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General Interest => General Discussion => Topic started by: David on October 26, 2009, 03:19:44 am

Title: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: David on October 26, 2009, 03:19:44 am
Excellent editorial from William N. Grigg,  it's past time for the oath keepers to put their money where their mouths are...



This presents Oath Keepers with a splendid PR opportunity that should become one of its most important ongoing campaigns: Why doesn't that organization reach out to another estimable group, Law Enforcement Against Prohibition, in demanding an end to the "war on drugs"?


Most of the unconscionable acts and policies the Oath Keepers oppose -- wholesale violation of individual rights, detentions, confiscations, civilian disarmament, militarization of domestic law enforcement -- are not a vague future possibility, but rather a tangible reality right now because of the "war on drugs."




http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2009/10/end-occupation-mission-for-oath-keepers.html
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: freewoman on October 26, 2009, 05:34:40 am
The article isn't bad.  However, methinks they're trying to jump on the bandwagon with too much luggage.  Oath Keepers has only been in existence since last March.  Why the demand that OK join with another group?  So the other group can benefit from OK's positive press? 

Oath Keepers is about reaching active duty and former military, law enforcement, and firefighters--anyone who's taken an oath to protect and defend the Constitution--to encourage them to keep their oath, and to remind them that they do not have to obey unlawful orders.  It is made up of a wide variety of people, from a wide variety of political perspectives.  To muddy the waters with too many causes will eventually destroy that primary message.

On a personal level, I do not support the War on (Some) Drugs.  And perhaps some members of Oath Keepers will agree with that stance.  But to demand that "it's past time for the oath keepers to put their money where their mouths are" is pretentious, to my mind.  Especially since the organization isn't even a year old.
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Bill St. Clair on October 26, 2009, 07:48:11 am
I still think there's something to be gained from helping at least the federal Oath Keepers to understand their oath better. Show me the section of the U.S. Constitution that allows drug possession and sale to be criminalized. Or a whole host of other "crimes" that the feds have invented out of whole cloth, with no Constitutional authority whatsoever, except a Commerce clause with so many loopholes that its gone beyond tattered to just a pile of threads, hemp threads, by the way.

When hemp was first renamed "marihuana", so that they could pass a stamp tax on it without alarming congress critters whose constituents made their living growing industrial hemp, they did it in a way that, though questionable, might pass Constitutional muster, a tax ( http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/hemp/taxact/mjtaxact.htm ). And alcohol prohibition was done as a Constitutional Amendment, because they knew that it wouldn't be Constitutional otherwise. Somehow, since then, we've allowed the feds to get away with criminalizing anything they please, Constitution be damned. And the courts don't allow challenges unless you've actually been harmed, i.e. placed yourself upon the rack by getting arrested and convicted for the newly-minted "crime". War is a racket, and the war on some drugs is the biggest racket on earth.

Unfortunately, most cops think it's not their problem to figure out which of the so-called "laws" they've been tasked with enforcing are Constitutional. "That's the job of the courts," they'll say, while merrily bashing your head for sitting in your own house smoking a nearly harmless weed.
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: freewoman on October 26, 2009, 08:17:03 am
Bill, I agree fully with your viewpoints.  But the organization is just getting started.  They need to have a chance to get going before too many causes get loaded onto them.  The idea that not all orders given to military personnel and LEOs are lawful is pretty earth-shattering to some folks.  Helping every Oath Keeper understand that they have the responsibility to determine which orders are lawful, and which are not, is a very big task, for the very reasons you mentioned--the attitude of "Constitution be damned" has been in place for a long time.  In the long run, though, I believe OK will be better served to teach the general principle of discerning an unlawful order, rather than focusing on a particular issue.  The whole goal of OK is to help oath takers understand their oath better.  I, for one, would rather see OK members gain a general understanding of what a lawful order is, and what an unlawful order is, so they can apply that information across the board.  To be sure, the War on (Some) Drugs is a very good example that can be used.  But it's also highly inflammatory, and will turn people off before the group gains traction.  (I am not saying that OK should back down because someone might be offended.  I am saying that ya gotta pick yer battles.)  Consciousness can be raised in a variety of ways. 
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Bill St. Clair on October 26, 2009, 08:39:12 am
Freewoman, makes sense. I think you're right that the concept of a duty to refuse to follow an illegal order is a lot for many oath takers to comprehend. Having a list of ten things that are easy to agree on is a good start.
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Bluelinegirl on October 26, 2009, 09:55:56 am
This reminds me of a time in the Army when I was given a direct order that I didnt agree with, I accepted the order but before carrying it out I went over his head. I felt like I was running and tattling to 'Daddy' but I did speak to our CO and told him that I had a concern. He listened to me without judgement and with full discretion spoke to my Sgt and changed the orders. I felt comfortable going to him no matter what, knowing that, in my heart, I had a concern. Genuine concern. Not a disagreement with authority or anything petty. I didnt take action against the order. I sought counsel from a higher up (kinda hard when the seemingly highest up is the most corupt and vendictive), but I believe our Military can and must stop this takeover.  Our Government is issuing bad orders! And 'We the People,' the SUPREME AUTHORITY, disagree.  'We the People' are The Supreme Authority. Im going to head over to Military dot com and ask them when they are going to answer to us and Join the Oathkeepers. Join me.
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Silver on October 26, 2009, 06:51:23 pm
I think Grigg has a point, and I don't expect the Oathkeepers to comply.

The organization simply reeks with hypocrisy.  Where where these folks 2001-2008?  Where where they when we invaded a foreign country and murdered half a million people?  Where where they when W was wiretapping literally everyone?  I could ask these questions and many more but I know I won't get an answer.  It was OK when the party that favors war and violence was in charge, but now that the party that prefers welfare and violence is in power, the enforcers are antsy. 

Some argue that we should embrace those who are beginning to realize what is going on.  I'll embrace any one of them - after they quit their job and find a way to make a living that doesn't involve taking taxpayer loot or killing people as SOP.

From their website:

Quote
We will NOT obey orders to conduct warrantless searches of the American people
unless it's TSA shakedowns at airports and bus staions, random searches at subway stations, drug dogs and property confiscation at checkpoints or traffic stops, or warrantless wiretaps of the entire nation.

Quote
We will NOT obey orders to detain American citizens as “unlawful enemy combatants” or to subject them to military tribunal.
Ever hear of Jose Padilla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Padilla_(prisoner))?  American citizen.  Detained as unlawful enemy combatant.  Tortured into deep psychosis by the US Navy.  Too late for oathkeepers.

Quote
We will NOT obey orders to impose martial law or a “state of emergency” on a state.
  Unless that state has people who look different and speak a different language.  Then we'll come in like gangbusters, literally shooting everything that moves.

Quote
We will NOT obey orders to invade and subjugate any state that asserts its sovereignty.
Unless the state is named Iraq, or Afganistan, or Serbia, or Iran, or....

Quote
We will NOT obey any orders to confiscate the property of the American people, including food and other essential supplies.
Unless that property is money to pay for Oathkeepers salaries, health plans, retirement benefits, and high-tech weapons.  Then it's OK.

Quote
We will NOT obey any orders which infringe on the right of the people to free speech, to peaceably assemble, and to petition their government for a redress of grievances.
  Except when it's W, the G20, or any other VIP, and the orders are to force protestors into pens called "free speech zones."  Or if the free speech happens to be a blog highlighting the criminal activities of the enforcers.  Then anything goes.

Give me a break.  These people picked jobs where they can beat and kill others.  They are good at what they do.  They will keep doing it. When push comes to shove, they will do what enforcers have always done - beat and kill for whomever is paying them.

