However, when you made the mistake of making a scientific claim, I can refute it in a standalone fashion, without dragging in 100 page exegeses on the Illuminati and the Trilateral Commission.  That's the beauty of physics.

Quote
Last thought: I should actually elucidate for you that what is on this thread to date is not a “herd” of various conspiracies, so much as a collection of inter-related and known and proved facts of history,

That inter-relatedness would be unfortunate, since the air-metal business is easily refuted.  That's why I advise you to tack around it.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Jack Boone on April 19, 2006, 03:19:51 pm
Lay off.  Dgg9, you have posted more words here than are warranted, and they basically all say "I'm smart, you're not". I cannot hope to compete with you, and usually any hijack of a thread by you just causes me to give up.  But on the subject of Haarp, I know a little, and you can google a lot more.

Both the topics of Haarp and the rocket launching facilities are obstensibly run by the University of Alaska.  Providing the Air Force some cover.  The rocket launching facilities, at Poker Flat, admittedly cause enough distortion to the upper atmosphere, through injection of Barium and other unnamed materials, to cause aurora borealis visible outside Alaska.  Those interested can prove that such activity has, for the last 30 years at least, significantly affected radio transmission.  Whether these relate to haarp, and how much, is unknown.  I do know that haarp results in a lot of dead birds, and suspect that we're talking about the tip of a much bigger iceberg.

Can you say "Hurricane Katrina"?  I know you can.  Can I prove it? No.  But let us "dummies" discuss theory without you saying "can you prove it?" In 1000 words or more. 
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 19, 2006, 03:25:16 pm
Lay off.  Dgg9, you have posted more words here than are warranted,

Amazing, that in this thread, you should say that of me.

Quote
and they basically all say "I'm smart, you're not".

No, actually none of them say that.  But they do keep asking the same, basic questions that any EE guy would ask.  Thus far, I have not heard one single on-point answer.

Quote
Can you say "Hurricane Katrina"?  I know you can.  Can I prove it? No.

Proof?  I'd settle for an iota of evidence.

Quote
  But let us "dummies" discuss theory without you saying "can you prove it?" In 1000 words or more.

Strawman, as usual.  It's not a matter of proving this wild air-metal-temp-raising claim down to dotting all the I's.  It's a matter of providing ANY reasonable, coherent explanation that passes Physis 101 muster.  Do you get that?  I'm not asking for a dissertation.  I'm asking for something, anything, that passes the laugh test.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 19, 2006, 03:27:13 pm
usually any hijack of a thread by you just causes me to give up. 

So, wild claims of a conspiracy theory must go uncontested, and ANY request for ANY support is a "thread hijack?"

My original question fit in one small post.  A reasonable, on-point response would also fit in one post.  What bogs the thread down is not the question, but the huge smokescreen of evasions.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: F42 on April 19, 2006, 08:12:25 pm
All I got to say about the above is "thank you for the ignore button".

F42

Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 19, 2006, 08:28:41 pm
Quote
Jack Boone stated: .... and usually any hijack of a thread by you just causes me to give up.  But on the subject of Haarp, I know a little, and you can google a lot more.

Thank you for your support Jack. I'll promise you that dgg9 is not going to hijack this thread. He also is not going to dictate the rate of unfolding of this thread. I am sure he will attempt to do both, as that is his work, but again I assure you that it ain't gonna happen here. Thankfully, I now do not have to worry about somebody dashing in here and locking the thread. That is a relief, for sure. And if for some reason this board were to shut down altogether, it is not only backed-up for future salvage – I additionally have each page of both conspiracy theory threads backed up on removable discs. Come hell or high water, this information is going to be brought to the light of common understanding.

While you and I are not scientists, we are intelligent men of conscience. We possess a keen sense of moral justice. We are foresworn to work for liberty and freedom for every human being on this earth. We are the “salt of the earth”. As I know your resolve and your wisdom from our visits at the 2003 LRT Conclave, I know you well enough, I trust, to include you in that description just stated. Dgg9 would deny it if I told him that a damned rock could store the heat from the sun and warm a lizard with that heat at night – if he thought he could cloud any issue which is sensitive to the goddam government today. His style is to demand that you and I “prove” that a rock will hold sun-sourced heat even after the sun has gone down for the night. That is not what you and I are required to do. What we are required to do is simply speak our truth as it comes from our hearts, and offer clear and meaningful evidence which would support that truth well for any reasonable human being. We are not required to prove the science of rocket-launching just to satisfy this guy – all we need do is state that we're sure that somebody is launching rockets from the surface of the earth. If dgg9 can't believe that because we cannot render up a scientific paper on it, then that is not our problem. Instead, it's dgg9's problem. Readers of this thread can read for themselves and draw conclusions as they may. I'm not concerned about appearing to be a “conspiracy nut” to people who have reasons to perpetuate the concealment of a conspiracy. My words shall stand for themselves, except in twisted minds of course, which can only twist the meanings and statements of clear minds. Dgg9 uses a wide variety of assistance in seeking to obfuscate the dispersion of information here, and likely has an office and excellent resources at hand for his work. I have no idea who he works for, but I'd guess it could be any group from the ADL or Southern Poverty Law Center to a security branch of a major pharmaceutical or defense-contractor company – he strikes me as being several levels above the common mean of your usual government psy-ops thug. But whoever he's working for, they're not good enough to function in the light of day, and people like you and me, with warm blood in strong hearts, are still standing to oppose such treachery.
That said, here is an example, but just one of many, which should show our doubting antagonist that the science does exist which shall back up my carefully-worded claims (but not necessarily those twisted interpretations of my claims as put forth here by dgg9). After posting this much, I'll go walk my cat, who is impatiently asking me to join him for the evening's peaceful moods which are spawned by the snow-capped Tobacco Root mountains west of our hideout here. Then I'll come back with some goodies which shall show conclusively that this government, stolen from our hands and now running berserk to our demise by its own powers, intently is suppressing any attempt by anyone to expose one of their more massive covert operations – the altering of our atmosphere. What I'll bring here to illustrate that point should warm ladylearning's heart.

~

BARIUM TESTS ARE POSITIVE

Clifford E Carnicom
Santa Fe, New Mexico
May 24 2004

A series of qualitative chemical tests and deductions now confirm without doubt the presence of significant amounts of barium within atmospheric samples. Citizens may now begin the process of collecting the sample materials for formal submission to public environmental agencies and private labs for identification. The testing process can be done at modest expense and the results from laboratory analysis can now be qualitatively and independently verified without great difficulty. Any testing service employed will need to be able to demonstrate no vested interest in the outcome of the results, accuracy of method, and the willingness to have the testing process independently monitored.

The material under analysis has been collected by a plate ionizing filter; it may also be collected with conventional fiber filtration over a longer period of time. HEPA filter collection and subsequent electrolysis of the filter material placed in distilled water has also proven successful. Extended time periods may be required to collect a sufficient volume of material for electrolytic processing and external testing preferences. Readers are referred to previous articles1,2 for two methods of collection. The use of electrolysis is significant in producing a final compound for testing purposes. The solid materials (powder/ crystals) collected by the plate ionizing filter, assuming they satisify the test procedures described on this page, will be sufficient for laboratory analysis. Qualitative chemical tests and flame tests positively establish the significant presence of barium compounds within the atmospheric sample.

Citizens with sufficient environmental concern are encouraged to begin this process of sample collection and identification, along with the documentation of the responses of both public and private environmental services.

Additional Notes:
The process of collection and analysis is summarized as follows:

1. Solid materials are collected with the use of a plate ionizing filter or fiber based filters as described previously.1,2
2. The material can be subjected to low power microscopic viewing to verify similiarity of material form before proceeding. The powder/crystal material under collection has a tan, beige or gray cast to it. The presence of fibrous materials within the sample is not the focus of this report, and further analysis of those materials may occur at a later time.
3. The solid powder/crystal material that is the subject of this report will be found to dissolve easily within distilled water. Extremely small samples have been used for all tests as the material requires time and effort to collect in sufficient quantity. For testing purposes, samples of a fraction of a gram have been dissolved within a few milliliters of distilled water.
4. Solutions of higher concentrations, e.g., 1 part solid to 3 parts water will be found to be strongly alkaline. This indicates the presence of a base and hydroxide ions. A pH value of 9 was recorded in the test that is the subject of this report.
5. A weak solution (fraction of a gram to 40ml water) will be found to permit significant electrolysis reactions. A variety of electrodes have been used to verify the chemical results, including aluminum, iron, copper, silver and graphite electrodes. The work at this point establishes the presence of a soluble metallic hydroxide form in solution.
6. Chromatography experiments and comparative analysis allows us to conclude that the atomic mass of the metallic cation under examination is greater than that of copper, or greater than 63.5 atomic mass units.3 Cations under reasonable consideration4 therefore include:
Ag+, Au+2, Ba+2, Bi+3, Cd+2, Ce+4, Cs+, Ga+3, Hg+2, Pb+2, Rb+, Sb+3, Sn+2, Sr+2
7. The results of electrolysis with graphite electrodes permits us to conclude that a reactive metal is a component5 of the metallic hydroxide under examination.
8. The electrochemical series and the half-reaction electrode potentials are therefore consulted6,7 to establish a list of reasonable candidates for the cation of the metallic salt which disassociates in solution to permit electrolysis. The list of candidate cations, with the condition of hydroxide formation included, is now reduced to:
Ba+2, Sr+2, Rb+ and Cs+ with oxidation potentials of 2.91, 2.90, 2.98 and 3.03 volts respectively.
It is noticed that this group is now closely confined within the periodic table, and that chemical properties of these elements are in many ways shared. It is also instructive to note the remarkable similiarity in the work functions of these elements, which is an expression of the ionization capabililty of the element.
9. Each of these cations must form a soluble hydroxide. Solubility tables8 indicate that these conditions are satisified by each of the hydroxide forms: Ba(OH)2, Sr(OH)2, RbOH and CsOH.
10. Practical levels of worldwide production of the elements are helpful to consider9. Barium and strontium both are produced at high tonnage levels worldwide, rubidium and cesium are inconsequential in production. Barium production is stated at 6 million tons per year, strontium at 137,000 tons, cesium at 20 tons and rubidium in such low levels as to not be available. Common hydroxide forms are also to be considered in this analysis. This reduces the candidate cation list to strontium and barium, whereupon additional conditions of qualitative testing are to be imposed.
11. The material in solution must produce a cation and a hydroxide ion in solution. Precipitate tests are conducted with carbonate, oxalate and sulfate compounds for the existence of barium or strontium ions, using a combination of the unknown with sodium carbonate, sodium oxalate and copper sulfate10. The material in question forms a precipitate under all three conditions. The consideration of barium hydroxide and strontium hydroxide continues to be valid under under these results.
12. The precipitate formed with the use of copper sulfate is hypothesized to be barium sulfate. The precipitate formed under electrolysis is also hypothesized to be a barium sulphate compound. Solubility tests are necessary to test this hypothesis. The precipitate and the compound formed from electrolysis pass the solubility tests when subjected to water, hydrochloric acid, sulfuric acid and ethanol. The identification of barium sulphate remains valid. The sulfate precipitate fails the solubility test for strontium sulfate, as strontium sulfate is soluble in hydrochloric acid. The sulphate compound that has been formed by both displacement and electrolysis is highly insoluble, and is insoluble in hydrochloric acid.
13. The solubility test for barium carbonate should also be verified. The carbonate precipitate is soluble in hydrochloric acid and passes this test. The identification of barium compounds in the analysis remains valid. No solubility tests for barium oxalate are specified11.
14. The next test which is to be conducted is the flame test. Barium burns yellow-green under the flame test12,13. A sample of the electrolysis compound, identified as barium sulphate, is subjected to a flame test using a nichrome wire. The compound is observed to burn with a yellow-green color. The identification of barium compounds within the analysis is valid under all conditions and circumstances examined.
15. The final test is a viewing of the spectrum of the flame test with a calibrated spectroscope and an optical spectroscope. Dominant green and yellow emission spectral lines are measured at approximately 515 (wider line, boundary line) and 587 nanometers (narrow and distinct), they are confirmed with the optical spectroscope, and they correspond to the green and yellow wavelengths specified for the flame test. A secondary wide line in the green portion of the spectrum borders at approximately 560nm. For comparison purposes, the spectrum of barium chloride and barium hydroxide test salts in solution appears and measures identically within the green portion of the spectrum. The identification of barium compounds within the analysis remains valid under all conditions and examined and tests conducted.
The most reasonable hypothesis at this point is that the original compound is a barium oxide form. This compound readily combines with water to form barium hydroxide. The ionizing plate filter and the fiber filter both appear to be successful at accumulating the solid form of this metallic salt. Solubility, pH, precipitation, chromatography, electrode, electrolysis, flame, spectroscopy and spectroscopy comparison tests all support the conclusion within this report that significant levels of barium compounds have been verified to exist and are now to be examined in the atmospheric sampling process. This report corroborates, at an elevated level, the previous research that is available on this site.
This page is subject to revision.

References:
1. Clifford E Carnicom, Electrolysis and Barium, (http://www.carnicom.com/precip1.htm), May 27, 2002
2. Carnicom, Sub-Micron Particulates Isolated, (http://www.carnicom.com/micro3.htm), Apr 26, 2004
3. Frank Eshelman, Ph.D., MicroChem Manual (Frank Eschelman, www.microchemkits.com, 2003), 1-4, 76.
4. Gordon J. Coleman, The Addison-Wesley Science Handbook (Addison-Wesley, 1997), 130.
5. Andrew Hunt, A-Z Chemistry, (McGraw-Hill, 2003), 125.
6. David R. Lide, CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, (CRC Press, 2001), 8-21 to 8-31.
7. Fred C. Hess, Chemistry Made Simple, (Doubleday, 1984), 89, 91.
8. Lide, 4-37 to 4-96.
9. John Emsley, The Elements, (Clarendon Press, 1998), 30-31, 46-47, 176-177, 196-197.
10. University of Nebraska-Lincoln, The Identification of Ions, (http://dwb.unl.edu/Chemistry/LABS/LABS10.html)
11. Lide, 4-44.
12. Hunt, 152-153.
13. Infoplease Encyclopedia, Flame Test, (http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0818856.html)

~

See ya in a little bit, Bro.
Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 19, 2006, 09:11:16 pm
Dgg9 would deny it if I told him that a damned rock could store the heat from the sun and warm a lizard with that heat at night – if he thought he could cloud any issue which is sensitive to the goddam government today. His style is to demand that you and I “prove” that a rock will hold sun-sourced heat even after the sun has gone down for the night. That is not what you and I are required to do. What we are required to do is simply speak our truth as it comes from our hearts, and offer clear and meaningful evidence which would support that truth well for any reasonable human being. We are not required to prove the science of rocket-launching just to satisfy this guy – all we need do is state that we're sure that somebody is launching rockets from the surface of the earth. If dgg9 can't believe that because we cannot render up a scientific paper on it, then that is not our problem.

Ok, as expected, more of the same completely dishonest BS, and the same tendentious strawmen.

"and offer clear and meaningful evidence which would support that truth well for any reasonable human being." 

Yes, that's exactly what I'm asking, and what you have completely evaded, in favor of ad hom.  I'm NOT asking for a scientific paper, and since I said that exact thing several times, you're simply lying now.  What I asked for -- and what you have evaded -- is a basic entry-level scientific defense of thethe feasibility of the underlying concept.  If you can't or won't supply that, just say so.  And if you're too scientifically and technically illiterate to evaluate your own claims, just admit that.  Never mind -- you just did.

Btw, your "barium" paste is worthless -- it's from that same quack website, and carries zero value.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 19, 2006, 10:23:01 pm
Dgg9 would deny it if I told him that a damned rock could store the heat from the sun and warm a lizard with that heat at night – if he thought he could cloud any issue which is sensitive to the goddam government today. His style is to demand that you and I “prove” that a rock will hold sun-sourced heat even after the sun has gone down for the night. That is not what you and I are required to do. What we are required to do is simply speak our truth as it comes from our hearts, and offer clear and meaningful evidence which would support that truth well for any reasonable human being. We are not required to prove the science of rocket-launching just to satisfy this guy – all we need do is state that we're sure that somebody is launching rockets from the surface of the earth. If dgg9 can't believe that because we cannot render up a scientific paper on it, then that is not our problem.

Ok, as expected, more of the same completely dishonest BS, and the same tendentious strawmen.

"and offer clear and meaningful evidence which would support that truth well for any reasonable human being." 

Yes, that's exactly what I'm asking, and what you have completely evaded, in favor of ad hom.  I'm NOT asking for a scientific paper, and since I said that exact thing several times, you're simply lying now.  What I asked for -- and what you have evaded -- is a basic entry-level scientific defense of thethe feasibility of the underlying concept.  If you can't or won't supply that, just say so.  And if you're too scientifically and technically illiterate to evaluate your own claims, just admit that.  Never mind -- you just did.

Btw, your "barium" paste is worthless -- it's from that same quack website, and carries zero value.

U.S. military aircraft have been spraying materials into the atmosphere since at least 1999. The U.S. military emphatically denies that this is happening. The U.S. military states on the record that the U.S. military is not spraying anything from U.S. government aircraft.
The U.S. military claims that the entire public outcry against the spraying missions constitute a hoax. The U.S. military states on the record that U.S. military aircraft are not involved in any sort of spraying operations. The U.S. military accuses anyone who seeks assistance from the military, the EPA, and any other government agency in analyzing the materials which are being sprayed into our atmosphere of being "quacks". The U.S. military dismisses serious requests by concerned citizens across the country with form letters that attempt to assure the concerned citizens that nothing is being sprayed in our skies. I have the names of several of the U.S. military officers who have gone on the public record saying that the U.S. military is not spraying anything into the atmosphere.

The U.S. military is lying through its teeth.

The barium which was discussed in the paper which I offered  in my previous post is not an indigenous element of the atmosphere, but can only be contained in our atmosphere by means of human-related insertion. In this case it is sprayed into our atmosphere by U.S. military aircraft. The barium samples tested were obtained after over-head spraying operations had been conducted.

The scientific methodology which Clifford Carnicom used is there for all to see and duplicate for their own satisfaction. Like the U.S. military, you have called Clifford Carnicom a "quack". I suppose that you and the U.S. military would have we the people deny our own senses and believe that no chem-trails (aerosol sprays) are being sprayed in our skies, and that if any of we mere citizens suspect that something is being sprayed into our atmosphere we must be "conspiracy nuts" and "quacks". Sorry, budrow, but some of us are not buying the government package on this. Allow me to show you an example of the abuse given one of my friends here in Montana for his efforts to seek answers to his questions regarding these spraying missions. The man who wrote the letters below is a rancher-farmer who lives not far from me at Willow Creek, Montana. I visit with the gentleman often, as I also visit with Montana Representatives in the state government here. This gentleman is real, he is a loyal and patriotic American who's son served this goddam lying-assed government in Desert Storm. He and his son both are true Americans, good people, and are personal friends with me - you can simply believe that they exist here in Montana, and that they are not alone in their concerns about what is happening to America and to Americans at the hand of our berserk government. Go ahead, give the letters a read and see for yourself that the goddam government denies the operation of spraying missions over our lands and lives:

~

March 06, 1999

Senator Conrad Burns 
Washington, D.C.

Dear Senator Burns:

   During your tenure as United States Senator from Montana, I have written you regarding such things as gun control, private property rights, and concerns over certain treaties.  I am conservative and Constitutional in my beliefs, morals and politics, and try to not be overly paranoid in expressing concerns about what has happened, and is happening, to America.  That dislike of the paranoid causes me considerable reluctance to write this letter, but I feel that the issue of concern can no longer be ignored.

   I am writing to bring to your attention the peculiar characteristics of the contrails of high-flying military jet aircraft.  For some months now I have noticed that on certain clear days a large number of these planes will fly, mostly east/west, their flight paths being spaced at near regular intervals across the sky.  Interestingly, these contrails do not disappear, as do those of commercial airliners, but tend to thin out and expand and will, over the course of several hours, create an artificial cloud cover over almost the entire sky.  This has happened twice this week, first on Tuesday, March 2, and again today.  As I write this letter, an artificial, contrail-created cloud cover is noticeably diminishing the strength of the sun on what would otherwise be a clear day.

   As I said, Senator Burns, I try to avoid crossing into the realm of paranoia regarding many strange goings on in America and with our government, but there is no question in my mind that this contrail cloud phenomena is happening.  Have you heard anything about this from others of your constituents, or from other Senators, or other American citizens?

   Although it is with reluctance that I write this letter, I feel the time has come for this to be brought into open discussion.  I urge you to ask some questions of your colleagues, question the Department of Defense and the Air Force, and if necessary, push to get hearings held to find out what is going on.

Sincerely,
Joe

~

(http://people.montana.com/~mothrlod/images/Frame1.JPG)

~

(http://people.montana.com/~mothrlod/images/Frame2.JPG)

~

June 13, 1999



Stephen D. Bull, III
Colonel, USAF
Chief, Programs and Legislation Division
SAF/LLP
1160 Air Force Pentagon
Washington, DC  20330-1160

Dear Colonel Bull:

   Thank you for your response to my letter regarding my concerns about contrails, which I had sent to Senator Conrad Burns, and which he subsequently forwarded to you.  I am assuming that your letter states an official federal government position, and is not necessarily formulated from your own personal views.  Under such an assumption, it is obvious from the content of your letter that my concerns over contrails are not the first the Air Force has heard of this.

   In my letter to Senator Burns I made no statement of any kind that I was concerned about “a health threat to the general public.”  Neither did I mention ethylene dibromide (EDB), JP-8, or the Internet, all of which were addressed in your response.  It is interesting that the Air Force will go on record making denials to me about things I didn’t even mention.

   The specific concerns my letter raised were the observed facts of the large number of daily military jet flights across our section of sky, the distinctively spaced intervals at which these flights frequently occur, and the resultant long lasting cloud covers which artificially diminish the intensity of sunshine over the entire region.  My letter concluded by suggesting this country needs an open and honest dialogue about this matter, involving the military and including, if necessary, Congressional hearings, an option that now seems virtually mandated.

   Looking at a couple of the specifics of your letter, I find an interesting contradiction, namely that you claim that jet engine emissions are “basically the same as from car or diesel engines,” and that contrails pose no “environmental hazard or risk to human health.”  While it may be that contrails are composed solely of water vapor and pose no threat, a claim I do not necessarily accept as true, the fact that the flights themselves produce emissions the same as from car or diesel engines certainly negates any suggestion that the flights are benign and pose no environmental or human health risks.  In fact, another federal agency, the EPA, seems so deeply concerned about that kind of emission that its head, Carol Browner, would like to restrict my ability to drive my car, mow my lawn, and barbecue beefsteaks in my own back yard.

   Your letter, while implying the complete safety of these flights, offers no documented studies to the effect, either by the EPA or anyone else, that these flights in fact pose no danger to southwestern Montana’s air, soil, water, plants, animals or human beings.

   Your letter also contained a passing, seemingly negative reference to “misinformation on the Internet and other sources.”  Assuming I understand what you mean by “other sources,” I have certainly read information in both realms, and find it to cover, in both places, a broad range of quality, from the seemingly very good, to the seemingly very paranoid.  And yet, even from that “seemingly very paranoid,” certain fair questions emerge.  For instance, does the bronchial health of older and other generally more frail persons suffer as a result of these flights and contrails?  And, in some places has a white substance settled to the ground, apparently from contrails, that shows the presence of ethylene dibromide and other indeterminate chemical compounds?  Also, while we’re discussing questions, I have one particular one of my own: Why, in the early afternoon of March 21, 1999, did I observe in a contrail formed cloud, the distinct occurrence of a yellowish-brown corona which lasted for more than half an hour?  Did water vapor produce that off-colored corona?  I sort of tend to doubt it.

   My ultimate question here must be, does the Air Force, or anyone in the military for that matter, care enough to check the veracity of any of these claims, or do they prefer to handwave it, and label it simply as “misinformation from the Internet and other sources”?

   In regard specifically to the Internet, I direct you to a NOAA website, located at (forgive the complex URL):

      http://www.osei.noaa.gov/Events/Unique/Other/UNIcontrails042_N5.jpg.  [Web reader, please see Note below]

   You will see at this site a satellite photo taken 2/11/99, showing, from southern Virginia up into northern Ohio, Pennsylvania and New York, a contrail cloud cover of the exact same kind found all too frequently spanning the once-clear-blue skies of southwestern Montana.

   In addition to those briefly addressed in this letter, other obvious questions about contrails need to be asked, and answered.  For instance, Why is the contrail phenomena a new one, never having been seen, as far as I can recall, until the last five years or so?  How many flights occur on average, or on peak, days?  Is it tens, hundreds, or thousands?  Why do we have so many flights on any given day?  Where do they originate, and end?  What is their purpose in terms of the real national interest?  What is the cost of these flights to the American taxpayer?  What is the exact chemical composition of the fuel burned on these flights, and what is the resultant pollution produced, both in weight and composition?  What are the densities and effects of this pollution as it falls each day across the face of the United States?  Clearly, I could go on and on here, but hopefully you begin to get the point.

   And of course the real question, Colonel Bull, is not just about contrails; it is about a federal government that is, in light of the now decimated United States of America Constitution, clearly out of control; it is about a federal government that continues to further substantiate its own well-proven lack of veracity; it is about a federal government that continues to separate itself from the American people, the very people that in fact allow it to exist.

   We need to get answers to the complete scope of questions and concerns regarding contrails, and we need them in considerably more detail than that given by the seemingly pat responses contained in your letter.  I am convinced that we need Congressional oversight hearings into the matter, and possibly a complete suspension of these flights until satisfactory details, information and just plain old truth can be ferreted out.

Sincerely,
Joe

~

June 13, 1999


Senator Conrad Burns 
187 Dirksen Senate Office Building
Washington, DC 20510Washington, D.C.


Dear Senator Burns:

   Thank you for your response to my letter of March 6, 1999 regarding contrails, and for forwarding it to the Department of the Air Force requesting a response from them.  I have received a response from Colonel Stephen D. Bull, a copy of which I am enclosing for your information.  I am also enclosing a copy to you of my response to the Colonel.

   As I stated in my letter to Colonel Bull, I feel his response was inadequate in light of the number of flights occurring, the persistent day-in/day-out artificial cloud covers appearing over southwestern Montana’s sky, and the numerous questions and concerns that seem either ignored or all too easily brushed aside by the supposedly responsible federal agencies.

   During the last half of March, 1999, I kept a “contrails skywatch diary”.  It makes interesting reading, in that virtually every otherwise clear day was heavily marred by the covering of contrail-created clouds.  As I write this today, what would be a clear blue sky is probably at least 60% impacted by hundreds of flights that have generated broad, long lasting, contrail-created clouds.

   I urge you to canvas your Senate and House colleagues to better determine the scope of, and level of general concern over, this problem.  I also urge you to consider, and discuss with those same colleagues, the need for Congressional oversight hearings to bring out a balanced, truthful, and considerably more detailed analysis of the entire contrails phenomenon.

Sincerely,


Joe

~


(http://people.montana.com/~mothrlod/images/Frame3.JPG)

~

November 16, 1999

Senator Conrad Burns 
187 Dirksen Senate Office Building
Washington, DC 20510Washington, D.C.

Dear Senator Burns:

   On March 6, 1999, I sent a letter to you regarding my concerns over the almost daily creation of significant cloud covers by high flying military jet aircraft.  You kindly responded, terming the contrails as “chemtrails”, and forwarded my letter to the Department of Defense.

   In response to that letter, I received a reply from Colonel Stephen D. Bull, USAF, explaining briefly the cause and harmlessness of contrails.  I took considerable exception to the explanations and assurances contained in Col. Bull’s letter, and in fact on June 13, wrote these exceptions in a return letter to the colonel, copying to you both his letter and my reply.

   On July 26, I received a letter from you explaining the harmlessness of contrails, and using as evidence a paragraph from Colonel Bull’s letter, a paragraph that I had taken particular exception to.  I found this to be an astounding response from you, that in attempting to assuage my concerns you would use information from Col. Bull’s letter that I clearly and specifically disagreed with.

   I have received no further reply from Col. Bull, which does not surprise me.  But to have been so casually dismissed by your office is disconcerting, and I suspect that it sent a message you are not to be bothered with such mundane concerns by the average low-class Montana citizen.

   The planes are flying again to day, and have created, as on almost every day this summer, a phenomenal and very artificial cloud cover over southwestern Montana.  I still reject most of what was in Col. Bull’s letter, and wrote a fair disputation of it.  Does any of this matter to you?

Sincerely,
Joe

~

As of the current date, Joe has received no further response from either Senator Burns, or Colonel Bull.

~

I am in possession of other letters, from other US Department of Defense officers, saying the very same thing as Colonel Bull said to Joe. As I said above, the EPA, the Department of State, the Pentagon, many agencies of the U.S. Intelligence community, many corporate offices, many mass-media offices, and a host of other complicitors have openly declared the entire phemonemon of areosol spraying missions to be nothing more than a "hoax".

Now, dgg9 - on which side of this line do you see yourself standing? You and I both know that the government is spraying materials into our atmosphere; that those spraying operations are tied in with the HAARP program; that the U.S. military is involved; that not only metals are included in those sprays but also there are fungi which are harming the human populations as we speak. In fact, you and I both know a lot more than is sitting on this thread at this time. I see myself as representative of the common American citizen who is being deceived about this massive covert operation. I further see anyone posting here their support for the people's struggle to regain control and accountability over their berserk government as being on the same side of justice and truth and transparency as am I.  However, anyone who persistently seeks to undermine the truth of what is being presented here must be seen as standing on the side of the government. So I ask you - who's side are you on?

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 19, 2006, 11:15:27 pm
While we're wondering about why our dearly beloved government would be lying to us, and why anyone registered at The Claire Files message boards would be attacking my efforts to expose a massive conspiracy being conducted by our government, let's lay some more of dgg9's slams at me to rest. As noted, I make no claim to be a scientist. I do not feel that it is my burden to detail and analyze the works of scientists. What I'm good at is sniffing out lies. But to humor my antagonist on this thread, I think that now I shall lay out a little bit from HAARP itself - thanks to the good work of one of my favorite "quacks", Clifford Carnicom. dgg9, read it and weep....

Oh, and btw, here's a wink to ladylearning.... :)

~

HAARP

HF ACTIVE AURORAL RESEARCH PROGRAM

JOINT SERVICES PROGRAM PLANS AND ACTIVITIES

AIR FORCE
GEOPHYSICS LABORATORY

NAVY
OFFICE OF NAVAL RESEARCH

HF ACTIVE AURORAL RESEARCH PROGRAM (HAARP)

TABLE OF CONTENTS

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

1. INTRODUCTION

2. POTENTIAL APPLICATIONS
2.1. Geophysical Probing
2.2. Generation of ELF/VLF Waves
2.3. Generation of Ionospheric Holes/Lens
2.4. Electron Acceleration
2.5. Generation of Field Aligned Ionization
2.6. Oblique HF Heating
2.7. Generation of Ionization Layers Below 90 Km

3. IONOSPHERIC ISSUES ASSOCIATED WITH HIGH POWER RF HEATING
3.1. Thresholds of Ionospheric Effects
3.2. General Ionospheric Issues
3.3. High Latitude Ionospheric Issues

4. DESIRED HF HEATING FACILITY
4.1 Heater Characteristics
4.1.1 Effective-Radiated-power (ERP]
4.1.2 Frequency Range of Operation
4.1.3 Scanning Capabilities
4.1.4. Modes of Operation
4.1.5 Wave Polarization
4.1.6 Agility in Changing Heater Parameters

4.2. Heater Diagnostics
4.2.1. Incoherent Scatter Radar Facility
4.2.2. Other Diagnostics
4.2.3. Additional Diagnostics for ELF Generation Experiments

4.3. HF Heater Location
4.4. Estimated Cost of the New Heating Facility

5. PROGRAM PARTICIPANTS

6. PLANS FOR RESEARCH ON THE GENERATION OF ELF SIGNALS IN THE IONOSPHERE BY MODULATING THE POLAR ELECTROJET
6.1. Ionospheric Issues as They Relate to ELF Generation
6.1.1 Ionospheric Research Needs
6.1.2. Ionospheric Research Recommendations
6.2 HF to ELF Excitation Efficiency
6.2.1. Low-Altitude Heating Issues
6.2.2. Low-Altitude Heating Research Recommendations
6.2.3. High-Altitude Heating Issues
6.2.4. High-Altitude Heating Research Recommendations
6.3. Submarine Communication Issues Associated With Exploiting ELF Signals Generated in the Ionosphere by HF Heating
6.3.1. General Research Issues
6.3.2. Specific ELF Systems Issuesv 6.4. ELF System-Related Research Recommendations

7. SUMMARY OF HAARP INITIATION ACTIVITIES
7.1. HAARP Steering Group
7.2. Summary of HAARP Steering Group Activities and Schedule

APPENDIX A HF Heating Facilities

APPENDIX B Workshop on Ionospheric Modification and generation of ELF
Workshop Agenda
Workshop Attendance Roster

HAARP -- HF Active Auroral Research
Program

Executive Summary

As described in the accompanying report, the HF Active Auroral Ionospheric Research Program (HAARP) is especially attractive in that it will insure that research in an emerging, revolutionary, technology area will be focused towards identifying and exploiting techniques to greatly enhance C3 capabilities. The heart of the program will be the development of a unique high frequency (HF) ionospheric heating capability to conduct the pioneering experiments required under the program.

Applications

An exciting and challenging aspect of ionospheric enhancement is its potential to control ionospheric processes in such a way as to greatly improve the performance of C3 systems. A key goal of the program is the identification and investigation of those ionospheric processes and phenomena that can be exploited for DOD purposes, such as those outlined below.

Generation of ELF waves in the 70-150 Hz band to provide communications to deeply submerged submarines. A program to develop efficient ELF generation techniques is planned under the DOD ionospheric enhancement program.

Geophysical probing to identify and characterize natural ionospheric processes that limit the performance of C3 systems, so that techniques can be developed to mitigate or control them. Generation of ionospheric lenses to focus large amounts of HF energy at high altitudes in the ionosphere, thus providing a means for triggering ionospheric processes that potentially could be exploited for DOD purposes.

Electron acceleration for the generation of IR and other optical emissions, and to create additional ionization in selected regions of the ionosphere that could be used to control radio wave - propagation properties.

Generation of geomagnetic-field aligned ionization to control the reflection/scattering properties of radio waves.

Oblique heating to produce effects on radio wave propagation at great distances from a HF heater, thus broadening the potential military applications of ionospheric enhancement technology.

Generation of ionization layers below 90 km to provide, radio wave reflectors (mirrors) which can be exploited for long range, over-the-horizon, HF/VHF/UHF surveillance purposes, including the detection of cruise missiles and other low observables.

Desired HF Heater Characteristics

A new, unique, HF heating facility is required to address the broad range of issues identified above. However, in order to have a useful facility at various stages of its development, it is important that the heater be constructed in a modular manner, such that its effective-radiated-power can be increased in an efficient, cost effective manner as resources become available.

Effective-Radiated-Powers (ERP) in Excess of 1 Gigawatt

One gigawatt of effective-radiated-power represents an important threshold power level, over which significant wave generation and electron acceleration efficiencies can be achieved, and other significant heating effects can be expected.

Broad HF Frequency Range

The desired heater would have a frequency range from around 1 MHz to about 15 MHz, thereby allowing a wide range of ionospheric processes to be investigated.

Scanning Capabilities

A heater that has rapid scanning capabilities is very desirable to enlarge the size of heated regions in the ionosphere Continuous Wave (CW) and Pulse Modes of Operation. Flexibility in choosing heating modes of operation will allow a wider variety of ionospheric enhancement techniques and issues to be addressed.

Polarization

The facility should permit both X and O polarization in order to study ionospheric processes over a range of altitudes.

Agility in Changing Heater Parameters

The ability to quickly change the heater parameters is important for addressing such issues as enlarging the size of the heated region the ionosphere and the development of techniques to insure that the energy densities desired in the ionosphere can be delivered without self-limiting effects setting-in.

HF Heating Diagnostics

In order to understand natural ionospheric processes as well as those induced through active modification of the ionosphere, adequate instrumentation is required to measure a wide range of ionospheric .parameters on the appropriate- temporal and spatial scales. A key diagnostic these measurements will be an incoherent scatter radar facility to provide the means to monitor such background plasma conditions as electron densities, electron and ion temperatures, and electric fields, all as a function of altitude. The incoherent scatter radar facility, envisioned to complement the planned new HF heater, is currently being funded in a separate DOD program, as part of an upgrade at the Poker Flat rocket range, in Alaska.

