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General Interest => General Discussion => Topic started by: cowardly lion on January 15, 2013, 06:40:45 am

Title: Who Owns You?
Post by: cowardly lion on January 15, 2013, 06:40:45 am
Who Owns You?

Think about this concept for a minute or two.  Who Owns You?  Who is entitled to the product of your hands, head or heart?  Who has first claim on your life?  To whom do you have to answer for decisions that determine your direction, you plans, your dreams and goals?

Some of you reading this will have given over at least some portion of your life to a personal Savior.  Others will have given over some of their life to a significant other.  But what is the true answer?

The true and honest answer is, you own you.  The cases mentioned above are legitimate only with voluntary relinquishment of control, and even then you are still the final arbiter of your thoughts, words and deeds.

Important note:  you own not only your thoughts, words and deeds, you own the results, both the production and the consequences.

Here's a heads-up:  the government, any government at every level, thinks it owns you.  While some of us protest the government's hand in our pockets, vast numbers rely on the government owning the consequences of their actions.  Big bank and corporate bailouts, generations of welfare recipients whose only productive activity is gaming the system, you know what I'm talking about.

Some governments, we usually refer to them as totalitarian or dictatorships, implement this practice openly.  This is what happens with a disarmed populace.  Other governments, usually referred to as democracies or republics, pretend you have a modicum of control over your own life by periodically holding what are loosely termed  elections.  This is where a majority of the votes, gathered either legally or illegally,  are used to determine what shall be done with your life.

And this is what is going on in the United States of America right now.  More and more special interest groups believe they have a claim on your life, your earnings, your savings, even your personal protection.  And if they can garner enough votes, they get it.

While democracy may seem a reasonable alternative to totalitarianism, it more honestly can be called the tyranny of the majority.  Remember, for many decades in the United States, slavery was completely legal.  Doesn't say much for majority rule, does it?

Have you ever heard someone say 'If you don't vote, you can't complain'?  Unfortunately, the exact opposite is true.  If you vote, you buy in to the process that whoever gets the most votes wins, and therefore you cannot complain about the outcome.  Remember, if your side had won, you would have been imposing your will on the minority.

So, who owns you?  Is it your neighbors,  your alleged representatives, or an administration deciding they know what's best and writing executive orders?  No.  You own you, and you alone are responsible for all of your thoughts, words and deeds.   Anything taken from you aside from voluntary agreement is theft.   The consequences of your actions aren't included because you cannot abdicate that responsibility.  The 'I was only following orders' defense doesn't hold water.

I am trying to create a meme around the question “Who Owns You?”  Some of you will see this on Facebook, some of you will see this in an email, others will see it on one or more of a few forums I frequent.  Please pass it along if you think it worthwhile.  I'll know I have succeeded when I see it returning to me from quarters I didn't expect.

Who Owns You?
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: MamaLiberty on January 15, 2013, 06:42:53 am
Excellent. Classic and simple without being simplistic. :)
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: StillaGhost on January 15, 2013, 11:23:29 am
.
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: MamaLiberty on January 15, 2013, 11:32:34 am
Excellent. Classic and simple without being simplistic. :)

 
 
  Make it a Sticky................seriously.

Will do. :)
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: cowardly lion on January 15, 2013, 03:04:32 pm
Sticky?  Seriously?   :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: MamaLiberty on January 15, 2013, 03:12:56 pm
Sticky?  Seriously?   :rolleyes:

Probably only temporary... but this is very good for new folks to read.
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: da gooch on January 15, 2013, 05:56:43 pm
Why only temporary?  This is an issue that is eternal is it not?
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: MamaLiberty on January 16, 2013, 06:18:31 am
Why only temporary?  This is an issue that is eternal is it not?

Temporary only if it seems to lose immediacy, really. We already have so many things "stickied" that they tend to get lost as it is. Bump it every once in a while if nobody comments on it. :)
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: Ardmore on January 16, 2013, 01:49:16 pm
I vote for sticky.
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: Clip Johnson on January 16, 2013, 10:01:36 pm
An excellent synopsis on the actual state of affairs.

Thank you, Cowardly Lion!
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: cowardly lion on January 17, 2013, 08:34:31 pm
You're welcome.  Please pass it along in any forum you wish.  Attribution isn't necessary.

cl
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: mouse on February 08, 2013, 05:55:46 am
 :hello: Time to admit that I did pass it on.  I did attribute it to you though.  I didn't want it to seem too American though, so where you said "and this is what's going on in the United States of America right now", I substituted "and this is what is going on in most places right now".

 :sunny:
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: da gooch on February 08, 2013, 11:07:35 am
Why only temporary?  This is an issue that is eternal is it not?