Peace,

Silver
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: gaurdduck on October 26, 2009, 08:37:51 pm
Hmmm...
Is Oathkeeper's effecting positive change?
Or is all of it just to make its members feel good about themselves?

No offense to those who are real Oathkeeper's. Just to the hypocrites.
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: jamie on October 26, 2009, 09:46:45 pm
 What Silver is saying has been brought up before.   There is never an answer, acknowledgement or discussion of the point.  If anyone actually reads the Grigg article as was posted here and I posted yesterday, there are blatant and on going law enforcement abuses happening everywhere.  One would think these outrages are unconstitutional and would fit with the oath-keeper mission. 






   
   a few bad apples
« on: October 25, 2009, 12:04:24 PM »
   
Reply with quote Modify message Remove message
http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2009/10/end-occupation-mission-for-oath-keepers.html

From the excellent blog Pro Libertate  by William Norman Grigg


Deputies assigned to narcotics duty committed a string of crimes, some of them acts of state-sponsored terrorism -- such as fire-bombing homes of suspected drug dealers, or hiring arsonists to burn down the homes of personal enemies. On one occasion, a deputy doused a recalcitrant suspect with lighter fluid and set him on fire. Drug dealers who cooperated were protected from prosecution; one was even given a gun and a police uniform and permitted to take part in a raid.


I guess this kind of behavior is outside the Oath-Keeper mission, nothing unconstitutional here. Just a few bad apples.


OTOH from reader comments...    When you feel the need to take an oath to uphold your oath, it's time to change to an honest profession.
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Bluelinegirl on October 26, 2009, 11:46:32 pm

Some argue that we should embrace those who are beginning to realize what is going on.  I'll embrace any one of them - after they quit their job and find a way to make a living that doesn't involve taking taxpayer loot or killing people as SOP.

[/end quote]

*arms open wide waiting for my hug*  I did not like what Bush did but I had no idea about what is really going on. I think my head was up the arse of the Ostrich in front of me! I loved my own four walls and to each other, his own. I still will not carry my neighbor, I might pick him up and give him a red pill, but each must walk his own. I dont remember the first red pill I took... but im sure it was handed to me. I have lots of red pills to share with my fellows. One sheeple at a time. And for the record, I sure do miss that big screen!
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Bluelinegirl on October 27, 2009, 12:00:10 am
And regarding the crimes that are being committed today against us and our Constitution, I cannot speak for the rest of the Oathkeepers as I am awaiting an answer to that question myself (much as I have asked many of you here). Ive asked many and often, when are we going to act..... As for my part, im doing the best I can. And I have never taken arms against another, foreign or domestic. I am a protector at heart. I fight with the weapons God gives me.  The Oathkeepers are not active duty or vets, they are all of us. Including you if you want to fight for our Country, that is your Oath, should you choose to accept it.
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: 2ndA on October 27, 2009, 01:33:20 am
Some people are simply never happy.  If it wasn't done when they wanted it done in the way they wanted it done according to their opinion then by god it's all hypocrisy.

So where were you, Silver, or anyone else for that matter?  Where was YOUR organization?  What did you do?  Post on a message board?  Gripe about everyone else?

People do what they can when they can.  If it's not good enough for you then do something better.  If you haven't and can't then either help those who are or get the hell out of the way.  Any fool can run someone else down.

Feh
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Plinker-MS on October 27, 2009, 01:53:39 am
I, for one, think that Oath Keepers is a brilliant idea, and the charges of hypocrisy come from people who don't understand the strategy.

Just take a look at the "10 Orders We Will Not Obey"

http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2009/03/03/declaration-of-orders-we-will-not-obey/

1. We will NOT obey any order to disarm the American people.

2. We will NOT obey any order to conduct warrantless searches of the American people, their homes, vehicles, papers, or effects -- such as warrantless house-to house searches for weapons or persons.

3. We will NOT obey any order to detain American citizens as “unlawful enemy combatants” or to subject them to trial by military tribunal.

4. We will NOT obey orders to impose martial law or a “state of emergency” on a state, or to enter with force into a state, without the express consent and invitation of that state’s legislature and governor.

... and so on.


The beauty of this list is that promising NOT to obey hypothetical orders to disarm the American people, confiscate their property, and put them in concentration camps puts the "anti-OathKeepers" (notably the SPLC and the elements of the Department of Homeland Security who want to brand everybody and their cousin as an "extremist") in the position of defending the indefensible.   "Um... what difference does it make if cops and soldiers promise not to round up American citizens and blockade American cities?  Surely you don't think that that would *ever* be a good idea?"

It doesn't stop there, of course.   Several of those "10 orders" have indeed been issued (and obeyed) in recent memory, under the Clinton, Bush, and Obama administrations, with disastrous results.  Some of those orders are not just issued from time to time, but are Standard Operating Procedure in the War on Drugs, and other wars.

I think things will get interesting when people who promise not to obey "bad" orders put 2 and 2 together and realize that such orders are not always hypothetical, and don't only come from Democrats.  IMHO, it is better if they come to that realization themselves.    Having the OK organization take an official position such as Mr. Grigg seems to be recommending risks becoming "just another advocacy group".



(disclaimer - I am not an OathKeeper,  but I did join the military when I was young and foolish, and got out while the getting was good.)
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Undefined on October 27, 2009, 02:08:08 am
I, for one, think that Oath Keepers is a brilliant idea, and the charges of hypocrisy come from people who don't understand the strategy.

Just take a look at the "10 Orders We Will Not Obey"

http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2009/03/03/declaration-of-orders-we-will-not-obey/

1. We will NOT obey any order to disarm the American people.

2. We will NOT obey any order to conduct warrantless searches of the American people, their homes, vehicles, papers, or effects -- such as warrantless house-to house searches for weapons or persons.

3. We will NOT obey any order to detain American citizens as “unlawful enemy combatants” or to subject them to trial by military tribunal.

4. We will NOT obey orders to impose martial law or a “state of emergency” on a state, or to enter with force into a state, without the express consent and invitation of that state’s legislature and governor.

... and so on.


The beauty of this list is that promising NOT to obey hypothetical orders to disarm the American people, confiscate their property, and put them in concentration camps puts the "anti-OathKeepers" (notably the SPLC and the elements of the Department of Homeland Security who want to brand everybody and their cousin as an "extremist") in the position of defending the indefensible.   "Um... what difference does it make if cops and soldiers promise not to round up American citizens and blockade American cities?  Surely you don't think that that would *ever* be a good idea?"

It doesn't stop there, of course.   Several of those "10 orders" have indeed been issued (and obeyed) in recent memory, under the Clinton, Bush, and Obama administrations, with disastrous results.  Some of those orders are not just issued from time to time, but are Standard Operating Procedure in the War on Drugs, and other wars.

I think things will get interesting when people who promise not to obey "bad" orders put 2 and 2 together and realize that such orders are not always hypothetical, and don't only come from Democrats.  IMHO, it is better if they come to that realization themselves.    Having the OK organization take an official position such as Mr. Grigg seems to be recommending risks becoming "just another advocacy group".



(disclaimer - I am not an OathKeeper,  but I did join the military when I was young and foolish, and got out while the getting was good.)

This is pretty much how I see it and why I like the organization despite not caring a whit about the Constitution.

Like Silver, though, I do wonder how many will 'keep their oath' when TSHTF (in the common usage). I suppose the answer is, like most things, 'We'll see.'

Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Elias Alias on October 27, 2009, 02:52:32 am
Alright. It's now after midnight, and as I type this it's 1:11 a.m., morning of October 27, 2009. I left Las Vegas yesterday morning at about 10:00 a.m., and drove from Vegas back to Montana. Got in just before midnight, a little over an hour ago. Hit a snowstorm at the Butte pass while headed east on I-90, and had to take that pass at ten miles per hour in hard-blowing snow which had already placed four inches of snow on the highway. I'm bushed, and I'm elated to have attended the national Oath Keepers conference in Las Vegas at the "Texas Station" casino/hotel.

I have one word to the wise on this thread. Before assaulting Oath Keepers, why not sit back, take a deep breath, relax a bit, and mull over some ideas which could help clarify in anyone's mind the great advantage to our society which Oath Keepers offers. There are several reasons why I'm suggesting all critics of Oath Keepers here at this board cool their jets before making fools of themselves. The first reason is that anyone who has criticism of Oath Keepers would do better to support our mission rather than insult and attack us. Before I'm through with the critics posting on this thread, the foolishness of detractors is going to become quite apparent.

Now let me ask all who know me on this board to explain to me publicly how it may be that, in your opinion, I'm now engaged in a futile and benign movement which will do nothing to alleviate our current domestic problems, such as the War on Drugs and general police corruption. Anyone who knows me should already know that I have opposed the War on Drugs openly and vehemently. The records of that are in six years worth of posting on this board, and I do believe that no one who has been around this place for any considerable time would dream of accusing me of being sympathetic with the unlawful behavior of rogue police departments and individual cops and the military escapades abroad (and domestically).

Having said that, I'll next state that I've been opposing the War on Drugs and the illegal invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan for years, long before the current Democrat President campaigned for and won the White House. Anybody disagree with that statement? Anybody here want to accuse me of giving G.W. Bush a pass on his sins and crimes? Anybody here want to accuse me of being soft on police corruption? Didn't think so.

So where does that put me now in anybody's mind when it comes to my participation in Oath Keepers? Can anyone here challenge my very public stance as a Freedom Outlaw and a Voluntaryist-Anarchist with a personal commitment to fight against Federal tyranny in this country of ours? I'm inviting anybody here, especially anybody who's read my writings on these very boards for the past six years, to sit down and discuss these issues with me directly. I can quickly answer all the criticisms I've thus far seen on this thread, and I'm glad to do so.

First, a metaphor....

The woodsman approaches the wall of tall trees at forest edge. He selects the first tree to fell. He begins by swinging powerfully his ax with a downward blow to the trunk of that tree. He next swings an upward swing with the blade of his ax hitting just below the cut from his previous swing. The two swings of his ax have now created a chipped-out horizontally-oriented "V" slot in the side of the tree.

But the tree doesn't fall. He will have to make more swings with his ax, widening and deepening the cut with each subsequent swing. Eventually, after much chopping with his ax, he will fell the tree where he wants it to land.

But before he can complete the ax-strokes, his detractors who are idly watching with doubtful eyes from behind him complain that his strokes into the tree's trunk are not effective, are not going to accomplish anything, take too long, or any other similar critique. Meanwhile, the woodsman continues to swing in spite of the criticism, and finally he vanquishes his detractors by felling the tree.

That's the metaphor. Apply as desired to this thread, and please engage me in a discussion about Oath Keepers. I am a member of the Board of Oath Keepers and am the Director for the State of Montana. Tuesday night, at the Bozeman, Montana public library on Main Street, I'll be giving a film showing of the Michael New story, followed by a panel discussion with q & a. Between now and that event tonight I have to drive to pick up my first issue of my new newspaper, The Montana Messenger, and begin distribution of it - and I also have to prepare my notes for the event in town. I'll be busy, as I generally am these days. So I may not reply as swiftly as anyone may wish, but I promise I'll address every single point brought up here on this thread. And I'm very proudly declaring that I can present a precise and definitive answer to anyone's criticism of any topic relative to Oath Keepers. Meanwhile, I'd advise anyone wanting to belittle Oath Keepers to look a bit more deeply into our mission and into our approach to fulfilling that mission.

One question for openers - if Oath Keepers is a futile, benign, and ineffective organization, why in hell would SPLC and Chris Matthews be attacking us so rigorously? Why would Fedgov care what we're saying, if it doesn't pose to them a very serious problem? There is some truth in that reflection, so consider my question carefully.

When I return to this thread I'll bring some surprising tidbits from our conference, and I'm thinking right now with a smile that what I've got to report shall quell our detractors nicely. :)

Meanwhile, Bill St.Clair has kindly furnished a link to the videography composed by the Las Vegas Journal Review, and I'd like to invite all here to check this out - http://www.youtube.com/user/OathKeepersOK#p/a/0/hP6gKUqDLvM

I'll close by noting that freewoman is right - picking our battles is our prerogative, and is a good tactic, as we shall see.

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Silver on October 27, 2009, 03:15:27 am
What I did and do is my business but it was not confined to posting or griping.  If there ever comes a day when speaking truth accomplishes nothing more than bringing down the wrath of the enforcers I'll recite my accomplishments and compare them to anyone here.  I'm not concerned about that reckoning.

What I won't do and have never done is put on a government costume and imagine that the laws of morality have changed.  What I have done is renounce the use of violence and coercion to achieve my personal goals.  I will employ violence only to protect my life and property and that of those few people I cherish against agression.  That means I won't stuff my craw full of taxpayer loot, even when it is offered freely, even on the most pleasant and delightful of terms.  I will make my way in this world by voluntary trade with other free men. 

The Oathkeepers claim to be an "association of currently serving military, veterans, peace officers, and firefighters."  With the possible exception of those few veterans who will not be asked to obey new orders, then every oathkeeper, every day, violates one of their own "10 orders we will not obey."  "We will NOT obey any orders to confiscate the property of the American people, " is a damned lie.  Active-duty oathkeepers quite literaly make their living on confiscated property.  They may not have the stomach to do the stealing face-to-face, but every thin dime in their pocket was taken by force from a productive citizen.

Quote
Modern war and oppression are carried out by a long chain of individuals, each doing his or her job meticulously while simultaneously refusing to look at the end results of his or her work. There is no state or corporate evil that is not the result of personal sinfulness.
Rev. Emmanuel Charles McCarthy (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/mccarthy5.html)

To the extent that the Oathkeepers are an association of currently serving military, police, and firefighters then their ranks are filled with soldiers occupying foreign nations or militarized enforcers occupying American cities and towns.  Each and every one does their job meticulously.  Their true allegiance is to their comrades, not to the constitution, which the commander the OK's happily obeyed correctly characterized a "just a goddamned peace of paper."

To expect people who must twist their moral compass off its hinges in order to make their daily bread to suddenly develop a functioning concience when there is blood in the streets is folly.  When the Catholics under Father McCarthy's care were ordered to murder hundreds of thousands of women and children, including entire convents of Catholic nuns, neither they nor their chaplain objected.  Only after he had walked through the rubble and confronted the results of his own actions did he realize his errors.

It will be the same today.  Oathkeepers will swear their mighty oaths, but they will still drop the bombs, rape the children, shoot the women, burn the villages, steal the money, take the guns, confiscate the hoarded food, and above all else obey their orders and support their comrades.  Perhaps a few will realize in hindsight the enormity of their crimes.  But any that presently possess the intellect and self-awarness to contemplate the utter immorality of their actions have already laid down their arms and walked away from the madness.