For ELF generation experiments, the diagnostics complement would include a chain of ELF receivers, a digital HF ionosonde, a magnetometer chain, photometers, a VLF sounder, and a VHF riometer. In other experiments, in situ measurements of the heated region in the ionosphere, via rocket-borne instrumentation, would also be very desirable. Other diagnostics to be employed, depending on the nature of the ionospheric modifications being implemented, will include HF receivers, HF/VHF radars, optical imagers, and scintillation observations.

HF Heater Location

One of the major issues to be addressed under the program is the generation of ELF waves in the ionosphere by HF heating. This requires location the heater where there are strong ionospheric currents, either at an equatorial location or a high latitude (auroral) location. Additional factors to be considered in locating the heater include other technical (research) needs and requirements, environmental issues, future expansion capabilities (real estate), infrastructure, and considerations of the availability and location of diagnostics. The location of the new HF heating facility is planned for Alaska, relatively near to a new incoherent scatter facility, already planned for the Poker Flat rocket range under a separate DOD program.

In addition, it is desirable that the HF heater be located to permit rocket probe instrumentation to be flown into the heated region of the ionosphere. The exact location in Alaska for the proposed new HF heating facility has not yet been determined.

Estimated Cost of the New HF Heating Facility

It is estimated that eight to ten million dollars ($8-10M) will provide a new facility with an effective-radiated-power of approximately that of the current DOD facility (HIPAS), but with considerable improvement in frequency tunability and antenna-beam steering capability. The facility will be of modular design to permit efficient and cost-effective upgrades in power as additional funds become available. The desired (world-class) facility, having the broad capabilities and flexibility described above, will cost on the order of twenty-five to thirty million dollars ($25-30M).

Program Participants

The program will be jointly managed by the Navy and the Air Force. However, because of the wide variety of issues to be addressed, active participation of the government agencies, universities, and private contractors is envisioned.

HF Active Auroral Research Program

The DOD HF Active Auroral Research Program (HAARP) is especially attractive in that it will insure that research in an emerging, revolutionary, technology area will be focused towards identifying and exploiting techniques to greatly enhance C3 capabilities. The heart of the program will be the development of a unique ionospheric heating capability to conduct the pioneering experiments required to adequately assess the potential for exploiting ionospheric enhancement technology for DOD (Dept. of Defense) purposes. As outlined below, such a research facility will provide the means for investigating the creation, maintenance, and control of a large number and wide variety of ionospheric processes that, if exploited, could provide significant operational capabilities and advantages over conventional C3 systems. The research to be conducted in the program will include basic, exploratory, and applied efforts.

1. Introduction

DoD agencies already have on-going efforts in the broad area of active ionospheric experiments, including ionospheric enhancements. These include both space- and ground-based approaches. The space-based efforts include chemical releases (e.g., the Air Force's Brazilian Ionospheric Modification Experiment, BIME; the Navy's RED AIR program; and multi-agency participation in the Combined Release and Radiation Effects Satellite, CRRES). In addition other, planned, programs will employ particle beams and accelerators aboard rockets (e.g., EXCEDE and CHARGE IV), and shuttle- or satellite-borne RF transmitters (e.g., WISP and ACTIVE). Ground-based techniques employ the use of high power, radio frequency (RF), transmitters (so-called "heaters") to provide the energy in the ionosphere that causes it to be altered, or enhanced. The use of such heaters has a number of advantages over space-based approaches.

These include the possibility of repeating experiments under controlled conditions, and the capability of conducting a wide variety of experiments using the same facility. For example, depending on the RF frequency and effective radiated power (ERP) used, different regions of the atmosphere and the ionosphere can be affected to produce a number of practical effects, as illustrated in Table 1. Because of the large number and wide variety of those. effects, and because many of them have the potential to be exploited for important C3 applications, the program is focused on developing a robust program in the area of ground-based, high power RF heating of the ionosphere.

~End copied section from a HAARP report. The rest of this report is available here:
http://www.viewzone.com/haarp.exec.html

Ah, hell. On second thought, since this is very interesting reading matter, let's just put the rest of the damned report right up on this thread. Heck, it may answer many of dgg9's questions, even some he has not asked yet. Conspiracy "theory" my ass! :)

Continuing next post. Meanwhile, I suggest, as usual, that all good conspiracy theorists go to that HAARP page and save that document for future reference. Next part of the document coming up.
~
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 19, 2006, 11:27:23 pm
continuing with HAARP's confessions....
~

 To date, most DoD ionospheric heating experiments have been conducted to gain better understanding of ionospheric processes, i.e., they have been used as geophysical-probes. In this, one perturbs the ionosphere, then studies how it responds to the disturbance and how it ultimately recovers back to ambient conditions. The use of ionospheric enhancement to simulate ionospheric processes and phenomena is a more recent development, made possible by the increasing knowledge being obtained on how they evolve naturally. By simulating natural ionospheric effects it is possible to assess how they may affect the performance of DoD systems. From a DoD point of view, however, the most exciting and challenging aspect of ionospheric enhancement is its potential to control ionospheric processes in such a way as to greatly enhance the performance of C3 systems (or to deny accessibility to an adversary), This is a revolutionary concept in that, rather than accepting the limitations imposed on operational systems by the natural ionosphere, it envisions seizing control of the propagation medium and shaping it to insure that a desired system capability can be achieved. A key ingredient of the DOD program is the goal of identifying and investigating those ionospheric processes and phenomena that can be exploited for such purposes.

2. Potential Applications

A brief description of a variety of potential applications of ionospheric- enhancement technology that could be addressed in the DOD program are outlined below.

2.1. Geophysical Probing

The use of ionospheric heating to investigate natural ionospheric processes is a traditional one. Such-research is still required in order to develop models of the ionosphere that can be used to reliably predict the performance of C3 systems, under both normal and disturbed ionospheric conditions. This aspect of ionospheric enhancement research is always available to the investigator; in effect, as a by-product of any ionospheric enhancement research, even if it is driven by specific system applications goals, such as discussed below.

2.2. Generation of ELF/VLF Waves

A number of critical DOD communications systems rely on the use of ELF/VLF (30 Hz-30kHz) radio waves. These include those associated with the Minimum Essential Emergency Communications Network (MEECN) and those used to disseminate messages to submerged submarines. In the latter, frequencies in the 70-150 Hz range are especially attractive, but difficult to generate efficiently with ground-based antenna systems. The potential exists for generating such waves by ground-based heating of the ionosphere. The heater is used to modulate the conductivity of the lower ionosphere, which in turn modulates ionospheric currents. This modulated current, in effect, produces a virtual antenna in the ionosphere for the radiation of radio waves. The technique has already been used to generate ELF/VLF signals at a number of vertical HF heating facilities in the West and the Soviet Union. To date, however, these efforts have been confined to essentially basic research studies, and few attempts have been made to investigate ways to increase the efficiency of such ELF/VLF generation to make it attractive for communications applications. In this regard, heater generated ELF would be attractive if it could provide significantly stronger signals than those available from the Navy's existing antenna systems in Wisconsin and Michigan. Recent theoretical research suggests that this may be possible, provided the appropriate HF heating facility was available. Because this area of research appears especially promising, and because of existing DOD requirements for ELF and VLF, it is already a primary driver of the proposed research program.

In addition to its potential application to long range, survivable, DOD communications, there is another potentially attractive application of strong ELF/VLF waves generated in the ionosphere by ground-based heaters. It is known that ELF/VLF signals generated by lightning strokes propagate through the ionosphere and interact with charged Particles trapped along geomagnetic field lines, causing them, from time to time, to precipitate into the lower ionosphere. If such processes could be reliably controlled, it would be possible to develop techniques to deplete selected regions of the radiation belts of particles, for short periods, thus allowing satellites to operate within them without harm to their electronic components, any of the critical issues associated with this concept of radiation-belt control could be investigated as part of the DOD program.

2.3. Generation of Ionospheric Holes/Lens

It is well known that HF heating produces local depletions ("holes") of electrons, thus altering the refractive properties of the ionosphere. This in turn affects the propagation of radio waves passing through that region. If techniques could be developed to exploit this phenomena in such a way as to create an artificial lens, it should be possible to use the lens as a focus to deliver much larger amounts of HF energy to higher altitudes in the ionosphere than is presently possible, thus opening up the way for triggering new ionospheric processes and phenomena that potentially could be exploited for DOD purposes. In fact, the general issue of developing techniques to insure that large energy densities can be made available at selected regions in the ionosphere, from ground-based heaters, is an important one that must be addressed in the DOD program.

2.4. Electron Acceleration

If sufficient energy densities are available in the ionosphere it should be possible to accelerate electrons to high energies, ranging from a few eV to even KeV and MeV levels. Such a capability would provide the means for a number of interesting DOD applications.

Electrons in the ionosphere accelerated to a few eV would generate a variety of IR and optical emissions. Observation and quantification of them would provide data on the concentration of minor constituents in the lower ionosphere and upper atmosphere, which cannot be obtained using conventional probing techniques. Such data would be important for the development of reliable models of the lower ionosphere which are ultimately used in developing radio-wave propagation prediction techniques. In addition, heater generated IR/optical emission, over selected areas of the earth could potentially be used to blind space-based military sensors.

Electrons accelerated to energy levels in the 14-20 eV range would produce new ionization in the ionosphere, via collisions with neutral particles. This suggests that it may be possible to "condition" the ionosphere so that it would support HF propagation during periods when the natural ionosphere was especially weak. This could potentially be exploited for long range (OTH) HF communication/surveillance purposes. Finally, the use of an HF heater to accelerate electrons to KeV or MeV energy levels could be used, in conjunction with satellite sensor measurements, for controlled investigations of the effects of high energy electrons on space platforms. There already is indication that high power transmitters on space-craft accelerate electrons in space to such high energy levels, and that those charged particles can impact on the spade- craft with harmful effects. The processes which trigger such phenomena and the development of techniques to avoid or mitigate them could be investigated as part of the DOD program.

2.5. Generation of Field Aligned Ionization

HF heating of the ionosphere produces patches of ionization that are aligned with the geomagnetic field, thus producing scattering centers for RF waves. Natural processes also produce such scatterers, as evidenced by the scintillations observed on satellite-to-ground links in the equatorial and high latitude regions. The use of a HF heater to generate such scatterers would provide a controlled way to investigate the natural physical processes that produce them, and could lead conceivably to the development of techniques to predict their natural occurrence, their structure and persistence, and (ultimately) the degree to which they would affect DOD systems.

One interesting potential application of heater induced field-aligned ionization is already a part of an on-going DOD (Air Force/RADC) research program, Ducted HF Propagation. It is known that there are high altitude ducts in the E- and F-regions of the ionosphere (110-250 km altitude range) that can support round-the-world HF Propagation. Normally, however, geometrical considerations show that it is not possible to gain access to these ducts from ground-based HF transmitters, From time-to time, however, natural gradients in the ionosphere (often associated with the day-night terminator) provide a means for scattering such HF signals into the elevated ducts. If access to such ducts could be done reliably, interesting very long range HF communications and surveillance applications can be envisioned.

For example, survivable HF propagation above nuclear disturbed ionospheric regions would be possible; or, the very long range detection of missiles breaking through the ionosphere on their way to targets, could be achieved. The use of an HF heater to produce field-aligned ionization in a controlled (reliable) way has been suggested as a means for developing such concepts, and will be tested in an up-coming satellite experiment to be conducted during FY92. The experiment calls for a heater in Alaska to generate field-aligned ionization that will scatter HF signals from a nearby transmitter into elevated ducts. A satellite receiver will record the signals to provide data on the efficiency of the field-aligned ionization as an RF scatterer, as well as the location, persistence, and HF propagation properties associated with the elevated ducts.

2.6. Oblique HF Heating

Most RF heating experiments being conducted in the West and in the Soviet Union employ vertically propagating HF waves. As such the region of the ionosphere that is affected is directly above the heater. For broader military applications, the potential for significantly altering regions of the ionosphere at relatively great distances (1000 km or more) from a heater is very desirable. This involves the concept of oblique heating. The subject takes an added importance in that higher and higher effective radiated powers are being projected for future HF communication and surveillance systems. The potential for those systems to inadvertently modify the ionosphere, thereby producing self-limiting effects, is a real one that should be investigated, In addition, the vulnerability of HF systems to unwanted effects produced by other, high power transmitters (friend or foe) should be addressed.

2.7. Generation of Ionization Layers Below 90 Km

The use of very high power RF heaters to accelerate electrons to 14-20 eV opens the way for the creation of substantial layers of ionization at altitudes where normally there are very few electrons. This concept already has been the subject of investigations by the Air Force (Geophysics Lab), the Navy (MU), and DARPA. The Air Force, in particular, has carried the concept, termed Artificial Ionospheric Mirror (AIM), to the point of demonstrating its technical viability and proposing a new initiative to conduct proof-of-concepts experiments. The RF heater(s) being considered for AIM are in the 400 MHz-3 GHz range, much higher than the HF frequencies (1.5 MHz-15 MHz) suitable for investigating the other topics discussed in this summary. As such, the DOD program (HAARP) will not be directly involved with AIM-related ionospheric enhancement efforts,

3. IONOSPHERIC ISSUES ASSOCIATED WITH HIGH POWER RF HEATING

As illustrated in Figure 1, as the HF power delivered to the ionosphere is continuously increased the dissipative process dominating the response of the geophysical environment changes discontinuously, producing a variety of ionospheric effects that require investigation. Those anticipated at very high power levels (but not yet available in the West from existing HF heaters) are especially interesting from the point of view of potential applications for DOD purposes,

3.1. Thresholds of Ionospheric Effects

At very modest HF powers, two RF waves propagating through a common volume of ionosphere will experience cross-modulation, a superposition of the amplitude modulation of one RF wave upon another. At HF effective radiated powers available to the West, measurable bulk electron and ion gas heating is achieved, electromagnetic radiation (at frequencies other than transmitted) is stimulated, and various parametric instabilities are excited in the plasma. These include those which structure the plasma so that it scatters RF energy of a wide range of wavelengths.

Figure 1. Thresholds of Ionospheric Effects as a function of Heater ERP (unavailable)

There is also evidence in the West that at peak power operation parametric instabilities begin to saturate, and at the same time modest amounts of energy begin to go into electron acceleration, resulting in modest levels of electron-impact excited airglow. This suggests that at the highest HF powers available in the West, the instabilities commonly studied are approaching their maximum RF energy dissipative capability, beyond which the plasma processes will "runaway" until the next limiting process is reached. The airglow enhancements strongly suggest that this next process then involves wave-particle interactions and electron acceleration.

The Soviets, operating at higher powers than the West, now have claimed significant stimulated ionization by electron-impact ionization. The claim is that HF energy, via wave-particle interaction, accelerates ionospheric electrons to energies well in excess of 20 electron volts (eV) so that they will ionize neutral atmospheric particles with which they collide. Given that the Soviet HF facilities are several times more powerful than the Western facilities at comparable mid-latitudes, and given that the latter appear to be on a threshold of a new "wave-particle" regime of phenomena, it is believed that the Soviets have crossed that threshold and are exploring a regime of phenomena still unavailable for study or application in the West.

The Max Planck HF facility at Tromso, Norway, possesses power comparable to that of the Soviet high power heaters, yet has never produced airglow enhancements commonly produced by US HF facilities at lower HF power, but at lower latitudes. This is attributed to a present inadequate understanding 'f how to make the auroral latitude ionosphere sustain the conditions required to allow the particle acceleration process to dominate, conditions which are achieved in the (more stable) mid- latitude regions.

What is clear, is that at the gigawatt and above effective radiated power energy density deposited in limited regions of the ionosphere can drastically alter its thermal, refractive, scattering, and emission character over a very wide electromagnetic (radio frequency) and optical spectrum, what is needed is the knowledge of how to select desired effects and suppress undesired ones. At present levels of understanding, this can only be done by: identifying and understanding what basic processes are involved, and how they interplay, This can only be done if driven by a strong experimental program steered by tight coupling to the interactive cycle of developing theory-model-experimental test.

3.2. General Ionospheric Issues

When a high-power HF radio wave reflects in the ionosphere, a variety of instability processes are triggered. At early times (less than 200 ms) following HF turn-on, microinstabilities driven by ponderomotive forces are excited over a large (1-10 km) altitude interval extending downwards from the point of HF reflection to the region of the upper hybrid resonance. However, at very early times (less than 50 ms) and at late times (greater than l0 s) the strongest HF-induced Langmuir turbulence appears to occur in the vicinity of HF reflection. The Langmuir turbulence also gives rise to a population of accelerate electrons. Over time scales op 100's of milliseconds and longer, the microinstabilities must coexist with other instabilities that are either triggered or directly driven by the HF-induced turbulence. Some of these instabilities are believed to be explosive in character. The dissipation of the Langmuir turbulence is thought to give rise to meter-scale irregularities through several different instability routes. Finally, over time scales of tens of seconds and longer, several thermally driven instabilities can be excited which give rise to kilometer-scale ionospheric irregularities. Some of these irregularities are aligned with the geomagnetic field, while others are aligned either along the axis of the HF beam or parallel to the horizontal.

Recently, ionospheric diagnostics of HF modification have evolved to the point where individual instability processes can be examined in detail. Because of improved diagnostic capabilities, it is now clear that the wave-plasma interactions once thought to be rather simple are in fact rather complex. For example, the latest experimental findings at Arecibo Observatory suggest that plasma processes responsible for the excitation of Langmuir turbulence in the ionosphere are fundamentally different from past treatments based on so-called "weak turbulence theory".

~

continued in next, final, posting of HAARP's insanity
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 19, 2006, 11:34:47 pm
Last installment of HAARP's wet dream....

~

 This theoretical approach relies on random phase approximations to treat the amplification of linear plasma waves by parametric instabilities. Research in HF ionospheric modification during the period 1970-1986 commonly focused on parametric instabilities to explain observational results. In contrast, there is in increasing evidence that the conventional picture is wrong and that the ionospheric plasma undergoes a highly nonlinear development, culminating in the formation of localized states of strong plasma turbulence. The highly localized state (often referred to as cavitons) consists of high-frequency plasma waves trapped in self- consistent electron density depletions.

It is important to realize that many different instabilities are simultaneously excited in the plasma and that one instability process can greatly influence the development of another. Studies of competition between similar types of instability processes and the interaction between dissimilar wave-plasma interactions are in the earliest stages of development. However, it is clear that the degree to which one instability is excited in the plasma may severely impact a variety of other HF-induced processes through HF-induced pump wave absorption, changes in particle distribution functions, and the disruption op other coherently-driven processes relying on smooth ionospheric electron density gradients. Because the efficiency of many instability processes is dependent on geomagnetic dip angle, the nature of instability competition in the plasma is expected to change with geomagnetic latitude. Indeed, observational results strongly support this notion. consequently, it may be very difficult to extrapolate the observational results obtained at one geomagnetic latitude to another. Moreover, even at one experimental station, physical phenomena excited by a high-power HF wave is strongly dependent upon background ionospheric conditions. A classic illustration of this point may be found in Arecibo observations made when local electron energy dissipation rates are low. In this case, the ionospheric plasma literally overheats due to the absence of effective electron thermal loss processes.

The large (factor of four) enhancement in electron temperature that accompanies this phenomenon gives rise to a class of instability processes that is completely different from others observed under "normal" conditions where the ionospheric thermal balance is not greatly disrupted. At ERPs greater than a gigawatt (greater than 90 dBW), ponderomotive forces are no longer small compared to thermal forces. This may qualitatively change the nature of the instability processes in the ionosphere. Experimental research in this area, however, must wait until such powerful ionospheric heaters are developed.

3.3. High Latitude Ionospheric Issues

Radio wave heating of the ionosphere at mid-latitudes (e.g., Arecibo and Platteville) has occurred under conditions where the background ionosphere (prior to turning on the heater) was fairly laminar, stable, fixed, etc. However, at high latitudes (i.e., auroral latitudes such as HIPAS and Tromso) the background ionosphere is a dynamic entity. Even the location of the aurora and the electrojet are changing as a function of latitude, altitude and local time. Moreover, the background E- and F-region ionosphere may not be laminar on scale sizes less than 20 km and less than 100 km, respectively. Rather, there is the possibility of E- and F- region irregularities (with scale sizes from cms to kms) occurring at various times due to (for example) electrojet driven instabilities in the E-region, and spread F or current driven instabilities in the F-region. High energy particles, e.g., from solar flares, may also lead to D-region structuring. In addition, connection to the magnetosphere via the high conductivity along magnetic field lines can play an important role. The theoretical understanding of high latitude ionospheric heating processes has been improving; however, given the dynamic nature of the high latitude ionosphere, it is important to diagnose the background ionosphere prior to the inception of any heating experiments. This diagnostic capability aids in determining long term statistics, as well as real-time parameters. While such diagnostics have been an integral part of the heating experiments at Arecibo and Tromso, HF heating experiments at HIPAS have been severely hampered by a lack of similar diagnostics.

4. DESIRED HF HEATING FACILITY

In order to address the broad range of issues discussed in the previous sections, a new, unique, HF heating facility is required. An outline of the desired capabilities of such a heater, along with diagnostic needed for addressing these issues are given in Table 2.

(Table 2 not available in this document)

4.1. Heater Characteristics

The goals for the HF heater are very ambitious. In order to have a useful facility at various stages of its development, it is important that the heater be constructed in a modular manner, such that its effective- radiated-power can be increased in an efficient, cost effective manner as resources become available. Other desired HF heater characteristics are outlined below.

Effective-Radiated-Power (ERP)

One gigawatt of effective-radiated-power (90 dBW) represents an important threshold power level, over which significant wave generation and electron acceleration efficiencies can he achieved, and other significant heating effects can be expected. To date, the Soviet Union has built such a powerful HF heater. The highest ERPs achieved by US. facilities is about one-fourth of that. Presently, a heater in Norway, operated by the Max Planck Institute in the Federal Republic of Germany, is being reconfigured to provide 1 gigawatt of ERP at a single HF frequency. The HAARP is to ultimately have a HF heater with an ERP well above 1 gigawatt (on the order of 95-100 dBW); in short, the most powerful facility in the world for conducting ionospheric modification research. In achieving this, the heated area in the F-region should have a minimum diameter of at least 50 km, for diagnostic-measurement purposes.

4.1.2. Frequency Range of Operation

The desired heater would have a frequency range from around 1 MHz to about 15 MHz, thereby allowing a wide range of ionospheric processes to be investigated. This incorporates the electron-gyro frequency and would permit operations under all anticipated ionospheric conditions. Multi-frequency operation using different portions of the antenna array is also a desirable feature. Finally, frequency changing on an order of milliseconds is desirable over the bandwidth of the HF transmitting antenna.

4.3. Scanning Capabilities

A heater that has scanning capabilities is very desirable in order to enlarge the size of heated regions in the ionosphere. Although a scanning range from vertical to very oblique (about 10 degrees above the horizon) would be desirable, engineering considerations will most likely narrow the scanning range to about 45 degrees from the vertical. The capability of rapidly scanning (microseconds time scale) in any direction, is also very desirable.

4.1.4. Modes of Operation

Flexibility in choosing heating modes of operation, including continuous- wave (CW) and pulsed modes, will allow a wider variety of ionospheric modification techniques and issues to be addressed.

4.1.5. Wave polarization

The heater should permit both X and O polarizations to be transmitted, in order to study ionospheric processes over a range of altitudes.

4.1.6. Agility in Changing Heater Parameters

The ability to quickly change heater parameters, such as operating frequency, scan angle and direction, power levels, and modulation is important for addressing such issues as enlarging the size of the modified region in the ionosphere and the development of techniques to insure that the energy densities desired in the ionosphere can be delivered from the heater without self-limiting effects setting-in.

4.2. Heating Diagnostics

In order to understand natural ionospheric processes as well as those induced through active modification of the ionosphere, adequate instrumentation is required to measure a wide range of ionospheric parameters on the appropriate temporal and spatial scales.

4.2.1. Incoherent Scatter Radar Facility

A key diagnostic for these measurements will be an incoherent scatter radar facility to provide the means to monitor such background plasma conditions as electron densities, electron and ion temperatures, and electric fields, all as a function of altitude. In addition, the incoherent scatter radar will provide the means for closely examining the generation of plasma turbulence and the acceleration of electrons to high energies in the ionosphere by HF heating. The incoherent scatter radar facility, envisioned to complement the planned new HF heater, is currently being funded in a separate DOD program, as part of an upgrade at the Poker Flat rocket range, in Alaska.

4.2.2. Other Diagnostics

The capability of conducting in situ measurements of the heated region in the ionosphere, via rocket-borne instrumentation, is also very desirable. Other diagnostics to be employed, depending on the specific nature of the HF heating experiments, may include HF receivers for the detection of stimulated electromagnetic emissions from heater induced turbulence in the ionosphere; HF/VHF radars, to determine the amplitudes of short-scale (1-10 m) geomagnetic field-aligned irregularities; optical imagers, to determine the flux and energy spectrum of accelerated electrons and to provide a three-dimensional view of artificially produced airglow in the upper atmosphere: and, scintillation observations, to be used in assessing the impact of HF heating on satellite downlinks and in diagnosing large- scale ionospheric structures.

4.2.3. Additional Diagnostics for ELF Generation Experiments

These could include a chain of ELF receivers to record signal strengths at various distances from the heater; a digital HF ionosonde, to determine background electron density profiles in the E- and F-regions; a magnetometer chain, to observe changes in the earth's magnetic field in order to determine large volume ionospheric currents and electric fields; photometers, to aid in determining ionospheric conductivities and observing precipitating particles; a VLF sounder, to determine changes in the D-region of the ionosphere; and, a riometer, to provide additional data in these regards, especially for disturbed ionospheric conditions.

4.3. HF Heater Location

One of the major issues to be addressed under the program is the generation of ELF waves in the ionosphere by HF heating. This requires locating the heater where there are strong atmospheric currents, either at an equatorial location or at a high latitude (auroral) location. Additional factors to be considered in locating the heater include other technical (research) needs and requirements, environmental issues, future expansion capabilities (real estate), infrastructure, and considerations of the availability and location of diagnostics. The location of the new HF heating facility is planned for Alaska, relatively near to a new incoherent scatter facility, already planned for the Poker Flat rocket range under a separate DOD program. In addition, it is desirable that the HF heater be located to permit rocket probe instrumentation to be flown into the heated region of the ionosphere. The exact location in Alaska for the proposed new HF heating facility has not yet been determined.

4.4. Estimated Cost of the New HF Heating Facility

It is estimated that eight to ten million dollars ($8-10M) will provide a new HF heating facility with an effective-radiated-power of approximately that of the current DOD facility (HIPAS), but with considerable improvement in frequency tunability and antenna-beam steering capability, The new facility will be of modular design to permit efficient and cost-effective upgrades in power as additional funds become available. The desired (world-class) facility, having the broad capabilities and flexibility described above, will cost on the order of twenty-five to thirty million dollars ($25-30M).

5. PROGRAM PARTICIPANTS

The program will be jointly managed by the Navy and the Air Force. However, because of the wide variety of issues to be addressed, substantial involvement in the program by other government agencies (DARPA, DNA, NSF, etc.), universities, and private contractors is envisioned.

end
~

That link again for all who wish to permanently save the treachery of  HAARP's Executive Report:
http://www.viewzone.com/haarp.exec.html

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 19, 2006, 11:57:35 pm

Ok, as expected, more of the same completely dishonest BS, and the same tendentious strawmen.

Elias had said: "and offer clear and meaningful evidence which would support that truth well for any reasonable human being." 

Yes, that's exactly what I'm asking, and what you have completely evaded, in favor of ad hom.  I'm NOT asking for a scientific paper, and since I said that exact thing several times, you're simply lying now.  What I asked for -- and what you have evaded -- is a basic entry-level scientific defense of thethe feasibility of the underlying concept.  If you can't or won't supply that, just say so.  And if you're too scientifically and technically illiterate to evaluate your own claims, just admit that.  Never mind -- you just did.

Btw, your "barium" paste is worthless -- it's from that same quack website, and carries zero value.

Well, let's see, dgg9. Is HAARP's own document "BS"? I find it satisfactory evidence which supports every damned thing I've said on the subject on this thread. If you want to lead HAARP around the mulberry bush of distraction and distortion, I'm sure they will be as entertained by your antics as I have been. But until you prove HAARP wrong, I think you should cease worrying about my "conspiracy theories". I mean, HAARP itself is right there in front of your and everyone else's eyes verifying everything I have said on the topic here. So I am not giving you or anyone else here any "dishonest BS". In fact, as preposterous as my claims are, I've used the goddamned government's own published words to prove my case. What is hilarious is that there is so much more that I have not felt a need to post. The cat is out of the bag, so you may as well get back with your handler(s) and ask them what to try next.

You said:
Quote
What I asked for -- and what you have evaded -- is a basic entry-level scientific defense of thethe feasibility of the underlying concept.

According to the content of the previous posts I've just placed on this thread, I think I've satisfied your demands. The basic, underlying concept is that the goddamned government is conducting a massive covert operation involving the corporate sector and the U.S. military in a conspiracy to alter the earth's environment. Further, the sons of bitches are lying to we the people at the same time they're doing this to us. They have already altered our environment, tampered with the earth's fragile atmoshperic layers, rained down upon us metallic and fungal crap which has caused epidemic-level upper-respiratory illness, sinus infection, and, especially in the pre-teen young children, extensive asthma. And they deny that they're doing this to us. If you don't believe that there are physical symptoms at epidemic levels among the population, I'll turh next to Dr. Gwen Scott, ND, who is a very highly credible voice in the wilderness on that subject.  She has the data and charts to back up my claims on that. Oh - and she is not the only one who has that info. I trust that you're ready to believe me now, but if you're still being obstinate, I'll drag that ugly stuff out here for you.

For your finale you uttered this nonsense:
Quote
And if you're too scientifically and technically illiterate to evaluate your own claims, just admit that.  Never mind -- you just did.
I have never claimed to be a scientist, and I certainly am scientifically and technically illiterate - but - I've got very fine friends who are technically and scientifically literate. That, and I read a lot. :)

Now if you don't like the way I'm running this thread, and if you don't want me to expose even deeper layers of your complicity with the criminal syndicate which is currently running the U.S. Federal government, I'd suggest you withdraw from this thread and go start up one of your own. Nice chatting with you....

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: ladylearning on April 20, 2006, 12:13:10 am
...and almost anyone who's had at least one undergraduate level physics/electromagnetics course.  But then the latter tend to not be so susceptible to conspiracy theories...and that IS interesting.
Not really interesting to me. The number of degree'd individuals that entertain the likelihood of conspiricy is no more or no less than any other cross section of the populace. Many do keep quiet for obvious reasons but there are those with doctorates that do believe conspiricies are alive and well and in fact jeapordize their lives and careers by stating precisely what they do believe.  Don't waste your breath or the bandwidth asking me to provide any examples.  I will ignore you.


Quote
What do all the people/groups you list have to do with anything?  I asked the same questions that ANY first year EE student would ask.
Precisely what I said. You agree with the agencies and military branches I listed. 

Quote
Which "science" is this?  Care to cite?
The science of physics. If the same physics is applied to both normal contrails and what is referred to as aerosol/chemtrails then different results occur. Either the physics are wrong or the vapor trails are different.   

Quote
No, actually what we need now is for you to answer my post's specifics in an on point way.
Thank you for pointing out what we (?) need.  I'll point out for you that I'm a stubborn, hardheaded, and willfull lady.  I have a mind of my own and I use it.  I'm anti-social, reclusive and have very little use for most people on this earth. Especially people who steadfastly parrot the pat answers and programming of tyrants despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.  I don't choose to squander my time providing evidenciary proof of anything I say/believe.  I simply say what I think.  Those that have doubts or questions concerning governmental oppression, covert and overt operations by DOD, CIA, or any other agency or the legitimacy of our present governmental process can do their own legwork.  Critical thinking requires self validation.
A person convinced against their will is a person unconvinced still

LL
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: henshawe on April 20, 2006, 02:51:30 am
G'Day All,

No doubt dgg9 you would deny the fact that the sun raises in the east and demand that someone who asserted such a thing prove it to you. The fact is the sun does raise in the east! It is self evident.

Elias has so far set out his reasoning regarding what has been an on going series of treasones behavior including such things as black ops,  psyops and outright lies instigated by persons within the US Government as well as persons within the banking, and the mainstream media  industry in the US and the international political, banking and media conglomerates.

Since this is a theory set forth by Elias with supporting evidence with links to the relevant documents, which serve as supporting evidence, I would suggest that he has thus far made his case with clarity and for the most part, brevity.  :rolleyes:.

This being the case he has no need to respond to your demands that he go any further to prove his theory. The ball is now in your court dgg9, if you disagree, to refute his points as he has made them on a point by point basis rather than the other way around which would be redundant, would it not?  If you disagree with his conclusions you are required to offer an alternative scenario to explain what has been going on in this country for at least the last 90 some years.That being the deliberate actions of the named individuals and organizations whose sole purpose is to destroy this country and all it stands for, or more properly, stood for since its inception.

Since you feel you are so much more intelligent and  able to discern the evidence as presented is at minimum flawed and at worse false you should be able to offer as clear a rebuttal in your very own thread where you can beat your breast in support of the government as presently constituted and clarify these scenarios so we can appreciate your discernment. If you are unable to do this, you will demonstrate your fundamental refusal to understand what is being published here, which is to weave these various threads of conspiracy into whole cloth allowing a discerning individual to gain an understanding of our situation in the opening years of the 21st century which is nothing less than the loss of all we have been taught to hold dear, our country, our families, our ability to engage in productive work of our own choosing, our rights guaranteed to us by the Gods of Nature, the Bill of Rights and the united States Constitution. All of which are under constant attack and by the stated goals of these individuals and organizations will be taken from us such that we become chattel, or if you prefer, slaves.

I await your opening post in your very own thread in which you will present a cogent rebuttal, with cites, links and documentary evidence to this conspiracy theory_part two thread.

Americus


Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 05:20:49 am
The U.S. military is lying through its teeth.

They're in good company!

Quote
The barium which was discussed in the paper which I offered  in my previous post is not an indigenous element of the atmosphere,

Sorry, but this is still a bait and switch.  What HAARP is doing and what you are claiming as part of your conspiracy theory are two different things, different by astronomical orders of magnitude.  Even if we (for the sake of argument) assume the barium is being sprayed, that doesn't even begin to relate to your conspiracy theory of weather control via high power transmission.

The sanity test for that conspiracy theory is to apply a (very) little basic science: a) what energy is required for the theory to be realized, and b) is that remotely realistic.  Otherwise, there's no way to vet your conspiracy theory.  Sometimes a cigar is a cigar, and sometimes a low power weather experiment is a low power weather experiment and NOT a "climate control conspiracy."  And how do we know this?  By applying basic, common sense, undergrad-EE level science.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 05:25:10 am
Don't waste your breath or the bandwidth asking me to provide any examples.  I will ignore you.

The mantra of the thread: "Don't confuse me with facts; I've already made up my mind."  At least you're candid.

Quote
Precisely what I said. You agree with the agencies and military branches I listed.

No, because I have not read any of what they said.  I agree with my own assessment, based on elementary science.

Quote
I don't choose to squander my time providing evidenciary proof of anything I say/believe. 

Of that, I am certain.

Quote
Critical thinking requires self validation.

No.  Critical thinking requires validation of theory against the obvious contrary objections.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 05:34:01 am
Well, let's see, dgg9. Is HAARP's own document "BS"? I find it satisfactory evidence which supports every damned thing I've said on the subject on this thread.

No, that's completely false.  Your scientific illiteracy does not allow you to see the difference implied in heating a small area for experimentation vs the sustained heating an entire region (thousands of square miles) in order to change climate.  The difference is an astronomical amount of energy.  What I have continually asked -- and what you have evaded -- is for you to show what that amount of energy is, and how it would even be generated.

 
Quote
I mean, HAARP itself is right there in front of your and everyone else's eyes verifying everything I have said on the topic here.

Again, false.  HAARP is describing a low power experiment.  YOU are infering a high power scenario.  The difference is orders of magnitude.  Since you admit you have no clue what that difference is, or if it's even feasible, is there any reason to continue this debate?  You are not interested in relevant facts.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 06:58:05 am
This thread, and the various posters' recent behavior, is an excellent case study in the pathology of the conspiracy theory mindset.  You couldn't ask for a better example of the difference between the rational approach and the Conspiracy Theorist approach.

There is a project called HAARP.  It has a stated technology and an ostensible purpose.  Immediately, it is declared that the real purpose is different.  So far, so good -- skepticism is healthy.  But at this point, the paths diverge.

The very first question the sane, rational person would ask is: is the technology even capable of realizing the supposed secret purpose?  I.e., is it even ABLE to do that?  And if not, that ends the theory.