Temporary only if it seems to lose immediacy, really. We already have so many things "stickied" that they tend to get lost as it is. Bump it every once in a while if nobody comments on it. :)

OK I shall make every effort to keep it up on the list when the sticky wears off.

In My Humble Opinion this should wind up being yet another long lived thread Like the one about the imitation food stuffs whose producer is going out of business.

 :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: MamaLiberty on February 08, 2013, 11:24:09 am
OK I shall make every effort to keep it up on the list when the sticky wears off.

In My Humble Opinion this should wind up being yet another long lived thread Like the one about the imitation food stuffs whose producer is going out of business.

 :rolleyes:

That would be wonderful. :) I hope we can have some good discussion about this. Twinkies are more fun, of course. :)
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: Scarmiglione' on March 01, 2013, 09:38:59 am
I'm always surprised by how many people I will ask this question of, and their response always contains a "but".

"I do, but..."   "No one does, but..."

Some of them have surprised me, as there do seem to be people who have convinced themselves they are not, should not, and will not think of themselves as individual entities.  They purport to believe that they are "owned" by society and that they genuinely owe other people portions of themselves based on social agreements.

That's okay, of course, even if it's alien to me.  It's easy enough to move on to, "Okay, but not everyone thinks that way.  How do we get along together?  You owing people whatever they agree you owe them, and I being a peaceful individual who owns himself in whole?  Surely these two beliefs can live side-by-side peacefully if we want to?   Or do you believe that your social acts of claim against other people include those who don't want to participate, and that your belief is so superior you have a right to force people to abide?"

Obvious this gets uncomfortable very quickly, but the responses can be telling.
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: MamaLiberty on March 01, 2013, 12:04:42 pm
http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/?p=1223
By what authority?

I've started simply asking this question.

Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: DPR 2006 on March 01, 2013, 07:06:15 pm
In answer to the question, I submit my response:

So far as any mortal man or woman or collection/community of people are concerned, I own me.  No one who walks this Earth has ANY prior claim upon my body or the work of my hands, UNLESS it is because of something to which I have agreed (ie, if my employer pays for training from an outside source, such as a college, and they expect me to work for them for a certain amount of time afterward, this is something reasonable, value for value).

There are only two people to whom I have pledged my life:  My wife has a claim on me, something that I agreed to, very happily, 17 years ago, and I have a claim on her; no one else touches her or me in a sexual fashion.  Ever.  Those here who are married will know what other obligations and promises come with that territory, and I will not go into them at this time.

The only other person who has a prior claim to my life is my God, Yah'Veh Elohim.  I lived in relative ignorance of this fact for several years, and then came to understand what my relationship to Him needed to be.  He provided the way through the sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ, Yah'shua Ha-Meshiah, and I accepted that sacrifice.  As a result, I am His.

I know that there are people around who will not accept His sacrifice, and I know that, apart from impassioned reasoning, I can do nothing to make them do it.  After all, they own their own lives, and they will do as they see fit.

I know that there are people who believe that their lives are their own, but also believe that MY life is their own.  They may seek to take what is mine, whether by force or threat of force.  I deal with those situations on a case by case basis.  So far in my life, I have done little violence to anyone that was intended to dissuade them from taking what is mine.  If I had my way, I would never have to resort to such violence.  I know, though, that if I have had to have done it in the past, I will probably have to do so in the future.

'nuff said.
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: Currawong on September 21, 2013, 12:52:19 am
In reply to the original question, it's obvious that the State owns you.
Do you think anyone can escape from the clutches, the obfuscations, the tyranny and unbridled,unlawful
control that the State exerts over you?
I'll share a personal epiphany or  'lightbulb moment' with all; "I've realised that I've spent my life chasing my own humanity
-and found it an empty shell!!"EHD 20.5.13 @15.31p.m.
Hope this doesn't confuse,mes amis.
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: da gooch on September 21, 2013, 06:59:29 pm
The State has no control over you that you don't allow it to have.
The State may Think it owns you and even act like it does But You own you and you make all of the decisions. To follow its rules or not You choose.
For example:
IF I choose to use a "licensed vehicle" in order to be able to use the modern highways that is MY choice. I could choose to do without it.
And Yes I have done without for extended periods of time.

The State has no control over you that you don't allow it to have.

Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: MamaLiberty on September 22, 2013, 05:29:39 am
The State has no control over you that you don't allow it to have.

That's only true if you are willing to be caged or murdered to make that choice. Control, at the point of a gun, is different than ownership. If you got along without the "license," what caused you to get it at another time? I can pretty well guarantee you that choosing to walk down a street in Chicago, openly armed with a rifle, will get you killed by the state.