Elias, I respect you and have read your writings for many years.  Your efforts on behalf of freedom are many and praiseworthy.  If you feel that working on the Oathkeepers is a sound strategy, it is not my place to question your thinking.  I will point out that you are a perfect example of the few who realized after the fact what was right and true, took off your costume, and walked away.  You make your living as a free man and not a tax eater.  An army of like-minded folk would be formidable indeed.

To the extent that the "strategy" is to gently lead Oathkeepers to take an honest look in the mirror, the program may have some utility.  But that strategy will be effective only to the extent that it causes Oathkeepers to strip off their costumes and renounce violence as a way of life.  In other words, it may thin the ranks of oppressors, and particularly the enforcers.  That is why the government mouthpieces are squawking.  But when the bayonets are fixed, they will be used to stir the guts of women and children, oaths to the contrary.

Peace,

Silver
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: gaurdduck on October 27, 2009, 03:18:09 am

Some argue that we should embrace those who are beginning to realize what is going on.  I'll embrace any one of them - after they quit their job and find a way to make a living that doesn't involve taking taxpayer loot or killing people as SOP.

[/end quote]

*arms open wide waiting for my hug*  I did not like what Bush did but I had no idea about what is really going on. I think my head was up the arse of the Ostrich in front of me! I loved my own four walls and to each other, his own. I still will not carry my neighbor, I might pick him up and give him a red pill, but each must walk his own. I don't remember the first red pill I took... but im sure it was handed to me. I have lots of red pills to share with my fellows. One sheeple at a time. And for the record, I sure do miss that big screen!


"Why oh why, didn't I take the blue pill?!" ~evil traitorous scum-bag

I don't do pills, but my first glass of red herbal tea was given to me by an article about pot written by John Silviera.
It just made sense. It is just a plant after all.



I, for one, think that Oath Keepers is a brilliant idea, and the charges of hypocrisy come from people who don't understand the strategy.

Just take a look at the "10 Orders We Will Not Obey"

http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2009/03/03/declaration-of-orders-we-will-not-obey/

1. We will NOT obey any order to disarm the American people.

2. We will NOT obey any order to conduct warrantless searches of the American people, their homes, vehicles, papers, or effects -- such as warrantless house-to house searches for weapons or persons.

3. We will NOT obey any order to detain American citizens as “unlawful enemy combatants” or to subject them to trial by military tribunal.

4. We will NOT obey orders to impose martial law or a “state of emergency” on a state, or to enter with force into a state, without the express consent and invitation of that state’s legislature and governor.

... and so on.


The beauty of this list is that promising NOT to obey hypothetical orders to disarm the American people, confiscate their property, and put them in concentration camps puts the "anti-OathKeepers" (notably the SPLC and the elements of the Department of Homeland Security who want to brand everybody and their cousin as an "extremist") in the position of defending the indefensible.   "Um... what difference does it make if cops and soldiers promise not to round up American citizens and blockade American cities?  Surely you don't think that that would *ever* be a good idea?"

It doesn't stop there, of course.   Several of those "10 orders" have indeed been issued (and obeyed) in recent memory, under the Clinton, Bush, and Obama administrations, with disastrous results.  Some of those orders are not just issued from time to time, but are Standard Operating Procedure in the War on Drugs, and other wars.

I think things will get interesting when people who promise not to obey "bad" orders put 2 and 2 together and realize that such orders are not always hypothetical, and don't only come from Democrats.  IMHO, it is better if they come to that realization themselves.    Having the OK organization take an official position such as Mr. Grigg seems to be recommending risks becoming "just another advocacy group".



(disclaimer - I am not an OathKeeper,  but I did join the military when I was young and foolish, and got out while the getting was good.)

This is pretty much how I see it and why I like the organization despite not caring a whit about the Constitution.

Like Silver, though, I do wonder how many will 'keep their oath' when TSHTF (in the common usage). I suppose the answer is, like most things, 'We'll see.'



I also generally like the organization. I would have been a member if I had been allowed
to join the Marines when I tried to in High School. I had medical issues and couldn't pass
the physical. My Brother was kept out of the Airforce for very similar reasons. I have a
minor bone deformity, and he can't see well without his glasses. Now though, I would
not join for a million dollars. Even if I could. Forgive me if I stepped on any toes, it is
in my nature to question everything.
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: freewoman on October 27, 2009, 05:43:55 am
I would like to reiterate one important point:  Oath Keepers was started in March of 2009.  Last March, folks.  Not even a year ago.  I find it difficult to believe that the Oath Keepers organization is responsible for events that happened before it was created.  Or that the Oath Keepers organization is responsible for the actions of everyone who ever took an oath to protect and defend the Constitution.  Oath Keepers is a voluntary association.  I agree that we'll have to wait and see how the members respond in a crisis.  But that's true for anyone.
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: 2ndA on October 27, 2009, 09:34:34 am
Some people are not complaining that OK is responsible per se.  they are griping that it was not created at the time they think it should have been.  But then they are also griping about the fact it is created by men and women who did and do serve this nation in an official capacity.  As such, it really would seem to not matter when it was created since they'd still be bitching about it.
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Bluelinegirl on October 27, 2009, 10:13:30 am
Oath Keepers Membership
You do NOT have to be an official member to take part in our activities or to help us spread the message.  Official membership is optional.  Members receive a membership certificate suitable for framing, a membership card, an outreach materials package, and other benefits. Membership is open to anyone (though our focus is on military, reserves, National Guard, police, fire-fighter and veterans, those who are not current or prior service can still be an Oath Keeper – as a citizen who supports our mission).

Any American feeling the call of duty to support and defend the Constitution can join.

'I pledge Allegiance, to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation, under God, indivisible with Liberty and Justice for All.'
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: freewoman on October 27, 2009, 10:47:35 am
Technically speaking, Silver is correct.  Taxation is theft.  The military exists due to taxation.  Therefore, it can be extrapolated that the military is illegal.  From a pragmatic viewpoint, however, one ends up slapping down others before they have the opportunity to gain a similar level of consciousness, and then do something about it.  The "10 Orders" are threads of consciousness that are being woven into the fabric of the mindset of the military and LEO constituency.  This consciousness then has the opportunity to grow. 

I have read a lot of the testimonies posted on the OK website.  I have gone through the forum and commentaries for each state and the D.C., as listed on the website.  After several hours of reading, I can say that the "10 Orders" meme is taking effect.  People who have already awakened--mostly former serving military who echo the words of Steve Mason (paraphrasing here--can't find the exact quote on the fly!):  "Old soldiers find out too late whom they have really served"--are encouraging others to follow suit.  Other individuals are coming to similar realizations. 

The raising of consciousness is not always a rapid or simple process.  To dismiss the entire idea because it hasn't come to a high enough level is a bit premature.  Give it some time.

In the end, each individual comes to his or her own interpretation of everything.  No one has ever said that everyone on TMM has to agree with Oath Keepers.  To label someone negatively because they disagree is not appropriate.

BTW, I do support Oath Keepers, but I do not pledge allegiance to the flag.  However, that's a topic for other threads, which have already been started (see the Freedom's Spirit part of the forum).
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Bluelinegirl on October 27, 2009, 11:27:15 am
Freewoman, I do not believe it is off topic as I meant to say that we all took an Oath, a Pledge of Allegiance, whether to our current flag or one representing what we believe America was meant to be. As to owing an Allegiance to 'The Republic,' 19 generations of my family have shed sweat and blood for her, and thats an Oath I am proud to keep.
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: WWalker on October 27, 2009, 02:34:25 pm
One must make a distinction between an Oath Taker and an Oath Keeper.

Only an educated Oath Taker can become an Oath Keeper.
 