The Conspiracy Theory mindset, however, will avoid that question, because the answer might prove inconvenient to the theory.  We observe that in practice in this very thread, in the defensiveness, the evasions, the ad hom, the sheer anger that anyone dare question the conspiracy theory.  Then we see the neatly unfalsifiable circularity: those who question the theory are already bought off or in on it; YOU question the theory; hence, you're corrupted, bought off, a statist shill, etc.  Notice how this circularity avoids actually engaging the question.  Notice also the huge energy dissipated in tracking down irrelevancies, rather than the lesser energy it would take just to determine if the theory is even physically feasible.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 07:04:21 am
The Conspiracy Theory mindset in action:

Let's say I buy a small space heater.  At 1000W, its stated purpose is to heat the air of a small room.

Conspiracy Theorist: "See!  It heats air!  The Official Version is that it heats a room, but we know it's real purpose is to change the climate of the entire neighborhood."

Sane Observer: "But it's rated for 1000W, which is something like a millionth the necessary power to heat up the entire neighborhood.  It's not even remotely possible for this device to be ABLE to do what you claim."

Conspiracy Theorist: "I have never claimed to be a scientist!  Is the space heater manufacturer's own own document BS?  I find it satisfactory evidence which supports every damned thing I've said on the subject on this thread!  Further, we know the buyer's grandfather was in the same restaurant as Prescott Bush 70 years ago, which irrefutably ties him to the Illuminati, which proves..."

...and the foam-flecked ravings continue.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Leonidas the Younger on April 20, 2006, 07:20:37 am
Quote
The Conspiracy Theory mindset in action:

Let's say I buy a small space heater.  At 1000W, its stated purpose is to heat the air of a small room.

You got that money from Osama, right?

:lol:

I just tuned into this thread, and again I see poor dgg9 getting hammered by a multiple of other posters.

The problem is, folks, his methods of argumentation are, as usual, spot on.

IF SOMEONE POSTS A STATEMENT, THE BURDEN OF PROVING THAT STATEMENT IS ON THEM

This is basic debate 101 - if you can't or won't bother offering some kind of rational evidence for your statements, then don't bother making those statements in a debate context.

And for Zeus' sake, don't attack the person who is willing to stand up and call you on the fact that your evidence doesn't stand up. Alas, this happens to dgg9 on a regular basis.

One "gut level" check that is easy to do is this: "If I were on trial for my life, would I want a court of law to use the same argumentation methods that I use?"

If the answer is no ..

-- Leonidas
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 07:33:57 am
This is basic debate 101 - if you can't or won't bother offering some kind of rational evidence for your statements, then don't bother making those statements in a debate context.

It's worse than that.  I'm not even asking them to prove/disprove that the HAARP project technology would be used for other, secret purposes.  I'm perfectly willing to believe that ANY government project could/would be used for covert reasons.

All I'm asking is for them to show that it is physically possible that THIS project is even able to be used for THAT purpose.  In other words, just show me it's feasible....that it's possible.  That's all I've asked for, and -- characteristically -- it turns out they haven't even thought that to be important.  They want it to be possible, so it must be.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 07:40:43 am
Since you feel you are so much more intelligent and  able to discern the evidence as presented is at minimum flawed and at worse false

It's not a matter of intelligence.  There are plenty of smart people on this board.  It's a matter of being willing to use one's intelligence honestly, being willing to see facts that are inconvenient without Doublethink.  When someone asks the obvious questions about basic feasibility of your conspiracy theory, and you evade those questions, it calls into question your intellectual honesty, not your intellectual horsepower.

Quote
If you are unable to do this, you will demonstrate your fundamental refusal to understand what is being published here, which is to weave these various threads of conspiracy into whole cloth

Your cloth holds no interest for me.  This one thread is weak and doesn't contribute to the strength of your cloth.  Find a different thread, for a better garment.  That's the point.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: ShortyDawkins on April 20, 2006, 08:14:04 am
If the contrails described by the farmer from Montana block the sunlight by even 10%, (he claims 60%, if I'm not mistaken), then the weather has been changed. If the contrails are connected to the HAARP Project, then HAARP has altered the weather.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 08:21:44 am
If the contrails described by the farmer from Montana block the sunlight by even 10%, (he claims 60%, if I'm not mistaken), then the weather has been changed. If the contrails are connected to the HAARP Project, then HAARP has altered the weather.

The original conspiracy theory was that the metal in the air provided the electrical conductivity for high-frequency beams to heat the ionosphere.  The HAARP project is about high-frequency waves in the ionosphere.  Now you're changing the conspiracy theory to: the government will fill the air with so much barium as to substantially reduce sunlight penetration?  Which conspiracy theory are you touting?

Yet, even evaluating your new conspiracy theory, the same critical thinking rules still apply: what conditions prevail over one farmhouse are thousands and maybe millions of orders of magnitude smaller than expanding those conditions to a significantly large area, much the same way my space heater does not have it in it to raise the ambient temperature of Philadelphia.  Degree matters; indeed degree IS the argument.

Otherwise, the smoke from the local bum's garbage can bonfire can be said to have "altered the weather."
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: ShortyDawkins on April 20, 2006, 08:32:14 am
If the contrails described by the farmer from Montana block the sunlight by even 10%, (he claims 60%, if I'm not mistaken), then the weather has been changed. If the contrails are connected to the HAARP Project, then HAARP has altered the weather.

The original conspiracy theory was that the metal in the air provided the electrical conductivity for high-frequency beams to heat the ionosphere.  The HAARP project is about high-frequency waves in the ionosphere.  Now you're changing the conspiracy theory to: the government will fill the air with so much barium as to substantially reduce sunlight penetration?  Which conspiracy theory are you touting?

Yet, even evaluating your new conspiracy theory, the same critical thinking rules still apply: what conditions prevail over one farmhouse are thousands and maybe millions of orders of magnitude smaller than expanding those conditions to a significantly large area, much the same way my space heater does not have it in it to raise the ambient temperature of Philadelphia.  Degree matters; indeed degree IS the argument.

Otherwise, the smoke from the local bum's garbage can bonfire can be said to have "altered the weather."

Just pointing out that the project HAS altered weather, if only in a limited area. (And it is not just one farmhouse that seems to be affected.) It strikes me that HAARP is a testing ground to see what is possible, at present.
Are they testing to see if the high-frequency waves, in combination with the barium, increase the effect?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 08:35:49 am
Just pointing out that the project HAS altered weather, if only in a limited area.

The same way my space heater has.  Doesn't mean my space heater can heat up a city. 

The questions are: is the technology in question scalable up through the orders of magnitude?  Is it even possible?  How would it be delivered?  How would it be aimed?  How would it be controlled?  All these questions speak to the feasibility of the conspiracy theory.  Aren't you curious to answer these questions before erecting a huge emotional superstructure over this speculation?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: ShortyDawkins on April 20, 2006, 08:39:01 am
Just pointing out that the project HAS altered weather, if only in a limited area.

The same way my space heater has.  Doesn't mean my space heater can heat up a city. 

The questions are: is the technology in question scalable up through the orders of magnitude?  Is it even possible?  How would it be delivered?  How would it be aimed?  How would it be controlled?  All these questions speak to the feasibility of the conspiracy theory.  Aren't you curious to answer these questions before erecting a huge emotional superstructure over this speculation?

I ask, why is the Gov. even conducting these experiments/tests? To what end? I don't trust Gov.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 08:40:06 am
[Just pointing out that the project HAS altered weather, if only in a limited area.

Has it?  Assuming some sunlight is blocked, has that changed the weather?  E.g.: is it raining more?  Temperature changed?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 08:43:05 am
I ask, why is the Gov. even conducting these experiments/tests? To what end? I don't trust Gov.

They are admitting it's for DoD purposes.  Who knows to what end.  As I said, the handy rule of thumb when trying to narrow the field of possibilities is: it could be towards any end -- that is physically possible.  It's useful to limit the range of conspiracy theories to those that are scientifically possible.  That's been my point all along.  If you think technology A is really being developed for purpose Y, not ostensible purpose X...that's fine.  At a minimum -- at a bare minimum -- let your starting point be: is A even physically capable of Y?

Basically, there are 2 kinds of people: those who ask that question, and those who consider it irrelevant and annoying.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: ShortyDawkins on April 20, 2006, 08:44:00 am
[Just pointing out that the project HAS altered weather, if only in a limited area.

Has it?  Assuming some sunlight is blocked, has that changed the weather?  E.g.: is it raining more?  Temperature changed?

Well, less sunlight is striking the earth which may have implications to plant life. What about the normal evaporation process, has that been altered? It all depends on what you call weather changes.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Leonidas the Younger on April 20, 2006, 08:47:09 am
Quote
Well, less sunlight is striking the earth which may have implications to plant life.

Have you ever flown a kite?

-- Leonidas
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: ShortyDawkins on April 20, 2006, 08:48:02 am
I ask, why is the Gov. even conducting these experiments/tests? To what end? I don't trust Gov.

They are admitting it's for DoD purposes.  Who knows to what end.  As I said, the handy rule of thumb when trying to narrow the field of possibilities is: it could be towards any end -- that is physically possible.  It's useful to limit the range of conspiracy theories to those that are scientifically possible.  That's been my point all along.  If you think technology A is really being developed for purpose Y, not ostensible purpose X...that's fine.  At a minimum -- at a bare minimum -- let your starting point be: is A even physically capable of Y?

Basically, there are 2 kinds of people: those who ask that question, and those who consider it irrelevant and annoying.

I see HAARP as a testing ground to find out what is possible. It is a small scale experiment. What is next?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 08:48:08 am
Well, less sunlight is striking the earth which may have implications to plant life. What about the normal evaporation process, has that been altered? It all depends on what you call weather changes.

"May have."  If it does, then it'll be measurable.  And of course the original questions all still apply.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: ShortyDawkins on April 20, 2006, 08:53:19 am
Quote
Well, less sunlight is striking the earth which may have implications to plant life.

Have you ever flown a kite?

-- Leonidas

No, actually. Never did. Have you ever built a house?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Leonidas the Younger on April 20, 2006, 08:54:45 am
I've never built a house I've lived in, but I've built houses out of legos.

-- Leonidas
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: ShortyDawkins on April 20, 2006, 08:56:17 am
I've never built a house I've lived in, but I've built houses out of legos.

-- Leonidas

Too bad. It is very rewarding.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 08:58:01 am
I see HAARP as a testing ground to find out what is possible. It is a small scale experiment.

My point is that the "scale" IS the issue.  The dose is the poison.

I am perfectly willing to stipulate that you can transmit high frequency signals up to a small section of the ionosphere and change some of its properties (for as long as the wave is transmitting).  That's fine.  However, if you want to change a significant area -- an area a million times larger -- then you need a million times as much energy.  That's why I keep asking if anyone here has any idea how much energy is required, and if that's even remotely feasible.  But no one is curious.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: ShortyDawkins on April 20, 2006, 09:03:15 am
I see HAARP as a testing ground to find out what is possible. It is a small scale experiment.

My point is that the "scale" IS the issue.  The dose is the poison.

I am perfectly willing to stipulate that you can transmit high frequency signals up to a small section of the ionosphere and change some of its properties (for as long as the wave is transmitting).  That's fine.  However, if you want to change a significant area -- an area a million times larger -- then you need a million times as much energy.  That's why I keep asking if anyone here has any idea how much energy is required, and if that's even remotely feasible.  But no one is curious.

I live near the seacoast of NH. We know, in our area, how little it takes, degree wise, to alter precipitation. It may be snowing ten miles inland, while it is pouring rain on the coast. Degree difference can be as little as one degree, sometimes.
My point is that altering weather doesn't take vast amounts of change.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Leonidas the Younger on April 20, 2006, 09:07:50 am
Quote
My point is that altering weather doesn't take vast amounts of change.

To raise the ambient tempurature of the air over, say, a small town, takes a hell of a walloping amount of energy as compared to warming a house.

Instead of heating ten thousand cubic feet, one would have to heat ten or twenty cubic MILES of air ..

So your "one degree of difference" is actually a VERY large amount of energy.

-- Leonidas
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 09:08:46 am
I live near the seacoast of NH. We know, in our area, how little it takes, degree wise, to alter precipitation. It may be snowing ten miles inland, while it is pouring rain on the coast. Degree difference can be as little as one degree, sometimes.
My point is that altering weather doesn't take vast amounts of change.

Differences in climate between the coast and inland are more than just a matter of one or two degrees.

This is not a VERBAL issue; it's a TECHNICAL issue.  Analogies don't answer the question.  Only numbers answer the question.  How much energy/barium/whatever is required to significantly change climate over a significantly large area.  Decide how many degrees you want to change the ambient average temp, and over how many square miles of territory, then figure out how much energy/barium is required.  Then decide if it's possible.

There's no way around this.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: ShortyDawkins on April 20, 2006, 09:12:00 am
Quote
My point is that altering weather doesn't take vast amounts of change.

To raise the ambient tempurature of the air over, say, a small town, takes a hell of a walloping amount of energy as compared to warming a house.

Instead of heating ten thousand cubic feet, one would have to heat ten or twenty cubic MILES of air ..

So your "one degree of difference" is actually a VERY large amount of energy.

-- Leonidas

You only have to heat that portion of the atmosphere where the clouds are, not the entire atmosphere. We often have snowstorms in NH, where the upper level temperatures are colder than ground temperatures, so even though it is 35 degrees at the surface, we can have heavy snow.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 09:15:15 am
You only have to heat that portion of the atmosphere where the clouds are, not the entire atmosphere.

Yes, we're talking about the upper atmoshpere, which is still many miles thick.

This is a numerical issue, not a verbal one.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: farwest on April 20, 2006, 10:09:23 am
I think the level of proof dgg9 is asking for is not the simple matter he is trying to present it as. There are different ways of heating the armosphere and different levels of energy that would be required. A sobering look at the true difficulty of accurate estimates can be found in the recent book on Heisenburg and the German attempt to develop the atomic bomb in WW2. Heisenburg gave the Naziis a high (but not improbable) estimate for how much purified uranium would be required. The author argues, and I agree, that in fact Heisenburg knew it could be done with an amount at least a factor of magnitude smaller but he didn't want anyone deveoping the bomb and tried to forestall its development. Even though Nazi Germany still had a number of world class physicists no one could present a provable alternate estimate. The bomb got developed in the US and did not get developed in Germany because allied scientists were determined to work through the difficulties and did; the German effort was let slide because the authorities let Heisenburg's estimate deter them. The point is that an estimate won't prove or disprove HAARP's capabilities; if they are determined enough and throw enough resources at the problem they will probably get in the ballpark. I think the better question to ask is exactly what drives the current powers that be and where do you think they would stop, both as regards people and the environment. I think Elias is pretty much on the mark myself. I worked in science for twenty yeqrs and first took college physics with guys who had their whole career working for the defense department mapped out while they were still in first year physics. I think most of them would research anything they got paid to research and wouldn't worry about the consequences. There were exceptions but they were few and far between.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: ShortyDawkins on April 20, 2006, 10:14:15 am
You only have to heat that portion of the atmosphere where the clouds are, not the entire atmosphere.

Yes, we're talking about the upper atmoshpere, which is still many miles thick.

This is a numerical issue, not a verbal one.

Yes, it is numerical. My whole point is that it depends on what the goal is. Is it massive weather changes you are after, or minor changes. Increasing rainfall, perhaps. Or, raising temps enough to support the global warming theory, at least in part. What is the goal? Use weather as a weapon? How? And who else will be affected by changing weather patterns? Will a small change in one region really end up changing larger area patterns? Gov could be screwing things up over wider than intended areas. What gives them the right?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 10:29:11 am
I think the level of proof dgg9 is asking for is not the simple matter he is trying to present it as. There are different ways of heating the armosphere and different levels of energy that would be required.

Heck, assume perfect efficiency.

What I'm looking for is evidence that someone, anyone has actually even thought about the basic, underlying feasibility before jumping on board with this latest theory.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 10:31:51 am
Yes, it is numerical. My whole point is that it depends on what the goal is. Is it massive weather changes you are after, or minor changes. Increasing rainfall, perhaps. Or, raising temps enough to support the global warming theory, at least in part. What is the goal? Use weather as a weapon? How?

If you don't know the scenario, it's hard to formulate a theory.

If "weather change" is the theory, then pick a scenario, any scenario, and see if it's feasible.  Why is this considered an unreasonable request?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: ShortyDawkins on April 20, 2006, 10:33:44 am
Yes, it is numerical. My whole point is that it depends on what the goal is. Is it massive weather changes you are after, or minor changes. Increasing rainfall, perhaps. Or, raising temps enough to support the global warming theory, at least in part. What is the goal? Use weather as a weapon? How?

If you don't know the scenario, it's hard to formulate a theory.

If "weather change" is the theory, then pick a scenario, any scenario, and see if it's feasible.  Why is this considered an unreasonable request?

If it is NOT theoretically possible, then why does HAARP exist at all?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 10:34:19 am
A sobering look at the true difficulty of accurate estimates can be found in the recent book on Heisenburg and the German attempt to develop the atomic bomb in WW2. Heisenburg gave the Naziis a high (but not improbable) estimate for how much purified uranium would be required.

Non sequitur.  Atomic energy was a new science altogether.  The formulas and equations were being discovered.

Raising the temperature of a gas is the most basic Newtonian query.  It's really simple: if you want to raise the temperature by X, you need to supply energy.  HOW MUCH?  Is it feasible?  Why not answer the questions?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 10:36:33 am
If it is NOT theoretically possible, then why does HAARP exist at all?

Gee, maybe they exist to pursue their stated purpose, NOT the conspiracy theory purpose.  Covertly, they can pursue those scenarios that are within the realm of physical possibility.  My question, as yet unanswered, is: are the various conspiracy theory scenarios being touted here within the realm of physical possibility?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: farwest on April 20, 2006, 11:38:26 am
As if all we have to do is answer how much volume of gas of what composition is being heated. If it was that simple the science of atmospheric physics would be done because all the questions would have been answered. In fact any estimate would also involve the transfer of energy in a constantly changing atmosphere that is undergoing various changes of state of those gases at all times and is also receiving a variety of energy imputs on a constant basis. I only took two classes in Atmospheric Sciences but that was enough for me to know that this is not a simple problem. And I think the comparision with atmic physics in WW2 is apt because in fact the science of the physics of the atmosphere is just developing and until the advent of super computers there were a number of applicable mathematical approaches that could not be used due to the complexity and volume of the computations required. When Einstein first developed the Special Theory of Relativity one of the common sense objections by classically trained physicists concerned the amount of enery released in the e=mc2 equation- Einstein seemed to be saying that there was more energy in a lump of coal than in the whole Prussian army and no one ever saw any release of energy on anything like that scale. When the atomic structure was better understood then people understood how that energy was bound up and under what conditions it could be released. Jung once said that the saying Where there's a will there's a way was the most dangerous idea going and that's what I think the point is here. If someone with the financial resources is willing to do the research they will be able to come up with ways to alter the atmosphere and the weather. On a minor level this has already been done. The simple calculation asked for (that ignores about 99% of the actual physical parameters) is useless and proves nothing to the point.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 11:41:52 am
As if all we have to do is answer how much volume of gas of what composition is being heated. If it was that simple the science of atmospheric physics would be done because all the questions would have been answered.

Non sequitur.  The stated conspiracy theory WAS that high frequency beams would heat up the upper atmosphere.  So -- taking the theory on its own stated terms -- I asked for the most basic smoke test.

Quote
In fact any estimate would also involve the transfer of energy in a constantly changing atmosphere that is undergoing various changes of state of those gases at all times and is also receiving a variety of energy imputs on a constant basis.

That's why I said to do the easiest-case scenario: perfect efficiency.  Assume best/easiest case, and just come up with a number.  Express the number in Watts.  That alone give you the basic feasibility.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 20, 2006, 11:43:00 am
Well, let's see, dgg9. Is HAARP's own document "BS"? I find it satisfactory evidence which supports every damned thing I've said on the subject on this thread.

No, that's completely false.  Your scientific illiteracy does not allow you to see the difference implied in heating a small area for experimentation vs the sustained heating an entire region (thousands of square miles) in order to change climate.  The difference is an astronomical amount of energy.  What I have continually asked -- and what you have evaded -- is for you to show what that amount of energy is, and how it would even be generated.

 
Quote
I mean, HAARP itself is right there in front of your and everyone else's eyes verifying everything I have said on the topic here.

Again, false.  HAARP is describing a low power experiment.  YOU are infering a high power scenario.  The difference is orders of magnitude.  Since you admit you have no clue what that difference is, or if it's even feasible, is there any reason to continue this debate?  You are not interested in relevant facts.

dgg9, your particular brand of bait-and-switch  is simply not going to work with me. You do not make my statements for me because I do not authorize you to make my statements. I've told you before and I'll remind you again - you either address my statements as I made them in writing, or I'm going to have to ignore you. I am not about to make a statement, then watch you come in and twist what I said into something with which you can run off in unrelated tangents. Your antics on this thread speak for themselves. I have not said one damned thing which you've tried to prove or disprove - and I will not honor your abusiveness.

To the rest of you guys - dgg9 has used, once again, an old trick of re-painting a character after the artist created it - and then arguing for his right to repaint someone else's creation. I'm simply not going to honor that sort of abuse of my statements. The man cannot win in an argument with me by attacking what I've said, so he perverts and distorts my statements and my meanings and acts like he's proving me wrong. Any of y'all who argue with him on this topic here are merely satisfying his wishes to destroy the truth of what I've presented so far.

HAARP exists. The U.S. military is involved in HAARP. The spraying operations over our heads have altered our atmosphere and our environment. The government admits that HAARP exists. The government admits that the military is involved. But the government which admits both of those realities steadfastly refuses to admit that U.S. military is spraying materials into our atmosphere, and when the government is queried about this by concerned citizens, the government flat-out lies about it by denying that the planes are spraying anything. The government has been caught in that lie, and dgg9 is here to distract this thread from further exposure. To distract the thread he has taken one fraction of one of my statements, twisted it, altered its intended meaning, and launched a thread-burying avalanche of inane and pointless arguments based on something I did not state - the HAARP facility is somehow going to heat-up the atmosphere. I did not say that - the Russians said it in that article from Pravda which I posted to start this topic on the thread. dgg9 has sold some of you on the idea that I said it and that I must prove it. He has built his whole argument on something I did not even say. Worse, when I furnished to this thread HAARP's own document which plain-as-day says that HAARP is interested in altering our atmosphere at will, heating it up or cooling it down, this antagonist, dgg9, has completely refused to absorb HAARP's statement and has continued to deface this thread with pages of non-related arguments based on his distortions of my statements.

I woke up this morning to find that more than two pages have been added to this thread by dgg9 and people who think dgg9 deserves to be answered. I disagree - dgg9 does not deserve to be answered unless dgg9 is addressing something I have said. dgg9 is not addressing what I've said. Instead dgg9 is addressing something he interjected into my statements. If y'all want to run with that sort of thing, then have at it - but - until you figure out that dgg9's purpose here is to destroy the presentation of truth, all your replies to his illigimate posts simply cloud up the thread's intent and purpose. He needs someone, anyone, the more the merrier, to argue with him. He does not care one whit about the truth. His purpose is to obfuscate the truth. He is real good at that, which is why I suggest everyone here seriously question his motive. He does not deserve an answer until he addresses my point as I made that point. By evoking everyone's angst, he draws everyone into the fray, and that is what he's wanting to do. He knows damn well that what I'm putting on this thread is extremely damaging to the government which is destroying your air, your atmosphere, your lives - and yet he must help cover that up. He covers it up by distorting my message here. His posts on this thread show clearly that his position is that the HAARP/military/chemtrail covert operations are not a problem. But in fact, those covert operations are a problem, and they are destroying our atmosphere - and in case this doesn't mean anything to some readers here, that atmosphere affects directly your ability to breathe and live.

In dgg9's first post on this thread he argued something which I did not say. He took it from there, ran with that false-start error as if it were pertinent, and has completely distracted the focus of the thread. I enjoyed exposing him and shutting down his tactic by bringing to the thread one sample (a scientific  paper on the abnormal presence in our atmoshpere of particles of barium). Suddenly "barium" became dgg9's issue and the source of that study became a "quack". dgg9 doesn't want me to mention that there is also aluminum, and other metals, in those sprays. he does not want me to mention that there are also "fibers" in those sprays. He does not want me to talk about the fungi which is also in some of those sprays. I have posted the government's letters of response to a concerned citizen and have shown that the government is lying.  I have brought HAARP's own statements here, which support every damned thing I've said on this thread regarding HAARP and covert spraying operations, and yet dgg9 steadfastly employs any and every available tactic of diversion and distraction to keep that information from being absorbed for what it is, and for what it means. I am wondering - is there any reader on this thread who has not yet got the picture? Do any of you think this man is honest, honorable, and has the best interest of America at heart? Am I the only one who knows that dgg9 is being paid to do what he is attempting to do here? Is there anyone here who is yet unaware that we are in a mental war for our very lives, our freedoms, our rights as human beings, and that the rogue criminal element which presently has control over the Federal government literally pays people like dgg9 to disrupt the unfolding of the truth of their conspiracy? Is your world running smoothly, peacefully, comfortably, with lots of freedom and no tyranny? Or is your world over-burdened by government presence on every turn? Giving dgg9 the time of day supports that tyranny which, I thought, everyone here resents.

Salute!
Elias

Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 11:44:50 am
The simple calculation asked for (that ignores about 99% of the actual physical parameters) is useless and proves nothing to the point.

Completely false.  If the best case scenario is impossible, you don't need to follow up on the more difficult, real cases of lower efficiency.

This is done in engineering all the time.  You make every assumption go your way.  If you still can't do it, no need to refine.

So, if all you had to do was warm up the volume of gas -- and you can't do that -- the conspiracy theory ends right there.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 20, 2006, 11:46:38 am
As if all we have to do is answer how much volume of gas of what composition is being heated. If it was that simple the science of atmospheric physics would be done because all the questions would have been answered. In fact any estimate would also involve the transfer of energy in a constantly changing atmosphere that is undergoing various changes of state of those gases at all times and is also receiving a variety of energy imputs on a constant basis. I only took two classes in Atmospheric Sciences but that was enough for me to know that this is not a simple problem. And I think the comparision with atmic physics in WW2 is apt because in fact the science of the physics of the atmosphere is just developing and until the advent of super computers there were a number of applicable mathematical approaches that could not be used due to the complexity and volume of the computations required. When Einstein first developed the Special Theory of Relativity one of the common sense objections by classically trained physicists concerned the amount of enery released in the e=mc2 equation- Einstein seemed to be saying that there was more energy in a lump of coal than in the whole Prussian army and no one ever saw any release of energy on anything like that scale. When the atomic structure was better understood then people understood how that energy was bound up and under what conditions it could be released. Jung once said that the saying Where there's a will there's a way was the most dangerous idea going and that's what I think the point is here. If someone with the financial resources is willing to do the research they will be able to come up with ways to alter the atmosphere and the weather. On a minor level this has already been done. The simple calculation asked for (that ignores about 99% of the actual physical parameters) is useless and proves nothing to the point.

Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to see your intelligent posts.

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 11:48:13 am
I think it is real. But - if it is real, what on earth does it do? To look into high-frequency active auroral research, I turned to the Air Force 2025 study, among other sources, where I found that certain commands in the U.S. military are keenly interested in learning all about weather control, just as the Russians feared. The U.S. military is also interested in discovering usages for certain layers of the atmosphere for various military and security purposes. They are investigating the ionosphere, among other “spheres”.

When we speak of controlling the weather, we may be messing around pretty close to certain lines laid down by Mother Nature.

Sigh.  How, exactly would such a device "heat up the environment?"

By packing the atmosphere with staggering amounts, actually many many tons,  of microscopic metals. Barium and aluminum are included in the aerosol sprays which the US Military has been distributing into our atmosphere with what we have in the past referred to as chemtrails. Large tonnages of microscopic metallic salts have been inserted via the spraying operations into our air, where those metals are suspended in air, and where they serve as a metallic conductor for the waves of pulses which the HAARP facility initiates. The metallic content of the sprays being discharged into our atmosphere by US government aircraft daily constitutes a very fine conductive network which may be used to shift energies from one geographical location to another.  By sending ELF pulses into the plasma which the spraying operations have created in our air, the facility at HAARP can literally "heat up the environment". 

Quoted without comment.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 11:53:52 am
dgg9's purpose here is to destroy the presentation of truth,

LOL!  You really need to get over yourself.

YOUR purpose on this thread is to bloviate and harangue endlessly about fatuous conspiracy theories, yet you get wildly upset when an element of them is questioned.

MY purpose in this thread was to ask a specific question about a specific point.  Rather typically, you blew smoke for hours rather than simply answer the question.  The best answer I could get out of you was that "I'm no scientist," which effectively concedes that you can't evaluate the veracity of your own conspiracy theory.  The rest is commentary.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: farwest on April 20, 2006, 11:58:25 am
Totally wrong. The gas theory assumes a given volume of gas at a given temperature. Because the atmosphere is a far more complex system not only is it not all at the same temperature the changes in temperature are constant and very complex. Assuming an averaged temperature would take you so far from the actual situation that your estimate would be useless. If you think the government is doing the research this way you are mistaken. Supercomputers with very complex programs are used to input the data from all over the world and produce both current weather maps and projected future maps. If you have access to a big university you might be able to see them- they're quite impressive. This is the sort of system HAARP researchers would have to be using and I'm sure they are. But I'm equally sure that the public will only know what the government wants to release in most cases. I just read a book on the discovery of change of latitude and while the military was developing GPS systems for military use for a long time they were actually quite unhappy when civilian astronomers developing VLB co-ordinates basically forced their hand so they had to allow commercial use of GPS. If it was up to the military and the government no one would have GPS toys but them. So I do think people should be skeptical of conspiracy theories but certainly also skeptical of government and realistic about what can be done (and the motives of those who would do it) if there is money and time to go after a problem.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 11:59:51 am
Therefore, we must not limit ourselves to just the temperature-altering possibilities posed by the presence of inserted metallic materials in our atmosphere. We can say, as I'm sure you'll agree, that one of the possibilities embodied by the presence of the inserted metallic materials into our atmosphere is an ability to “heat up the atmosphere”.

Quoted without comment.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 20, 2006, 12:01:40 pm
dgg9's purpose here is to destroy the presentation of truth,

LOL!  You really need to get over yourself.

YOUR purpose on this thread is to bloviate and harangue endlessly about fatuous conspiracy theories, yet you get wildly upset when an element of them is questioned.

MY purpose in this thread was to ask a specific question about a specific point.  Rather typically, you blew smoke for hours rather than simply answer the question.  The best answer I could get out of you was that "I'm no scientist," which effectively concedes that you can't evaluate the veracity of your own conspiracy theory.  The rest is commentary.

From the HAARP Executive Summary, as I posted it back on page eight:

~

Desired HF Heater Characteristics

A new, unique, HF heating facility is required to address the broad range of issues identified above. However, in order to have a useful facility at various stages of its development, it is important that the heater be constructed in a modular manner, such that its effective-radiated-power can be increased in an efficient, cost effective manner as resources become available.

Effective-Radiated-Powers (ERP) in Excess of 1 Gigawatt

One gigawatt of effective-radiated-power represents an important threshold power level, over which significant wave generation and electron acceleration efficiencies can be achieved, and other significant heating effects can be expected.

Broad HF Frequency Range

The desired heater would have a frequency range from around 1 MHz to about 15 MHz, thereby allowing a wide range of ionospheric processes to be investigated.

Scanning Capabilities

A heater that has rapid scanning capabilities is very desirable to enlarge the size of heated regions in the ionosphere Continuous Wave (CW) and Pulse Modes of Operation. Flexibility in choosing heating modes of operation will allow a wider variety of ionospheric enhancement techniques and issues to be addressed

~

I do not know who you think you're fooling, but your lies and distortions don't float with me.

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 12:02:29 pm
Totally wrong. The gas theory assumes a given volume of gas at a given temperature. Because the atmosphere is a far more complex system not only is it not all at the same temperature the changes in temperature are constant and very complex.

Sorry, all this is evasion.  If you want to raise some amount of gas some amount, you need some energy.  No amount of equivocation will change that fact.

If you want to raise temperature of hundreds of cubic miles of atmosphere, you need a minimum amount of energy.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Harleqwin on April 20, 2006, 12:03:52 pm

Non sequitur.  The stated conspiracy theory WAS that high frequency beams would heat up the upper atmosphere.  So -- taking the theory on its own stated terms -- I asked for the most basic smoke test.

You definitely slipped up here;  HAARP (not the "stated conspiracy theory") states that they can heat the Ionosphere.

from page 8 of this thread:

"Executive Summary

..... The heart of the program will be the development of a unique high frequency (HF) ionospheric heating capability to conduct the pioneering experiments required under the program."

and to your power question:

"Effective-Radiated-Power (ERP)

One gigawatt of effective-radiated-power (90 dBW) represents an important threshold power level, over which significant wave generation and electron acceleration efficiencies can he achieved, and other significant heating effects can be expected. To date, the Soviet Union has built such a powerful HF heater. "


Go argue if it is possible with HAARP, not Elias.
Dgg9 you are wrong.  Stop.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 12:05:12 pm
From the HAARP Executive Summary, as I posted it back on page eight:

Yes, I read that.  The difference you keep eliding is the difference between heating small areas to send communications and heating vast areas to change climate.  You get that, right?  HAARP is talking about the former.  To the degree your statements were coherent, you were talking about the latter.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 12:08:07 pm
You definitely slipped up here;  HAARP (not the "stated conspiracy theory") states that they can heat the Ionosphere.

SMALL PIECES of the Ionosphere, much as my space heater heats up SMALL PIECES of the lower atmosphere.  No one denies that the basic technology will raise the temperature of the air it is directed at.  No one.  The issue is if it is physically possible to raise the temperature of sufficient cubic miles of the ionosphere, so as to change climate in an area.  The issue is therefore DEGREE.

This must be the dozenth time I've repeated just that.

EDITED TO ADD: let's put this nonsense to bed.

http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/haarp/tech.html

"During active ionospheric research, the signal generated by the transmitter system is delivered to the antenna array, transmitted in an upward direction, and is partially absorbed, at an altitude between 100 to 350 km (depending on operating frequency), in a small volume a few hundred meters thick and a few tens of kilometers in diameter over the site. The intensity of the HF signal in the ionosphere is less than 3 microwatts per cm2, tens of thousands of times less than the Sun's natural electromagnetic radiation reaching the earth and hundreds of times less than even the normal random variations in intensity of the Sun's natural ultraviolet (UV) energy which creates the ionosphere. The small effects that are produced, however, can be observed with the sensitive scientific instruments installed at the HAARP facility and these observations can provide new information about the dynamics of plasmas and new insight into the processes of solar-terrestrial interactions."


Thus: a small area, and a tiny amount of power.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: farwest on April 20, 2006, 12:11:37 pm
If dgg9 doesn't realize that the temperature of the atmosphere IS a measure of its energy I don't know why he is posting this stuff. A atmosphere made up of an extremely large number of atoms, with an extremely complex distribution of energy stateS(which is what the complex distribution of temperatures IS), cannot be accurately estimated by a simple algebraic equation. If only!
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 20, 2006, 12:11:56 pm
dgg9 is not alone in wanting to suppress this information. Below is a listing of "visitors" who have been monitoring the unfolding science at carnicom dot com, which is a major thorn in Fedgov's side. Let us ask ourselves one simple quesion: Why would this list of interested parties be hovering all over the carnicom site if carnicom is a "quack"? Why would these visitors to carnicom dot com care what a "quack" is saying?

VISITORS TO WWW.CARNICOM.COM
Let it be noted that some of the recent visitors to this web site include:
(Let it also be noted that United States government computer systems are to be used for official purposes only.)