The state may have more or less "control," but does not actually own you - unless you abdicate that ownership to them as well.   

As long as most people don't recognize their natural self ownership, they remain slaves and are mostly eager to make sure everyone else remains a slave. Do they comply because they really, really want to? Or do they comply because they are not ready to die just yet? As more people see the bad choices for what they are and begin to resist, perhaps they can understand self ownership.
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: Currawong on September 23, 2013, 09:36:15 pm
"Government by the people for the people"and lo and behold the State was born! You turn on your computer
and you buy into the State.You post your letter you enter a contract of trust with the State.
The State is an idea thought up by humans initially for right honourable motives and hopes; to help,to aid
'the people'. But the idea has become corrupted like the proverbial apple in the barrel.Now it has lost control of it's arms, legs and limbs that it lumbers through our lives with.

The original idea as an ideal still exists but underneath this mask of civility and common concern lies
a monster which wants to control,to run,to own.

One possible answer is to grab control of every second of our existence and make it meaningful,and full
and loving.But that's a very difficult ask especially if you work for the State as I have done.Because you are part of the monster
that you're trying to escape from.So think again: the State owns us.We choose voluntarily in our everyday lives to be owned by the State.
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: MamaLiberty on September 24, 2013, 06:46:10 am
the State owns us.We choose voluntarily in our everyday lives to be owned by the State.

I don't accept that for a moment. Not true at all, unless you want it to be. And then, you can only choose for yourself.
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: Rarick on September 24, 2013, 10:25:39 am
I own me, sometimes I have to compromise with the state to get what I want or need, but that is more like doing business than accepting they own me.........
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: gunslinger598 on September 24, 2013, 10:36:45 am
Because "the state" does anything doesn't imply ownership at all. Other beings & entities do exist that neither implies ownership. Any other such thought is more than absurd.

If you tease a snake & it bites you may die. The snake don't own you. However you can exist free in the snakes environment, just don't step on it. Common sense ..
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: Lonewolf72 on September 27, 2013, 03:56:43 pm
Currawong, by your reasoning, then, if I hold you at gunpoint and make you drive me somewhere, or do something for me, I then own you. (At least that is how I am understanding it.)

Not gonna happen, here.
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on September 29, 2013, 10:51:28 am
"You turn on your computer
and you buy into the State.You post your letter you enter a contract of trust with the State."
 :bs:
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: BranchMaster on September 29, 2013, 11:24:26 pm
...
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: Tipitaka on September 30, 2013, 04:36:23 am
Nobody but me holds legitimate claim to my life, liberty, property, or possessions. Not government leaders, not Gods, not my parents, not the clubs I subscribe to, not any political party or religious organization; nobody but me, myself, and I.

However, there are illegitimate claims resulting in de-facto slavery.

"That we were slaves I had known all my life — and nothing could be done about it. True, we weren't bought and sold — but as long as Authority held monopoly over what we had to have and what we could sell to buy it, we were slaves." ~Robert A. Heinlein, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress - Chapter 2 page 31

"To be governed is to be watched over, inspected, spied on, directed, legislated at, regulated, docketed, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, assessed, weighed, censored, ordered about, by men who have neither the right, nor the knowledge, nor the virtue. ... To be governed is to be at every operation, at every transaction, noted, registered, enrolled, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under the pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be placed under contribution, trained, ransomed, exploited, monopolized, extorted, squeezed, mystified, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, despised, harassed, tracked, abused, clubbed, disarmed, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and, to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, outraged, dishonoured. That is government; that is its justice; that is its morality." ~Pierre-Joseph Proudhon - Idée Générale de la Révolution au XIXe Siècle [The General Idea of the Revolution] (1851); quoted in The Anarchists (1964) by James Joll, Ch. 3, p. 78


That doesn't mean that I have to accept things as they are.

"I will accept any rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do." ~Robert A. Heinlein, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress - chapter and verse unknown

"I stand ready to negotiate, but I want no part of laws: I acknowledge none; I protest against every order with which some authority may feel pleased on the basis of some alleged necessity to over-rule my free will. Laws: We know what they are, and what they are worth! They are spider webs for the rich and mighty, steel chains for the poor and weak, fishing nets in the hands of government." ~Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, "The Authority Principle" in No Gods, No Masters : An Anthology of Anarchism (1980) Daniel Guérin, as translated by Paul Sharkey (1998), p. 90

"Government by the people for the people"and lo and behold the State was born!