Enter, Oath Keepers, the organization.
Anyone is welcome to participate (or not) in our mission to "reach, teach, and inspire" all Oath Takers to become Oath Keepers.
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Jarel on October 28, 2009, 01:31:37 am
What I did and do is my business but it was not confined to posting or griping.  If there ever comes a day when speaking truth accomplishes nothing more than bringing down the wrath of the enforcers I'll recite my accomplishments and compare them to anyone here.  I'm not concerned about that reckoning.

What I won't do and have never done is put on a government costume and imagine that the laws of morality have changed.  What I have done is renounce the use of violence and coercion to achieve my personal goals.  I will employ violence only to protect my life and property and that of those few people I cherish against agression.  That means I won't stuff my craw full of taxpayer loot, even when it is offered freely, even on the most pleasant and delightful of terms.  I will make my way in this world by voluntary trade with other free men. 

The Oathkeepers claim to be an "association of currently serving military, veterans, peace officers, and firefighters."  With the possible exception of those few veterans who will not be asked to obey new orders, then every oathkeeper, every day, violates one of their own "10 orders we will not obey."  "We will NOT obey any orders to confiscate the property of the American people, " is a damned lie.  Active-duty oathkeepers quite literaly make their living on confiscated property.  They may not have the stomach to do the stealing face-to-face, but every thin dime in their pocket was taken by force from a productive citizen.

Quote
Modern war and oppression are carried out by a long chain of individuals, each doing his or her job meticulously while simultaneously refusing to look at the end results of his or her work. There is no state or corporate evil that is not the result of personal sinfulness.
Rev. Emmanuel Charles McCarthy (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/mccarthy5.html)

To the extent that the Oathkeepers are an association of currently serving military, police, and firefighters then their ranks are filled with soldiers occupying foreign nations or militarized enforcers occupying American cities and towns.  Each and every one does their job meticulously.  Their true allegiance is to their comrades, not to the constitution, which the commander the OK's happily obeyed correctly characterized a "just a goddamned peace of paper."

To expect people who must twist their moral compass off its hinges in order to make their daily bread to suddenly develop a functioning concience when there is blood in the streets is folly.  When the Catholics under Father McCarthy's care were ordered to murder hundreds of thousands of women and children, including entire convents of Catholic nuns, neither they nor their chaplain objected.  Only after he had walked through the rubble and confronted the results of his own actions did he realize his errors.

It will be the same today.  Oathkeepers will swear their mighty oaths, but they will still drop the bombs, rape the children, shoot the women, burn the villages, steal the money, take the guns, confiscate the hoarded food, and above all else obey their orders and support their comrades.  Perhaps a few will realize in hindsight the enormity of their crimes.  But any that presently possess the intellect and self-awarness to contemplate the utter immorality of their actions have already laid down their arms and walked away from the madness.

Elias, I respect you and have read your writings for many years.  Your efforts on behalf of freedom are many and praiseworthy.  If you feel that working on the Oathkeepers is a sound strategy, it is not my place to question your thinking.  I will point out that you are a perfect example of the few who realized after the fact what was right and true, took off your costume, and walked away.  You make your living as a free man and not a tax eater.  An army of like-minded folk would be formidable indeed.

To the extent that the "strategy" is to gently lead Oathkeepers to take an honest look in the mirror, the program may have some utility.  But that strategy will be effective only to the extent that it causes Oathkeepers to strip off their costumes and renounce violence as a way of life.  In other words, it may thin the ranks of oppressors, and particularly the enforcers.  That is why the government mouthpieces are squawking.  But when the bayonets are fixed, they will be used to stir the guts of women and children, oaths to the contrary.

Peace,

Silver
I believe you generalize not so accurately as you'd like to believe, friend. Meanness disguised?:ph34r:
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: jamie on October 28, 2009, 12:25:59 pm
 I have put on more than one government costume and I agree with Silver.  History agrees with Silver.

He has what used to be called righteous anger. 
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: freewoman on October 28, 2009, 12:35:44 pm
I do not disagree with Silver.  But what is history?  Merely a carefully-chosen array of viewpoints and opinions, with a few dates and times and places thrown in to make it look "objective".  And who says there are not aspects of "history" that were shaped by the sharing of an alternative?  I can think of several examples.

I welcome the day when the costumes created by society are removed.  I encourage anyone who's in the process of doing so right now.  And I believe Oath Keepers can be part of that process. 
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Jarel on October 28, 2009, 12:55:39 pm
"It will be the same today.  Oathkeepers will swear their mighty oaths, but they will still drop the bombs, rape the children, shoot the women, burn the villages, steal the money, take the guns, confiscate the hoarded food, and above all else obey their orders and support their comrades.  Perhaps a few will realize in hindsight the enormity of their crimes.  But any that presently possess the intellect and self-awareness to contemplate the utter immorality of their actions have already laid down their arms and walked away from the madness."--Silver
I would like to think that Oathkeepers won't be the ones doing these things, friends, only the ones who don't understand the effect of their actions. Though there are aspects of this position I agree with; most of us in OK are people who from time to time say to ourselves, "if only I knew then, I wouldn't have done that". One thing I'd like to see done in OK is the education of our soldiers on who's really pulling the strings, and why. Informed people make informed choices,...
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: jamie on October 28, 2009, 01:19:29 pm
Oath-Keepers might be a noble effort. The Elias tree chopping metaphor might turn out to be true. We will see. I agree with Spooner but that doesn't mean I am not an Oath-Keeper.

There is a  super patriot, love it or leave it, religious, immigrant hatred, totalitarian  right wing strain in Oath-Keepers. I would like them to be about freedom, but that's not going to happen the way I would like.    So I take what I can get,  I would have allied with the communist partisans in Yugoslavia in 1942.  


 The people on the receiving end of the Einsatzgruppen in Russia in 1942 couldn't afford an intellectual view of history.  The Hondurans getting gassed and beaten down now can't either.

Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: freewoman on October 28, 2009, 01:57:28 pm
I agree that the super-patriot, neo-con element is connecting itself to OK.  They're also present in the Tea Parties, and in many other endeavors, along with people who truly desire freedom.  One has to decide for his/herself if that's a deal-breaker or not.

In my view, the "intellectual view of history" is the one espoused by the "party line"; the type of history that's written by the victors.  Real history is what one makes it to be; it's experiential in nature.  Those who are being persecuted don't care about any type of history; they only care about ending the persecution.
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Jimbo on October 28, 2009, 03:15:05 pm
 Joined Oathkeepers.
The following are my opinions and mine only. I cannot sum up every last detail in a few key strokes, but this should let you know where I'm coming from:

Do we need a military? Yes. Ghenghis Khan, Mao, and Hitler were let out of the bag a long time ago. Any people that doesn't have the organized and unorganized means to defend itself deserves to perish. Idealism won't protect you from wolves who intend to devour you.

Navy, as permitted by the U.S. Constitution. Air Force, we should keep it and amend the constitution to do so. Army, primarily National Guard based to avoid tyranny of standing Armies AND to keep from being Legions for Leviathan. No NATO, no entangling military alliances/treaties, no UN missions and no nation building. Like Smedley Butler said, defense for our territory and Bill of Rights. All of this should be voluntarily funded. If you opt out of funding, fine and good, but no disaster relief or rescue for you should the need arise.

Draft, limited return to it. The children & grand children of politicos would be drafted and placed in combat & combat service and support units where they would be shot at should war be declared.

 
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Elias Alias on October 28, 2009, 05:14:54 pm
What I did and do is my business but it was not confined to posting or griping.  If there ever comes a day when speaking truth accomplishes nothing more than bringing down the wrath of the enforcers I'll recite my accomplishments and compare them to anyone here.  I'm not concerned about that reckoning.