    1. Desert Research Institute in Nevada (weather modification research institution) (repeat visits)
    2. Fort Lewis Army Military Base in the state of Washington (home of special forces air squadron)
    3. Lockheed Martin (aviation and space defense contractor) (repeat visits)(repeat repeat visits)
    4. Los Alamos National Laboratory (repeat visit)
    5. Allergan Pharmaceutical Corporation (Allergy Pharmaceutical Research Company)
    6. Alliant Techsystems (Space and Strategic Defense Systems contractor)
    7. Raytheon Defense Systems (Defense Contractor) (repeat visit)(repeat repeat visit)(repeat repeat repeat visit)
    8. BOEING AIRCRAFT COMPANY (100 visits minimum)
    9. United States Defense Logistics Agency (supplies and support to combat troops)
    10. Davis-Monthan Air Force Base, Tuscon AZ (home of 355th Wing)(repeat visits)(repeat repeat visits)(repeat repeat repeat visit)
    11. Dept of Defense Naval Computer and Telecommunications Area Master Station
    12. U.S. Naval Sea Systems Command
    13. Western Pacific Region of the Federal Aviation Administration, Lawndale CA. (repeat visit)(repeat visit) (repeat visit)
    14. National Aeronautics and Space Administration Langley Research Center (10 visits minimum)
    15. United States Environmental Protection Agency (20 visits minimum)
    16. St. Vincent Hospital, Santa Fe New Mexico
    17. HEADQUARTERS UNITED STATES AIR FORCE, THE PENTAGON
    18. United States Department of the Treasury (repeat visit)(repeat visit)
    19. United States Department of Defense Educational Activity
    20. ANDREWS AIR FORCE BASE, PROUD HOME OF AIR FORCE ONE
    21. United States Federal Aviation Administration
    22. United States Naval Research Center, Washington D.C.
    23. Rockwell-Collins (U.S. defense contractor)
    24. Honeywell (U.S. Defense Contractor)(repeat visit)
    25. Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Dayton OH (repeat visit)(repeat repeat visit)
    26. Kadena Air Force Base, Okinawa, Japan
    27. Camp Pendleton, United States Marine Corps (mandatory US Defense anthrax vaccination program described at www.cpp.usmc.mil)(repeat visit)(repeat visit)
    28. Ames Research Center, NASA (one of primary missions is to research ASTROBIOLOGY, i.e., the study of life in outer space) (repeat visit)
    29. Space Dynamics Laboratory, Utah State University, North Logan, Utah
    30. Merck (Pharmaceutical Products and Health Research)(repeat visit)
    31. McClellan Air Force Base, Sacramento, CA. (The Sacramento Air Logistics Center at McClellan Air Force Base, California performs depot maintenance on the KC-135 Stratotanker aircraft and is heavily involved in space and communications-electronics.)(repeat visit)
    32. TRW (U.S. Defense Contractor) (repeat visit)
    33. Teledyne Brown Engineering (U.S. Defense Contractor)
    34. United States Navy Medical Department
    35. Air National Guard, Salt Lake City, Utah
    36. Monsanto Company(Chemical, Pesticide, and Pharmaceutical products) (repeat visit)(repeat repeat visits)
    37. U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs
    38. Arco Chemical Corporation
    39. Sundstrand Aerospace (U.S. Defense Contractor)
    40. National Oceanic and Atmospherics Administration Aeronomy Laboratory (conducts fundamental research on the chemical and physical processes of the Earth's atmosphere)
    41. Allied Signal Corporation(chemical, aerospace, energy ) (repeat visit)(repeat repeat visit)(repeat repeat repeat visit)(repeat repeat repeat repeat visit)
    42. Aviation Weather Center, National Oceanic and Atmospherics Administration
    43. United States Army Medical Department(repeat visit)
    44. Nasa Goddard Space Flight Center
    45. Applied Physics Laboratory, a research division of John Hopkins University, which supports the U.S. Defense Department
    46. United States Naval Health Research Center, San Diego, CA
    47. HEADQUARTERS, UNITED STATES ARMY, THE PENTAGON
    48. United States General Accounting Office(The General Accounting Office is the investigative arm of Congress. GAO performs audits and evaluations of Government programs and activities.)
    49. Bristol-Myers Squibb Company(Pharmaceutical Research and Development)
    50. United States Naval Criminal Investigative Service(A worldwide organization responsible for conducting criminal investigations and counterintelligence for the Department of the Navy and for managing naval security programs. )
    51. National Computer Security Center (NCSE) (Involved in advanced warfare simulation)
    52. The Mayo Clinic(repeat visit) (repeat repeat visit) (repeat repeat repeat visit)
    53. The Federal Judiciary(home of the United States Supreme Court)
    54. United States Federal Emergency Management Agency(Controls a comprehensive, risk-based, emergency management program of mitigation, preparedness, response and recovery.)(repeat visit)
    55. United States Naval Surface Warfare Center, Crane IN(repeat visit)(repeat repeat visit)
    56. United States National Guard Public Affairs Web Access(no public access to this site)
    57. UNITED STATES SENATE (repeat visit) (repeat repeat visit)(repeat repeat repeat visit)(repeat repeat repeat repeat visit)
    58. Headquarters, United States Air Force Reserve Command
    59. Kaiser Permanente health organization
    60. United States Naval Warfare Assessment Station
    61. Air University, United States Air Force
    62. United States Naval Research Laboratory(repeat visit)
    63. Enterprise Products Partners L.P.(MTBE production)
    64. United States Navy Naval Air Weapons Stations, China Lake CA
    65. California Pacific Medical Center
    66. United States Defense Information Systems Agency (mission: "To plan, engineer, develop, test, manage programs, acquire, implement, operate, and maintain information systems for C4I and mission support under all conditions of peace and war." )
    67. Harvard Pilgrim Health Care, New England
    68. San Francisco Department of Public Health
    69. BJC Health System, St. Louis, Missouri
    70. United States Open Source Information Systems(OSIS)(an unclassified confederation of systems serving the intelligence community with open source intelligence) OSIS sites include: (AIA) Air Intelligence Agency, Kelly AFB, San Antonio, TX IC-ROSE (CIA) Central Intelligence Agency, Reston, VA (DIA) Defense Intelligence Agency, Washington, D.C. (NSA) National Security Agency, Ft. Meade, Laurel, MD (NIMA) National Imagery & Mapping AgencyFairfax, VA (NAIC) National Air Intelligence Center, Wright-Patterson AFB, Dayton, OH (NGIC) National Ground Intelligence Center, Charlottesville, VA (MCIC) Marine Corps Intelligence Center, Quantico, VA (NMIC) National Maritime Intelligence Center, Office of Naval Intelligence, Suitland, MD (ISMC) Intelink Service Management Center, Ft. Meade, Laurel, MD (repeat visit)
    71. New Mexico Department of Health
    72. United States Space and Naval Warfare Systems Command (SPAWAR)
    73. United States McMurdo Research Station, Antartica
    74. Orlando Regional Healthcare System, Florida
    75. United States Andersen Air Force Base, Guam
    76. United States Misawa Air Base, Japan
    77. United States Hickam Air Force Base, Hawaii
    78. United States Osan Air Force Base, Korea
    79. Royal Air Force, Lakenheath, Suffolk
    80. United States Scott Air Force Base
    81. United States F.E. Warren Air Force Base
    82. United States Air Force News Agency
    83. United States Langley Air Force Base (repeat visit)
    84. United States Tinker Air Force Base
    85. United States McConnell Air Force Base
    86. United States Charleston Air Force Base
    87. United States Randolph Air Force Base
    88. United States Air Force Reserve Command
    89. United States Seymour Johnson Air Force Base
    90. United States Bolling Air Force Base, Washington DC
    91. Keesler Air Force Base, MS
    91. United States Hill Air Force Base
    92. United States Vandenberg Air Force Base, California
    93. United States Minot Air Force Base, North Dakota
    94. United States Eielson Air Force Base, Alaska
    95. ANDREWS AIR FORCE BASE, PROUD HOME OF AIR FORCE ONE(repeat visit)
    96. HEADQUARTERS UNITED STATES AIR FORCE, THE PENTAGON(repeat visit)
    (Visitors 75-96 arrived within a 24 hour period 092399)
    97. United StatesCannon Air Force Base, New Mexico
    98. United States McQuire Air Force Base
    99. United States Beale Air Force Base (home of the U-2 fleet of reconnaisance aircraft)
    100. United States Department of Justice - Federal Bureau of Prisons
    101. Metnet - United States Navy (associated with weather reporting system and SPAWAR)
    102. TRADOC - United States Army Training and Doctrine Command, Fort Monroe, VA
    103. Newsweek Magazine
    104. United States Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency
    105. Massachusetts Medical Society, Owner - Publisher : New England Journal of Medicine
    106. OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE : THE OFFICE OF WILLIAM S. COHEN, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE (repeat visit)
    107. HEADQUARTERS UNITED STATES AIR FORCE, THE PENTAGON(repeat repeat visit)
    108. UNITED STATES JOINT FORCES COMMAND (reports to US Secretary of Defense)(repeat visit)
    109. Naval Warfare Assessment Station, Corona CA
    110. Los Angeles County Emergency Operations Center
    111. Commander in Chief, United States Pacific Fleet, United States Navy
    112. HEADQUARTERS UNITED STATES AIR FORCE, THE PENTAGON
    113. Defense Logistics Agency, Administrative Support Center in Europe
    114. United Stated Department of Defense Network Information Center, Vienna, VA(repeat visits)
    115. Office of the Assistant Secretary of the Army
    116. Headquarters, United States Air Force, The Pentagon (repeat visit)
    117. U.S. News and World Report
    118. Naval Air Warfare Center - Aircraft Division (repeat visits)
    119. New Zealand Parliament
    120. HEADQUARTERS UNITED STATES AIR FORCE, THE PENTAGON(multiple repeat visits)
    121. NIPR - Department of Defense Network Operations (NIPRNet); The Defense Information Systems Agency (DISA) has established a number of NIPRNet gateways to the Internet,
    which will be protected and controlled by firewalls and other technologies.)(repeat visits)
    122. Peterson Air Force Base, Colorado Springs, CO (home of NORAD and SPACECOM)
    123. Raytheon (visits immediately after introduction of HAARP implications)
    124. United States Army War College
    125. Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
    126. Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory

~

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 12:15:07 pm
If dgg9 doesn't realize that the temperature of the atmosphere IS a measure of its energy I don't know why he is posting this stuff.

If farwest doesn't realize that CHANGING the temperature IS a measure of energy, I don't know why he is posting this stuff.

You can handwave all you want, but increasing the temperature of a volume of gas requires addition of energy.  You do realize that?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 20, 2006, 12:19:49 pm
dgg9's purpose here is to destroy the presentation of truth,


YOUR purpose on this thread is to bloviate and harangue endlessly about fatuous conspiracy theories, yet you get wildly upset when an element of them is questioned.



I started the thread, named it "ConspriacyTheory II", and I notice that I proceeded for six full pages before I said something which you could no longer ignore. Since I've brought up the spraying operations and HAARP, you have been keenly interested in disproving the fact that U.S. miliitary planes are spraying stuff into our atmosphere.  All is duly noted, dgg9.

Whle this is fun, I'm afraid I've got to go to work, so I hope you'll add about five or six more pages of meaningless distractions while I'm gone. Please do that for me, okay? Thanks!

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: farwest on April 20, 2006, 12:23:58 pm
Of course you have to add energy to a system to raise the temperature. The amount you have to add to obtain a given temperature rise,what you requested, would depend on the existing state of the gas (very complex) and the other energy inputs (solar and cosmic radiation for example) which are also complex and neither predictable or fully known. You keep demanding a useless computation- take volume of atmosphere (unknown because you would have to know how much heated to what degree would cause what end result), assume an averaged temperature (useless because the real armosphere is a very complex mosaic of temperatures), and figure out how much energy to apply and how(useless because none of are privy to what equipment they are using and its specifications).
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 12:25:23 pm
Since I've brought up the spraying operations and HAARP, you have been keenly interested in disproving the fact that U.S. miliitary planes are spraying stuff into our atmosphere.  All is duly noted, dgg9.

Your inability to read what is written is duly noted.

I have NEVER disputed "miliitary planes are spraying stuff into our atmosphere."  I have not even addressed it.  I have addressed your fanstasy theory of temperature control, and have done so by asking you to show basic support for the feasibility of your claims.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 12:29:59 pm
Of course you have to add energy to a system to raise the temperature. The amount you have to add to obtain a given temperature rise,what you requested, would depend on the existing state of the gas (very complex) and the other energy inputs (solar and cosmic radiation for example) which are also complex and neither predictable or fully known. You keep demanding a useless computation- take volume of atmosphere (unknown because you would have to know how much heated to what degree would cause what end result), assume an averaged temperature (useless because the real armosphere is a very complex mosaic of temperatures), and figure out how much energy to apply and how(useless because none of are privy to what equipment they are using and its specifications).

In short, you are unable to verify the feasibility of the conspiracy theory in question.  Yet so many posters buy into it uncritically.

You're failing to see my point: you make the easiest, best-case calculation.  You make use of averages.  You look at that number.  If it is unachievable, you need go no further.  Yes of course the answer is probably an order of magnitude or more off -- but in the favorable direction.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Harleqwin on April 20, 2006, 12:47:50 pm
Dgg9 you are a troll at best.  I clearly quoted what you said, and then provided the info that proved that what you said was wrong.  Heating the atmosphere is not a theory, it is (some of what) HAARP can do.

so you are now proven to be making foolish statements and twisting the line of discussion once you are "outed."

if you persist in ignoring this, I will repost this.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 12:55:44 pm
Dgg9 you are a troll at best.  I clearly quoted what you said, and then provided the info that proved that what you said was wrong.  Heating the atmosphere is not a theory, it is (some of what) HAARP can do.

Sorry, you are trolling.  The conspiracy theory in question is NOT about raising the temperature of some small patch of the atmosphere.  No one has ever disputed that.  The conspiracy theory is raising a large enough area of the atmosphere so as to change climate.

so you are now proven to be making foolish statements and twisting the line of discussion once you are "outed."

if you persist in ignoring this, I will repost this.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: pilgrim on April 20, 2006, 01:02:44 pm

Actually, the Conspiracy Theory is about how a bunch of control freaks want to rule the world.

BTW, dggg, is there anything you are not an expert at?

:rolleyes:
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Mr. Inspector on April 20, 2006, 01:12:56 pm
Dear dgg9, look al N. Tesla's work on weather control.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 01:14:30 pm
Actually, the Conspiracy Theory is about how a bunch of control freaks want to rule the world.

Sure, and that meta-theory rests on several lower-tier conspiracy theorettes.  I questioned this one in particular, which then sparked the frenzy of evasions and goal-post shifting you just saw.

Quote
BTW, dggg, is there anything you are not an expert at?

Too many things to count.  That's why basic critical thinking is important -- it allows you (usually) to think of the right questions, even without subject matter expertise.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: F42 on April 20, 2006, 01:57:03 pm
Elias, ever consider bringing back TMM? I could help. This board was SO much better before the trolls showed up.

F42

Heck it has become so bad even Claire rarely posts anymore...

Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Jack Boone on April 20, 2006, 02:26:28 pm
Okay, I'll reply again.  Elias has provided many good posts, on a bunch of related topics.  Dgg9 has managed to say "I don't believe it" in many ways.  Now Elias has gotten into something I know a little about.  As an Alaskan, whose power bill approaches .50/kw, the concept that a gigawatt is too small to do any good is ludicrous.  

I'm not a crazy conspiracy theorist, but Elias's recent posts about HAARP make a lot of sense.  Especially with what official government documents don't say.  For example, not one mention of particulate matter being put into the atmosphere at Poker Flat, but they do say that a HAARP facility will be nearby. I can produce a drunk Irishman who was sure that the unusual aurora effects 30 years ago were proof of extraterrestrials.  And that old schoolyard trick "billy did it first".  Yes, the HAARP documents mention that the Russians had done it first, but don't mention that the results of their research resulted in a whole portion of the electromagnetic band becoming unusable.  So what did shut down the Loran system?  We quietly replaced it with gps.  

Why does the present HAARP system try to avoid airliners?  But can't seem to keep it from killing large numbers of birds in the pacific flyway?

I have been unwilling to glunk up the thread with my doubts regarding the inheritance of the international banking conspiracy, but I'm changing my mind.  I realize that if I were a close relative of Rhodes, I might have learned more from my own father than "FD Roosevelt was an asshole who would destroy the world".  

Now go for it, Dgg9.  That ought to be good for at least 5 posts which just say "I don't believe it" or "can you prove it?"
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 02:34:49 pm
Okay, I'll reply again.  Elias has provided many good posts, on a bunch of related topics.

A shame that none of them address his claim (that HAARP is capable of raising the temp of enough air to change the weather).  But now it seems that he is backing away from that claim, so perhaps it's moot.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on April 20, 2006, 04:11:18 pm
G'Day All,

No doubt dgg9 you would deny the fact that the sun raises in the east and demand that someone who asserted such a thing prove it to you. The fact is the sun does raise in the east! It is self evident.
...
Americus

Actually, the horizon goes down in the east  :rolleyes:

And damn, I thought I just had a lot of shit to print out from Elias for bathroom reading and now, all these pages of point counter(off)point to deal with.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on April 20, 2006, 04:17:02 pm

Quote
The barium which was discussed in the paper which I offered  in my previous post is not an indigenous element of the atmosphere,

Sorry, but this is still a bait and switch.  What HAARP is doing and what you are claiming as part of your conspiracy theory are two different things, different by astronomical orders of magnitude.  Even if we (for the sake of argument) assume the barium is being sprayed, that doesn't even begin to relate to your conspiracy theory of weather control via high power transmission.
...

But it does support his assertion that USGov dot Inc is lying when people in their employ say they are not doing this. What motive might they have to lie? How are they, our alleged servants, to justify this lying when it is our money and our freedom with which they are fucking?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 04:23:28 pm
But it does support his assertion that USGov dot Inc is lying when people in their employ say they are not doing this.

That might be.

I addressed my point very specifically to one claim, not the whole superstructure.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Mr. Inspector on April 20, 2006, 04:38:05 pm
Dear dgg9, please remember that Mr. Tesla gave us the  practical useage of AC power he and Westinghouse made possible the Niagara Falls Power generation station. Mr.Edison wanter to generate DC current and Tesla showed the wonders of AC transmission. Please remember he invented the Tesla coil for radio and invented the short core dynamo for ships. He later showed how to transmit power by using the earth as the conductor. It does work. The Russians proved is some years ago.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on April 20, 2006, 04:43:25 pm
...
I am perfectly willing to stipulate that you can transmit high frequency signals up to a small section of the ionosphere and change some of its properties (for as long as the wave is transmitting).
...

...
I am perfectly willing to stipulate that you can transmit high frequency signals up to a small section of the ionosphere and change some of its properties (for as long as the wave is transmitting).  That's fine.  However, if you want to change a significant area -- an area a million times larger -- then you need a million times as much energy.
...


2. POTENTIAL APPLICATIONS
2.1. Geophysical Probing
2.2. Generation of ELF/VLF Waves

...

The Soviets, operating at higher powers than the West, now have claimed significant stimulated ionization by electron-impact ionization. The claim is that HF energy, via wave-particle interaction, accelerates ionospheric electrons to energies well in excess of 20 electron volts (eV) so that they will ionize neutral atmospheric particles with which they collide. Given that the Soviet HF facilities are several times more powerful than the Western facilities at comparable mid-latitudes, and given that the latter appear to be on a threshold of a new "wave-particle" regime of phenomena, it is believed that the Soviets have crossed that threshold and are exploring a regime of phenomena still unavailable for study or application in the West.

...

It is important to realize that many different instabilities are simultaneously excited in the plasma and that one instability process can greatly influence the development of another. Studies of competition between similar types of instability processes and the interaction between dissimilar wave-plasma interactions are in the earliest stages of development.
...
The large (factor of four) enhancement in electron temperature that accompanies this phenomenon gives rise to a class of instability processes that is completely different from others observed under "normal" conditions where the ionospheric thermal balance is not greatly disrupted.
...
4.3. Scanning Capabilities

A heater that has scanning capabilities is very desirable in order to enlarge the size of heated regions in the ionosphere. Although a scanning range from vertical to very oblique (about 10 degrees above the horizon) would be desirable, engineering considerations will most likely narrow the scanning range to about 45 degrees from the vertical. The capability of rapidly scanning (microseconds time scale) in any direction, is also very desirable.
You're HF quote made me go back and look for the ELF and VLF items I had scanned (I kinda thought the L might be at the other end of the spectrum from the H). I really haven't had the chance to read the whole thing so far, just scan it.

Whilst there (page 8 of this thread) I noticed an important point. They don't know the answers to your questions. They are spending our money to research it. They have found things that elementary physics can't answer, specifically, once the effect of their actions is to make a significant change, then the effects of future actions cannot be predicted from current knowledge. But, they are trying to find out. Are we to trust that they are trying to find out only for reasons that are beneficial to you and me and Elias and LL and everyone else concerned? Or could they use this knowledge for tactics which we would not be too excited about? Do we, no matter how many of us combine our resources, have the capability to counteract any nefarious purposes materially? I had .05 in my bank account for 2 days prior to last payday.

Can we counterattack by making an extensive base of knowledge available?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: jack on April 20, 2006, 06:43:54 pm
I see HAARP as a testing ground to find out what is possible. It is a small scale experiment.

My point is that the "scale" IS the issue.  The dose is the poison.

I am perfectly willing to stipulate that you can transmit high frequency signals up to a small section of the ionosphere and change some of its properties (for as long as the wave is transmitting).  That's fine.  However, if you want to change a significant area -- an area a million times larger -- then you need a million times as much energy.  That's why I keep asking if anyone here has any idea how much energy is required, and if that's even remotely feasible.  But no one is curious.

Not everything in the world is linear... we know that small changes in the ionosphere can cause disproportional effects in the lower atmosphere. This might be a point of the whole HAARP project - it's a reasearch project, after all. For what we know they are just trying to figure out how to control it. Your assertions that "chemtrails" have nothing to do with HAARP are baseless - they could be both parts of the same project, namely research of the ways to control the weather... Your cock-sure certainity that this couldn't possibly scale only reveal complete ignorance of non-linear phisical prcesses. You might google "chaos theory" for starters...
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: jack on April 20, 2006, 07:07:50 pm
Yes, it is numerical. My whole point is that it depends on what the goal is. Is it massive weather changes you are after, or minor changes. Increasing rainfall, perhaps. Or, raising temps enough to support the global warming theory, at least in part. What is the goal? Use weather as a weapon? How?

If you don't know the scenario, it's hard to formulate a theory.

If "weather change" is the theory, then pick a scenario, any scenario, and see if it's feasible.  Why is this considered an unreasonable request?

The point is you are missing the point ;) The science of meteorology is pretty much at the level of alchemy right now. What we know is the whole subject is pretty complex and there are no fast and simple rules. So, no we cannot pick the scenario and check (scientifically) if it's feasible, the science is not there yet.

Ponder this: the general conditions in equatorial Atlantic are pretty much the same and yet, sometimes, seamingly out of nowhere the hurricane forms. Do you assume somebody switched the giant fan on? No, something changed (something in itself seemingly insignificant) and caused the hurricane to form. So, who knows, maybe heating up the small portion of the ionosphere in certain conditions could trigger the hurricane? You don't know, neither do I, neither (presumably) does the gvt. That's why they are experimenting. What's so inplausible in that?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 08:06:48 pm
Your assertions that "chemtrails" have nothing to do with HAARP are baseless

No, actually your sentence is 100% baseless.

I have said exacly nothing about chemtrails wrt HAARP.

You might want to keep better track of your attributions.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 08:07:37 pm
The point is you are missing the point ;) The science of meteorology is pretty much at the level of alchemy right now.

But physics isn't -- that's what you're missing.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: jack on April 20, 2006, 08:16:39 pm
Your assertions that "chemtrails" have nothing to do with HAARP are baseless

No, actually your sentence is 100% baseless.

I have said exacly nothing about chemtrails wrt HAARP.

You might want to keep better track of your attributions.
[qoute author=dgg9]
Even if we (for the sake of argument) assume the barium is being sprayed, that doesn't even begin to relate to your conspiracy theory of weather control via high power transmission.
Quote
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: jack on April 20, 2006, 08:19:45 pm
The point is you are missing the point ;) The science of meteorology is pretty much at the level of alchemy right now.

But physics isn't -- that's what you're missing.

Rrright... you can't have a hurricane without switching a giant fan on. and since there are no giant fans capable of creating hurricanes there cannot be such a thing as hurricane. Katrina was just a mass hallucination... or another conspiracy theory.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 08:28:22 pm
Your assertions that "chemtrails" have nothing to do with HAARP are baseless

No, actually your sentence is 100% baseless.

I have said exacly nothing about chemtrails wrt HAARP.

You might want to keep better track of your attributions.
[qoute author=dgg9]
Even if we (for the sake of argument) assume the barium is being sprayed, that doesn't even begin to relate to your conspiracy theory of weather control via high power transmission.
Quote

That matches what I said exactly.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 08:29:13 pm
The point is you are missing the point ;) The science of meteorology is pretty much at the level of alchemy right now.

But physics isn't -- that's what you're missing.

Rrright... you can't have a hurricane without switching a giant fan on. and since there are no giant fans capable of creating hurricanes there cannot be such a thing as hurricane. Katrina was just a mass hallucination... or another conspiracy theory.

Non sequitur.  The original debate was about raising air temperature.  Try again.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: jack on April 20, 2006, 08:52:48 pm
Non sequitur.  The original debate was about raising air temperature.  Try again.

No, that's what you want it to be...
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: henshawe on April 20, 2006, 09:06:08 pm
G'Day All,

Since this is a theory as set forth by Elias with supporting evidence with links to the relevant documents, as well as some of the documents themselves which serve as supporting evidence, I would suggest that Elias has thus far made his case with clarity in a scholarly manner.

The ball is now in your court dgg9, if you disagree, to refute his points as he has made them on a point by point basis. Since you disagree with his conclusions you are required to offer a rebuttal as alternative hypothesis or theory to explain these facts as presented without hyperbole or fraud in quoting from other posts in this thread.

Such a rebuttal would include at minimum, a clear thesis statement. A clear development of your thesis with supporting facts, documents, links to those documents, news articles, scholarly research papers and any other facts, supported with evidence you care to include. A clear and consice closing statement. A bibliography and footnotes would be welcome for clarity such that we can verify these facts, documents and evidence for ourselves. Anything less is obfuscation, therefore a waste of time.

If you are unable, or unwilling to do this, you will thereby, demonstrate your fundamental refusal to understand what is being published here, in addition you will have demonstrated your refusal and fear to examine this information with a discerning open mind.

I await your post in which you will present such a cogent, well written rebuttal, with cites, links and documentary evidence, to this conspiracy theory_part two thread.

Americus
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: F42 on April 20, 2006, 09:21:33 pm
It appears that the real reason for this annoying thing called dog9 to be posting here on the CT thread can be found in this thread....

.https://erte.hmdnsgroup.com/~tcftalk/clairefiles/index.php?topic=9283.msg116036#msg116036



Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Leonidas the Younger on April 20, 2006, 09:35:59 pm
f42 -

Why must you be uncivil?

As for linking to that thread, maybe you should get a sense of humour so you won't miss the point.

-- Leonidas
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 09:53:26 pm
The ball is now in your court dgg9, if you disagree, to refute his points as he has made them on a point by point basis.

False, and total BS.  I have no obligation to engage the total monolith.  I choose to engage those singular falsehoods and unsustantiated claims as I see fit.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 20, 2006, 09:55:29 pm
Non sequitur.  The original debate was about raising air temperature.  Try again.

No, that's what you want it to be...

Really? ...:

Therefore, we must not limit ourselves to just the temperature-altering possibilities posed by the presence of inserted metallic materials in our atmosphere. We can say, as I'm sure you'll agree, that one of the possibilities embodied by the presence of the inserted metallic materials into our atmosphere is an ability to “heat up the atmosphere”.

Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: ladylearning on April 20, 2006, 10:04:35 pm
I agree with Ragnar. It's a shame that the orderly presentation of information is now spattered with numerous repititions of the same comment/question/denial by dgg9. 
I would venture to say that no one, not even those conducting the experiment/process, knows what is and is not possible.  What is of more concern to me is that if anything they choose to do is possible it will be done with no regard for life.

When it comes to conspiricy "theories" there are those predisposed to believe them and those that are predisposed to deny that there are people/agencies/governments that would willfully and knowingly harm anyone.  Proving any conspiricy is difficult, even after the fact. The unfolding of events generally appears after a considerable passage of time when it is too late to do anything about it and the immediacy or urgency no longer exists. Proving intent is proportionately more difficult.  Coming to the conclusion that there is or is not a conspiricy requires one’s diliberate and critical analysis of the events or information which creates one’s suspicions.  It behooves us to be watchful and wary given our government's history of having willfully conspired to murder or do harm to vast numbers of people of all nationalities.
We found out years later that Viet Nam was not about a communist threat.  We found out years later that the Japanese code which gave us the information about Pearl Harbor's bombing was discovered well before the event.  Iran Contra. The Northwoods Document. The Philadelphia Experiment. Dosing out troops with LSD.  The Tuskeegee experiment. 
Anyone who blindly accepts the tripe dished out by government agencies is, IMO, severely afflicted, underinformed or paid to do so.

LL
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: henshawe on April 20, 2006, 10:25:47 pm
G'Day All,

On the contrary dgg9, your assertion is obfuscation and denial, an adolesent attempt to divert attention from the central thesis of this thread.

"I choose to engage those singular falsehoods and unsustantiated claims as I see fit."

I understand, you are unwilling and or unable or both to rebut the information presented here in a cogent manner, furthermore this statement is the height of arrogance and further obfuscation of the facts as presented here. You have presented no documentary evidence to support your assertions, therefore they are worthless on their face.

All claims in this thread have so far been documented by Elais and others.

Americus





Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on April 20, 2006, 11:17:38 pm
...
Non sequitur.  The original debate was about raising air temperature.  Try again.

Whilst I was in the crapper reading A Son of Thunder Patrick Henry and the American Public my mind wandered to this thread, this topic and this point. It hit me that the issue here is that, dgg9, you are attempting to set the terms of the discussion with those who aren't so interested in the point you have chosen. The issue is not whether physics will allow the air temperature to be raised. The issue is that those who have usurped our government are trying to figure out if they can do it. This is only a small part of their arsenal of tactics. And this is only a small part of what they might want to do with HAARP. Your desire to focus on the feasibility of heating the air to the point where the weather can be controlled totally diverts from the real issue at hand. Even if you could prove that it is not possible (and I state emphatically that you cannot, since as has been noted the effects of their actions cause a fundamental change to the atmosphere which in turn creates conditions where the results of actions taken cannot be determined from current knowledge), that is moot to the point of intent. Why you keep smacking the nail of intent with the screwdriver of feasibility is beyond me.

No matter what you might be able to prove they cannot do you cannot draw the inference from that inability to the conclusion that they are not at least attempting to do so.

Please, if your intent is to refute the theory that there is a concerted effort by those who have usurped our government to do us evil, focus on something that might lend some measure of authority to that assertion.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 20, 2006, 11:24:54 pm


I would like to thank all the reasonable and intelligent post-makers here – y'all are an inspiration. Today while at work I wondered what condition this thread would be showing when I got home again. Arriving back here at my hideout, it was a pleasure to read so many contemplative and insightful posts here.

To share my thanks for each of you who did a lot of footwork for me today and brought forward so many strong points, I'd like to type in here something just for you.

~

There is a difference between one and another hour of life in their authority and subsequent effect. Our faith comes in moments; our vice is habitual. Yet there is a depth in those brief moments which constrains us to ascribe more reality to them than to all other experiences. For this reason the argument which is always forthcoming to silence those who conceive extraordinary hopes of man, namely the appeal to experience, is for ever invalid and vain. We give up the past to the objector, and yet we hope. He must explain this hope. We grant that human life is mean, but how did we find out that it was mean? What is the ground of this uneasiness of ours; of this old discontent? What is the universal sense of want and ignorance, but the fine innuendo by which the soul makes its enormous claim? Why do men feel that the natural history of man has never been written, but he is always leaving behind what you have said of him, and it becomes old, and books of metaphysics worthless? The philosophy of six thousand years has not searched the chambers and magazines of the soul. In its experiments there has always remained, in the last analysis, a residuum it could not resolve. Man is a stream whose source is hidden. Our being is descending into us from we know now whence. The most exact calculator has no prescience that somewhat incalculable may not balk the very next moment. I am constrained evrey moment to acknowledge a higher origin for events than the will I call mine.

As with events, so is it with thoughts. When I watch that flowing river, which, out of regions I see not, pours for a season its streams into me, I see that I am a pensioner; not a cause but a surprised spectator of this ethereal water; that I desire and look up and put myself in the attitude of reception, but from some alien energy the visions come.

The Supreme Critic on the errors of the past and the present, and the only prophet of that which must be, is that great nature in which we rest as the earth lies in the soft arms of the atmosphere; that Unity, that Over-soul, within which every man's particular being is contained and made one with all other; that common heart of which all sincere conversation is the worship, to which all right action is submission; that overpowering reality which confutes our tricks and talents, and constrains every one to pass for what he is, and to speak from his character and not from his tongue, and which evermore tends to pass into our thought and hand and become wisdom and virtue and power and beauty. We live in succession, in division, in parts, in particles. Meantime within man is the soul of the whole; the wise silence; the universal beauty, to which every part and particle is equally related; the eternal One. And this deep power in which we exist and whose beatitude is all accessible to us, is not only self-sufficing and perfect in every hour, but the act of seeing and the thing seen, the seer and the spectacle, the subject and the object, are one. We see the world piece by piece, as the sun, the moon, the animal, the tree; but the whole, of which these are the shining parts, is the soul. Only by the vision of that Wisdom can the horoscope of the ages be read, and by falling back on our better thoughts, by yielding to the spirit of prophecy which is innate in every man, we can know what it saith. Every man's words who speaks from that life must sound vain to those who do not dwell in the same thought on their own part. I dare not speak for it. My words do not carry its august sense; they fall short and cold. Only itself can inspire whom it will, and behold! Their speech shall be lyrical, and sweet, and universal as the rising of the wind. Yet I desire, even by profane words, if I may not use sacred, to indicate the heaven of this deity and to report what hints I have collected of the transcendent simplicity and energy of the Highest Law.

~

The sovereignty of this nature whereof we speak is made known by its independency of those limitations which circumscribe us on every hand. The soul circumscribes all things. As I have said, it contradicts all experience. In like manner it abolishes time and space. The influence of the senses has in most men overpowered the mind to that degree that the walls of time and space have come to look real and insurmountable; and to speak with levity of these limits is, in the world, the sign of insanity. Yet time and space are but inverse measures of the force of the soul.

~

To go into solitude, a man needs to retire as much from his chamber as from society. I am not solitary whilst I read and write, though nobody is with me. But if a man would be alone, let him look at the stars. The rays that come from those heavenly worlds will separate between him and what he touches. One might think the atmosphere was made transparent with this design, to give man, in the heavenly bodies, the perpetual presence of the sublime. Seen in the streets of cities, how great they are! If the stars should appear one night in a thousand years, how would men believe and adore; and preserve for many generations the remembrance of the city of God which had been shown! But every night come out these envoys of beauty, and light the universe with their admonishing smile.

~

When we speak of nature in this manner, we have a distinct but most poetical sense in the mind. We mean the integrity of impression made by manifold natural objects. It is this which distinguishes the stick of timber of the wood-cutter from the tree of the poet. The charming landscape which I saw this morning in indubitably made up of some twenty or thirty farms. Miller owns this field, Locke that, and Manning the woodland beyond. But none of them owns the landscape. There is a property in the horizon which no man has but he whose eye can integrate all the parts, that is, the poet. This is the best part of these men's farms, yet to this their warranty deeds give no title.

~

The above snippets are drawn from Ralph Waldo Emerson's major work entitled “Nature”. I have drawn from several sections of that work to select the included quotations above. I felt, as I typed those lines into the screen here, that in a way, for me, just doing this shall purge and cleanse some of the negative energies which have descended upon my little conspiracy theory thread. It is as if I were to burn some sage and Montana sweet grass in my home, as we often do here in Montana, and wave the smoke about my face and around the air about my head, to dissuade unwanted spirits. Somehow, reading over the many excellent posts here which revealed the nature and character of this thread's antagonist felt very encouraging to me, and caused me to think of Emerson, and I wished to share a bit of him with you here. Thank you very much for being good men of conscience, and for caring for the truth. And thank you also for being willing to confront the forces of evil even here, where most of us feel at home.

I'll be back shortly with a continuation of our conspiracy theory.

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: ladylearning on April 20, 2006, 11:41:19 pm
Why you keep smacking the nail of intent with the screwdriver of feasibility is beyond me.

No matter what you might be able to prove they cannot do you cannot draw the inference from that inability to the conclusion that they are not at least attempting to do so.

Excellent. Said much more concisely than my own wordy attempt.
Besides, whatever whoever is spraying into the atmosphere, for whatever reason(s), it sure makes a dreary skyscape devoid of the beautiful deep blue of a healthy sky. I have suspicions of what the trails are doing to our health but I have the proof of my own observation of what it's doing to deprive us of beauty. That pisses me off just as much as anything harmful I might breathe.

LL
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: farwest on April 21, 2006, 12:17:00 am
To Elias- thank you and well said. To dgg9- get a PChem textbook and a volume on atmospheric modeling and figure out for yourself that this a problem involving a COMPLEX gas, not a simple gas.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Roy J. Tellason on April 21, 2006, 01:39:17 am
If the stars should appear one night in a thousand years, how would men believe and adore; and preserve for many generations the remembrance of the city of God which had been shown! But every night come out these envoys of beauty, and light the universe with their admonishing smile.
~
The above snippets are drawn from Ralph Waldo Emerson's major work entitled “Nature”.