"When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called "the People's Stick."" ~Mikhail Alexandrovich Bakunin

Sales taxes are unavoidable, but all other supports of the state, I have withdrawn. And all while playing the game as it were. I have broken no laws in so doing.
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: heyoka on September 30, 2013, 10:14:30 am
^^^^^^
Well said Tipitaka
I've live most of my adult life as an "outlaw", over some damned thing or another. In my dotage I try to avoid it, when possible.
When it's not possible, it's weightless on my mind.
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: MamaLiberty on September 30, 2013, 11:46:02 am
Nobody but me holds legitimate claim to my life, liberty, property, or possessions. Not government leaders, not Gods, not my parents, not the clubs I subscribe to, not any political party or religious organization; nobody but me, myself, and I.

However, there are illegitimate claims resulting in de-facto slavery.

Sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, there are no legitimate claims on my self ownership. Period. Choosing not to die at the hands of the robber is not the same thing as consenting to be robbed.
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: Tipitaka on September 30, 2013, 01:52:49 pm
Nobody but me holds legitimate claim to my life, liberty, property, or possessions. Not government leaders, not Gods, not my parents, not the clubs I subscribe to, not any political party or religious organization; nobody but me, myself, and I.

However, there are illegitimate claims resulting in de-facto slavery.

Sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, there are no legitimate claims on my self ownership. Period. Choosing not to die at the hands of the robber is not the same thing as consenting to be robbed.

I just said there were no legitimate claims. And then I noted a fact, that illegitimate claims had been made. And then in the part you didn't quote me on, I said that fighting those illegitimate claims. What's the problem here?
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: MamaLiberty on September 30, 2013, 02:46:06 pm
However, there are illegitimate claims resulting in de-facto slavery.

I just said there were no legitimate claims. And then I noted a fact, that illegitimate claims had been made. And then in the part you didn't quote me on, I said that fighting those illegitimate claims. What's the problem here?
[/quote]

Sorry, read that as "legitimate claims."  This whole subject gets crazy... sigh
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: Tipitaka on September 30, 2013, 09:28:20 pm
However, there are illegitimate claims resulting in de-facto slavery.

I just said there were no legitimate claims. And then I noted a fact, that illegitimate claims had been made. And then in the part you didn't quote me on, I said that fighting those illegitimate claims. What's the problem here?

Sorry, read that as "legitimate claims."  This whole subject gets crazy... sigh
[/quote]

It's okay, I was just trying to understand why you were upset with what I said.
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: Currawong on November 14, 2013, 05:06:55 am
Contrary to popular belief I do not make statements just for the sake.
The principal reason for my contention that the State owns me is due to the fact that it has all my personal information
and records.
In exactly the same manner we 'own' bits of each other or rather we allow others to 'own' bits
of us in the sharing of info.
The State holds a version of our identity which it thinks it knows us by and sadly and consequently thinks
it 'owns' us by. This tragic state of affairs is the result of us volunteering said information or being made to give it.
If we have to give information under force or in any other coercive way then indeed we are living under a form of
totalitarianism, tyranny or dictatorial rule. The rule is certainly unfree.

Although we may feel self ownership this is a pipedream I'm afraid. All we may be referring to is our own sense
of self ownership but the State has our identity. What are we to do about that? Here in the UK there is a Freedom of
Information Act which I know about but have not studied in great enough detail in order to get ALL of myself back
from the State, build it high in the garden and set alight to it. Only then will my spirit, my identity and my ownership
 feel free. I'm not dealing with some popcorn in the sky ideal but am resolving a problem of my identity and
my ownership of me.
People go beneath the radar for their own reasons but I bet one of them is that wonderful knowledge that perhaps
no one knows where you are. I've done it so I speak of experience.

''Who owns you?'' is a bigger animal than we realise. It's a whole herd of related animals that range through
the grasslands and habitats of our minds and lives.
Tell me what you see.
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: MamaLiberty on November 14, 2013, 06:35:22 am
Contrary to popular belief I do not make statements just for the sake.
The principal reason for my contention that the State owns me is due to the fact that it has all my personal information
and records.


You just seem to have a different definition of "ownership." I totally and completely reject your definition, that's all. :) My "sense" of self ownership is the only thing that is important. Even though it is wonderful when others recognize and respect it, that is not necessary for it to exist. I think you would agree that people must be responsible for their choices and actions, to live with the consequences without theft or other aggression against others... but that is only possible with self owners. Self ownership is the flip side of the coin. There has to be both sides, ownership and responsibility.

It does not require a perfect world, or the absence of aggressors. Self ownership/responsibility is the REASON I reject and resist the imperfect world and the aggressors. If I didn't believe I owned myself, was responsible for myself, I wouldn't care and it wouldn't matter.
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: Currawong on November 16, 2013, 10:59:05 am
The question is bigger than how it has so far been addressed for it involves what we mean be such things as autonomy, one's relationship with the State and race memory/history.
Choices and their responsibility and their relevance to being a 'self owner' appear to me to be too simple a correlation.
It may be argued that from these two important aspects of our lives flow that which we make happen; the
consequences and results of our actions.
But it is what lies at the heart of and behind our reasoning to act in the way we do that motivates my life.
For me it is ''Where am I coming from?'' rather than ''Where am I going?''.