Totally agree with you, Silver. I've nothing but keen respect for all the liberty-oriented work you've done, and I'm very proud that you've been a member at this forum for many years, spreading your insightful experience and wisdom freely. You've been a powerful voice for reason here. I truly appreciate that. And guess what - there's no "but" to follow what I just said. I highly respect you. No "but".

Quote

It will be the same today.  Oathkeepers will swear their mighty oaths, but they will still drop the bombs, rape the children, shoot the women, burn the villages, steal the money, take the guns, confiscate the hoarded food, and above all else obey their orders and support their comrades.  Perhaps a few will realize in hindsight the enormity of their crimes.  But any that presently possess the intellect and self-awarness to contemplate the utter immorality of their actions have already laid down their arms and walked away from the madness.

I must challenge you on two points here. First, as you stated that "Oathkeepers will swear their mighty oaths, but....", that is not true in my vision of this. I would prefer to qualify that statement by you by changing the word "Oathkeepers" with the words "Oath Takers". All service personnel take the oath, but very few indeed become Oath Keepers in action, in reality. The great difference between being a mere Oath Taker and becoming a true "Oath Keeper" is one of the key goals of Oath Keepers as an organization. At the film screening Oath Keepers held last night in Bozeman, our film was the story of Michael New. Michael New was one man in a battalion of service members numbering 550 troops. When ordered under President Clinton to wear the UN uniform (the blue beret, etc.), Michael New refused on Constitutional grounds.  Four hundred forty-nine troops blindly followed that unlawful order, while only one troop refused to follow the order. Michael New was an Oath Keeper fourteen years before Oath Keepers was formed as an organization. Such tidbits of our American military history show clearly the great need for the Oath Keepers mission. Our mission is to "reach, teach, and inspire all Oath Takers to become Oath Keepers".  More on the 449 vs 1 shortly.

Secondly, men of conscience, especially such men  who also have studied history and have a passion for philosophy, come invariably to the conclusion that the life of a soldier in a standing army has much to indict it, inherently.  Yet there is something very honorable about any man who would take up arms to defend his people and country. Where the problem comes in is at the level of command. When the level of highest command is corrupt, it is impossible for that corruption to stay isolated at the top of the chain of command, and the following degradation of the nobility inherent in a patriotic young man's willingness to be his people's defender is almost unavoidable, and to avoid sharing in the corruption any soldier will face the grave dangers exposed in the Michael New story. I am in perfect agreement with you on the morality of wearing "costumes" given by the state to willing dupes who're trained to follow any order coming down the chain of command. But - I question your premise and beg to contemplate an alternative to remain in uniform and use oneself as a deterrent to the fulfillment (or following) of unlawful orders. That is what Michael New did, and as his story continues to spread across our land, his plight is becoming more widely known within military circles, and it gives soldiers today some basis for reflection upon their own standards, individually.  I am saying that it is important to have "moles" inside the military, and by "moles" I'm meaning strong individuals who have the guts to question unlawful orders and stand down instead of blindly "following orders".  The purpose of Oath Keepers is to reach receptive military and law enforcement personnel with the truth behind their oaths, and to show them clearly that they are needed right now to stand against tyranny coming down from the apex of their chain of command. Our success in this mission would provide a buffer between a rogue government which might order our troops to violate our enumerated rights in the Constitution and the actual carrying out of such unlawful orders. In other words, a man of conscience can be a powerful worker for liberty, truth, and justice by retaining his uniformed status within the military, and if Oath Keepers can get even ten percent of all troops to understand the true meaning contained within that oath, then the powers of corruption which dictate all orders down the chain of command would be much more hesitant to give orders which they're not certain their troops would carry out.

I agree that for some contemplative souls the only choice is to throw off the costume and return to honorable work elsewhere during corrupt and abusive times. But I also would like to suggest that other men of similar views might find a way to serve more effectively by standing, in uniform, against the corruption, thusly interdicting the awesome power of the military establishment which has during recent decades been abused by each successive President with foreign, undeclared "wars".  I would like to see all readers here come to understand the value in having conscientious soldiers understand the meaning in the oath and make our stand to support those brave soldiers like Michael New. Please pass this story around - http://www.mikenew.com/

Quote
Elias, I respect you and have read your writings for many years.  Your efforts on behalf of freedom are many and praiseworthy.  If you feel that working on the Oathkeepers is a sound strategy, it is not my place to question your thinking.  I will point out that you are a perfect example of the few who realized after the fact what was right and true, took off your costume, and walked away.  You make your living as a free man and not a tax eater.  An army of like-minded folk would be formidable indeed.

To the extent that the "strategy" is to gently lead Oathkeepers to take an honest look in the mirror, the program may have some utility.  But that strategy will be effective only to the extent that it causes Oathkeepers to strip off their costumes and renounce violence as a way of life.  In other words, it may thin the ranks of oppressors, and particularly the enforcers.  That is why the government mouthpieces are squawking.  But when the bayonets are fixed, they will be used to stir the guts of women and children, oaths to the contrary.

I've very little to argue in rebuttal with your assessment, but would like to offer a little bit of "fine tuning", as per my closing thoughts in the immediately above paragraph by self. I do believe that the best way to throw off the insane abusiveness of present-day corruption emanating from fedgov is to remove the willingness of all troops and law enforcement personnel from the chain of command - not by seeing them all walk away from service, but by seeing them make a courageous and conscientious stand against unlawful orders.

Oath Keepers proposes to remove the power of the military and law enforcement communities from the use of corrupt federal powers, not by asking them to get out of law enforcement and military duty, but by asking them to learn the meaning in their oath and honoring that meaning while serving. This goal, could we accomplish it to even fifteen or twenty percent of military and LEO personnel, would greatly disempower the forces of tyranny which presently dictate the abusive application and use of our military and law enforcement.

It is a lofty vision, Silver, and that vision came from one of our own right here at TMM, a rascal we affectionately call "Stewart The Yalie". As such, I'd like to recommend that we all support the central mission of Oath Keepers.

http://www.oathkeepers.org/

Salute!
Elias

Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: CorbinKale on October 28, 2009, 09:24:38 pm
Stewart knows what he is doing. From the beginning, he knew the group would be bashed from all sides. The hate groups, the 'where were you when...' accusations, the infiltrators, the political groups that want to steer OK to their own cause, etc.

We get it. We can stand it. We know we have to stay focused on the specifically limited mission to reach, teach and inspire those who have taken the Oath, as it is legally and morally bulletproof. We may fail. We may be too late. If we can't reclaim our liberty and restore our constitutional republic through this method, focusing on the Oath, we lose only our last gambit to do this thing without bloodshed. That is basically the purpose of OK, to avoid bloodshed, you know. There are other ways, but the OK method is worth trying first, in my opinion.

Where were we under the previous administrations?  We have been waging our war as individuals the whole time, and are now forming a unified front under the OK banner. I caused myself all kinds of grief my last few years in the Infantry, speaking out against Bush's violations of his constitutional Oath. The Patriot Act, Campaign Finance Reform, failure to secure our borders from invasion, etc. I beat all who came against me, using my Oath as both shield and sword, and retired in 2005. My Oath doesn't expire until I do, so I continue the fight in Oath Keepers.
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Silver on October 28, 2009, 09:28:06 pm
Elias, thank you very much for the thoughtful and civil response.  We both work for the same things.