(Slight sidetrack...)

If I'm not mistaken,  that bit of the above quote is what inspired Isaac Asimov's story "Nightfall".  Anybody know one way or the other?

(/Slight sidetrack...)
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 21, 2006, 06:21:07 am
I agree with Ragnar. It's a shame that the orderly presentation of information is now spattered with numerous repititions of the same comment/question/denial by dgg9.

If this was to be a lecture, with no questions permitted, why didn't you say so at the beginning?  And the question was repeated solely due to the evasions and lack of response.

Quote
When it comes to conspiricy "theories" there are those predisposed to believe them and those that are predisposed to deny that there are people/agencies/governments that would willfully and knowingly harm anyone.

False alternative, but typical.  There is, of course, a third alternative: those who think for themselves, who neither blindly trust government versions BUT who don't gullibly swallow all conspiracy theories.

Clearly, though, at least 1/2 of this board falls into the first of your two categories.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 21, 2006, 06:24:09 am
To Elias- thank you and well said. To dgg9- get a PChem textbook and a volume on atmospheric modeling and figure out for yourself that this a problem involving a COMPLEX gas, not a simple gas.

If you think no engineering approximation is possible, then -- you haven't done much engineering.  However, if we assume for one moment that you're correct -- what does that say about the gullibility of those buying in to a theory they can't even begin to verify?

I will say, though, that despite your lack of cordiality, at least you actually addressed the points I raised.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 21, 2006, 06:26:21 am
On the contrary dgg9, your assertion is obfuscation and denial, an adolesent attempt to divert attention from the central thesis of this thread.

Nonsense.  I don't care about the central thesis of the thread.  I care about scientific misinformation.  Your "rule" that I am obliged to engage the entire thread or none of it is so much worthless BS.

I choose to engage those singular falsehoods and unsustantiated claims as I see fit.

Quote
I understand, you are unwilling and or unable or both to rebut the information presented here in a cogent manner

Willing, able -- but unmotivated.  Hence, I pick and choose accordingly.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 21, 2006, 06:33:21 am
It hit me that the issue here is that, dgg9, you are attempting to set the terms of the discussion with those who aren't so interested in the point you have chosen.

Just as you are doing with me.

But that's not even true.  Someone starts a thread, then drones on at length, over a multitude of subjects, most of which don't interest me.  The topic then strays into an area I choose to reply in.  I do reply, asking a few questions.  These questions are generally evaded, with the usual ad hom thrown in, among the general smokescreen.

How is this different than ANY thread.  People on this board -- any board -- chime in and respond to the portions of a thread that interest them.  This is normal.  What is your complaint?  Are you living in some parallel universe where, all this time, the norm is that you engage 100% or 0% of any Internet thread?

Quote
The issue is not whether physics will allow the air temperature to be raised. The issue is that those who have usurped our government are trying to figure out if they can do it.

No.  To me, the issue is the physics and the air termperature.  If you think the real issue is the latter, then don't discuss the former.

Really, the "issue" is ANYTHING the original poster brought up as support for his argument.  It's all fair game.

Quote
This is only a small part of their arsenal of tactics.

No doubt, but that's what I chose to address.

Quote
Your desire to focus on the feasibility of heating the air to the point where the weather can be controlled totally diverts from the real issue at hand.

The "real issue" of any thread is the correctness of all statements within.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 21, 2006, 09:24:51 am
I think we have successfully demonstrated that HAARP exists, that Air Force 2025 exists, and that the U.S. government is conducting a massive and mysterious covert operation involving the use of U.S. government airplanes which have been caught spraying materials into our atmosphere.

At present time, I feel that I should introduce just three more topics to this thread before getting into the nitty-gritty of the actual events of, and those leading up to, and those following, 911. We can flesh-in more supportive history as needed later.

The three topics are:
1.The creation of the National Security State which has replaced the United States of America.
2.Depleted Uranium.
3.Anthrax

The “National Security State” was born officially in 1947.

National security was, of course, a concept which was present in the mentality of the nation's founders, who provided for the Federal government's role in fielding an army and navy. The Federal government has always, since ratification of the Constitution by the several states, been obliged and mandated to protect the newly-created union of states.

But as Gore Vidal has noted, the “National Security State” did not arrive with the full force of law until 1947. We are aware that President Truman had a close adviser named Clark Clifford, just as Woodrow Wilson had a close adviser named Colonel Edward Mandel House.

Clark Clifford was assisted in the writing of the National Security Act of 1947 by two Wall Street lawyers who had worked throughout the 1930s with Union Banking Corporation and Harriman Brothers on Wall Street to build up the Third Reich and Hitler's Nazi movement under the Dawes and Young plan(s), both of whom, in conjunction with Hjalmar Schacht of the Reichsbank, back in 1930  created the Bank of International Settlements. The Wall Street lawyers who helped Clark Clifford write the National Security Act of 1947 were Allen Dulles and John Foster Dulles. That means that two of Hitler's biggest pro-Nazi Wall Street lawyers were involved in creating the National Security State here in America, which President Truman signed into law.

The United States of America, an entity which we may describe as being, at the end of WWII, already packed and standing with ticket in hand, went South at that time, leaving in its place the National Security State. The National Security State replaced, with little fanfare at the end of World War II, the United States of America.

This fact was not announced as such to a recovering American public, but has quietly been in operation ever since. Jubilant Americans, having been rescued from the Great Depression of the 1930s and having successfully defeated the Axis powers abroad, were facing the latter half of the 1940s with optimism, healing of wounds, an upturn in financial promise, and an exploding industrial strength which was revitalizing communities across the land. With full trust and confidence in the Federal government, most Americans worked, contributed to the national economy, and looked forward to times of peace and prosperity. Thus was set the stage of the coming worry-free 1950s.

We may note that just as the American public naively expected a “peace dividend” when we won the Cold War decades after World War II, even so did most Americans expect peace dividends after WWII. Oddly, as we shall see, neither era provided that peace, for a loosely-connected cabal of insidious men in seats of power had a more profitable plan, a plan which had the blessings of the international banking/finance owners, a plan which made necessary yet more war. These men are involved in the history of my personal conspiracy theory. These men, and their predecessors and their heirs, gave us, and subsequently reinforced, the National Security State.

I emphasize again – two major players in the creation of the National Security State were pro-Nazi lawyers throughout the 1930s, were deeply involved in the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR), were regarded as esteemed Statesmen, and would leave their mark upon our nation in very significant ways. John Foster Dulles became Secretary of State under Dwight D. Eisenhower. His brother, Allen Dulles, became the head of CIA under Eisenhower and Kennedy. Both had had intimate relations with Averell Harriman, E. Roland Harriman, (and their mother, who was a major eugenicist), with Prescott Bush, with Fritz Thyssen and many other Nazis, and with George Herbert Walker, Prescott Bush's father-in-law. Both men were employed at the prestigious law firm on Wall Street – Sullivan and Cromwell.

Born of pro-Nazi lawyerism in 1947, the National Security Act of 1947 did three things which were subsequent to its major deed. It created the National Security Counci (NSC)l at the White House, where Oliver North would later commit treason and get away with it. It created the CIA, which quickly came to be staffed with hundreds of Nazi war criminals, thanks to Allen Dulles' brainstorm called “Operation Paperclip”. And it created something which Americans still are not aware – the “Black Budget”.

But overseeing those three very significant creations was what I consider to perhaps be the biggest blow to the United States of America – the National Security Act of 1947 gave the Federal government the “legal right” to lie to the American people.

As I said, the United States of America went South at that time. The departure of our Constitutional Republic was not announced, and indeed, most Americans have never guessed that their duly-constituted government was murdered by that Act under Truman's watch. The removing of our constitutional government has been done in secrecy which was afforded the band of criminal treasoners by their masterpiece, the National Security Act of 1947.

I would like to go into that secret history next. To kick it off, in my next post I shall give a list of a number of activities by CIA.

Salute!
Elias


Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 21, 2006, 09:38:38 am
(Special thanks to Bill St.Clair for resurrecting TMM's website and providing me a way to reclaim many articles which I had feared might have been lost.)

The following is a partial list of United States Covert action abroad to impose or restore favorable political conditions, 1946-1983. The list was prepared by Tom Gervasi of the Center for Military Research and Analysis in 1984, and it was compiled using information available in the public domain.
Found this at a site worth bookmarking:

http://pw1.netcom.com/~ncoic/cia_info.htm

~

1946: GREECE. Restore monarch after overthrow of Metaxas government. Successful.

1946-1955: WEST GERMANY. Average of $6 million annually to support former Nazi intelligence network of General Reinhard Gehlen. Successful.

1948-1968: ITALY. Average of $30 million annually in payments to political and labor leaders to supportanti- Communist candidates in Italian elections. Successful.

1949: GREECE. Military assistance to anti-Communist forces in Greek civil war. Successful.

1949-1953: UKRAINE. Organize and support a Ukrainian resistance movement. Unsuccessful.

1949-1961: BURMA. Support 12,000 Nationalist China troops in Burma under General Li Mi as an incursion force into People's Republic of China. Unsuccessful.

1950-1952: POLAND. Financial and military assistance for Polish Freedom and Independence Movement. Unsuccessful.

1950: ALBANIA. Overthrow government of Enver Hoxha. Unsuccessful.

1951-1954: CHINA. Airdrop guerilla teams into People's Republic of China. Unsuccessful.

1953: IRAN. Overthrow Mossadegh government and install Shah Zahedi. Cost: $10 million. Successful.

1953: PHILLIPINES. Assassination and propaganda campaign to overcome Huk resistance and install government of Ramon Magsaysay. Successful.

1953: COSTA RICA. Overthrow government of Jose Figueres. Unsuccessful.

1954: SOUTH VIETNAM. Install government of Ngo Dinh Diem. Successful.

1954: WEST GERMANY. Arrange abduction and discreditation of West German intelligence chief Otto John, and replace with Reinhard Gehlen. Successful.

1954: GUATEMALA. Overthrow government of Jacobo Arbenz Guzman and replace with Carlos Castillo Armas. Successful.

1955: CHINA. Assassinate Zhou Enlai en route to Bandung Conference. Unsuccessful.

1956: HUNGARY. Financial and military assistance to organize and support a Hungarian resistance movement, and broad propaganda campaign to encourage it. Unsuccessful.

1956: CUBA. Establish anti-Communist police force, Buro de Represion Actividades Communistas (BRAC) under Batista regime. Successful.

1956: EGYPT. Overthrow Nasser government. Unsuccessful.

1956: SYRIA. Overthrow Ghazzi government. Aborted by Israeli invasion of Egypt.

1956-1957: JORDAN. Average of $750,000 annually in personal payments to King Hussein. According to United States government, payments ceased when disclosed in 1976.

1957: LEBANON. Financial assistance for the election of pro-American candidates to Lebanese Parliament. Successful.

1958: INDONESIA. Financial and military assistance, including B-26 bombers, for rebel forces attempting to overthrow Sukarno government. Unsuccessful.

1958-1961: TIBET. Infiltrate Tibetan guerrillas trained in United States to fight Chinese Communists. Unsuccessful.

1959: CAMBODIA. Assassinate Prince Norodum Shianouk. Unsuccessful.

1960: GUATEMALA. Military assistance, including the use of B-26 bombers for government of Miguel Ydigoras Fuentes to defeat rebel forces. Successful.

1960: ANGOLA. Financial and military assistance to rebel forces of Holden Roberto. Inconclusive.

1960: LAOS. Military assistance, including 400 United States Special Forces troops, to deny the Plain of Jars bad Mekong Basin to Pathet Lao. Inconclusive.

1961-1965: LAOS. Average of $300 million annually to recruit and maintain L'Armee Clandestine of 35,000 Hmong and Meo tribesmen and 17,000 Thai mercenaries in support of government of Phoumi Nosavan to resist Pathet Lao. Successful.

1961-1963: CUBA. Assassinate Fidel Castro. Six attempts in this period. Unsuccessful.

1961: CUBA. Train and support invasion force of Cuban exiles to overthrow Castro government, and assist their invasion at the Bay of Pigs. Cost: $62 million. Unsuccessful.

1961: ECUADOR. Overthrow government of Hose Velasco Ibarra. Successful.

1961: CONGO. Precipitate conditions leading to assassination of Patrice Lumumba. Successful.

1961: DOMINICAN REPUBLIC. Precipitate conditions leading to assassination of Rafael Trujillo. Successful.

1961-1966: CUBA. Broad sabotage program, including terrorist attacks on coastal targets and bacteriological warfare, in effort to weaken Castro government. Unsuccessful.

1962: THAILAND. Brigade of 5,000 United States Marines to resist threat to Thai government from Pathet Lao. Successful.

1962-1964: BRITISH GUIANA. Organize labor strikes and riots to overthrow government of Cheddi Jagan. Successful.

1962-1964: BRAZIL. Organize campaign of labor strike and propaganda to overthrow government of Joao Goulart. Successful.

1963: DOMINICAN REPUBLIC. Overthrow government of Juan Bosch in military coup. Successful.

1963: SOUTH VIETNAM. Precipitate conditions leading to assassination of Ngo Dinh Diem. Successful.

1963: ECUADOR. Overthrow government of Carlos Julio Arosemena. Successful.

1963-1984: EL SALVADOR. Organize ORDEN and ANSESAL domestic intelligence networks under direction of General Jose Alberto Medrano and Colonel Nicolas Carranza, and provide intelligence support and training in surveillance, interrogation and assassination techniques. Successful.

1963-1973: IRAQ. Financial and military assistance for Freedom Party of Mulla Mustafa al Barzani in effort to establish independent Kurdistan. Unsuccessful.

1964: CHILE. $20 million in assistance for Eduardo Frei to defeat Salvador Allende in Chilean elections.Successful.

1964: BRAZIL, GUATEMALA, URUGUAY, DOMINICAN REPUBLIC. Provide training in assassination and interrogation techniques for police and intelligence personnel. Inconclusive.

1964: CONGO. Financial and military assistance, including B-26 and T-28 aircraft, and American and exiled Cuban pilots, for Joseph Mobutu and Cyril Adoula, and later for Moise Tshombe in Katanga, to defeat rebel forces loyal to Lumumba. Successful.

1964-1967: SOUTH VIETNAM. Phoenix Program to eliminate Viet Cong political infrastructure through more than 20,000 assassinations. Infiltrated by Viet Cong and only partially successful.

1964-1971: NORTH VIETNAM. Sabotage and ambush missions under Operations Plan 34A by United States Special Forces and Nung tribesmen. Inconclusive.

1965-1971: LAOS. Under Operations Shining Brass and Prairie Fire, sabotage and ambush missions by United States Special Forces personnel and Nung and Meo tribesmen under General Bang Pao. Inconclusive.

1965: THAILAND. Recruit 17,000 mercenaries to support Laotian government of Phoumi Nosavan resisting Pathet Lao. Successful.

1965: PERU. Provide training in assassination and interrogation techniques for Peruvian police and intelligence personnel, similar to training given in Uruguay, Brazil and Dominican Republic, in effort to defeat resistance movement. Unsuccessful.

1965: INDONESIA. Organize campaign of propaganda to overthrow Sukarno government, and precipitate conditions leading to massacre of more than 500,000 members of Indonesian Communist Party, in order to eliminate opposition to new Suharto government. Successful.

1967: BOLIVIA. Assist government in capture of Ernesto Che Guevara. Successful.

1967: GREECE. Overthrow government of George Papandreou and install military government of Colonel George Papadopolous after abdication of King Constantine. Successful.

1967-1971: CAMBODIA. Under Projects Daniel Boone and Salem House, sabotage and ambush missions by United States Special Forces personnel and Meo tribesmen. Inconclusive.

1969-1970: CAMBODIA. Bombing campaign to crush Viet Cong sanctuaries in Cambodia. Unsuccessful.

1970: CAMBODIA. Overthrow government of Prince Norodom Sihanouk. Successful.

1970-1973: CHILE. Campaign of assassinations, propaganda, labor strikes and demonstrations to overthrow government of Salvador Allende. Cost: $8,400,000. Successful.

1973-1978: AFGHANISTAN. Military and financial assistance to government of Mohammed Duad to resist rise to power of Noor Mohammed Taraki. Unsuccessful.

1975: PORTUGAL. Overthrow government of General Vasco dos Santos Goncalves. Successful.

1975: ANGOLA. Military assistance to forces of Holden Roberto and Jonas Savimbi to defeat forces of Popular Movement for the Liberation of Angola (MPLA) during Angolan civil war, and prevent MPLA from forming new government. Unsuccessful.

1975: AUSTRALIA. Propaganda and political pressure to force dissolution of labor government of Gough Whitlam. Successful.

1976: JAMAICA. Military coup to overthrow government of Michael Manley. Unsuccessful.

1976-1984: ANGOLA. Financial and military assistance to forces of Jonas Savimbi to harass and destabilize Neto and succeeding governments. Inconclusive.

1979: IRAN. Install military government to replace Shah and resist growth of Moslem fundamentalism. Unsuccessful.

1979-1980: JAMAICA. Financial pressure to destabilize government of Michael Manley, and campaign propaganda and demonstrations to defeat it in elections. Successful.

1979: AFGHANISTAN. Military aid to rebel forces of Zia Nezri, Zia Khan Nassry, Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, Sayed Ahmed Gailani and conservative mullahs to overthrow government of Hafizullah Amin. Aborted by Soviet intervention and installation of new government.

1980-1984: AFGHANISTAN. Continuing military aid to same rebel groups to harass Soviet occupation forces and challenge legitimacy of government of Babrak Karmal.

1979: SEYCHELLES. Destabilize government of France Albert Rene. Successful.

1980: GRENADA. Mercenary coup to overthrow government of Maurice Bishop. Successful.

1980: DOMINICA. Financial support to Freedom Party of Eugenia Charles to defeat Oliver Seraphim in Dominican elections. Successful.

1980: GUYANA. Assassinate opposition leader Walter Rodney to consolidate power of government of Forbes Burnham. Successful.

1980-1984: NICARAGUA. Military assistance to Adolfo Colero Portocarrero, Alfonso Robelo, Alfonso Callejas, Fernando Chamorro Rappacioli, Eden Pastora Gomez, Adrianna Guillen, Steadman Fagoth and former Somoza National Guard officers, to recruit, train and equip anti- Sandinista forces for sabotage and terrorist incursions into Nicaragua from sanctuaries in Honduras and Costa Rica, in effort to destabilize government of Daniel Ortega Saavedra.

1981: SEYCHELLES. Military coup to overthrow government of France Albert Rene. Unsuccessful.

1981-1982: MAURITIUS. Financial support to Seewoosagar Ramgoolam to bring him to power in 1982 elections. Unsuccessful.

1981-1984: LIBYA. Broad campaign of economic pressure, propaganda, military maneuvers in Egypt, Sudan and Gulf of Sidra, and organization if Libyan Liberation Front exiles to destabilize government of Muammar Qaddafi. Inconclusive.

1982: CHAD. Military assistance to Hissen Habre to overthrow government of Goukouni Oueddei. Successful.

1982: GUATEMALA. Military coup to overthrow government of Angel Anibal Guevara. Successful.

1982: BOLIVIA. Military coup to overthrow government of Celso Torrelio. Successful.

1982: JORDAN. Military assistance to equip and train two Jordanian brigades as an Arab strike force to implement United States policy objectives without Israeli assistance.

1982-1983: SURINAM. Overthrow government of Colonel Desi Bouterse. Three attempts in this period. Unsuccessful.

1984: EL SALVADOR. $1.4 million in financial support for the Presidential election campaign of Jose Napoleon Duarte. Successful.


@Copyright 1984 by the Center for Military Research and Analysis
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 21, 2006, 09:44:44 am
As with the above posted listing of CIA activity, the following was also saved from TMM's website. I am posting the article as it exists on TMM's site, including my comment at the end of the article.

~


Archive: A Timeline of CIA Atrocities
Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 01:20 PM

 
This listing of CIA terrorist activities spans the agency's history, but is very shallow on details, and I've noticed that some important facts have been left out, while others are mentioned only in passing and are therefore apt to defer further investigation. Still, for a thumbnail sketch of the highly immoral and strikingly illegal murder, destruction, and general terroristic activities of the CIA, this listing is an acceptable introduction.
A Timeline of CIA Atrocities


By Steve Kangas


~

The following timeline describes just a few of the hundreds of atrocities and crimes committed by the CIA.

CIA operations follow the same recurring script. First, American business interests abroad are threatened by a popular or democratically elected leader. The people support their leader because he intends to conduct land reform, strengthen unions, redistribute wealth, nationalize foreign-owned industry, and regulate business to protect workers, consumers and the environment. So, on behalf of American business, and often with their help, the CIA mobilizes the opposition. First it identifies right-wing groups within the country (usually the military), and offers them a deal: "We'll put you in power if you maintain a favorable business climate for us." The Agency then hires, trains and works with them to overthrow the existing government (usually a democracy). It uses every trick in the book: propaganda, stuffed ballot boxes, purchased elections, extortion, blackmail, sexual intrigue, false stories about opponents in the local media, infiltration and disruption of opposing political parties, kidnapping, beating, torture, intimidation, economic sabotage, death squads and even assassination. These efforts culminate in a military coup, which installs a right-wing dictator. The CIA trains the dictator's security apparatus to crack down on the traditional enemies of big business, using interrogation, torture and murder. The victims are said to be "communists," but almost always they are just peasants, liberals, moderates, labor union leaders, political opponents and advocates of free speech and democracy. Widespread human rights abuses follow.

This scenario has been repeated so many times that the CIA actually teaches it in a special school, the notorious "School of the Americas." (It opened in Panama but later moved to Fort Benning, Georgia.) Critics have nicknamed it the "School of the Dictators" and "School of the Assassins." Here, the CIA trains Latin American military officers how to conduct coups, including the use of interrogation, torture and murder.

The Association for Responsible Dissent estimates that by 1987, 6 million people had died as a result of CIA covert operations. (2) Former State Department official William Blum correctly calls this an "American Holocaust."

The CIA justifies these actions as part of its war against communism. But most coups do not involve a communist threat. Unlucky nations are targeted for a wide variety of reasons: not only threats to American business interests abroad, but also liberal or even moderate social reforms, political instability, the unwillingness of a leader to carry out Washington's dictates, and declarations of neutrality in the Cold War. Indeed, nothing has infuriated CIA Directors quite like a nation's desire to stay out of the Cold War.

The ironic thing about all this intervention is that it frequently fails to achieve American objectives. Often the newly installed dictator grows comfortable with the security apparatus the CIA has built for him. He becomes an expert at running a police state. And because the dictator knows he cannot be overthrown, he becomes independent and defiant of Washington's will. The CIA then finds it cannot overthrow him, because the police and military are under the dictator's control, afraid to cooperate with American spies for fear of torture and execution. The only two options for the U.S at this point are impotence or war. Examples of this "boomerang effect" include the Shah of Iran, General Noriega and Saddam Hussein. The boomerang effect also explains why the CIA has proven highly successful at overthrowing democracies, but a wretched failure at overthrowing dictatorships.

The following timeline should confirm that the CIA as we know it should be abolished and replaced by a true information-gathering and analysis organization. The CIA cannot be reformed - it is institutionally and culturally corrupt.

1929

The culture we lost - Secretary of State Henry Stimson refuses to endorse a code-breaking operation, saying, "Gentlemen do not read each other's mail."

1941

COI created - In preparation for World War II, President Roosevelt creates the Office of Coordinator of Information (COI). General William "Wild Bill" Donovan heads the new intelligence service.

1942

OSS created - Roosevelt restructures COI into something more suitable for covert action, the Office of Strategic Services (OSS). Donovan recruits so many of the nation's rich and powerful that eventually people joke that "OSS" stands for "Oh, so social!" or "Oh, such snobs!"

1943

Italy - Donovan recruits the Catholic Church in Rome to be the center of Anglo-American spy operations in Fascist Italy. This would prove to be one of America's most enduring intelligence alliances in the Cold War.

1945

OSS is abolished - The remaining American information agencies cease covert actions and return to harmless information gathering and analysis.

Operation PAPERCLIP - While other American agencies are hunting down Nazi war criminals for arrest, the U.S. intelligence community is smuggling them into America, unpunished, for their use against the Soviets. The most important of these is Reinhard Gehlen, Hitler's master spy who had built up an intelligence network in the Soviet Union. With full U.S. blessing, he creates the "Gehlen Organization," a band of refugee Nazi spies who reactivate their networks in Russia. These include SS intelligence officers Alfred Six and Emil Augsburg (who massacred Jews in the Holocaust), Klaus Barbie (the "Butcher of Lyon"), Otto von Bolschwing (the Holocaust mastermind who worked with Eichmann) and SS Colonel Otto Skorzeny (a personal friend of Hitler's). The Gehlen Organization supplies the U.S. with its only intelligence on the Soviet Union for the next ten years, serving as a bridge between the abolishment of the OSS and the creation of the CIA. However, much of the "intelligence" the former Nazis provide is bogus. Gehlen inflates Soviet military capabilities at a time when Russia is still rebuilding its devastated society, in order to inflate his own importance to the Americans (who might otherwise punish him). In 1948, Gehlen almost convinces the Americans that war is imminent, and the West should make a preemptive strike. In the 50s he produces a fictitious "missile gap." To make matters worse, the Russians have thoroughly penetrated the Gehlen Organization with double agents, undermining the very American security that Gehlen was supposed to protect.

1947

Greece - President Truman requests military aid to Greece to support right-wing forces fighting communist rebels. For the rest of the Cold War, Washington and the CIA will back notorious Greek leaders with deplorable human rights records.

CIA created - President Truman signs the National Security Act of 1947, creating the Central Intelligence Agency and National Security Council. The CIA is accountable to the president through the NSC - there is no democratic or congressional oversight. Its charter allows the CIA to "perform such other functions and duties? as the National Security Council may from time to time direct." This loophole opens the door to covert action and dirty tricks.

1948

Covert-action wing created - The CIA recreates a covert action wing, innocuously called the Office of Policy Coordination, led by Wall Street lawyer Frank Wisner. According to its secret charter, its responsibilities include "propaganda, economic warfare, preventive direct action, including sabotage, antisabotage, demolition and evacuation procedures; subversion against hostile states, including assistance to underground resistance groups, and support of indigenous anti-communist elements in threatened countries of the free world."

Italy - The CIA corrupts democratic elections in Italy, where Italian communists threaten to win the elections. The CIA buys votes, broadcasts propaganda, threatens and beats up opposition leaders, and infiltrates and disrupts their organizations. It works -- the communists are defeated.

1949

Radio Free Europe - The CIA creates its first major propaganda outlet, Radio Free Europe. Over the next several decades, its broadcasts are so blatantly false that for a time it is considered illegal to publish transcripts of them in the U.S.

Late 40s

Operation MOCKINGBIRD - The CIA begins recruiting American news organizations and journalists to become spies and disseminators of propaganda. The effort is headed by Frank Wisner, Allan Dulles, Richard Helms and Philip Graham. Graham is publisher of The Washington Post, which becomes a major CIA player. Eventually, the CIA's media assets will include ABC, NBC, CBS, Time, Newsweek, Associated Press, United Press International, Reuters, Hearst Newspapers, Scripps-Howard, Copley News Service and more. By the CIA's own admission, at least 25 organizations and 400 journalists will become CIA assets.

1953

Iran - CIA overthrows the democratically elected Mohammed Mossadegh in a military coup, after he threatened to nationalize British oil. The CIA replaces him with a dictator, the Shah of Iran, whose secret police, SAVAK, is as brutal as the Gestapo.

Operation MK-ULTRA - Inspired by North Korea's brainwashing program, the CIA begins experiments on mind control. The most notorious part of this project involves giving LSD and other drugs to American subjects without their knowledge or against their will, causing several to commit suicide. However, the operation involves far more than this. Funded in part by the Rockefeller and Ford foundations, research includes propaganda, brainwashing, public relations, advertising, hypnosis, and other forms of suggestion.

1954

Guatemala - CIA overthrows the democratically elected Jacob Arbenz in a military coup. Arbenz has threatened to nationalize the Rockefeller-owned United Fruit Company, in which CIA Director Allen Dulles also owns stock. Arbenz is replaced with a series of right-wing dictators whose bloodthirsty policies will kill over 100,000 Guatemalans in the next 40 years.


1954-1958

North Vietnam - CIA officer Edward Lansdale spends four years trying to overthrow the communist government of North Vietnam, using all the usual dirty tricks. The CIA also attempts to legitimize a tyrannical puppet regime in South Vietnam, headed by Ngo Dinh Diem. These efforts fail to win the hearts and minds of the South Vietnamese because the Diem government is opposed to true democracy, land reform and poverty reduction measures. The CIA's continuing failure results in escalating American intervention, culminating in the Vietnam War.

1956

Hungary - Radio Free Europe incites Hungary to revolt by broadcasting Khruschev's Secret Speech, in which he denounced Stalin. It also hints that American aid will help the Hungarians fight. This aid fails to materialize as Hungarians launch a doomed armed revolt, which only invites a major Soviet invasion. The conflict kills 7,000 Soviets and 30,000 Hungarians.

1957-1973

Laos - The CIA carries out approximately one coup per year trying to nullify Laos' democratic elections. The problem is the Pathet Lao, a leftist group with enough popular support to be a member of any coalition government. In the late 50s, the CIA even creates an "Armee Clandestine" of Asian mercenaries to attack the Pathet Lao. After the CIA's army suffers numerous defeats, the U.S. starts bombing, dropping more bombs on Laos than all the U.S. bombs dropped in World War II. A quarter of all Laotians will eventually become refugees, many living in caves.

1959

Haiti - The U.S. military helps "Papa Doc" Duvalier become dictator of Haiti. He creates his own private police force, the "Tonton Macoutes," who terrorize the population with machetes. They will kill over 100,000 during the Duvalier family reign. The U.S. does not protest their dismal human rights record.

1961

The Bay of Pigs - The CIA sends 1,500 Cuban exiles to invade Castro's Cuba. But "Operation Mongoose" fails, due to poor planning, security and backing. The planners had imagined that the invasion will spark a popular uprising against Castro -- which never happens. A promised American air strike also never occurs. This is the CIA's first public setback, causing President Kennedy to fire CIA Director Allen Dulles.

Dominican Republic - The CIA assassinates Rafael Trujillo, a murderous dictator Washington has supported since 1930. Trujillo's business interests have grown so large (about 60 percent of the economy) that they have begun competing with American business interests.

Ecuador - The CIA-backed military forces the democratically elected President Jose Velasco to resign. Vice President Carlos Arosemana replaces him; the CIA fills the now vacant vice presidency with its own man.

Congo (Zaire) - The CIA assassinates the democratically elected Patrice Lumumba. However, public support for Lumumba's politics runs so high that the CIA cannot clearly install his opponents in power. Four years of political turmoil follow.

1963

Dominican Republic - The CIA overthrows the democratically elected Juan Bosch in a military coup. The CIA installs a repressive, right-wing junta.

Ecuador - A CIA-backed military coup overthrows President Arosemana, whose independent (not socialist) policies have become unacceptable to Washington. A military junta assumes command, cancels the 1964 elections, and begins abusing human rights.

1964

Brazil - A CIA-backed military coup overthrows the democratically elected government of Joao Goulart. The junta that replaces it will, in the next two decades, become one of the most bloodthirsty in history. General Castelo Branco will create Latin America's first death squads, or bands of secret police who hunt down "communists" for torture, interrogation and murder. Often these "communists" are no more than Branco's political opponents. Later it is revealed that the CIA trains the death squads.

1965

Indonesia - The CIA overthrows the democratically elected Sukarno with a military coup. The CIA has been trying to eliminate Sukarno since 1957, using everything from attempted assassination to sexual intrigue, for nothing more than his declaring neutrality in the Cold War. His successor, General Suharto, will massacre between 500,000 to 1 million civilians accused of being "communist." The CIA supplies the names of countless suspects.

Dominican Republic - A popular rebellion breaks out, promising to reinstall Juan Bosch as the country's elected leader. The revolution is crushed when U.S. Marines land to uphold the military regime by force. The CIA directs everything behind the scenes.

Greece - With the CIA's backing, the king removes George Papandreous as prime minister. Papandreous has failed to vigorously support U.S. interests in Greece.

Congo (Zaire) - A CIA-backed military coup installs Mobutu Sese Seko as dictator. The hated and repressive Mobutu exploits his desperately poor country for billions.

1966

The Ramparts Affair - The radical magazine Ramparts begins a series of unprecedented anti-CIA articles. Among their scoops: the CIA has paid the University of Michigan $25 million dollars to hire "professors" to train South Vietnamese students in covert police methods. MIT and other universities have received similar payments. Ramparts also reveals that the National Students' Association is a CIA front. Students are sometimes recruited through blackmail and bribery, including draft deferments.

1967

Greece - A CIA-backed military coup overthrows the government two days before the elections. The favorite to win was George Papandreous, the liberal candidate. During the next six years, the "reign of the colonels" - backed by the CIA - will usher in the widespread use of torture and murder against political opponents. When a Greek ambassador objects to President Johnson about U.S. plans for Cypress, Johnson tells him: "Fuck your parliament and your constitution."

Operation PHEONIX - The CIA helps South Vietnamese agents identify and then murder alleged Viet Cong leaders operating in South Vietnamese villages. According to a 1971 congressional report, this operation killed about 20,000 "Viet Cong."

1968

Operation CHAOS - The CIA has been illegally spying on American citizens since 1959, but with Operation CHAOS, President Johnson dramatically boosts the effort. CIA agents go undercover as student radicals to spy on and disrupt campus organizations protesting the Vietnam War. They are searching for Russian instigators, which they never find. CHAOS will eventually spy on 7,000 individuals and 1,000 organizations.

Bolivia - A CIA-organized military operation captures legendary guerilla Che Guevara. The CIA wants to keep him alive for interrogation, but the Bolivian government executes him to prevent worldwide calls for clemency.

1969

Uruguay - The notorious CIA torturer Dan Mitrione arrives in Uruguay, a country torn with political strife. Whereas right-wing forces previously used torture only as a last resort, Mitrione convinces them to use it as a routine, widespread practice. "The precise pain, in the precise place, in the precise amount, for the desired effect," is his motto. The torture techniques he teaches to the death squads rival the Nazis'. He eventually becomes so feared that revolutionaries will kidnap and murder him a year later.

1970

Cambodia - The CIA overthrows Prince Sahounek, who is highly popular among Cambodians for keeping them out of the Vietnam War. He is replaced by CIA puppet Lon Nol, who immediately throws Cambodian troops into battle. This unpopular move strengthens once minor opposition parties like the Khmer Rouge, which achieves power in 1975 and massacres millions of its own people.

1971

Bolivia - After half a decade of CIA-inspired political turmoil, a CIA-backed military coup overthrows the leftist President Juan Torres. In the next two years, dictator Hugo Banzer will have over 2,000 political opponents arrested without trial, then tortured, raped and executed.

Haiti - "Papa Doc" Duvalier dies, leaving his 19-year old son "Baby Doc" Duvalier the dictator of Haiti. His son continues his bloody reign with full knowledge of the CIA.

(continued next post)
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 21, 2006, 09:48:12 am
(continuing from previous post)

1972

The Case-Zablocki Act - Congress passes an act requiring congressional review of executive agreements. In theory, this should make CIA operations more accountable. In fact, it is only marginally effective.

Cambodia - Congress votes to cut off CIA funds for its secret war in Cambodia.

Wagergate Break-in - President Nixon sends in a team of burglars to wiretap Democratic offices at Watergate. The team members have extensive CIA histories, including James McCord, E. Howard Hunt and five of the Cuban burglars. They work for the Committee to Reelect the President (CREEP), which does dirty work like disrupting Democratic campaigns and laundering Nixon's illegal campaign contributions. CREEP's activities are funded and organized by another CIA front, the Mullen Company.

1973

Chile - The CIA overthrows and assassinates Salvador Allende, Latin America's first democratically elected socialist leader. The problems begin when Allende nationalizes American-owned firms in Chile. ITT offers the CIA $1 million for a coup (reportedly refused). The CIA replaces Allende with General Augusto Pinochet, who will torture and murder thousands of his own countrymen in a crackdown on labor leaders and the political left.

CIA begins internal investigations - William Colby, the Deputy Director for Operations, orders all CIA personnel to report any and all illegal activities they know about. This information is later reported to Congress.

Watergate Scandal - The CIA's main collaborating newspaper in America, The Washington Post, reports Nixon's crimes long before any other newspaper takes up the subject. The two reporters, Woodward and Bernstein, make almost no mention of the CIA's many fingerprints all over the scandal. It is later revealed that Woodward was a Naval intelligence briefer to the White House, and knows many important intelligence figures, including General Alexander Haig. His main source, "Deep Throat," is probably one of those.