Yes, our definitions are certainly different but so our historical mindsets: mine an old hierarchical European
system and yours a modern, young frontierism.
I respect the difference and it's outcomes for us both.
Blessings.
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: MamaLiberty on November 16, 2013, 11:25:24 am
No problem. As long as you don't try to impose that definition on me, we can agree to disagree.

If I do not have a goal, a motivation for what lies ahead, I have absolutely no reason to give a damn about the past. The past is the experience needed to build the future. They are both important, but we live only in the now, which inexorably is building the future... It is impossible to actually live in the past.
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: mouse on November 16, 2013, 04:13:04 pm
I've been reading this thread for some time but now I've just got to "wade in" with my view.  Yes, the state DOES "own" you (at least your body).  Albeit illegitimately (they have TAKEN ownership by force and you had no choice in that, you didn't "sell" or "give" ownership) but state ownership of your body exists as a practical fact.  Short of leaving "society" and living out your life in the wilderness, "living off the land", there is nothing you can do about it.

This "ownership" (of YOU at least, not your body) ends when you die.  Then you go to the rightful owner - Christ.  However, the state still has control over your body - they can, and do, demand that your death be "registered", tribute paid to them for the privilege of "death registration", and they claim the right to do with the body what they like, i.e. "the rules" with regard to disposal must be adhered to.  At the moment your relatives have the final "say" with regard to organ donation, but the state will soon take over this role.  The state has already made it clear that they can "trump" what ever a relative says about what happens to a body.  The relative can "have a say" that is about the extent of it, the state will make the decision.

When you were in utero your mother "owned you" but the minute you were born, the state TOOK you.  Your parents gave their consent to this (OK, they were tricked into doing so) by the fact that they "registered" you with the state and accepted any help that state agencies had to offer "for a new born bady".

Why do you think that the state "throws its weight around" with regard to vaccinations, "child health" and "over-rules" parents where the state thinks that the child "needs" medical treatments like chemotherapy?  The state always has the "final say".  The state thinks it has the right to TAKE (back?) children "will nilly" if the state's will with regard to the child is not being adhered to.

The state thinks it has the right to demand that you "go to school" and be indoctrinated with their beliefs.  If they didn't think that they "owned" you they would not be able or want to "mould you" into being an "obedient unit".

When you grow up the state thinks that it has a right to conscript its own property into the military, demand that its own property "obey he rules" of society (ie drive at the "speed limit, don't smoke pot etc.).  The state thinks that it has the right to "number its own property" (SSNs), issue ID cards (real ID) to keep track of it's property, and the state simply cannot let its slaves start getting "uppity", owning guns, using them to "get their way" and "get the state off their back", taking things (like land or rainwater - things that rightfully belong to the state) and getting the idea that can have control over them.

So the state DOES own you whether it it legitimate or not, moral or not, it is an existing fact.  Not because we have given our consent or “allowed it” but because the state has a monopoly on violence, it has force on its side and it TAKES what it wants.  Also this happens because there are so many people out there who think that it is a good thing that the state has these powers and even think that these state powers were somehow divinely delegated to them.

The biggest obstacle we who believe in freedom face is convincing others who believe in “the divine right of the state” that there’s nothing “divine” about the state at all.  I’ve even heard “God delegated some of his powers to the king, but we no longer have a king as parliament has taken over but parliament has these delegated powers because they got them off the king (the execution of king Charles the first in 1649 and “parliament taking over his powers” - or substitute the word "president" for "parliament").  Others believe that state has powers over people – ownership “because Romans 13 says so”.  These people are the biggest “enemies of freedom”, not “the state” itself because “the state” is made up of state employees who are not very bright, just bright enough to “do what they’re told” and know that their livelihood “comes from the state” (they don’t even realise that it actually comes from the people) and their allegiance would soon change if that paycheque were to stop coming.

The state even has the final say over what name you will have.  If your parents want to call you something "totally unreasonable", the state will "over rule" it.  The state believes it has the right to imprison you "at will", execute you, make you work (sentence you to "hard labour"), force you to "pay taxes" and therefore work to get the money, to make you "fight for your country" (ie "the state").  Now they believe that they have the right to "regulate" your medical care (Obamacare) because your body really belongs to "us" -the state, not you.

The only way to assert real self ownership is if someone is born in a remote location, never "registered" with the state, never requires "proof of ID" of any sort and dies without the state knowing about their existence.