You spoke of fine tuning.  Perhaps a bit of fine tuning of the OK's rather lofty language should be considered.  My original post on this topic pointed out 6 inconsistenties between the rhetoric and the day-to-day reality that are so extreme I believe they justify an accusation of hypocrisy.   As far as I can tell, none of the responses to my post have answered or countered those 6 points.

I have no argument with lofty goals.  I share some of these, and have my own.  There's nothing wrong with a free man's reach exceeding his grasp.  My criticism is that when the plain language of the oath is obviously and repeatedly violated every single day by anyone practicing the professions in question, the oath loses meaning and calls the honesty and integrity of the oath taker into question. 

If, for example, OK Board member Chief Celia S. Hyde will swear a mighty oath not to disarm citizens,  then goes out herself or oversees officers who go out and enforce a MA law that will put a citizen in jail for 10 long years if they don't lock their firearm when stored at home, rendering it useless, is she not open to charges of blatant hypocrisy?  How does she reconcile her oath to honor the right to bear arms with enforcement of a law that demands the each and every citizen get advance approval from the police not only to carry a weapon, but simply to own one at all, even if it never leaves the home?  A law the enforces registration of all firearms and records of all ammunition purchases?  Does the fact that she has retired change her responsibility in this area?  Will she make a public statement to the effect that no OK who is a MA police officer should enforce this draconian, unconstitutional, victim-disarming law?

It can't be both ways.  The plain language of the "Orders we will not obey" section of the OK web site is inconsistent with continued employment in police or military work.  An active-duty OK is almost certainly breaking their oath on a regular basis.  This is not a situation that gives me confidence that in a terrible situation, where superiors are ordering still more horrible deeds, the Oath Keepers will suddenly decide to jeopardize their careers and very possibly their lives to defy that order.  They have already made that choice in their daily actions.  Just as you will fight as you train, you will follow as you have followed.

If the line in the sand that the OKs vow not to cross were drawn more realistically, so that I couldn't charge every single active-duty member with being a damned liar, I would withdraw my objections.  That's where some fine tuning may be in order.

I appreaciate what you have done and are trying to do.  My criticisms of the Oath Keepers are not about the concept, but about the Oath itself and how it is described and explained by the Oath Keepers.  A group of people who swear oaths that they immediately and repeatedly violate already infests Mordor on the Potomac, we don't need more recruits to that particular army.

Peace,

Silver
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Bluelinegirl on November 08, 2009, 09:00:49 am
I have to agree on several points (I appologize for not taking the time to read every post in the thread however).  I absolutely Love the 'lofty goals' of the OK, it's why I joined. But I personally witness what appears to a division in the ranks as well; It appears to be between the active duty and prior service (Military and LE).  It appears to me that the older and wiser (  ^_^  ) are more prone to defend the Constitution while the AD seem more prone to follow orders. However, and this is a major bone of contention with me for both sides, I have yet to see anyone post a 'call to arms (if you will)' such as meeting 'victims' of rights violations or encroachments at the court houses or even a call to donate to legal funds.  If the SHTF, im glad to know that OK will fight with us, but what about the war on now? Seems like too many are waiting to pick their battles.  I believe if a call to action were made to testify on behalf of one of our brothers in citizenship with regards to the meaning of the Constitution and not just the latest, most convenient translation of it (after all, it is OUR constitution), many OK brothers and sisters would show or at the very least contribute to the legal or travel funds. (Wow, I almost feel like an American again, being able to freely speak my mind and all..I miss this feeling.)

Excellent thread btw, I look forward to reading more of it.
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: da gooch on November 08, 2009, 03:15:04 pm
Elias, thank you very much for the thoughtful and civil response.  We both work for the same things.

You spoke of fine tuning.  Perhaps a bit of fine tuning of the OK's rather lofty language should be considered.  My original post on this topic pointed out 6 inconsistenties between the rhetoric and the day-to-day reality that are so extreme I believe they justify an accusation of hypocrisy.   As far as I can tell, none of the responses to my post have answered or countered those 6 points.

I have no argument with lofty goals.  I share some of these, and have my own.  There's nothing wrong with a free man's reach exceeding his grasp.  My criticism is that when the plain language of the oath is obviously and repeatedly violated every single day by anyone practicing the professions in question, the oath loses meaning and calls the honesty and integrity of the oath taker into question. 

If, for example, OK Board member Chief Celia S. Hyde will swear a mighty oath not to disarm citizens,  then goes out herself or oversees officers who go out and enforce a MA law that will put a citizen in jail for 10 long years if they don't lock their firearm when stored at home, rendering it useless, is she not open to charges of blatant hypocrisy?  How does she reconcile her oath to honor the right to bear arms with enforcement of a law that demands the each and every citizen get advance approval from the police not only to carry a weapon, but simply to own one at all, even if it never leaves the home?  A law the enforces registration of all firearms and records of all ammunition purchases?  Does the fact that she has retired change her responsibility in this area?  Will she make a public statement to the effect that no OK who is a MA police officer should enforce this draconian, unconstitutional, victim-disarming law?

It can't be both ways.  The plain language of the "Orders we will not obey" section of the OK web site is inconsistent with continued employment in police or military work.  An active-duty OK is almost certainly breaking their oath on a regular basis.  This is not a situation that gives me confidence that in a terrible situation, where superiors are ordering still more horrible deeds, the Oath Keepers will suddenly decide to jeopardize their careers and very possibly their lives to defy that order.  They have already made that choice in their daily actions.  Just as you will fight as you train, you will follow as you have followed.

If the line in the sand that the OKs vow not to cross were drawn more realistically, so that I couldn't charge every single active-duty member with being a damned liar, I would withdraw my objections.  That's where some fine tuning may be in order.

I appreaciate what you have done and are trying to do.  My criticisms of the Oath Keepers are not about the concept, but about the Oath itself and how it is described and explained by the Oath Keepers.  A group of people who swear oaths that they immediately and repeatedly violate already infests Mordor on the Potomac, we don't need more recruits to that particular army.

Peace,

Silver

Forgive me for stepping into a conversation that you and Elias are having Silver.

I would like to make an observation if I am allowed.  Naww I'll do it anyway.

It seems to me that you are lumping every currently serving oath taker [government employee] with the members of Oath Keepers.

The Organization does not speak for all government employees by any stretch of the imagination.  Some of our most virulent detractors are currently serving government employees because like many they have misunderstood our actions and intentions.
In their case they assume we are trying to overthrow the government by refusing orders from a "superior" officer when what we are really doing is educating each oath taker to realize that since Nuremberg [1945-46]"I was just following orders." is no longer a defense for obeying unlawful orders of ANY kind from ANY direction.

In your case [I think, that is If I understand your position, and in many others opinions as well] we are painted as not being proactive enough and are therefore hypocrites.
We are NOT claiming that we are going to end criminal action by any oath taker TODAY this minute in any way that we can.
Our strategy is to slowly and decisively remove all of the teeth in the wolf's mouth OR at least enough of them to cause the wolf to stop biting things or to seriously doubt whether or not he can still bite anything with his teeth all missing.
Non-violent resistance. Refusal of unlawful [unconstitutional] orders. The Prevention of [even more] Tyranny not an "overthrow" of anything.
[Please do read our What we are Not List ?]

That is the first goal.
What is not spoken aloud is not as evident but is just as powerful.
By educating each oath taker on his or her responsibilities to the Constitution [NOT the government] we gradually open minds and hearts to the idea of Liberty as a real actual living thing a Lifestyle not some fantasy ideal to strive for but that is not attainable.
[Here then finally is our attempt at removal of the current tyranny and still non-violent in manner.]
At the same time those now awakened people will be "Locally" forming voting blocks and community groups to remove from office the 3P's that have nearly driven this country into oblivion.
The Republic is reborn without bloodshed. We fervently Hope.