CIA Director Helms Fired - President Nixon fires CIA Director Richard Helms for failing to help cover up the Watergate scandal. Helms and Nixon have always disliked each other. The new CIA director is William Colby, who is relatively more open to CIA reform.

1974

CHAOS exposed - Pulitzer prize winning journalist Seymour Hersh publishes a story about Operation CHAOS, the domestic surveillance and infiltration of anti-war and civil rights groups in the U.S. The story sparks national outrage.

Angleton fired - Congress holds hearings on the illegal domestic spying efforts of James Jesus Angleton, the CIA's chief of counterintelligence. His efforts included mail-opening campaigns and secret surveillance of war protesters. The hearings result in his dismissal from the CIA.

House clears CIA in Watergate - The House of Representatives clears the CIA of any complicity in Nixon's Watergate break-in.

The Hughes Ryan Act - Congress passes an amendment requiring the president to report nonintelligence CIA operations to the relevant congressional committees in a timely fashion.

1975

Australia - The CIA helps topple the democratically elected, left-leaning government of Prime Minister Edward Whitlam. The CIA does this by giving an ultimatum to its Governor-General, John Kerr. Kerr, a longtime CIA collaborator, exercises his constitutional right to dissolve the Whitlam government. The Governor-General is a largely ceremonial position appointed by the Queen; the Prime Minister is democratically elected. The use of this archaic and never-used law stuns the nation.

Angola - Eager to demonstrate American military resolve after its defeat in Vietnam, Henry Kissinger launches a CIA-backed war in Angola. Contrary to Kissinger's assertions, Angola is a country of little strategic importance and not seriously threatened by communism. The CIA backs the brutal leader of UNITAS, Jonas Savimbi. This polarizes Angolan politics and drives his opponents into the arms of Cuba and the Soviet Union for survival. Congress will cut off funds in 1976, but the CIA is able to run the war off the books until 1984, when funding is legalized again. This entirely pointless war kills over 300,000 Angolans.

"The CIA and the Cult of Intelligence" - Victor Marchetti and John Marks publish this whistle-blowing history of CIA crimes and abuses. Marchetti has spent 14 years in the CIA, eventually becoming an executive assistant to the Deputy Director of Intelligence. Marks has spent five years as an intelligence official in the State Department.

"Inside the Company" - Philip Agee publishes a diary of his life inside the CIA. Agee has worked in covert operations in Latin America during the 60s, and details the crimes in which he took part.

Congress investigates CIA wrong-doing - Public outrage compels Congress to hold hearings on CIA crimes. Senator Frank Church heads the Senate investigation ("The Church Committee"), and Representative Otis Pike heads the House investigation. (Despite a 98 percent incumbency reelection rate, both Church and Pike are defeated in the next elections.) The investigations lead to a number of reforms intended to increase the CIA's accountability to Congress, including the creation of a standing Senate committee on intelligence. However, the reforms prove ineffective, as the Iran/Contra scandal will show. It turns out the CIA can control, deal with or sidestep Congress with ease.

The Rockefeller Commission - In an attempt to reduce the damage done by the Church Committee, President Ford creates the "Rockefeller Commission" to whitewash CIA history and propose toothless reforms. The commission's namesake, Vice President Nelson Rockefeller, is himself a major CIA figure. Five of the commission's eight members are also members of the Council on Foreign Relations, a CIA-dominated organization.

1979

Iran - The CIA fails to predict the fall of the Shah of Iran, a longtime CIA puppet, and the rise of Muslim fundamentalists who are furious at the CIA's backing of SAVAK, the Shah's bloodthirsty secret police. In revenge, the Muslims take 52 Americans hostage in the U.S. embassy in Tehran.

Afghanistan - The Soviets invade Afghanistan. The CIA immediately begins supplying arms to any faction willing to fight the occupying Soviets. Such indiscriminate arming means that when the Soviets leave Afghanistan, civil war will erupt. Also, fanatical Muslim extremists now possess state-of-the-art weaponry. One of these is Sheik Abdel Rahman, who will become involved in the World Trade Center bombing in New York.

El Salvador - An idealistic group of young military officers, repulsed by the massacre of the poor, overthrows the right-wing government. However, the U.S. compels the inexperienced officers to include many of the old guard in key positions in their new government. Soon, things are back to "normal" - the military government is repressing and killing poor civilian protesters. Many of the young military and civilian reformers, finding themselves powerless, resign in disgust.

Nicaragua - Anastasios Samoza II, the CIA-backed dictator, falls. The Marxist Sandinistas take over government, and they are initially popular because of their commitment to land and anti-poverty reform. Samoza had a murderous and hated personal army called the National Guard. Remnants of the Guard will become the Contras, who fight a CIA-backed guerilla war against the Sandinista government throughout the 1980s.

1980

El Salvador - The Archbishop of San Salvador, Oscar Romero, pleads with President Carter "Christian to Christian" to stop aiding the military government slaughtering his people. Carter refuses. Shortly afterwards, right-wing leader Roberto D'Aubuisson has Romero shot through the heart while saying Mass. The country soon dissolves into civil war, with the peasants in the hills fighting against the military government. The CIA and U.S. Armed Forces supply the government with overwhelming military and intelligence superiority. CIA-trained death squads roam the countryside, committing atrocities like that of El Mazote in 1982, where they massacre between 700 and 1000 men, women and children. By 1992, some 63,000 Salvadorans will be killed.

1981

Iran/Contra Begins - The CIA begins selling arms to Iran at high prices, using the profits to arm the Contras fighting the Sandinista government in Nicaragua. President Reagan vows that the Sandinistas will be "pressured" until "they say 'uncle.'" The CIA's Freedom Fighter's Manual disbursed to the Contras includes instruction on economic sabotage, propaganda, extortion, bribery, blackmail, interrogation, torture, murder and political assassination.

1983

Honduras - The CIA gives Honduran military officers the Human Resource Exploitation Training Manual - 1983, which teaches how to torture people. Honduras' notorious "Battalion 316" then uses these techniques, with the CIA's full knowledge, on thousands of leftist dissidents. At least 184 are murdered.

1984

The Boland Amendment - The last of a series of Boland Amendments is passed. These amendments have reduced CIA aid to the Contras; the last one cuts it off completely. However, CIA Director William Casey is already prepared to "hand off" the operation to Colonel Oliver North, who illegally continues supplying the Contras through the CIA's informal, secret, and self-financing network. This includes "humanitarian aid" donated by Adolph Coors and William Simon, and military aid funded by Iranian arms sales.

1986

Eugene Hasenfus - Nicaragua shoots down a C-123 transport plane carrying military supplies to the Contras. The lone survivor, Eugene Hasenfus, turns out to be a CIA employee, as are the two dead pilots. The airplane belongs to Southern Air Transport, a CIA front. The incident makes a mockery of President Reagan's claims that the CIA is not illegally arming the Contras.

Iran/Contra Scandal - Although the details have long been known, the Iran/Contra scandal finally captures the media's attention in 1986. Congress holds hearings, and several key figures (like Oliver North) lie under oath to protect the intelligence community. CIA Director William Casey dies of brain cancer before Congress can question him. All reforms enacted by Congress after the scandal are purely cosmetic.

Haiti - Rising popular revolt in Haiti means that "Baby Doc" Duvalier will remain "President for Life" only if he has a short one. The U.S., which hates instability in a puppet country, flies the despotic Duvalier to the South of France for a comfortable retirement. The CIA then rigs the upcoming elections in favor of another right-wing military strongman. However, violence keeps the country in political turmoil for another four years. The CIA tries to strengthen the military by creating the National Intelligence Service (SIN), which suppresses popular revolt through torture and assassination.

1989

Panama - The U.S. invades Panama to overthrow a dictator of its own making, General Manuel Noriega. Noriega has been on the CIA's payroll since 1966, and has been transporting drugs with the CIA's knowledge since 1972. By the late 80s, Noriega's growing independence and intransigence have angered Washington? so out he goes.

1990

Haiti - Competing against 10 comparatively wealthy candidates, leftist priest Jean-Bertrand Aristide captures 68 percent of the vote. After only eight months in power, however, the CIA-backed military deposes him. More military dictators brutalize the country, as thousands of Haitian refugees escape the turmoil in barely seaworthy boats. As popular opinion calls for Aristide's return, the CIA begins a disinformation campaign painting the courageous priest as mentally unstable.

1991

The Gulf War - The U.S. liberates Kuwait from Iraq. But Iraq's dictator, Saddam Hussein, is another creature of the CIA. With U.S. encouragement, Hussein invaded Iran in 1980. During this costly eight-year war, the CIA built up Hussein's forces with sophisticated arms, intelligence, training and financial backing. This cemented Hussein's power at home, allowing him to crush the many internal rebellions that erupted from time to time, sometimes with poison gas. It also gave him all the military might he needed to conduct further adventurism - in Kuwait, for example.

The Fall of the Soviet Union - The CIA fails to predict this most important event of the Cold War. This suggests that it has been so busy undermining governments that it hasn't been doing its primary job: gathering and analyzing information. The fall of the Soviet Union also robs the CIA of its reason for existence: fighting communism. This leads some to accuse the CIA of intentionally failing to predict the downfall of the Soviet Union. Curiously, the intelligence community's budget is not significantly reduced after the demise of communism.

1992

Economic Espionage - In the years following the end of the Cold War, the CIA is increasingly used for economic espionage. This involves stealing the technological secrets of competing foreign companies and giving them to American ones. Given the CIA's clear preference for dirty tricks over mere information gathering, the possibility of serious criminal behavior is very great indeed.

1993

Haiti - The chaos in Haiti grows so bad that President Clinton has no choice but to remove the Haitian military dictator, Raoul Cedras, on threat of U.S. invasion. The U.S. occupiers do not arrest Haiti's military leaders for crimes against humanity, but instead ensure their safety and rich retirements. Aristide is returned to power only after being forced to accept an agenda favorable to the country's ruling class.

EPILOGUE

In a speech before the CIA celebrating its 50th anniversary, President Clinton said: "By necessity, the American people will never know the full story of your courage."

Clinton's is a common defense of the CIA: namely, the American people should stop criticizing the CIA because they don't know what it really does. This, of course, is the heart of the problem in the first place. An agency that is above criticism is also above moral behavior and reform. Its secrecy and lack of accountability allows its corruption to grow unchecked.

Furthermore, Clinton's statement is simply untrue. The history of the agency is growing painfully clear, especially with the declassification of historical CIA documents. We may not know the details of specific operations, but we do know, quite well, the general behavior of the CIA. These facts began emerging nearly two decades ago at an ever-quickening pace. Today we have a remarkably accurate and consistent picture, repeated in country after country, and verified from countless different directions.

The CIA's response to this growing knowledge and criticism follows a typical historical pattern. (Indeed, there are remarkable parallels to the Medieval Church's fight against the Scientific Revolution.) The first journalists and writers to reveal the CIA's criminal behavior were harassed and censored if they were American writers, and tortured and murdered if they were foreigners. (See Philip Agee's On the Run for an example of early harassment.) However, over the last two decades the tide of evidence has become overwhelming, and the CIA has found that it does not have enough fingers to plug every hole in the dike. This is especially true in the age of the Internet, where information flows freely among millions of people. Since censorship is impossible, the Agency must now defend itself with apologetics. Clinton's "Americans will never know" defense is a prime example.

Another common apologetic is that "the world is filled with unsavory characters, and we must deal with them if we are to protect American interests at all." There are two things wrong with this. First, it ignores the fact that the CIA has regularly spurned alliances with defenders of democracy, free speech and human rights, preferring the company of military dictators and tyrants. The CIA had moral options available to them, but did not take them.

Second, this argument begs several questions. The first is: "Which American interests?" The CIA has courted right-wing dictators because they allow wealthy Americans to exploit the country's cheap labor and resources. But poor and middle-class Americans pay the price whenever they fight the wars that stem from CIA actions, from Vietnam to the Gulf War to Panama. The second begged question is: "Why should American interests come at the expense of other peoples' human rights?"

The CIA should be abolished, its leadership dismissed and its relevant members tried for crimes against humanity. Our intelligence community should be rebuilt from the ground up, with the goal of collecting and analyzing information. As for covert action, there are two moral options. The first one is to eliminate covert action completely. But this gives jitters to people worried about the Adolf Hitlers of the world. So a second option is that we can place covert action under extensive and true democratic oversight. For example, a bipartisan Congressional Committee of 40 members could review and veto all aspects of CIA operations upon a majority or super-majority vote. Which of these two options is best may be the subject of debate, but one thing is clear: like dictatorship, like monarchy, unaccountable covert operations should die like the dinosaurs they are.

~

end--

article found here:

http://www.korpios.org/resurgent/CIAtimeline.html
Note: We either have a constitution or we do not have a constitution. If we have a constitution then that government created and regulated by that constitution must be held accountable for its actions; else, we're living a lie to the world. The world beyond our borders knows this. Thus far, the American public does not know this. Why? Because this imposter national government lies to its people, to you and to me.

~

end article from TMM.
Salute!
Elias

Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 21, 2006, 10:43:12 am
We see from reading the above posts that one of the more powerful creations of the National Security Act of 1947, the CIA, has long operated in total secrecy. We see that that veil of secrecy has permitted unscrupulous men in seats of power to commit major crimes against the American people and against the constitutional Republic of the United States of America. We see that many of the CIA's activities have generated something called "blowback", whereby the subjects of CIA crimes have resented the CIA's involvement in their nations' internal affairs and have nurtured therefore a resentment against not only the CIA, but also against the American people themselves. In other words, CIA has, either wittingly or unwittingly, literally created anti-American hatred in many parts of the world.

A prime matter of concern here is that the CIA has been allowed to commit horrendous crimes all over the world without having to notify the American government's oversight body, the U.S. Congress. When caught or exposed for blatant lying, blatant criminality such as importing countless tons of cocaine into America, blatant arming of Iran, blatant creation of al Qaeda's predecessor the Mujahedeen in Afghanistan, the CIA always is afforded some way of getting off the hook.

Thankfully, we've from time to time had men of conscience inside CIA who have come forward to the American public and announced the CIA's crimes. Such honorable men include John Stockwell, Victor Marchetti, and lately, a very wonderful gentleman named Ray McGovern - who founded "Veteran Intelligence Professionals For Sanity".
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Raymond_McGovern

My main point is that under the veil of secrecy, representatives of the U.S. government can do anything and expect to get away with it under a guise called "plausible deniability".  One primary example of this is the Bay of Pigs fiasco, which blew up in Kennedy's face and forced him to lie to the world - after which he was caught in that lie. Getting caught that way so infuriated Kennedy that he felt compelled to launch a Congressional investigation of the Bay of Pigs, after which he fired Allen Dulles from his seat atop the CIA (DCI - Director of Central Intelligence). While we may never know, and despite the fact that two other very significant reasons exist as potential motives for the assassination of JFK, we may guess that firing Allen Dulles, who himself had helped create the CIA under Truman's watch, may have been one of the causes which involved the CIA in the JFK assassination. Note to dgg9 - I am not stating that the CIA assassinated JFK, but am asserting that the possibility, and motive, exists, and that future investigations are thereby called for. However, any way we shake it down, for a sitting U.S. President to authorize the training of a secret army with the express goal of invading a foreign, sovereign nation-state represents a gross criminal intent followed by a gross criminal act. It was in full knowledge that the entire program to invade Cuba secretly was highly illegal and immoral that Kennedy at first lied about the invasion and America's role in that invasion, and subsequently felt forced to hold the investigations into the deed, and subsequently felt inspired to fire Allen Dulles in an effort to save his (JFK's) "face".

The Bay of Pigs is but one of many examples which reveal a berserk, out-of-control, highly-secret "shadow government" which operates and functions in many illegal ways against American and international law. The existence of that shadow government came to light, barely, during the Iran-Contra-Mena hearings by the U.S. Senate, but was qiuckly washed over by the Committee Chairman.

The reality is that if we the people allow a "secret" cabal of men in seats of government power to withhold its actions from public scrutiny, we are likely to get just what we've now got - a burgeoning police state which is being designed to support the American Empire, just as the European bankers have planned for the consolidation of their one-world government. Hence, the secret arm of the shadow government is a Player for the New World Order which hides behind a false legitimacy named "National Security".

Guessing that I'm preaching to the choir here, I'll move along with other points mentioned previously enroute to getting to the nitty-gritty of 911, but also I will welcome any discussion on the CIA's role in the shadow government's activity and other related secret activities of the USG.

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on April 21, 2006, 08:53:14 pm
I typed this up and sat on it for a while. I wasn't sure I wanted to keep this going, but I'm-ah-gonna-do-it.

I said this
...
I am perfectly willing to stipulate that you can transmit high frequency signals up to a small section of the ionosphere and change some of its properties (for as long as the wave is transmitting).
...

...
I am perfectly willing to stipulate that you can transmit high frequency signals up to a small section of the ionosphere and change some of its properties (for as long as the wave is transmitting).  That's fine.  However, if you want to change a significant area -- an area a million times larger -- then you need a million times as much energy.
...


2. POTENTIAL APPLICATIONS
2.1. Geophysical Probing
2.2. Generation of ELF/VLF Waves

...

The Soviets, operating at higher powers than the West, now have claimed significant stimulated ionization by electron-impact ionization. The claim is that HF energy, via wave-particle interaction, accelerates ionospheric electrons to energies well in excess of 20 electron volts (eV) so that they will ionize neutral atmospheric particles with which they collide. Given that the Soviet HF facilities are several times more powerful than the Western facilities at comparable mid-latitudes, and given that the latter appear to be on a threshold of a new "wave-particle" regime of phenomena, it is believed that the Soviets have crossed that threshold and are exploring a regime of phenomena still unavailable for study or application in the West.

...

It is important to realize that many different instabilities are simultaneously excited in the plasma and that one instability process can greatly influence the development of another. Studies of competition between similar types of instability processes and the interaction between dissimilar wave-plasma interactions are in the earliest stages of development.
...
The large (factor of four) enhancement in electron temperature that accompanies this phenomenon gives rise to a class of instability processes that is completely different from others observed under "normal" conditions where the ionospheric thermal balance is not greatly disrupted.
...
4.3. Scanning Capabilities

A heater that has scanning capabilities is very desirable in order to enlarge the size of heated regions in the ionosphere. Although a scanning range from vertical to very oblique (about 10 degrees above the horizon) would be desirable, engineering considerations will most likely narrow the scanning range to about 45 degrees from the vertical. The capability of rapidly scanning (microseconds time scale) in any direction, is also very desirable.
You're HF quote made me go back and look for the ELF and VLF items I had scanned (I kinda thought the L might be at the other end of the spectrum from the H). I really haven't had the chance to read the whole thing so far, just scan it.

Whilst there (page 8 of this thread) I noticed an important point. They don't know the answers to your questions. They are spending our money to research it. They have found things that elementary physics can't answer, specifically, once the effect of their actions is to make a significant change, then the effects of future actions cannot be predicted from current knowledge. But, they are trying to find out. Are we to trust that they are trying to find out only for reasons that are beneficial to you and me and Elias and LL and everyone else concerned? Or could they use this knowledge for tactics which we would not be too excited about? Do we, no matter how many of us combine our resources, have the capability to counteract any nefarious purposes materially? I had .05 in my bank account for 2 days prior to last payday.

Can we counterattack by making an extensive base of knowledge available?

and this
...
Non sequitur.  The original debate was about raising air temperature.  Try again.

Whilst I was in the crapper reading A Son of Thunder Patrick Henry and the American Public my mind wandered to this thread, this topic and this point. It hit me that the issue here is that, dgg9, you are attempting to set the terms of the discussion with those who aren't so interested in the point you have chosen. The issue is not whether physics will allow the air temperature to be raised. The issue is that those who have usurped our government are trying to figure out if they can do it. This is only a small part of their arsenal of tactics. And this is only a small part of what they might want to do with HAARP. Your desire to focus on the feasibility of heating the air to the point where the weather can be controlled totally diverts from the real issue at hand. Even if you could prove that it is not possible (and I state emphatically that you cannot, since as has been noted the effects of their actions cause a fundamental change to the atmosphere which in turn creates conditions where the results of actions taken cannot be determined from current knowledge), that is moot to the point of intent. Why you keep smacking the nail of intent with the screwdriver of feasibility is beyond me.

No matter what you might be able to prove they cannot do you cannot draw the inference from that inability to the conclusion that they are not at least attempting to do so.

Please, if your intent is to refute the theory that there is a concerted effort by those who have usurped our government to do us evil, focus on something that might lend some measure of authority to that assertion.

and dgg9 replied to all that with this
It hit me that the issue here is that, dgg9, you are attempting to set the terms of the discussion with those who aren't so interested in the point you have chosen.

Just as you are doing with me.

But that's not even true.  Someone starts a thread, then drones on at length, over a multitude of subjects, most of which don't interest me.  The topic then strays into an area I choose to reply in.  I do reply, asking a few questions.  These questions are generally evaded, with the usual ad hom thrown in, among the general smokescreen.

How is this different than ANY thread.  People on this board -- any board -- chime in and respond to the portions of a thread that interest them.  This is normal.  What is your complaint?  Are you living in some parallel universe where, all this time, the norm is that you engage 100% or 0% of any Internet thread?

Quote
The issue is not whether physics will allow the air temperature to be raised. The issue is that those who have usurped our government are trying to figure out if they can do it.

No.  To me, the issue is the physics and the air termperature.  If you think the real issue is the latter, then don't discuss the former.

Really, the "issue" is ANYTHING the original poster brought up as support for his argument.  It's all fair game.

Quote
This is only a small part of their arsenal of tactics.

No doubt, but that's what I chose to address.

Quote
Your desire to focus on the feasibility of heating the air to the point where the weather can be controlled totally diverts from the real issue at hand.

The "real issue" of any thread is the correctness of all statements within.

Conveniently avoiding any mention of this, "given that the latter appear to be on a threshold of a new "wave-particle" regime of phenomena, it is believed that the Soviets have crossed that threshold and are exploring a regime of phenomena still unavailable for study or application in the West.", this "The large (factor of four) enhancement in electron temperature that accompanies this phenomenon gives rise to a class of instability processes that is completely different from others observed under "normal" conditions where the ionospheric thermal balance is not greatly disrupted." and this "(and I state emphatically that you cannot, since as has been noted the effects of their actions cause a fundamental change to the atmosphere which in turn creates conditions where the results of actions taken cannot be determined from current knowledge)"

I have noticed throughout his posts that he attacks with his attitude the pieces he can pick apart and won't touch anything that negates what he says. I was very specifically addressing in those quoted sections his pontifications on the requirement of others to prove that it is possible. However, if you follow the logic in what I quoted, they don't know, and they're the ones doing the research. How could we know. In the experimentation they have noticed that once the ionospheric thermal balance has been greatly disrupted there is a new and completely different class of instability processes. In other words, it ain't as easy as he thinks. But, once again, I have to stress the fact that they are using our money to try to find out what can be done. dgg9, you keep haarping on the fact that the whole thing unravels if you can loosen one thread.

Your method
Premise 1: If I can negate any of your assumptions, I can call bullshit on the entire concept of a conspiracy by those in power.
Premise 2: You can't prove that the air can be heated enough to cause significant changes in the climate.
Conclusion: I call bull shit on the entire concept of a conspiracy by those in power.

Am I wrong in stating what I did above? If so, please correct me.

Can you state for us the principles behind what will happen when there is a large (factor of four) enhancement in electron temperature? I can't. Neither can they. They can't even model it with a Cray, because they haven't got the foggiest notion what to model. They have entered an area where they are seeing a new "wave-particle" regime of phenomena.

So, for our edification, please state your thesis regarding what it would take to prove or disprove that there is a concerted effort by some group to destroy the very foundation of individual liberty and to institute a controlling police state. What would you see as evidence that this is either a true or a false interpretation of the available facts? Would it be to simply prove that any one, individual allegation is false because it is scientifically impossible? Would it matter if that scientifically impossible thing were being attempted, anyway, by those who have shown evidence of other attempts to stifle our individual liberties?

And, if the above thesis is true, and you think you have accomplished this by telling all those here who state they are not particle physicists that what they are claiming cannot possibly be accomplished, please enlighten us with your advanced knowledge that goes beyond even that of those who are using our money to experiment in the atmosphere?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on April 21, 2006, 09:08:20 pm
The Conspiracy Theory mindset in action:

Let's say I buy a small space heater.  At 1000W, its stated purpose is to heat the air of a small room.

Conspiracy Theorist: "See!  It heats air!  The Official Version is that it heats a room, but we know it's real purpose is to change the climate of the entire neighborhood."

Sane Observer: "But it's rated for 1000W, which is something like a millionth the necessary power to heat up the entire neighborhood.  It's not even remotely possible for this device to be ABLE to do what you claim."

Conspiracy Theorist: "I have never claimed to be a scientist!  Is the space heater manufacturer's own own document BS?  I find it satisfactory evidence which supports every damned thing I've said on the subject on this thread!  Further, we know the buyer's grandfather was in the same restaurant as Prescott Bush 70 years ago, which irrefutably ties him to the Illuminati, which proves..."

...and the foam-flecked ravings continue.

Find me one person on this board who would follow this line of reasoning.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 21, 2006, 09:31:52 pm
I have noticed throughout his posts that he attacks with his attitude the pieces he can pick apart and won't touch anything that negates what he says. I was very specifically addressing in those quoted sections his pontifications on the requirement of others to prove that it is possible. However, if you follow the logic in what I quoted, they don't know, and they're the ones doing the research. How could we know.

Apples and oranges.  They're pursuing something.  The various conspiracy theories here maintain that there are nefarious plots being researched now that AREN'T what they (the "authorities") are claiming.  In short, the conspiracy theory is that they're really trying to do other things.  So when they say what they know or don't know, that refers to what they're ostensibly studying, not your theories.

Quote
In the experimentation they have noticed that once the ionospheric thermal balance has been greatly disrupted there is a new and completely different class of instability processes.

That could well be, but that has nothing to do with the earlier claim (of "heating the environment"), which is what I was addressing.  If there are theories afoot to alter weather without dumping vast amounts of energy into the ionosphere (i.e., NOT going about the brute force approach of raising the air temps of vast amounts of air) -- that could well be.  However, I addressed what was written at the time, and rather than simple answers (such as you just gave) which clarified their position, they became pissy and hysterical.  Of course, this is hardly the first thread like that.

Quote
you keep haarping on the fact that the whole thing unravels if you can loosen one thread.

Not really.  Just saying that one should choose carefully what threads you use for your conspiracy theories.  And, as is common, it doesn't seem much real work has gone into the selection, if no one but me is asking basic questions.  If, eventually, you actually find answers to those basic questions, great.  But, once again, isn't it interesting that the sequence is: embrace the theory FIRST; find supporting evidence AFTER.

Quote
Am I wrong in stating what I did above? If so, please correct me.

Yes, quite wrong.  I never said anything resembling that.  For every conclusion, there are foundational premises and evidence that are a) necessary or b) sufficient or c) neither.  Since EA has not graced us with his conclusion(*), there's no way, now, to know what premises/foundation are necessary or not.

* -- unless it's in the recent set of emitted posts, which I haven't bothered to read.

Quote
So, for our edification, please state your thesis regarding what it would take to prove or disprove that there is a concerted effort by some group to destroy the very foundation of individual liberty and to institute a controlling police state. What would you see as evidence that this is either a true or a false interpretation of the available facts?

I tend not to think in terms of over-arching conspiracy theories to begin with.  IMO, the need for some sinister cabal of James Bond like villains is the perceived need for there to be a Devil, i.e., the need is essentially religious in nature.  Just as Man invents God in order to feel more important about his place in the universe, so man invents the Devil, to likewise feel important.

I simply don't see reality that way.  When I open my eyes and look, I see venal, stupid politicians, always thinking in the short term, driven by the next election.  I don't see the diamond-hard dedication, the supreme competence, and the ruthless persistence to follow a grand scheme for power over the course of decades, where the scheme transcends countries, and administrations within countries, and where so many people have to be in on it and no one ever says anything.  Politicians are not that skillful and disciplined, and when people arrange themselves in groups, the aggregate IQ shrinks as the group size increases.

I tend to believe what I see.  I don't see, anywhere, the ability, dedication, persistence, and skill to maintain a conspiracy of any real magnitude over the generations.

What do I see?  I see the banality of evil.  I see people freely trading in liberty for security.  I see politicians with statist impulses grabbing those liberties because it matches their ideology.  I see Public Choice Theory + the Welfare State + the inherent nature/behavior of bureaucracies = inevitable downslope away from freedom.  But no one is steering.  Rather, the incentives that are in place -- human nature, democracy, the welfare state -- present what amounts to a downward slope, and the random motions of society slide down the incline.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 21, 2006, 09:33:32 pm
Find me one person on this board who would follow this line of reasoning.

It's quite evident from the goal post shifting displayed in the various 9/11 conspiracy theory threads.  Clearly, it didn't matter exactly which conspiracy theory variant resulted -- they just wanted SOME theory to be true.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Leonidas the Younger on April 21, 2006, 09:54:28 pm
Quote
... you keep haarping on ...

Please, PLEASE, tell me that was just a typo and NOT an intentional pun .. please ...

-- Leonidas
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on April 21, 2006, 09:57:10 pm
Find me one person on this board who would follow this line of reasoning.

It's quite evident from the goal post shifting displayed in the various 9/11 conspiracy theory threads.  Clearly, it didn't matter exactly which conspiracy theory variant resulted -- they just wanted SOME theory to be true.

So, which one person was it? I didn't see any names mentioned. I, personally, would not follow that line of reasoning.

Anyone else? Any takers for the 1000 watt space heater / experimenting to change the climate of the entire neighborhood?

...
But, once again, isn't it interesting that the sequence is: embrace the theory FIRST; find supporting evidence AFTER.
...
Not my sequence at all. I had to look at a very large volume of evidence before I was convinced that there was something afoot. I really didn't want to face the fact that there was a possibility that some group did not have my best interests at heart.

It is not a matter of "the devil" with me. There is a psychology involved in those who desire a dynasty. You can wave that away if you like. You can see whatever you choose to see as can the rest of us. I hope I'm wrong. I'm glad you try to point out that I'm wrong. Maybe there is hope that there is no dynastic desire among sociopathic families to maintain power over the rest of us. But from what I see that is not the case.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on April 21, 2006, 09:57:46 pm
Quote
... you keep haarping on ...

Please, PLEASE, tell me that was just a typo and NOT an intentional pun .. please ...

-- Leonidas

 :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 21, 2006, 10:03:45 pm
So, which one person was it? I didn't see any names mentioned.

I'm not going to get into naming names.

Quote
It is not a matter of "the devil" with me. There is a psychology involved in those who desire a dynasty. You can wave that away if you like. You can see whatever you choose to see as can the rest of us. I hope I'm wrong. I'm glad you try to point out that I'm wrong. Maybe there is hope that there is no dynastic desire among sociopathic families to maintain power over the rest of us. But from what I see that is not the case.

Do you really think GWB has ANY of the skills, dedication, and rigid determination necessary to maintain this cabal?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 21, 2006, 10:07:29 pm
It is not a matter of "the devil" with me. There is a psychology involved in those who desire a dynasty. You can wave that away if you like. You can see whatever you choose to see as can the rest of us. I hope I'm wrong. I'm glad you try to point out that I'm wrong. Maybe there is hope that there is no dynastic desire among sociopathic families to maintain power over the rest of us. But from what I see that is not the case.

Let me approach this from another angle.  Regardless of what dynastic conspiracy you suspect, you'll never be able to prove anything.  Whether that's because "they" are too clever and ruthless or whether "they" don't exist actually doesn't matter.

Why?  Let's say for the sake of argument there IS some over-arching conspiracy.  What are you going to do about it?  In what way will you live your life differently?  If the Devil exists, what do you do about it?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 22, 2006, 12:12:36 am
So, which one person was it? I didn't see any names mentioned.

I'm not going to get into naming names.

Quote
It is not a matter of "the devil" with me. There is a psychology involved in those who desire a dynasty. You can wave that away if you like. You can see whatever you choose to see as can the rest of us. I hope I'm wrong. I'm glad you try to point out that I'm wrong. Maybe there is hope that there is no dynastic desire among sociopathic families to maintain power over the rest of us. But from what I see that is not the case.

Do you really think GWB has ANY of the skills, dedication, and rigid determination necessary to maintain this cabal?

I wonder what makes you think that I think that Bush is running the show? I'm in full agreement with you on this. He possesses none of the "skills, dedication, and rigid determination necessary" to run this show. Hell, the man can't even speak in public without being wired so that he can receive transmitted  proper answers by his handlers back-stage for quiestions fielded from the audience.

And in fact, to further prove your point, Bush has committed a number of major errors in the playing of his role. Two of those errors are on the White House website, which I'll link for you presently. Have you ever  noticed that outline of a  rectangular box bulging from under the back-center of his suit coat? Bush is a mere puppet-head, a figure-head (as Webster Tarpley calls it), a face put forth to fill an imagined and falsely-perceived role of authority, same as every President since Woodrow Wilson has been. Cheney and his cabal of neo-cons from the PNAC have more power in the White House than Bush, and as you shall see if you continue to read this thread, even the Cheney-Wolfowitz-Rumsfeld-Libby-Rove-Rice cabal bows to the will and command of some higher authority. Don't be so impatient, dgg9 - I'm getting to the good part of this thread as quickly as I can, given the added turbulence of your shifts and parries.

About those errors I mentioned above, the errors which Bush made - I'll just toss them in here ahead of my scheduled approach for developing this thread, and you can see for yourself how truly incompetent Bush is. Trusting that your computer has speakers and can play for your amusement a few seconds of audio, please go here and listen to our illustrious President implicate himself: (go ahead and listen to this - it's only a few seconds long - and then you can come right back here and resume activity on the thread)

http://www.911blimp.net/aud_BushImplicatesBush.shtml

Assuming that your computer played the same extraction from that speech as did mine, I feel that you and I both must agree that George Walker Bush said that he was sitting outside that classroom (on the morning of 911) waiting to go in, when he saw the first plane hit the first tower. He says that the "tv was obviously on".  He talks about his personal reaction to having seen that first plane hit the first tower, noting to himself that that pilot must be a really lousy pilot.  He then states that later Andy Card comes into that classroom and tells him that a second plane had hit the other tower.

So far, so good. But - there is one slight problem: that first plane hitting the first tower was not on television that morning. In fact, the only known footage of that event was still in the camera of the two French journalists who chanced that morning to be in NYC filming a documentary on the Fire Department of New York. Standing outside interviewing a fireman, the journalists' cameraman heard the low-flying aircraft passing overhead, turned his camera upward, and caught the only known footage of that plane hitting the first tower. So the question we all must ask ourselves is: how did George Walker Bush see that first plane hit the first tower if it was not broadcast over television, especially when the man states that "the tv was obviously on"? 

I spent about a year wondering why Bush would lie about having seen that impossible broadcast, but one day the facts came to me and I instantly understood that George Walker Bush was not lying about having seen that first flight hit the first tower on the morning of 911, before he entered that classroom. The man was not lying at all. He was being very stupid, but he was not lying. Bush did indeed see that first plane hit the first tower - on a CIA/Secret Service closed-circuit broadcast which was transmitting in "real-time" on PROMIS software that morning, and which was being broadcast to the President of the United States of America, real-time, from New York City.

Why is it a problem that he said that? Simple -

It shows the world that he was plugged into a Secret-Service/CIA "real-time" command and control and communications network using PROMIS software which was indigenous to the wargame drills which were proceeding that morning under Dick Cheney's command (per the May 08, 2001, White House press-release announcing Cheney's new command over all "consequence management exercises).  Bush's stupid slip of the tongue in front of a live audience in a speech which was televised and recorded for the record, verifies that Michael Ruppert's charge regarding the ongoing presence of multiple "war-game drills" (consequence management exercises) on the morning of 911, and it verifies that the Secret Service / CIA broadcast network included the Presidential  procession through the streets of that Florida town where he was to speak and provide a photo-op at the school.

I'm sure that by now you are having trouble believing that audio tape you just listened to, so I'll offer you the transcript from the White House website, where you can read his statement word for word just as it is spoken on that audio clip above.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/12/text/20011204-17.html

To get to that particular part of his speech, you'll have to scroll down the White House transcript to very close to the bottom, and there you shall find the statement.  Here, for emphasis, is that portion of his speech -

~Begin excerpt from White House transcript of G.W. Bush December 04, 2001 Florida speech:

 THE PRESIDENT:  Thank you, Jordan.  Well, Jordan, you're not going to believe what state I was in when I heard about the terrorist attack.  I was in Florida.  And my Chief of Staff, Andy Card -- actually, I was in a classroom talking about a reading program that works.  I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower -- the TV was obviously on.  And I used to fly, myself, and I said, well, there's one terrible pilot.  I said, it must have been a horrible accident.