God is probably laughing about all this and thinking "how can they really think they own my people?  It is ridiculous".  It may not be a "fact" as such, but state ownership does exist because so many people believe that it does.
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: MamaLiberty on November 16, 2013, 04:39:34 pm
Well, mouse, we can agree to disagree as well.  Again, I think there's a difference in the definition of ownership.

Control is not the same as ownership. If a thief steals your horse and rides away, the ownership of the horse remains in your hands. If you sell it or give it away, then the ownership is transfered. If someone burns down your house, don't you still own it? If someone holds you captive, you are no less a human being than before. Human beings own themselves, no matter what situation they are in, or what others may do. 

The prisoner in the deepest dungeon continues to own his body and soul. We own ourselves as long as we live, and we can't really get out of that responsibility by insisting that the "state" somehow owns us because "we" - society in general - allow it to abuse us. That rejection of responsibility is one of the greatest things that allows the state to continue, actually.

Parents do not "own" their children either. They take on responsibility for them over a limited time, but are only custodians. They own themselves, period.

And the creator of the universe doesn't own us either. We can say we give our life/soul away if we choose, but we still have the choice, and responsibility.
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: mouse on November 16, 2013, 05:12:14 pm
Well, mouse, we can agree to disagree as well.  Again, I think there's a difference in the definition of ownership.

Control is not the same as ownership. If a thief steals your horse and rides away, the ownership of the horse remains in your hands. If you sell it or give it away, then the ownership is transfered. If someone burns down your house, don't you still own it? If someone holds you captive, you are no less a human being than before. Human beings own themselves, no matter what situation they are in, or what others may do. 

The prisoner in the deepest dungeon continues to own his body and soul. We own ourselves as long as we live, and we can't really get out of that responsibility by insisting that the "state" somehow owns us because "we" - society in general - allow it to abuse us. That rejection of responsibility is one of the greatest things that allows the state to continue, actually.

Parents do not "own" their children either. They take on responsibility for them over a limited time, but are only custodians. They own themselves, period.

And the creator of the universe doesn't own us either. We can say we give our life/soul away if we choose, but we still have the choice, and responsibility.

"Ownership" of something is only a reality if the owner can use it, or see it, or do with it what ever he wants.  If someone steals your horse (like in your analogy) you cannot call the horse and expect it to come - it will not hear you.  You cannot ride it as someone has taken it away and you cannot even feed it because it is not there to see the food or eat it.  Sure you still "own" it, THEORETICALLY, but what good is that if (say) you advertise it for sale and I agree to buy it and go to see it but you say "you cannot have it because someone stole it"?

As for "if someone burns down your house, don't you still own it".  Well maybe you own the ashes of the house, but you no longer own a house, it is not there any more, it has been destroyed.  You no longer have a house, you no longer own a house, you cannot live in ashes or sell ashes as a house.

"The prisoner in the deepest dungeon continues to own his body and soul", sure he continues to own his soul, but not his body.  His body can be violated at any time, he can be "force fed" anything he doesn't want to eat, his body can be subjected to any form of "experimentation" or abuse that his captors want it to be, his body can be forcibly tattooed, marked, scarred or damaged by forced labour or the like and there is nothing he can do about it.  How is that "ownership"?
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: MamaLiberty on November 17, 2013, 05:33:08 am
Well, you folks use your definition, and I'll use mine. Seems sad to me, but it's your life.
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on November 17, 2013, 10:47:14 am
I am constantly amazed at the arguments I get on Facebook from libertarians and voluntarists about the concept of self ownership in general. The same with the idea of "rights". The 2 are intertwined, of course.
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: Currawong on November 17, 2013, 01:28:20 pm
Yeah,great isn't it. Just shows the avid interest angle. Of course it is about rights too but what always gets me is State interference and
control. I reckon most people hate those daily messing about with one's rights.
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: Elias Alias on February 07, 2014, 01:14:51 am
I am constantly amazed at the arguments I get on Facebook from libertarians and voluntarists about the concept of self ownership in general. The same with the idea of "rights". The 2 are intertwined, of course.

Ragnar, check out this dissertation on self-ownership:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpcfZzx8xY0

Salute!
Elias Alias
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: MamaLiberty on February 07, 2014, 06:43:19 am
One of my recent blog posts. Someone made the top statement, and this was my response.

This is a Public Service Announcement
Posted on February 3, 2014 by MamaLiberty   

“EVERY SINGLE AMERICAN CITIZEN HAS THE RIGHT TO CARRY A CONCEALED WEAPON”

Correction:

Every human being (or sentient being, if you want to get technical) has the absolute, inalienable AUTHORITY of self ownership, which includes the use of any tool whatsoever, for any purpose whatsoever. Every self owning individual ALSO has the absolute and inalienable AUTHORITY to defend themselves, by any means he/she finds necessary, from any other individual who offers credible threat of great harm or death.