But I was whisked off there, I didn't have much time to think about it.  And I was sitting in the classroom, and Andy Card, my Chief of Staff, who is sitting over here, walked in and said, "A second plane has hit the tower, America is under attack."

~End excerpt from G.W. Bush December 04, 2001 Florida speech.

And in fact, if you go back to that page which I linked first above and read down that page, you'll come to a second public speech in which George Walker Bush states before a live audience that he saw that first plane hit the first tower.

With those two slip-ups in public speeches after 911, George Walker Bush verified that the Secret Service/CIA transmission was in fact at his disposal in his Presidential caravan that morning, and that the Secret Service / CIA wargame drills were being monitored not only by certain namable people at NORAD and the Pentagon and the 23rd floor of Building WTC-7, but also by Mr. Bush. Hell, the man was not lying at all, much to my surprise. And I'm damn glad he spoke the truth - twice! :)

Of course, you'll likely wave all this off as irrevelant to my conspiracy theory, but you'll have to admit that it backs up what you noted about Bush's incompetence, a point you chance to share with me, and I with you. The man is incompetent, cannot think on his feet, is a first-rate fool with a thirst for false-glory and power, and that only serves to enhance my conspiracy theory. Please note that I have never said that George Walker Bush was in charge of any conspiracy - that is an assumption you implied in your post, as quoted above - I did not say that - you implied it. Until you have seen my entire case, it would be wise of you to not run off on your legendary tangents and presume things I have not said. For some ungodly reason, you seem to lump me in with what James Meigs at Popular Mechanics has dubbed "a rising army of conspiracy theorists". I'm not like anything you've encountered in conspiracy-theory circles before. In fact, I'm a damned war veteran who volunteered to serve his country in Vietnam, a peaceful and practical-minded ex-businessman and succsesful artist whose kids are grown and successful and who has owned a corporation.  I shut down my last retail-to-the-public business to move to Montana to fight for truth regarding the criminality of the idiots who've taken over the U.S. Federal governmentand are using the people's public offices to enslave America and take this great nation into the one-world government which is governed presently by the owners of the Bank of International Settlements in Basle, Switzerland, as noted on the first page of this thread. For several years now I've deliberately dwelt in a poverty-level lifestyle for the purpose of detaching myself from the mass-mind-wash and programming which afflicts most Americans, as it had even myself for too many years prior to my "wake-up call".  While you enjoy lumping me into the cubby-holed view of all "conspiracy-theory nuts", you're likely to find yourself exposed to material and information which even you cannot deny - just stick around on this thread. My method may strike you as being too slow, cumbersome, and cluttered with seemingly-unrelated data, info, and history, but I assure you that this thread shall finally show you the value in taking the pains to erect the proper perspective for the final understanding and visualizing of my conspiracy theory. If I am never able to inspire you to realize what I know and can show, at least in the process of my efforts to allay all of your doubts the thread's many other readers shall have no trouble following the development to a conclusion very close to my own. I feel pretty confident about that.

Meanwhile, I suggest you weigh your every thought and impulse,  regarding just which way to attempt to distract this thread next - your attempt above, to associate my conspiracy theory with those common and uninformed people who think "Bush did it!", has backfired in your face and given me an opportunity to erase other misconceptions about my theory which you've attempted to install on this thread. The more you try to shift and spin, to evade and equivocate, the more worms I'm gonna drag out of your can and hang them up here for all to see.

The "conspiracy theory" is that Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda planned and executed the attacks of 911 without any significant assistance form namable people sitting in seats of the U.S. Federal government.

Note of thanks: The owner of that site, 911Blimp, is a nice man named Dave. Dave sent me this information almost two years ago. Thanks, Dave. :)

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on April 22, 2006, 12:47:14 am
Has this Complete 911 Timeline (http://cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&before_9/11=ableDanger) been linked to in either of the CT threads (I just don't have time to search it out)? I got there from Peter Lance (http://www.peterlance.com/)'s website. Which, in turn, I got to from Coast to Coast when I saw that on Monday, April 17th, George had Peter on again to discuss
Quote
9-11 Cover-Up
Investigative journalist Peter Lance discussed Iran's nuclear ambitions, the U.S. government's Able Danger program, TWA 800 cover-up, and how the murder indictment of a former FBI supervisory special agent could re-open the 9-11 investigation.

Any of you who are Streamlink members (and you know who you are) should go there and listen and copy the mp3s.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 22, 2006, 02:05:42 am

Let me approach this from another angle.  Regardless of what dynastic conspiracy you suspect, you'll never be able to prove anything.  Whether that's because "they" are too clever and ruthless or whether "they" don't exist actually doesn't matter.

Why?  Let's say for the sake of argument there IS some over-arching conspiracy.  What are you going to do about it?  In what way will you live your life differently?  If the Devil exists, what do you do about it?

Simple answer for a good question: You expose it to the light of day. :)

You see, sans the mass-brainwash and popular programming of the society at large, the goodness inside the human heart shall never tolerate criminality being done in their name, or to them. If this conspiracy of the men who are establishing a one-world government which in their view must include the United States of America are exposed for what they are, their power, which is a brand of false-power in the first place, disappears - poof!

The men behind this multi-generational conspiracy knew full-well that they needed to control the public's perception in order to direct and control the masses. On this very thread, in the earlier pages, I've placed various published statements by the NEA which state their purpose in controlling the public education. I've shown that the same tax-exempt Foundations such as Carnegie and Rockefeller and Ford have supported and funded the NEA to do just that for most of the 20th Century. I've shown onthis thread already that those same foundations are involved in the creation, management and control of the Federal Reserve which regulates the money supply in the USA. I've shown that these same names have been responsible for building the Third Reich of Hitler and arming Hitler for World War II. I've shown that these same men were involved in the Crash of '29 on Wall Street, and that their manipulation of the money supply via the Fed's discount window deepened the ensuing Great Depression which put the common man at the mercy and disposal of Presidents who sold them a line of lies about every war the USA was dragged into across the 20th Century. I've trotted out for this thread the obscured fact that Woodrow Wilson, the Carnegie Foundation For International Peace, and Wall Street "interests" literally funded and brought to power the victors of the Bolshevik Revolution, thereby creating the world's first Communist state. To keep things as brief as possible, I've culled massive amounts of history which reside here in my personal files and book collection, but which are available to anyone seeking the truth about how America has been turned into what we're witnessing today.  I've included Cecil Rhodes will and testament of 1877, which calls for the creation of his infamous Round Table groups, from whence came the CFR and the Royal Institute For International Affairs, which led to the Trilateral Commission and which are peopled by board members sitting on the boards of the Carnegie, Ford, and Rockefeller tax-exempt Foundations (and other similar ilk). I've not shown clearly, but have hinted about Leo Strauss at the University of Chicago, who's writings and teachings so affected the neo-con cabal which comprises the Bush 43 Administration and which created in response to Zbigniew Brezinski's "The Grand Chessboard" the PNAC.  More recently, I've shown the sordid sickness of the National Security State, created by CFR pro-Nazi big-wig statecrafters for Truman. The dots start connecting up more and more readily as one absorbs more and more of the hidden history, that history which the CFR-dominated mass media and the Foundation-funded NEA have censored from public awareness.  I'm trying to connect-up many more dots, but I have found that the average American reader refuses to entertain information which runs contrary to what he was taught in the government schools or by the CFR-controlled media and press. It is not easy to compact all of what I know, to perfect a view which must of necessity be comprised of countless historic facts, so I've not even tried to get this put into one concise, neat, tightly-packed paragraph. If I were to try to do that, however, I'd likely come up finally with something which an insider of this conspiracy, one Carroll Quigley, has already published in his amazing tome, Tragedy And Hope  -

"[....] The Power of financial capitalism had another far reaching plan, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalistic fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the system was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basle, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks, which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank, in the hands of men like Montagu Norman of the Bank of England, Benjamin Strong of the New York Federal Reserve Bank, Charles Rist of the Bank of France, and Hjalmar Schacht of the Reichsbank, sought to dominate its government by its ability to control treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence co-operative politicians by subsequent rewards in the business world."

To refresh memories, I note that President Clinton was a Rhodes Scholar when he attended Georgetown University. Professor Carroll Quigley became Clinton's mentor. Carroll Quigley himself had a mentor, who was none other than the administrator of the Rhodes Trust and the Rhodes Scholarship Fund, one Lord Milner.  Lord Milner's mentor was Cecil Rhodes himself, and Cecil Rhodes himself had a mentor who was Lord Rothschild. That unbroken lineage from the House of Rothschild to Bill Clinton is absolute proof that power transcends any one generation, and that a nationalistic goal (as Rhodes himself put it, the British Empire) may be shared by many believers across multiple generations.

Now - the bankers who run the BIS dominate, control, manipulate the activites, and order the power-structures of all subsequently lower-stationed international financial instruments, such as the IMF/World Bank and the Federal Reserve bank, and just as Mr. Quigley  stated, they direct every thing which we find necessary in our daily lives today, from the mortgage payments for our homes, the financing of our automobiles, the structure of our credit, the rates of inflation, recessions, boom-bust financial cycles, the NYSE, the price of a carton of eggs and the costs of transporting those eggs to the grocer in your local neighborhood - everything. These people control every aspect of the life of anyone who is plugged into their system via the Social Security number and other means. The world of international finance has now, after more than a century of free-reign in an unsuspecting world of complacent people who only want to live in peace and prosperity literally engineered our wars, our peak moments of historic momentum such as the meeting at Yalta or the meeting at Dumbarton Oaks, our tragedies and travails such as the insane arms race of the Cold War superpowers - everything.

And they can only do this so long as everybody believes they would never do that. The only true power on earth which can create wealth is in your two hands, and mine, and those of all hardworking women and men. Stealing that wealth is an old trick, but a trick non-the-less. Having stolen that power, the thief must perpetuate the victim's ignorance that his power has been stolen. Mental programming and conditioning is the thief's tool. Nobody on earth knows this better than the House of Rothschild and its minions, who are scattered about the planet in key positions of "authority" from Tokyo to Berlin to London to Rome to Paris to Wall Street, USA.

One last thing about the Bush-Nazi connection - In October of 1942 Prescott Bush's Union Banking Corporation was seized by the U.S. government under the Trading With The Enemy Act. This was a number of months after the U.S. government had declared war against Germany. That little tidbit of embarrassing history shows clearly where our sitting President's grandfather's loyalties were.

And one last thing about who runs America -  from a famous Fabian Socialist, Mr. H.G. Wells, in his book, "The Open Conspiracy":

~Begin quoted passages from "The Open Conspiracy" by H.G. Wells

page 77 in:
H.G. Wells: The Open Conspiracy:

Moreover - and here again the democratic prepossessions of the nineteenth century come in - the Socialist movement sought to make every single adherent a reformer and a propagandist of economic methods. In order to do so, it was necessary to simplify economic processes to the crudity of nursery toys, and the intricate interplay of will and desire in enterprise, normal employment, and direction, in questions of ownership, wages, credit, and money, was reduced to a childish fable of surplus value wickedly appropriated. The Open Conspiracy is not so much a socialism as a more comprehensive offspring which has eaten and assimilated whatever was digestible of its socialist forebears. It turns to biology for guidance towards the regulation of quantity and a controlled distribution of the human population of the world, and it judges all the subsidiary aspects of property and pay by the criterion of most efficient production and distribution in relation to the indications thus obtained.
These economic groups, then, of the Open Conspiracy, which may come indeed to be a large part of the Open Conspiracy, will be working in that vast task of economic reconstruction - which from the point of view of the older socialism was the sole task before mankind. They will be conducting experiments and observing processes according to their opportunities. Through ad hoc societies and journals they will be comparing and examining their methods and preparing reports and clear information for the movement at large. The whole question of money and monetary methods in our modern communities, so extraordinarily disregarded in socialist literature, will be examined under the assumption that money is the token of the community's obligation, direct or indirect, to an individual, and credit its permission to deal freely with material.
The whole psychology of industry and industrial relationship needs to be revised and restated in terms of the collective efficiency and welfare of mankind. And just as far as can be contrived, the counsel and the confidences of those who now direct great industrial and financial operations will be invoked. The first special task of a banker, or a bank clerk for that matter, who joins the Open Conspiracy, will be to answer the questions: "What is a bank?" "What are you going to do about it?" "What have we to do about it?" The first questions to a manufacturer will be: "What are you making and why?" and "What are you and we to do about it?" Instead of the crude proposals to "expropriate" and "take over by the State" of the primitive socialism, the Open Conspiracy will build up an encyclopaedic conception of the modern economic complex as a labyrinthine pseudo-system progressively eliminating waste and working its way along multitudinous channels towards unity, towards clarity of purpose and method, towards abundant productivity and efficient social service.

Page 89: This gives us a large portion of the existing civilized world in which men's minds may be readjusted to the idea that their existing governments are in the position of trustees for the greater government of the coming age. Throughout these communities it is conceivable that the structural lines of the world community may be materialized and established with only minor struggles, local boycotts, vigorous public controversies, normal legislative obstruction, social pressure, and overt political activities. Police, jail, expulsions, and so forth, let alone outlawry and warfare, may scarcely be brought into this struggle upon the high civilized level of the Atlantic communities. But where they are brought in, the Open Conspiracy, to the best of its ability and the full extent of its resources, must become a fighting force and organize itself upon resistant lines.

~End quoted passages from "The Open Conspiracy" by H.G. Wells

And there is this, from the good guys' side:

Title-50 War and National Defense § 783 states - "It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to combine, conspire, or agree with any other person to perform any act which would substantially contribute to the establishment within the United States of a totalitarian dictatorship, the direction and control of which is to be vested in, or exercised by or under the domination of control of, any foreign government."

I must wonder aloud *why* anyone would write such as that into law? Could it be that whoever drafted that law figured that it was possible that someone could and might do that?

But to show it in another way, there is this:

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and the corporations which grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. I wish it were possible to obtain a single amendment to our constitution – taking from the federal government their power of borrowing.” - Thomas Jefferson

and this:

“The eyes of our citizens are not sufficiently open to the true cause of our distress. They ascribe them to everything but their true cause, the banking system; a system which if it could do good in any form is yet so certain of leading to abuse as to be utterly incompatible with the public safety and prosperity. The Central Bank is an institution of the most deadly hostility existing against the principles and form of our Constitution.” -  Thomas Jefferson

and this:

“Single acts of tyranny may be ascribed to the accidental opinion of a day; but a series of oppressions, begun at a distinguished period, and pursued unalterably through every change of ministers, too plainly prove a deliberate systematical job of reducing us to slaves.” -  Thomas Jefferson

and, more recently, this:

"The nation's immediate problem is that while the common man fights America's wars, the intellectual elite sets its agenda. Today, whether the West lives or dies is in the hands of its new power elite: those who set the terms of public debate, who manipulate the symbols, who decide whether nations or leaders will be depicted on 100 million television sets as 'good' or 'bad.' This power elite sets the limits of the possible for Presidents and Congress. It molds the impressions that move the nation, or that mire it.
--from The Real War (1980) by President Richard Nixon

and this:

"We sent Marines into Lebanon and you only have to go to Lebanon, to Syria or to Jordan to witness first-hand the intense hatred among many people for the United States because we bombed and shelled and unmercifully killed totally innocent villagers -- women and children and farmers and housewives -- in those villages around Beirut. ... As a result of that ... we became kind of a Satan in the minds of those who are deeply resentful. That is what precipitated the taking of our hostages and that is what has precipitated some of the terrorist attacks."  New York Times, March 26, 1989, p.16

more:

1913. "We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the world - no longer a Government of free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of small groups of dominant men."
President Woodrow Wilson, following the establishment of the privately owned Federal Reserve System in 1913.
 
1941. "If war aims are stated which seem to be solely concerned with Anglo-American imperialism, they will offer little to people in the rest of the world. The interests of other peoples should be stressed. This would have a better propaganda effect."
Private memo from The Council of Foreign Relations to the US State Department, 1941

and:

"The C.F.R. is the American branch of a society which originated in England. Internationalistic in viewpoint, the C.F.R., along with the Atlantic Union Movement, and the Atlantic Council of the U.S., believes national boundaries should be obliterated and one-world rule established ... What the Trilaterals truly intend is the creation of a worldwide economic power superior to the political government of the nation-states involved. As managers and creators of the system they will rule the world ... In my view, the Trilateral Commission represents a skillful, coordinated effort to seize control and consolidate the four centers of power: political, monetary, intellectual, and ecclesiastical." (With No Apologies, pp. 128, 284, by former Senator Barry Goldwater.

and:


and, going back in time a bit, this:

"We, the People are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts --
not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow men who pervert the
Constitution." -- Abraham Lincoln

and this:

“Men honestly engaged in attempting to establish justice in the world, have no occasion thus to act in secret; or to appoint agents to do acts for which they (the principals) are not willing to be responsible.

“But a secret government is little less than a government of assassins. Under it, a man knows not who his tyrants are, until they have struck, and perhaps not then. He may guess, beforehand, as to some of his immediate neighbors. But he really knows nothing. The man to whom he would most naturally fly for protection, may prove an enemy, when the time of trial comes."
~ Lysander Spooner, in his essay, No Treason

I can sit here and fill this thread with such quotations all night long, but I'm sure I'm wearing out my welcome with this, so let's close with just one or two more....

"The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the larger centers has owned the Government ever since the days of Andrew Jackson." ~ President Franklin Delano Roosevelt in a letter to Colonel Edward Mandel House.

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: ladylearning on April 22, 2006, 02:14:30 am
Has this Complete 911 Timeline (http://cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&before_9/11=ableDanger) been linked to in either of the CT threads
Not that I recall. But in the first CT thread there was a time line link to a posting on the hopefully soon to be resurrected when we perpetually broke freedom outlaws can afford to do so TMM website by Michael Ruppert which came from his Copvscia site.
That link is http://www.copvcia.com/free/ww3/02_11_02_lucy.html

LL
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: ladylearning on April 22, 2006, 03:25:36 am

I can sit here and fill this thread with such quotations all night long, but I'm sure I'm wearing out my welcome

I don't think so.  In fact these, and similar, quotes bear repeating again and again and again. 

Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it."
-- Woodrow Wilson

If only more of today's military personnel would realize that they are being used by the owning elite's as a publicly subsidized capitalist goon squad
-- Major General Smedley Butler


I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country....corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of war.
-- Abraham Lincoln

"The real rulers in Washington are invisible, and exercise power from behind the scenes". U.S. Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter

These quoted individuals, having achieved some degree of power within government, soon understood that their, and the government's, power was merely an illusion. They become tools of a greater power.  And you're right elias, one could fill pages with these quotes.  The sheer numbers, surely, must make one carefully consider the viability, if not the probability, of conspiricy.

This might also be pertinent to this thread:
 a book review:Rule by Secrecy
by Jim Marrs
http://www.raven1.net/rulbysec.htm

LL
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Leonidas the Younger on April 22, 2006, 08:00:22 am
Quote
Let me approach this from another angle.  Regardless of what dynastic conspiracy you suspect, you'll never be able to prove anything.  Whether that's because "they" are too clever and ruthless or whether "they" don't exist actually doesn't matter.

Why?  Let's say for the sake of argument there IS some over-arching conspiracy.  What are you going to do about it?  In what way will you live your life differently?  If the Devil exists, what do you do about it?

Ussually your logic is spot on, but I must take exception to this.

Being able to prove something exists is not at all linked with being able to do anything effective about it.

EG: an asteroid 10 miles in diameter is shown conclusively to be on an impact trajectory with earth, and will hit next monday.

-- Leonidas
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 22, 2006, 09:02:24 am
I wonder what makes you think that I think that Bush is running the show? I'm in full agreement with you on this. He possesses none of the "skills, dedication, and rigid determination necessary" to run this show. Hell, the man can't even speak in public without being wired so that he can receive transmitted  proper answers by his handlers back-stage for quiestions fielded from the audience.

And in fact, to further prove your point, Bush has committed a number of major errors in the playing of his role.

Here again we see the Conspiracy Theory methodology at work, and why it's inherently unfalsifiable.

If George Bush were this sinister mastermind, that would be taken as evidence for a cabal at work.  However, if Bush is plainly incompetent, it's taken as proof that there is a cabal, but he's not playing his part.  No matter what he does or what he is, those same facts -- A or !A -- can be spun as support for the theory.   "Errors" are never interpreted as evidence against the conspiracy, only as more evidence of it.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 22, 2006, 09:06:54 am
Quote
Let me approach this from another angle.  Regardless of what dynastic conspiracy you suspect, you'll never be able to prove anything.  Whether that's because "they" are too clever and ruthless or whether "they" don't exist actually doesn't matter.

Why?  Let's say for the sake of argument there IS some over-arching conspiracy.  What are you going to do about it?  In what way will you live your life differently?  If the Devil exists, what do you do about it?

Ussually your logic is spot on, but I must take exception to this.

Being able to prove something exists is not at all linked with being able to do anything effective about it.

I know they're not logically linked at all.  But they're existentially linked.  Or perhaps it's just a question of my own interest.  People are spending vast amounts of time and energy trying to prove something unprovable...so I wonder what they're doing to DO with this mental conclusion they reach.  How will it alter their actions?

Quote
EG: an asteroid 10 miles in diameter is shown conclusively to be on an impact trajectory with earth, and will hit next monday.

Well, that at least I could do something about -- head for the hills, maybe.  But really that's not the right analogy.  The asteroid is a dramatic change from the status quo.  Whether there is a dynastic cabal at work IS the status quo (or isn't, depending on its existence).  So all people are doing here is trying to put a label on the status quo.  So I have to ask: what are people going to do differently aftrer this discussion?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 22, 2006, 09:10:27 am

Let me approach this from another angle.  Regardless of what dynastic conspiracy you suspect, you'll never be able to prove anything.  Whether that's because "they" are too clever and ruthless or whether "they" don't exist actually doesn't matter.

Why?  Let's say for the sake of argument there IS some over-arching conspiracy.  What are you going to do about it?  In what way will you live your life differently?  If the Devil exists, what do you do about it?

Simple answer for a good question: You expose it to the light of day. :)

You see, sans the mass-brainwash and popular programming of the society at large, the goodness inside the human heart shall never tolerate criminality being done in their name, or to them. If this conspiracy of the men who are establishing a one-world government which in their view must include the United States of America are exposed for what they are, their power, which is a brand of false-power in the first place, disappears - poof!

Um, ok, if you can find a smoking gun so huge and irrefutable and devastatingly clear, and publicize it far and wide, that every citizen in the US reads it and believes it.

But what expose has ever transpired like that?  There are, at any given moment, thousands of conspiracy theories, each with fervent believers, each with websites, each with books and publications.  Not one of them reaches the public at large.

Still, perhaps yours will be the one that does, though I wouldn't bet on it.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 22, 2006, 09:18:51 am
Assuming that your computer played the same extraction from that speech as did mine, I feel that you and I both must agree that George Walker Bush said that he was sitting outside that classroom (on the morning of 911) waiting to go in,

I'm not going to get back into the 9/11 conspiracy debate, but I will make one claim: no matter who else could be in on such a conspiracy, there is no way in the world GWB would be in on it.  Not because of his sterling moral character, but because he simply doesn't have the stuff.  To slaughter 3,200 Americans for some picayune political gain -- well, whatever else it takes, it requires an almost surreal amount of Machiavellianism, ability to rationalize incredible evil, and at the personal level: skill, self-discipline, and self-control.  There's no way on earth GWB could have been in on it, and not given it all away in the years afterwards.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Harleqwin on April 22, 2006, 09:56:54 am
...There's no way on earth GWB could have been in on it, and not given it all away in the years afterwards.

Posner, he did give it away.  Are you deaf?  or did you just not read the transcript of the interview from the whitehouse website?
Bush says "...and I saw an airplane hit the tower"
so, he does give it away. 

continue to spin away, Posner.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 22, 2006, 10:07:32 am
Posner, he did give it away.  Are you deaf?  or did you just not read the transcript of the interview from the whitehouse website?
Bush says "...and I saw an airplane hit the tower"
so, he does give it away. 

And on your planet, that's conclusive proof of a 9/11 conspiracy?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Leonidas the Younger on April 22, 2006, 10:08:59 am
Quote
continue to spin away, Posner.

This is uncivil debate, and sly ad hominem. Could you please just not say a damn thing if you have nothing to contribute?

-- Leonidas
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 22, 2006, 10:43:25 am
Posner, he did give it away.  Are you deaf?  or did you just not read the transcript of the interview from the whitehouse website?
Bush says "...and I saw an airplane hit the tower"
so, he does give it away.

And on your planet, that's conclusive proof of a 9/11 conspiracy?

I submit, (to repeat myself), that it is conclusive proof that a Secret Service/CIA command, control, and communications network was in operation that morning (911) and that the Bush caravan in Florida was "in the loop", was directly receiving the broadcasts being sent from the heart of the wargame-drill command center which was under Dick Cheney's command, and that George Walker Bush did indeed see real-time footage of the first plane hitting the first tower.

After seeing that - George Walker Bush went into the school classroom and sat down.

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Harleqwin on April 22, 2006, 11:14:04 am
Quote
continue to spin away, Posner.

This is uncivil debate, and sly ad hominem. Could you please just not say a damn thing if you have nothing to contribute?

-- Leonidas

I agree Leonidas.  I have slipped into the mud whilst wrestling with that pig, and now he has won.  I should have know better.  I tried using his tactics, or methods and now I'm all smelly and dirty.

I apologize to all the readers of this thread, and especially Elias for sidetracking it.

on a SMALL note that is actually RELATED to the thread, I found this peice of info that confirms the relationship between Southern Air Transport and the CIA;
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?j109:I12419:j109SOUTH.html
and
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.R.+1276:

Elias, is there anything you'd like me to search for?  Otherwise I shall just continue my own wanderings thru the pile of CIA related info.  (after a shower)
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: T.H.E. Cat on April 22, 2006, 03:01:42 pm
The difference is an astronomical amount of energy.  What I have continually asked -- and what you have evaded -- is for you to show what that amount of energy is, and how it would even be generated.

How about this dgg9? And I quote from the book "HARRP: The Ultimate weapon of the Conspiracy"

begin quote:

"The developmental prototype IRI (DP IRI) is comprised of 48 72 foot high towers on a ground pad 1,000 feet wide by 1200 feet long. The towers of the DP IRI are spaced at 80 foot intervals in a rectangular grid of eight columns and six rows. At the top of each tower are two dipole antennas. One of the dipoles is ajusted to operate in the 2.8 to 7 MHz range, the other in the 7 to 10 MHz range. The two dipoles are mounted horizontally like a large "X" at the top of each tower. Only one of the antennas of each pair can be operated at one time, depending on the output frequency desired. As well as their antennae, these towers support a complex, interconnected structure of wires and beams. A metal screen streaches between the towers 15 feet above the ground. This forms a continuous reflector for thr atennas."

"On the ground , beneath the antenna arry, are 30 transmitter shelters. Each shelter houses 12 diesel powered transmitters. These can be switched to drive either the low-band or high-band dipoles. Each transmitter is capable of generating 10,000 watts of RF power. Togehter, these 360 transmitters can send 3.6 million watts of raw RF output to the antennas. HARRP has a unique feature, a patented abillity to focus these transmissions into a single point high in the sky. This magnifies the putput a thousand times, giving HARRP an effective radiated power in excess of 3.6 billion watts. This makes it more than 72,000 times more powerful than the largest commercial radio station in the United States."

End quote.

So there you have a few facts for your study. Also you might want to read up on Tesla. HARRP is somewhat based on his theories.

Thomas Hewitt Edward Cat
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 22, 2006, 03:31:50 pm
3.6 million watts of raw RF output to the antennas. HARRP has a unique feature, a patented abillity to focus these transmissions into a single point high in the sky. This magnifies the putput a thousand times, giving HARRP an effective radiated power in excess of 3.6 billion watts. This makes it more than 72,000 times more powerful than the largest commercial radio station in the United States."

That sounds like pseudo science.  If the output is 3.6MW (which I read also from the HAARP website), then the output is 3.6MW.  There is no "effective radiated power."  The ability to focus the power to a small target simply means more of the 3.6MW makes it there intact.

I have no doubt HAARP can dump energy at a single point in the sky; that's what it's supposed to be about.  That may or may not effect weather changes, locally to that point.  But that won't raise the temperature of any large segment of the atmosphere.  If dumping energy at high altitude pinpoints can alter (very) localized weather -- maybe, I don't know.  There's no immediate contradiction or self evident impossibility about that claim.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 22, 2006, 05:19:38 pm
Quote
continue to spin away, Posner.

This is uncivil debate, and sly ad hominem. Could you please just not say a damn thing if you have nothing to contribute?

-- Leonidas

I agree Leonidas.  I have slipped into the mud whilst wrestling with that pig, and now he has won.  I should have know better.  I tried using his tactics, or methods and now I'm all smelly and dirty.

I apologize to all the readers of this thread, and especially Elias for sidetracking it.

on a SMALL note that is actually RELATED to the thread, I found this peice of info that confirms the relationship between Southern Air Transport and the CIA;
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?j109:I12419:j109SOUTH.html
and
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.R.+1276:

Elias, is there anything you'd like me to search for?  Otherwise I shall just continue my own wanderings thru the pile of CIA related info.  (after a shower)

Harleqwin,
Apologiy not necessary, my friend. Can't blame you a bit for scratching where it itches, y'kno? You're doing just fine, and you've shown yourself to be a mature and sentient man, honest and genuine, and quite willing to back-step where necessary. I salute you. Heck, I've had to apologize a hundred times on these well-worn boards. What separates the men from the mice is the maturity to make an apology when one sees it is justly called for. You did that.

This topic (which is supposed to be about a conspiracy which is composed of many lesser conspiracies) is possibly the most volatile subject on earth right now, for the consequences of its resolved truth, if we can reach that truth, are literally earth-shaking. What we are working for on this thread could, if reached and demonstrated well enough for public consumption, could re-chart American "policy" (both foreign and domestic) for decades to come, and undo all the filth which has overtaken our original Republic.

History holds all our answers - yet few among men take time to wade into that abyss. Those who rely upon what they have been taught, what they have been trained to think, and even the methods they have been taught to use for thinking, are often unaware of subtle inflections, hidden knowledge, lurking errors in perception, and many other aspects of perception which, to he who has taken the time to delve into hisroty,  are apparent and clear.

For example, most Americans today truly believe that Franklin Delano Roosevelt was being honest when he acted surprised that Japan attacked Pearl Harbor on December 07, 1941. Most Americans today would figure that anyone who would dare accuse Roosevelt of foreknowledge of the coming attack of being unpatriotic, un-American, and a fool to boot. However, thanks to the remarkable body of study given us by Robert B. Stinnett in his Day Of Deceit: The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor, we now know that Roosevelt not only knew in advance that the Japanese would attack at Pearl Harbor - he actually, literally, changed previoius U.S. foreign policy in ways which he, and a number of military brass, discussed as methods to force Japan to attack.

But just try to tell that to anyone who lost a loved-one at Pearl Harbor that day, and you'll suffer the heated abuse of the seriously aggrieved. Americans in general simply cannot conceive that a sitting U.S. President would literally initiate an eight-point plan to cause Japan to attack America. Yet that is exactly what happened, and those who've read into the history of it now know that to be the actual fact of the matter. Lieutenant Commander Arthur H. McCollum, in October of 1940, drew up a memorandum advocating eight actions that he predicted would lead to a Japanese attack on the United States. Those eight points were:

1. Make an arrangement with Britain for the use of British bases in the Pacific, particularly Singapore.
2. Make an arrangement with Holland for the use of base facilities and acquisition of supplies in the Dutch East Indies [now Indonesia]
3. Give all possible aid to the Chinese government of Chiang Kai-shek
4. Send a division of long-range heavy cruisers to the Orient, Philippines, or Singapore
5. Send two divisions of submarines to the Orient
6. Keep the main strength of the US Fleet, now in the Pacific, in the vicinity of the Hawaiian Island
7. Insist that the Dutch refuse to grant Japanese demands for undue economic concessions, particularly oil
8. Completely embargo all trade with Japan, in collaboration with a similar embargo imposed by the British Empire

That eight-point memo was dated October 7, 1940. It was sent to two of Roosevelt's most trusted military advisors: Navy captains Walter S. Anderson and Dudley W. Knox. Anderson was the director of the Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) and had direct access to Roosevelt personally.

From Stinnett's book, on page 9:

"However, a series of secret presidential routing logs plus collateral intelligence information in Navy files offer conclusive evidence that [Roosevelt] did see [the eight-point plan by McCollum]. Beginning the very next day, with FDR's involvement, McCollum's proposals (the eight point plan) were systematically put into effect. Throughout 1941, it seems, provoking Japan into an overt act of war was the principal policy that guided FDR's actions toward Japan. Army and Navy directives containing the "overt act" phrase were sent to Pacific commanders. Roosevelt's cabinet members, most notably Secretary of War Henry Stimson, are on recordfavoring he policy, according to Stimson's diary. Stimson's diary entries of 1941 place him with nine other Americans who knew or were associated with this policy of provocation during 1941."

The American people were deceived by their own damned President, who led this country into WWII deliberately by forcing Japan t attack the U.S., which they finally did on December 07, 1941. Stinnett shows this clearly with declassified documents he obtained through the Freedom Of Information Act. Yet, those who've not looked into Pearl Harbor will steadfastly attack anyone who dares to share this knowledge. It is simply too horrible to fathom for most Americans. Same goes for what I've discovered regarding 911. Therefore, we are not to be surprised when someone displays antagonistic antics here on this thread, for two reasons.

1. The scope and meaning of our approach to the 911 question can only show something which is so hideously ugly and repulsive that no American "in his right mind" (to use a well-worn quote for irony) would stand still and listen to it.
2. Many more Americans today who are working for companies, corporations, private groups, and government agencies are being paid to squash every attempt by any independent researcher or student of 911 if he chances to stumble across damning proof.  The criminals who've stolen our government, that cabal I refer to as the "shadow government" or the "secret government", which operates and functions and exists within our overt Federal government, simply cannot afford to have the truth of government complicity in the attacks of 911. It would end their power game, purge the secret government from our constitutional government, and undo almost a century's work and efforts to achieve their one-world government. It would transfer the wealth back to the people, punish the guilty appropriately, and reveal a grand scheme for what it is. Those people who operate the Bank of International Settlements are the ones who have the most to lose in this, and they are using the powers of our government offices, with their psy-ops meta-thugs and their goons, (and every other tool imaginable) to suppress our little conspiracy theory.

Those of us who have seen through the veil may only assess anyone from this point as being ignorant of the history which reveals the guilty - or as being in the service of those conspirators who must keep the truth of 911 from coming out. Many readers here sense already that these sorts of things are at stake here on this thread, and, like both you and myself have already demonstrated, the temptation to lie down with dogs has shown us that to do so is to get fleas.

I would simply state in closing this post that the truth never needs defending - it prevails always, no matter what people choose to think. In our case, we may feel anxious to reveal the truth more quickly, and to a broader audience, and we naturally shall tend to be short with obstinate dissenters who resort to known tactics of diversion and division in obvious attempts to destroy the unfolding of truth. That is to be expected, and now we both know to hold our fire a bit longer, eh? :)

Salute, Bro!
Elias

PS: No need to research for other stuff at this point in time, but I'd like to retain your offer for laters, okay? Thank you.

Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on April 22, 2006, 08:03:07 pm
I wonder what makes you think that I think that Bush is running the show? I'm in full agreement with you on this. He possesses none of the "skills, dedication, and rigid determination necessary" to run this show. Hell, the man can't even speak in public without being wired so that he can receive transmitted  proper answers by his handlers back-stage for quiestions fielded from the audience.

And in fact, to further prove your point, Bush has committed a number of major errors in the playing of his role.

Here again we see the Conspiracy Theory methodology at work, and why it's inherently unfalsifiable.

If George Bush were this sinister mastermind, that would be taken as evidence for a cabal at work.  However, if Bush is plainly incompetent, it's taken as proof that there is a cabal, but he's not playing his part.  No matter what he does or what he is, those same facts -- A or !A -- can be spun as support for the theory.   "Errors" are never interpreted as evidence against the conspiracy, only as more evidence of it.

I dropped into this thread to gather some stuff for a post that had been formulating while I was sleeping (damn, I really need to keep a notepad by the bed, I know it was a most excellent post, and I can't remember half of it, but I know it required gathering some quotes from deep within this thread), but I have to comment on this.