No person or group of persons has any legitimate authority to decide anything different for any other individual.

This isn’t limited to “Americans,” and it isn’t limited to “concealed weapons” or even guns.

Just so you know… if you even wondered.
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: Bill St. Clair on February 07, 2014, 08:07:58 am
Every human being (or sentient being, if you want to get technical) has the absolute, inalienable AUTHORITY of self ownership, which includes the use of any tool whatsoever, for any purpose whatsoever. Every self owning individual ALSO has the absolute and inalienable AUTHORITY to defend themselves, by any means he/she finds necessary, from any other individual who offers credible threat of great harm or death.

No person or group of persons has any legitimate authority to decide anything different for any other individual.

This isn’t limited to “Americans,” and it isn’t limited to “concealed weapons” or even guns.

Nice one. Saved at https://billstclair.com/blog/quote_322.html
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: MamaLiberty on February 07, 2014, 08:20:56 am
Nice one. Saved at https://billstclair.com/blog/quote_322.html

Thanks. Yes, a little stark and would need plenty of voluntary cooperation for fallible human beings to live with, but it takes the non-aggression principle to the next logical level.  It explains why the NAP truly serves the best interest of individuals AND is "for the common good" in any society.

I was fairly surprised at the response to this among some of my "libertarian" friends.  The raw truth can be most uncomfortable for those who still think they can be "a little bit pregnant."
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: Elias Alias on February 07, 2014, 08:23:52 am
Heh! Sounds like you've got a solid perspective on self-ownership. Such knowledge is what the collectivists hate and fear, but it's a cat out of the bag and the idea is catching on.

;)

Salute!
Elias Alias
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on February 09, 2014, 08:29:47 am
Who Owns You?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpcfZzx8xY0
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on February 09, 2014, 08:32:19 am
I am constantly amazed at the arguments I get on Facebook from libertarians and voluntarists about the concept of self ownership in general. The same with the idea of "rights". The 2 are intertwined, of course.

Ragnar, check out this dissertation on self-ownership:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpcfZzx8xY0

Salute!
Elias Alias

Dang, I hadn't seen this before I posted the same link. I came across it on FB.
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: fruhmenschen on October 10, 2015, 09:03:15 am
The new documentary Sirius succinctly
answers the question.

see

Video for steven Greer london youtube▶ 2:09:54
www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xKwdnxGJuY
Sep 20, 2015 - Uploaded by Deano Woody
You are invited to join Dr. Steven Greer- founder of the world-wide Disclosure movement and ...
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: MamaLiberty on October 10, 2015, 10:51:58 am
The new documentary Sirius succinctly
answers the question.

There is no "answer" except what the individual finds/decides for himself.
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: fruhmenschen on October 13, 2015, 09:08:55 pm
The new documentary Sirius succinctly
answers the question.

There is no "answer" except what the individual finds/decides for himself.


unless you have visited

http://shadowproof.com/2015/10/12/wikileaks-us-government-plotted-to-kill-bolivian-president-evo-morales/
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: DiabloLoco on October 14, 2015, 05:38:13 am
The new documentary Sirius succinctly
answers the question.

There is no "answer" except what the individual finds/decides for himself.


unless you have visited

http://shadowproof.com/2015/10/12/wikileaks-us-government-plotted-to-kill-bolivian-president-evo-morales/
I have read the article, but I don't think that it has been posted here yet.

Just a word of advise- in the future, please include a short excerpt from the article and perhaps a short passage about your thoughts on it. Thanks! :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: SamCarter on April 16, 2016, 05:41:40 pm
It's too bad things can turn so bad if we try to teach the facts to our would be owners. Of course the state doesn't own us;  the people created the state.  How can the creature own the creator? But then again, I'm an old man and most times I don't feel like being shot, manhandled, or jailed to make the point to an ignorant servant.
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: MamaLiberty on April 17, 2016, 06:25:59 am
It's too bad things can turn so bad if we try to teach the facts to our would be owners. Of course the state doesn't own us;  the people created the state.  How can the creature own the creator? But then again, I'm an old man and most times I don't feel like being shot, manhandled, or jailed to make the point to an ignorant servant.

Thing is, neither you nor I "created the state." We just inherited the damned thing. I don't need or want any state "servants," whether they are ignorant or not. Unfortunately, we're not given the choice.
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: Jake on April 19, 2016, 12:46:19 am
We need an organized chorus to trim some of the weight off our inheritance . . . . . . . number should be near 51% of the pop
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: Eagle Eye on April 21, 2016, 05:34:24 am
We need an organized chorus to trim some of the weight off our inheritance . . . . . . . number should be near 51% of the pop

Amen to that.
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: da gooch on April 21, 2016, 11:54:07 am
We need an organized chorus to trim some of the weight off our inheritance . . . . . . . number should be near 51% of the pop

Amen to that.

May I point out that you have just placed yourselves on the same shelf as Pol Pot and Joseph Stalin?

Both of them only wanted to "trim some of the weight off our inheritance". In each case it involves murdering humans. 51%? you mean to kill of 49% of Americans so that Your idea of a "Free Country" can exist with internal peace?

How in Hades does that fit within the ZAP/NAP concept or even the "liberty and justice for all" concept?

Awaiting your answer with interest ...
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: Moonbeam on April 22, 2016, 02:43:59 pm
Thanks, Gooch. I was thinking this was eerily similar to what the Elite wants to do to us Mundanes. Of course, I believe their percentages are higher...
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: Jake on April 23, 2016, 01:07:10 am
We need an organized chorus to trim some of the weight off our inheritance . . . . . . . number should be near 51% of the pop

Amen to that.

May I point out that you have just placed yourselves on the same shelf as Pol Pot and Joseph Stalin?

Both of them only wanted to "trim some of the weight off our inheritance". In each case it involves murdering humans. 51%? you mean to kill of 49% of Americans so that Your idea of a "Free Country" can exist with internal peace?

How in Hades does that fit within the ZAP/NAP concept or even the "liberty and justice for all" concept?

Awaiting your answer with interest ...

I think that you miss the point. . . .or the range entirely.  The point was to have a stronger voice of many more to let the government more aware of their unwanted actions.  A Voice that is unison such as a chorus.

The clue is to read the posting just prior to mine by MamaLiberty.
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: da gooch on April 23, 2016, 07:10:48 pm
We need an organized chorus to trim some of the weight off our inheritance . . . . . . . number should be near 51% of the pop

Amen to that.

May I point out that you have just placed yourselves on the same shelf as Pol Pot and Joseph Stalin?

Both of them only wanted to "trim some of the weight off our inheritance". In each case it involves murdering humans. 51%? you mean to kill of 49% of Americans so that Your idea of a "Free Country" can exist with internal peace?

How in Hades does that fit within the ZAP/NAP concept or even the "liberty and justice for all" concept?

Awaiting your answer with interest ...

I think that you miss the point. . . .or the range entirely.  The point was to have a stronger voice of many more to let the government more aware of their unwanted actions.  A Voice that is unison such as a chorus.

The clue is to read the posting just prior to mine by MamaLiberty.

Ah

So when you say a "chorus" you mean "voices" raised in protest of the actions of the current administration?

If that is correct then I can agree with your observation BUT will not be holding my breath in hopes that it happens while I live. To remove unnecessary "public servants" from an already bloated govt. is a capitol idea. I read that as removing humans from the gene pool or constituency.
I think the "trim some of the weight off of our inheritance" is the line that led my paranoid mind right into the wrong line of thought. "number should be near 51% of the pop" The second half of your last post further lead me astray as the Commies of the one world order want to actually "reduce" the "pop" and they mean quite literally.
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: Jake on April 24, 2016, 11:59:47 am
da gooch,

We are on the same page. . . . I tend to used semantics in a wildly fashion.

 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: da gooch on April 26, 2016, 09:51:08 pm
da gooch,

We are on the same page. . . . I tend to used semantics in a wildly fashion.

 :thumbsup:

I will try to read them with my wilder eye. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: Jake on April 27, 2016, 12:48:53 am
. . and you have. :mellow:
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: ArcLighter on May 12, 2016, 10:16:07 am
Not enough posts, yet, to start a thread, so this seems a logical place for the Facebook/CIA whore owning participants & attempting to influence the mindless:

https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2016/05/12/facebook-cia-hillary-off-the-books-and-into-the-oval/
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: Rarick on May 12, 2016, 05:17:14 pm
Watching poets argue over word choice is like watching doves cry...
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: Theocrat on June 21, 2016, 07:00:38 am
God owns everyone... whether they want to admit it or not.
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: Jake on June 21, 2016, 08:45:10 am
Roger That!
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: DiabloLoco on June 21, 2016, 02:33:10 pm
 :lurk: :rolleyes: :thumbsdown:
Title: Re: Who Owns You?
Post by: Hurricane on January 02, 2017, 02:14:23 pm
This discussion reminds me of a quote from the tv series Crusade, a Babylon 5 spin-off.
"Who do you serve? And who do you trust?"
It comes in the opening credits.