GWB does not even have to be consciously involved in the cabal. Twist this comment as you may regarding A and !A. It works better for the cabal if he is not aware. There are those who profess that Reagan was a dupe and that GHWB was the one in control (you know, that whole Iran Contra thing?). He could be a simpleton puppet. As EA said, that hump on his back ain't from osteoporosis (well, he really didn't say that). He would be especially likely to make the mistake of stating he saw the first plane hit the tower if he didn't know he wasn't supposed to. And no, I'm really not looking at this through the Looking Glass Queen filter of CT first, facts later. I'm just stating a possible hypothesis.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Leonidas the Younger on April 22, 2006, 08:07:54 pm
Quote
I agree Leonidas.  I have slipped into the mud whilst wrestling with that pig, and now he has won.  I should have know better.  I tried using his tactics, or methods and now I'm all smelly and dirty.

Oh puh-leeeez.

That is NOT an apology, thats just more attack. Welcome to my ignore list. I can't make you leave the forum, but I do request that if you're going to be an ass, do it elsewhere.

For fucking Christs sakes, we're all supposed to be adults. dgg9 is simply _asking questions_ - if y'all can't handle that from someone who is largely in agreement with you, how do you expect to convince anyone in "the public" ? I mean, hell, suppose for arguments sake dgg9 was a mole from the fedgov - answering his questions in a calm and dispassionate manner wouldn't HURT you any, would it? Instead you attack him, in subtle and not so subtle ways.

If you want to talk with me about me ignoring you, or this topic in general, you may email me at: entropy[at]dsotm.org

-- Leonidas
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: ShortyDawkins on April 22, 2006, 09:43:58 pm
Has anyone found anything about Lord Milner that connects him to the Rhodes dream of the new Anglo-American Empire? Possibly a speech, or something he wrote? I know he was designated a Trustee of the Rhodes Estate, but has anyone found anything else that ties him to the beliefs of Rhodes directly?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 23, 2006, 03:04:42 am
Has anyone found anything about Lord Milner that connects him to the Rhodes dream of the new Anglo-American Empire? Possibly a speech, or something he wrote? I know he was designated a Trustee of the Rhodes Estate, but has anyone found anything else that ties him to the beliefs of Rhodes directly?



"Does the Brotherhood exist?"

"That Winston, you will never know. If we choose to set you free when we have finished with you, and if you live to be ninety years old, still you will never learn whether the answer to that question is yes or no. As long as you live, it will be a riddle in your mind."  From 1984 by George Orwell
~

ShortyDawkins,
That was an excellent question, and I want to provide more than this post shall satisfy. While the following is not what you specifically asked for, it does represent the first thing which came to mind as I began to think of how to find some or any documents as you requested. I figured to halt my search at this point, and simply type in here something from the best man to know anything and everything about Lord Milner – Professor Carroll Quigley himself. Notes, for readers not already familiar with him, on Quigley follow these typed in passages.

~Begin reading on pages 950 – 952 in Tragedy And Hope by Carroll Quigley:

There does exist, and has existed for a generation, an international Anglophile network which operates, to some extent, in the way the radical Right believes the Communists to act. In fact, this network, which we may identify as the Round Table Groups, has no aversion to cooperating with the Communists, or any other groups, and frequently does so. I know of the operations of this network because I have studied it for twenty years and was permitted for two years, in the early 1960s, to examine its papers and secret records.... (snip)

....the story will be summarized here, because the American branch of this organization (sometimes called the “Eastern Establishment”) has played a very significant role in the history of the United States in the last generation.

The Round Table Groups were semi-secret discussion and lobbying groups organized by Lionel Curtis, Philip H. Kerr (Lord Lothian), and (Sir) William S. Marris in 1908-1911. This was done on behalf of Lord Milner, the dominant Trustee of the Rhodes Trust in the two decades 1905-1925.  The original purpose of these groups was to seek to federate the English-speaking world along lines laid down by Cecil Rhodes (1853-1902) and William T. Stead (1849-1912), and the money for the organizational work came originally from the Rhodes Trust. By 1915 Round Table groups existed in seven countries, including England, South Africa, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, and a rather loosely organized group in the United States (George Louis Beer, Walter Lippmann, Frank Aydelotte, Whitney Shepardson, Thomas W. Lamont, Jerome D. Greene, Erwin D. Canham of the Christian Science Monitor, and others). The attitudes of the various groups were coordinated by frequent visits and discussions and by a well-informed and totally anonymous quarterly magazine, The Round Table, whose first issue, largely written by Philip Kerr, appeared in November 1910.

The leaders of this group were: Milner, until his death in 1925, followed by Curtis (1872-1955), Robert H. (Lord) Brand (brother-in-law of Lady Astor) until his death in 1963, and now Adam D. Marris, son of Sir William and Brand's successor as managing director of Lazard Brothers bank. The original intention had been to have collegial leadership, but Milner was too secretive and headstrong to share the role. He did so only in the period 1913-1919 when he held regular meetings with some of his closest friends to coordinate their activities as a pressure group in the struggle with Wilhelmine Germany. This they called their “Ginger Group”. After Milner's death in 1925, the leadership was largely shared by the survivors of Milner's “Kindergarten”, that is, the group of young Oxford men whom he used as civil servants in his reconstruction of South Africa in 1901-1910. Brand was the last survivor of the “Kindergarten”; since his death, the greatly reduced activities of the organization have been exercised largely through the Editorial Committee of The Round Table magazine under Adam Marris.

Money for the widely ramified activities of this organization came originally from the associates and followers of Cecil Rhodes, chiefly from the Rhodes Trust itself, and from wealthy associates such as the Beit brothers, from Sir Abe Bailey, and (after 1915) from the Astor family. Since 1925 there have been substantial contributions from wealthy individuals and from foundations and firms associated with the international banking fraternity, especially the Carnegie United Kingdom Trust, and other organizations  associated with J. P. Morgan, the Rockefeller and Whitney families, and the associates of Lazard Brothers and of Morgan, Grenfell, and Company.

The chief backbone of this organization grew up along the already existing financial cooperation running from the Morgan Bank in New York to a group of international financiers in London led by Lazard Brothers. Milner himself in 1901 had refused a fabulous offer, worth up to $100,000 a year, to become one of the three partners of the Morgan Bank in London, in succession to the younger J. P. Morgan who moved from London to join his father in New York (eventually the vacancy went to E. C. Grenfell, and Company). Instead, Milner became director of a number of public banks, chiefly London Joint Stock Bank, corporate precursor of the Midland Bank. He became one of the greatest political and financial powers in England, with his disciples strategically placed throughout England in significant places, such as the directorship of Lazard Brothers, various administrative posts, and even Cabinet positions. Ramifications were established in politics, high finance, Oxford and London universities, periodicals, the civil service, and tax-exempt foundations.

At the end of the war of 1914, it became clear that the organization of this system had to be greatly extended. Once again the task was entrusted to Lionel Curtis who established, n England and each dominion, a front organization to the existing local Round Table Group. This front organization, called the Royal Institute of International Affairs, had as its nucleus in each area the existing submerged Round Table Group. In New York it was known as the Council on Foreign Relations, and was a front for J. P. Morgan and Company in association with the very small American Round Table Group. The American organizers were dominated by the large number of Morgan “experts”, including Lamont and Beer, who had gone to the Paris Peace Conference and there became close friends with the similar group of English “experts” which had been recruited by the Milner group. In fact, the original plans for the Royal Institute of International Affairs and the Council on Foreign Relations were drawn up at Paris. The Council of the RIIA (which, by Curtis's energy came to be housed in Chatham House, across St. James Square from the Astors, and was soon known by the name of this headquarters) and the board of the Council on Foreign Relations have carried ever since the marks of their origin.

(snip – continuing on page 956)

These misdirected attacks by the Radical Right did much to confuse the American people in the period 1948-1955, and left consequences which were still significant a decade later. By the end of 1953, most of these attacks had run their course. The American people, thoroughly bewildered at widespread charges of twenty years of treason and subversion, had rejected the Democrats and put into the White House the Republican Party's traditional favorite, a war  hero, Dwight D. Eisenhower. At the time, two events, one public and one secret, were still in process. The public one was the Korean War of 1950-1953; the secret one was the race for the thermonuclear bomb.

~End quoted passages from Tragedy And Hope by Carroll Quigley

Reading the above we see that Lord Milner is a substantial figure in the early-to-mid 20th Century. The Lazard Bank and numerous J. P. Morgan firms undoubtedly have legal papers which will verify the things you wish to know about Milner, but the last time I went into a bank they threatened to arrest me, lol! (Just joking!) There will be, undoubtedly, quite a bit of documentation on his life, his philosophy, his relationship with Cecil Rhodes and Carroll Quigley. At times I have come across pieces on Milner, but must confess to having no documents which you requested on hand, so I'll just have to promise you to post up anything I may find in my reading travels. Also, of hope, I'm sure that I have other files stuffed into my hard drive which would show more on Milner,  perhaps some material by Lyndon LaRouche, who is likely to be an excellent authority on the life and times of Lord Milner.

Thank you again for an excellent question.

Salute!
Elias


“Carroll Quigley, professor of history at the Foreign Service School of Georgetown University, formerly taught at Princeton and at Harvard. He has done research in the archives of France, Italy, and England, and is the author of the widely praised Evolution of Civilizations. A member of the editorial board of the monthly “Current History”, he is a frequent lecturer and consultant for public and semipublic agencies. He is a member of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the American Anthropological (Association) and the American Economic Association, as well as various historical associations. He has been lecturer on Russian history at the Industrial College of the Armed Forces since 1951 and on Africa at the Brookings Institution since 1961, and has lectured at many other places, including the U.S. Naval Weapons Laboratory, the Foreign Service Institute of the State Department, and the Naval College at Norfolk, Virginia. In 1958 he was a consultant to the Congressional Select Committee which set up the present national space agency. He was collaborator in history to the Smithsonian Institution after 1957, in connection with the establishment of its new Museum of History and Technology. In the summer of 1964 he went to the Navy Post-Graduate School, Monterey, California, as consultant to Project Seabed, which tried to visualize what American weapons systems would (be) like in twelve years.”
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: ShortyDawkins on April 23, 2006, 06:41:20 am
Thank you, EliasAlias,

That helps to further strengthen the line of descent from Rhodes to Milner to Quigley to Clinton.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 23, 2006, 11:57:48 am
Thank you, EliasAlias,

That helps to further strengthen the line of descent from Rhodes to Milner to Quigley to Clinton.

You're welcome, ShortyDawkins.

Let's also remember that at the head of that line of descent is the House of Rothschild, for whom Rhodes trashed Africa.

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: ladylearning on April 23, 2006, 01:18:13 pm
Has anyone found anything about Lord Milner that connects him to the Rhodes dream of the new Anglo-American Empire? Possibly a speech, or something he wrote? I know he was designated a Trustee of the Rhodes Estate, but has anyone found anything else that ties him to the beliefs of Rhodes directly?

I don't know if this http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/Rhodes&SecretS2.html fullfills your request. Everything one finds on the internet, if one is to hang one's hat on it, should be confirmed but for most of us it is difficult to do so.  Official documents and records can be confirmed but most of us do not have the time, resources, the know how, or in some cases, the authority to get our hands on these documents.

THE RHODES SCHOLARSHIPS, established by the terms of Cecil Rhodes's seventh will, are known to everyone. What is not so widely known is that Rhodes in five previous wills left his fortune to form a secret society, which was to devote itself to the preservation and expansion of the British Empire. And what does not seem to be known to anyone is that this secret society was created by Rhodes and his principal trustee, Lord Milner, and continues to exist to this day."
The above is here http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/rhodes-scholars.html and I believe should be attributed to Quigley.

And another link A Wider Patriotism: Alfred Milner and the British Empire Author: J Lee Thompson at : http://www.pickeringchatto.com/patriotism.htm

LL
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 23, 2006, 01:20:51 pm


Depleted Uranium

Saddam Hussein was a CIA puppet dictator and he was a great customer for the war industry in America. The U.S. government sold to Saddam Hussein four billion dollars' worth of weapons of mass destruction. The picture we've all seen of a smiling  Donald Rumsfeld shaking hands with a smiling Saddam Hussein is an authentic photograph. (I mention that in case Rush Limbaugh may be listening.)  In the 1980s, while the CIA was secretly using BCCI to handle the finances of CIA's illegal arms sales to Iran through Israel, the U.S. State Department was selling Iraq billions of dollars' worth of weapons. This means that the rogue CIA was furnishing weapons to one side of the Iran-Iraq war while the official U.S. government was arming Saddam Hussein's Iraq. This is now known history.

There appears to be much confusion within the public's perceptions regarding weapons of mass destruction, illegal arms sales to Iran, and the U.S. government's backing of one side in that war while that same government's covert arm was backing the other side.

Four billion dollars' worth of weapons of mass destruction, which were manufactured in America by private defense-contracting companies and three U.S. labs, is an awful lot of wicked stuff.  But America did not limit its sales of one item in particular to just Iraq. We now know that seventeen other nations have purchased Depleted Uranium from the U.S. I am not sure about the wisdom which would permit the selling of nuclear, chemical, and biological warfare materials to any nation, anywhere, at any time, for any reason. For example, if we recall that we sold Anthrax to Saddam Hussein, we must also wonder what he may have done with that stuff - and, we've every right in the world to wonder if he gave any of the stuff to anyone else....

The U.S. arms industry was the great beneficiary in four billion dollars' worth of weapons of mass destruction sales,  just to Iraq, and I do not know the volume sold to the sixteen other  nations.

While noting that the U.S. included Anthrax in the sales to Iraq, and while that one topic itself deserves a much closer investigation, I would like to focus here on just the Depleted Uranium.

~

Depleted Uranium (DU) is mined in several southwestern U.S. states. The basic uranium isotope comes in three types. By weight, the uranium is:

99.28percent which is uranium 238
.71 percent which is uranium 235
.0058 percent which is uranium 234

Uranium 234 and 235 are used for nuclear fuel and weapons. Uranium 238 becomes depleted uranium.

It occurs to some Americans today to question whether the U.S. military is by chance lying, once again, to the American people about depleted uranium. The U.S. government states point blank that depleted uranium shells are safe to store and to handle. The government states that the only time there is radio-activity involved, or radioactivity is released from a DU round,  is upon impact and explosion of a depleted uranium round.  The U.S. government says that it is perfectly okay and not a health threat for our troops to haul around wagon-loads of DU rounds, to handle them, take them from crates or load them into artillery pieces, or put them under the wings of U.S. military jets, and etc. No problem - the U.S. government says. The U.S. government does, however, acknowledge that some bad stuff is released upon impact of a DU round at its target.

For example, the Pentagon knows that when an anti-tank round is fired into a combat tank on a battle field, the DU round pierces the steel of the tank, blasts its way into the tank by exploding a hole in the tank's armor, whereupon the DU round passes through to ignite whatever it may inside the tank. At the time a DU round does that, it emits radio-activity into the air inside the tank, and outside the tank in the air around the tank.

The radio-activity which an exploding DU round emits goes – somewhere. What the U.S. military does not want to talk about is just where that radio-activity goes, and for how long that radio-activity might hang around in the world of the living, and about what might happen if a micron-sized, or fractional tenth of a micro-sized chunk of that DU were to be inbreathed by a human – say, a human serving in the U.S. military or a human who is a citizen of Iraq.

Here is something which the U.S. government is not bragging about -

When the U.S. military invaded Iraq during Gulf War I, under George Herbert Walker Bush, in an invasion named Desert Storm, the ground operation lasted approximately a hundred hours. They sometimes refer to it as the Hundred Hour War. A hundred hours is just a few days and nights. I do not wish to overlook the fact that there was intense bombing of Iraq from the air prior to the invasion by ground forces. That is important. But the troops on the ground finished the invasion in short order and withdrew to the Kuwait border and Saudi Arabia and elsewhere.

During the ground operations of Desert Storm, less than one hundred-fifty U.S. troops died. I do not know how many were wounded in conventional ways, but the mortality rate was amazingly low.

Eventually, the thousands of troops who invaded Iraq in Desert Storm rotated back home, where many of them got out of the military and went back into the civilian society to resume their lives. Problem:

Their “lives”, as many have sadly discovered, were not resumable. At least, not in the way they expected.  It may come as a shock to most readers today, about a decade and a half after Desert Storm, to learn that more than ten thousand of those returning troops of Desert Storm are now dead and in the ground. Ten thousand.

The actual combat had cost less than one hundred-fifty; the aftermath has already cost over ten thousand.

You won't see anything about this in military recruitment advertisements. The military is quiet about it.

But a lot of citizens do know about it, and they are talking about it. Ten thousand Desert Storm veterans are now dead since returning to America. These are (or were) healthy, fit, strong members of the U.S. military. Now they are dying by the thousands in the aftermath of Desert Storm.

What is causing so many premature deaths?

Among a host of other things, I think that our Desert Storm veterans breathed into their bodies Depleted Uranium. And I think that the government is lying through its teeth about this. Y'all want to talk about DU for a little while?

Salute!
Elias


Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Junker on April 23, 2006, 02:52:53 pm
Of course, Gen'l. What could be more fun than unobscuring govt obfuscation, eh?

A starting link or two--

SHORT PRIMER ON RADIOACTIVE DECAY - URANIUM 238 (U238) (http://www.atral.com/U2381.html)


The Use of the Radioactive Material Depleted Uranium U-238 (DU) as a Military Weapon (http://users.westnet.gr/~cgian/du-weapon.htm)

The Pentagon has been selling excess and obsolete stocks of brass covered shells that include 50-caliber armor-piercing rounds for $1 a ton to Talon Manufacturing Company. Last year Talon sold more that 100,000 armor-piercing 50 caliber rounds on the civilian market. The buyers ranged from the militaries of Brazil and Colombia to civilian weapons dealers in the US. Gun dealers boast that the projectile will go through six inches of steel up to a 45-degree angle at 1,000 yards. The 50-caliber guns are considered accurate at 2,000 yards and can hit targets 4 miles away with some effectiveness.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 23, 2006, 03:55:50 pm
Of course, Gen'l. What could be more fun than unobscuring govt obfuscation, eh?

A starting link or two--

SHORT PRIMER ON RADIOACTIVE DECAY - URANIUM 238 (U238) (http://www.atral.com/U2381.html)


The Use of the Radioactive Material Depleted Uranium U-238 (DU) as a Military Weapon (http://users.westnet.gr/~cgian/du-weapon.htm)

The Pentagon has been selling excess and obsolete stocks of brass covered shells that include 50-caliber armor-piercing rounds for $1 a ton to Talon Manufacturing Company. Last year Talon sold more that 100,000 armor-piercing 50 caliber rounds on the civilian market. The buyers ranged from the militaries of Brazil and Colombia to civilian weapons dealers in the US. Gun dealers boast that the projectile will go through six inches of steel up to a 45-degree angle at 1,000 yards. The 50-caliber guns are considered accurate at 2,000 yards and can hit targets 4 miles away with some effectiveness.

Heh! You always bring such good links!  Got 'em both saved to file in my collection here. I have noted that the language in that second link you sent is, while damning enough, perhaps not as stressful as I'd like to see. By that, I mean that I feel they could have shouted more loudly about the fact that more than a quarter million Gulf War I vets have applied for medical help since returning home from Desert Storm. The truth is that more than a quarter million of those returned troops ARE presently on varying degrees of VA-rated disability - which means that more than a quarter million Gulf War I vets are now receiving monthly disability checks from the VA. To get that sort of a rating, the government has to be made to recognize that the illness/sickness is "service-related".

This is a huge subject, and the horrible gravity of DU is going to be painful for me to bring to the attention of this thread, but since the information needs urgently to become known to all Americans, I'm gonna drag it out for viewing. Cheney, Rumsfeld, Schwarzkopf, and others have lied through their teeth about what they've done to our service women and men.   

In recent months, The Mental Militia has been passing around a wonderfully-produced and directed film called Beyond Treason.  http://www.beyondtreason.com/

In that film are some excellent segments featuring Leuren Moret. Leuren Moret's work is certain to get some spotlight here at this thread. She is an expert on low-level radiation and its atmospheric effects, as well as its biological effects upon humans who are exposed to it. One of her strongest fields of work involves DU.

So I'd like to introduce this thread to Leuren Moret.

(http://www.beyondtreason.com/cast/Moret.jpg)

Bio:


http://www.zi-activism.net/downloads/nonZi/leurenbio.htm

~

Leuren Moret is an independent scientist who works on
radiation and public health issues with communities
around the world.  She earned her B.S. in Geology  at
U.C. Davis in 1968, and her M.A. in Near Eastern
Studies from U.C. Berkeley in 1978.  She has completed
all but her dissertation for a PhD. in the Geosciences
at U.C. Davis.

After working 5 years at the Lawrence Berkeley
National Lab and two years at the Livermore nuclear
weapons lab, she left Livermore and now dedicates her
life to revealing and understanding the actual health
effects of radiation exposure.  She has worked
extensively on the impact of radiation on public
health from nuclear power plants and atmospheric
testing and how radiation moves through the
environment.   

Ms. Moret works with the Radiation and Public Health
Project [http://www.radiation.org], a group of
independent scientists who have written ten books on
low level radiation and public health.

Ms. Moret has written a scientific report on depleted
uranium for the United Nations subcommission
investigating the illegality of depleted uranium
munitions.  She has been trained on radiation issues
by a former Manhattan Project Scientist and retired
insider at the Livermore Lab who is an expert on
radioactive fallout and rainout.  Together with Dr.
Hari Sharma, they have studied high levels of depleted
uranium measured in the tissue samples of 70 residents
of Basra, Iraq, who died after the Gulf War from
internal exposure to depleted uranium.

Ms. Moret has detailed her research on the important
issue of depleted uranium particle size formed under
high temperature conditions on the battlefield.  The
production of these particles in very high
concentrations and numbers results in the permanent
suspension of depleted uranium particulate matter in
the atmosphere that has been ignored, but is a major
contributor to adverse health effects caused by DU
exposure.

Ms. Moret wrote the Foreword to Discounted Casualties:
The Human Cost of Depleted Uranium by Hiroshima
journalist Akira Tashiro.  The book can be read online
at:
[http://www.chugoku-np.co.jp/abom/uran/index_e.html].
In February 2002, she introduced Martin Meissonier’s
film The Invisible War: Depleted Uranium and the
Politics of Radiation at the Arab Film Festival in
Berkeley.  Most recently, she  helped to introduce
Takashi Morizumi and his photo exhibit A Different
Nuclear War: Children of the Gulf War to the United
States in October 2002, where the first US exhibit was
in the city of Berkeley.

Ms. Moret has worked extensively with Indigenous
People contaminated by radiation from the nuclear
weapons program, communities in the US and other
countries exposed to radiation from related
activities, and communities impacted by radiation from
nuclear power plants.  She is the Official Bay Area
Representative for members of the Japanese Parliament
opposed to the US war against Iraq, and is working
closely with Congresswoman Barbara Lee.  Her Berkeley
Resolution which was passed September 10, 2002, by the
first city in the world calls for a permanent ban on
the weaponization of space.   She proposed the
resolution after learning that lower orbital space is
contaminated with uranium and its decay products from
man-made sources.

Leuren Moret
President, Scientists for Indigenous People
Past President, Association for Women Geoscientists
City of Berkeley Environmental Commissioner
Official Bay Area Representative for Japanese Parliament Members opposed to the US War against Iraq.

~

She is also a Sweetie - a wonderful woman whose courage is unsurpassed. Being a whistleblower at the Lawrence Livermore Lab is not easy work. As she is an authority, her message has a heavy validity, and I will be drawing from her work as we look more deeply into this topic.

Salute, Junker!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: ShortyDawkins on April 23, 2006, 06:43:28 pm
Has anyone found anything about Lord Milner that connects him to the Rhodes dream of the new Anglo-American Empire? Possibly a speech, or something he wrote? I know he was designated a Trustee of the Rhodes Estate, but has anyone found anything else that ties him to the beliefs of Rhodes directly?

I don't know if this http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/Rhodes&SecretS2.html fullfills your request. Everything one finds on the internet, if one is to hang one's hat on it, should be confirmed but for most of us it is difficult to do so.  Official documents and records can be confirmed but most of us do not have the time, resources, the know how, or in some cases, the authority to get our hands on these documents.

THE RHODES SCHOLARSHIPS, established by the terms of Cecil Rhodes's seventh will, are known to everyone. What is not so widely known is that Rhodes in five previous wills left his fortune to form a secret society, which was to devote itself to the preservation and expansion of the British Empire. And what does not seem to be known to anyone is that this secret society was created by Rhodes and his principal trustee, Lord Milner, and continues to exist to this day."
The above is here http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/rhodes-scholars.html and I believe should be attributed to Quigley.

And another link A Wider Patriotism: Alfred Milner and the British Empire Author: J Lee Thompson at : http://www.pickeringchatto.com/patriotism.htm

LL

Hmmm... Alfred Milner was my grand-father's name, also.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 23, 2006, 11:51:50 pm

Hmmm... Alfred Milner was my grand-father's name, also.

Vell! Ein Zat Kase, Ve Must Ask To See Yur "Papers Please!"

:)

Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 24, 2006, 01:11:44 am
A quick note about an earlier post I made here. A friend who does not post here, but who reads here, has sent me a nice note which exposed to me a mis-statement or two which I made in that earlier post.  I have written back and asked permission to place the correction here as from an anonymous person, and am awaiting the permission to do so.  Now to the matter of this current post...
~

I have in recent months saved a few articles by Leuren Moret, and at this point I'd like to share one with you. From here:

http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/2004/DU-Trojan-Horse1jul04.htm

The article is powerful, so I recommend every reader of this thread hit the link and read it at its own address. Teaser excerpt:

~
"Although restricted to battlefields in Iraq and Kuwait, the 1991 Gulf War was one of the most toxic and environmentally devastating wars in world history. Oil well fires, the bombing of oil tankers and oil wells which released millions of gallons of oil into the Gulf of Arabia and desert, and the devastation from tanks and heavy equipment destroyed the desert ecosystem. The long term and far reaching effects, and dispersal of at least 340 tons of depleted uranium weapons, had a global environmental effect. Smoke from the oil fires was later found in deposits in South America, the Himalayas and Hawaii. Large annual dust storms originating in North Africa, the Middle East, and Central Asia will quickly spread the radioactive contamination around the world, and weathering of old depleted uranium munitions on battlefields and other areas will provide new sources of radioactive contamination in future years. Downwind from the radioactive devastation in Iraq, Israel is also suffering from large increases in breast cancer, leukemia and childhood diabetes."

snip

The Carlyle Group, a private massive equity firm, the 12th largest defense business with an obscenely high profit margin, is a business "arrangement" between the Bush and Bin Laden families, wealthy Saudis, former British Prime Minister John Major, James Baker III, Afsaneh Masheyekhi, Frank Carlucci, Colin Powell, other former US Government administrators, and Madeleine Albright’s daughter. The Carlyle Group is the ‘gatekeeper’ to the Saudi investment community. It owns 70 percent of Lockheed Martin Marietta, the largest military contractor in the US, and because Carlyle is privately owned, has no scrutiny or accountability whatsoever. A journalist who calls himself ‘a skunk at the garden party’ described investigating the Carlyle Group, he said ‘it’s like shadow boxing with a ghost’. The Group hires as lobbyists the best known politicians from around the world, in order to influence the politics of war, and privately profit from their previous public policies. The conflict of interest is obvious: President George W. Bush is creating wars as his father, former President George Bush, is globally peddling weapons and "protection". Lockheed Martin Marietta now owns Sandia Laboratories, a private contractor that makes the trigger for nuclear weapons, with a Sandia laboratory facility across the street from Los Alamos and Livermore National Laboratories, where the nuclear bombs are made.

At the May 2003 University of California Regents meeting which I attended, Admiral Linton Brooks was present and newly in charge of the nuclear weapons programme under the Department of Energy. Admiral Brooks informed California Lt. Governor Cruz Bustamante and the UC Regents that the management contract for the nuclear weapons laboratories, held unchallenged by the University of California for over 60 years, will be put up for competitive bid in 2005. The favoured institution, with a faculty member on the ‘blue ribbon committee’ making the contract award, is the University of Texas. This privatisation and management contract transfer of the US nuclear weapons programme will put control of the US nuclear weapons programme close to the Carlyle Group. The incestuous relationship between the US government, private companies, and the Bush and Bin Laden families in a way answers many of the lingering questions in everyone’s minds about many of the ill fated decisions and policies that have been implemented.
~

Thanks for reading that article. As we look more deeply into the U.S. military's use of DU, we are going to see that the very government which decided to use DU on the battlefield knew beforehand that they would be exposing our own troops to DU's deadly effects. They did it anyway. More on that coming soon.

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 24, 2006, 03:19:33 am
Regarding my note at the beginning of my previous post, I can say now that my friend has contacted me and given permission to post the message which corrects my error. The following may be considered to have been posted by "Pliny The Elder". :)

~

Re your post in Conspiracy Theory part 2 at 12:20 p.m. today:

You said
“Depleted Uranium (DU) is mined in several southwestern U.S. states. The basic uranium isotope comes in three types. By weight, the uranium is:

99.28percent which is uranium 238
.71 percent which is uranium 235
.0058 percent which is uranium 234”

I know I tend to be a nit-picker, but the above is inaccurate.
DU is not mined. Uranium ore is mined and processed (often by centrifuging or gas diffusion) to remove the lighter isotopes; leaving mostly pure U238, which is the Depleted (because of the removal of the more radioactive isotopes) Uranium.

The basic uranium chemical (a metal) comes in three isotopes and they are U238, U235 and U234. An isotope is a form of a chemical that has more or less mass than the other isotope of the same chemical because of differences in the number of neutrons in the nucleus of the atom. Chemistry is determined by the number of protons, and you can jam more neutrons in to make a heavier and usually radioactive form of that chemical. There is no chemical difference between the isotopes of a chemical, so they cannot be separated by chemical means. Thus the centrifuge or gas diffusion processes to sort them by weight. Another example is Deuterium Oxide, which is “heavy water” made from deuterium (heavy hydrogen with a neutron in the nucleus) instead of regular hydrogen. Don’t drink heavy water made from tritium, which is hydrogen with one proton (thus it is hydrogen) and two neutrons; as it is an alpha particle emitter, like U238.

The DU in gun darts or other ammo is radioactive all along. That is safe to handle and store because it is alpha radiation, which is absorbed by shielding such as human skin or a piece of paper. Doing anything chemical or mechanical (or both, such as burning/piercing through tank armor) does nothing to the uranium’s radioactivity. It is not the radiation from the dart hitting the tank that is dangerous. It is the fact that the uranium is dispersed as fine dust from the vaporization and oxidation of the dart impact -- that spreads the uranium into the air, water and soil -- that is bad. As you said, it can now be ingested into animals and do damage by emitting alpha particles directly inside of cells, thereby causing birth defects and cancers, among other horrids.

The military lie is a class-2 lie. Tell part of the truth (the part that makes you look good) and be silent about the rest of the truth (the part that makes you look bad). So now they can brag about the complete safety of waging nuclear war against civilians. Ain’t they nice folks?

I must agree with your preliminary conclusion that much of the gulf war syndrome is caused by radiation poisoning from DU dust. I also wonder how much was caused by chemical poisoning from chem-weapons either used or demolished in the air. I remember hearing about Iraqi chem-weapon dumps that were bombed and may have been upwind of U. S. - coalition forces. The one mitigating factor for me is the peacetime attrition rate, for a demographic of the people who were there, from peacetime causes. Some of those folks would have died anyway in the intervening years from disease and misadventure. Any life insurance company can tell that number if the sex ratio and age distribution are known. Then the normal attrition must be subtracted from the total death and disease rate to find the true gulf war syndrome numbers.

End of note from Pliny The Elder
~

As duly noted, "DU" is not 'mined' - uranium is mined. My fox paw.

Since Pliny The Elder is likely to "nit-pick" me and give me gently nudges whenever I stray from the facts, I'd like to now add some more "facts" to be inspected by Pliny The Elder and anyone else reading here. For the umpteenth time, I'll confess that I am not a scientist - but that doesn't stop me from reading what scientists say. Whether what I read by scientists is true or not shall probably be revealed by critiques in response here, ya think?

~

Depleted Uranium gives Alpha, Beta, Gamma, and X-Ray emissions. The Alpha particles disintegrate at the rate of over 10,000 mev (million electron volts) per minute. Any cell in your body operates at 10 mev. Therefore, as Dr. Doug Rokke says, when DU hits one of your cells, that cell does not have a good day. He also notes that a fragment of DU taken inside your body represents ionizing radiation - continuous emissions - at a rate of 300 millirams per hour.

I'd like to have any feedback on that much.

What Pliny The Elder has noted is also a huge factor here, when speaking of the Gulf War Illness. Our troops were vaccinated with a number of materials before deployment to Iraq, and while there they were exposed to not only DU but also to various chemical and biological agents which our dearly-beloved UNcle Samuel had previously sold to Saddam Hussein. The mixture which our troops were breathing in the air there is so complex that the symptoms of "Gulf War Syndrome" are very diverse. More on that later.

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: ladylearning on April 24, 2006, 11:22:50 am

Depleted Uranium gives Alpha, Beta, Gamma, and X-Ray emissions. The Alpha particles disintegrate at the rate of over 10,000 mev (million electron volts) per minute. Any cell in your body operates at 10 mev. Therefore, as Dr. Doug Rokke says, when DU hits one of your cells, that cell does not have a good day. He also notes that a fragment of DU taken inside your body represents ionizing radiation - continuous emissions - at a rate of 300 millirams per hour.

I'd like to have any feedback on that much.

Ummm.... emission rates, perhaps you should check your sources.  From what I've heard DU emits at 4.5MEV?? Check Dr. Rokke and let me know. To the layperson neither of these figures make much sense. What does make sense, or doesn't depending on how you look at it, is that thousands of military personell have died or suffered needlessly (in addition to indiginous peoples) and huge sectors of the planet have now been exposed forever.

LL
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 24, 2006, 11:59:18 am
I wonder what makes you think that I think that Bush is running the show? I'm in full agreement with you on this. He possesses none of the "skills, dedication, and rigid determination necessary" to run this show. Hell, the man can't even speak in public without being wired so that he can receive transmitted  proper answers by his handlers back-stage for quiestions fielded from the audience.

And in fact, to further prove your point, Bush has committed a number of major errors in the playing of his role.

Here again we see the Conspiracy Theory methodology at work, and why it's inherently unfalsifiable.

If George Bush were this sinister mastermind, that would be taken as evidence for a cabal at work.  However, if Bush is plainly incompetent, it's taken as proof that there is a cabal, but he's not playing his part.  No matter what he does or what he is, those same facts -- A or !A -- can be spun as support for the theory.   "Errors" are never interpreted as evidence against the conspiracy, only as more evidence of it.

dgg9, speaking of spinning - I would like to note for your attention that I have not said "Bush did 911". I am saying that Cheney did 911. Many Americans think "Bush did 911". I am not one of those who think Bush did it. I am one who thinks Cheney did it.

Just in the same way that somebody put Reagan up to signing EO 12333 shortly after Reagan came to office, somebody put Bush up to placing Cheney in charge of all consequence management exercises (war-game drills) on May 08, 2001, just months after Bush came to office and just months before 911. If we read EO12333 we must ask ourselves how a Hollywood actor who came to the Whtie House as President suddenly knew how - and why - to write an executive order like that. And if we read the Bush White House press release for May 08, 2001, we have to ask how - and why - a governor of a state who came to the White House suddenly knew to empower his Vice President over the Secret Service, CIA, FAA, NORAD, Pentagon, Port Authority, and etc, so that the VP would take command of war-game drills. There is something very fishy and very stinky there.

My guess: The "who" who put EO-12333 on the table in Reagan's administration was George Herbert Walkler Bush. The "who" who put Cheney in charge of war-game drills prior to 911 was George Herbert Walker Bush, former head of the CIA and former U.S. President and father of the newly-arrived U.S. President, George Walker Bush.

So let me clear this a bit for you. The war-game drills which Cheney was operating on the morning of 911 created exactly the circumstances and conditions which made it possible for four hijacked airliners to fly all over creation for about an hour without meeting any opposition from military fighter jets, which, in the absence of the war-game drills, would have routinely intercepted each hijacked jet within mere minutes.

You see now, I hope, that I'm not spinning anything. I've never said that I believe that Bush 43 was in the loop. I agree with you that he is an incompetent (and therefore useful idiot) man who chanced to be born into the Bush family, which has long had financial ties with Adolph Hitler and the Saudi bin Laden family.

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: dgg9 on April 24, 2006, 12:04:38 pm
I would like to note for your attention that I have not said "Bush did 911". I am saying that Cheney did 911. Many Americans think "Bush did 911". I am not one of those who think Bush did it. I am one who thinks Cheney did it.

Duly noted.  Excluding GWB from any conspiracy of this magnitude certainly makes it more plausible.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theory _ Part Two
Post by: Elias Alias on April 25, 2006, 01:39:50 am
I would like to note for your attention that I have not said "Bush did 911". I am saying that Cheney did 911. Many Americans think &qu