It may be too late but I for one will not quit trying. I don't know how I would ever be able to explain to my grand sons why I didn't even TRY to stop the juggernaut while I was young enough to at least try.

gooch
=====
The OK What we are Not List.

What We Are Not

We are Not advocating or promoting the overthrow of any government whether local, state or national.
We want our governments to return to the Constitutional Republic which the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution defined and instituted.

We are Not advocating or promoting violence towards any organization, group or person.
We are determined to Keep our Oath to support and defend the Constitution.

We are not advocating or promoting the removal of any person from his or her elected office.
We want all elected persons to live up to their Oath to "support and defend the Constitution" as it is written or to leave of their own volition.

We are not advocating or promoting that anyone in the Judicial Branch be removed or replaced.
We want the Justices in the Judicial Branch to follow the Constitution as written without interpretation.

We are not advocating or promoting any particular form of government other than the Constitutional Republic which the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution defined and instituted.

We are not advocating or promoting the rewriting of the Constitution nor are we asking for an Amendment thereto.
We are insisting on the Constitution being Enforced as it is written.

We are Not advocating or promoting any act or acts of aggression against any organization or person for any reason including, but not limited to; race, religion, national origin, political affiliation, gender or sexual orientation.

We hope for a return to a Constitutional Republic free from fear and hatred. We hate only tyranny.

We are Oath Sworn Americans who want the Constitution returned to its legal and rightful place, intact, as the ultimate Law of the Land.
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Rarick on May 22, 2013, 09:39:01 am
Hey Elias and gang, I had a tought the other day.   Before WW2 when Hitler and the Nazis were consolidating power, what happened to the local police?  What Kind of weeding out took place, or were the local police simply made totally subservient to the Gestapo?  Is that the way the current SOP's are being written in regards to DHS/FEMA support?  Or did the Gestapo simply replace the police............

I had the thought that if the progressives were going to make a take over move, that they may just subsume or eradicate and replace the local police first.  Then they would start on the local citizenry......

Also are the DHS goons sworn officers, and what is  their oath of office?

Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Silver on May 22, 2013, 10:14:49 am
I don't know the detailed history of police evolution in pre-war Germany, and I wouldn't trust most history books on the subject.  History is written by the victors.

Twenty-first century Amerika is arguably quite different than early 20th-century Germany.  Militarization of the police force has been underway for decades, under the guise of the war on drugs.  The past few decades of continual wars have trained a great many police in the realities, tactics, and strategies of door-to-door searches, occupation, and urban combat.  Modern police forces are replete with combat-hardened veterans who have learned to think of the enemy as less than human.  We are the enemy.

Germany didn't have that background; they had other things, like a hyperinflation, to stir things up.  We may get some of that training all too soon.

Peace,

Silver
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Elias Alias on November 28, 2013, 04:50:41 am
Twenty-first century Amerika is arguably quite different than early 20th-century Germany.  Militarization of the police force has been underway for decades, under the guise of the war on drugs.  The past few decades of continual wars have trained a great many police in the realities, tactics, and strategies of door-to-door searches, occupation, and urban combat.  Modern police forces are replete with combat-hardened veterans who have learned to think of the enemy as less than human.  We are the enemy.

You are right, Silver. "Militarized Police" is the domestic side of the government's military. It is, indeed, a "standing army". And it is supplied now in part by Federal interests. Today's DARPA-spawned "cutting edge weaponry and science" is field-tested in illegal wars and once it has been updated in design, it becomes "military surplus" and is then given over to Federal enforcement agencies and Departments. It then is passed to police departments and Sheriffs' offices across the land. "We" are the enemy, just as you said. The government is busily creating the enemy right now, and has been for a number of years. And the enemy is us.

Therefore, you and I see eye to eye on that point, yes? So does Devvy. Check out her newest -

http://www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd615.htm

So now that we all see the nature of the problem, and now that we understand that the revelations are now swamping us faster than we can find time to read all of them, all of us can see the patterns evolving. We all know that most of our Congress thinks that one-world government is the solution to all of our problems. We all know that an entire mountain of so-called "laws" are on the books since 9/11/2001, and that the thrust is generally to enslave the American middle class, get rid of the Constitution, turn "geopolitical" every possible chance, take the peoples' guns, and then oppress any dissidence with vigor using their now well-equipped and fujlly armed "standing army", which thinks of itself as the hero who is out there eradicating those pesty Constitutionalists so the true supporters of empowered governance will not be hindered. It's been turned on its head, is all ass-backwards. After we won the Cold War there literally was no "enemy" which could be used in psy-ops via the American press and media to inspire taxpayers to keep their noses to the grindstone and support the insane, evil, un-Constitutional wars abroad.  The perversion of the press (by and large, with a few notable exceptions) was to sell that to the people in terms which would not alert the people to the brevity and shortness of their leashes. The media/press is presently helping DHS demonize various segments of our over-all society. Ron Paulers, Constitutionalists, 2nd Amendment advocates, Informed jurors, sound money advocates, and most notably of all, "returning war Veterans". Wow.  All such dissidents are now squarely in the cross-hairs of DHS and other elements of Justice and Defense Departments. It's every bit as bad as you describe, and getting worse day by day.

But the real problem is even more insidious. That would be the conditioning, programming, training, and influential priority-setting values hammered into young soldiers' and cops' heads at the outset of their new chosen career. The programming is massive and continuously employed to keep cops and soldiers always looking forward to the next phase in career management. Don't rock the boat and you'll get promoted; rock the boat and you'll have to worry then about how to feed your family, which already is living sub-standard while you're "serving the country". Follow orders! Do as you're told. Do it well and do it now! Question the Constitutionality of it later, after you've executed the order. (I remember how it was for me in Vietnam - the last thing I would think to do would be to ponder the Constitutionality of any damn order barked at my dumb ass, right? Intense programming and conditioning, teaching and "Feducating". All backed by motivation related to job security and familial security. Frankly, people like us haven't got a fighting chance.

So, Silver, here is my question. Oath Keepers purports to reach these guys and gals with the guns. Once we reach them, our next step is to teach them. And once taught, our duty to our mission is to inspire them to become Oath Keepers. The "Ten Orders We Will Not Obey" set us apart, and they resonate with several thousand cops and several thousand current-serving soldiers. Oath Keepers is in ongoing conversations with those cops and soldiers, and we help them reach, teach, and inspire others in their groups / outfits.  Every time a soldier or a cop is helped successfully out of the embedded mindset which has been transplanted into his perception, and comes back to his senses as it were, we the people gain one more peace officer and the damned government loses one more robotized brainwashed useful GI.  The thousands of cops need our support as they help their peers wake up. They need to be recognized as men and women who believe in the Constitution and in the freedoms inherent in our traditions as Americans. At Oath Keepers, they can visit with soldiers and cops from all over the place. So I'm asking you - can't you grasp a reason to support our work at Oath Keepers, and lay off trying to lump the good ones into the same coagulated mess called "law enforcement"? Good cops and soldiers, those who will not follow un-Constitutional orders, need Oath Keepers, and they need support from the people. Every one who converts to Oath Keepers is one less we'll have to face ourselves, and in fact, becomes one who will help our side. Winning the hearts and minds of the soldiers and cops. Not a bad operation while we're waiting for "Claire Time" to show up, yes? ;)

Happy Thanksgiving, Silver. (And anyone else reading this too!)
Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: slidemansailor on November 28, 2013, 11:08:55 am
It is far easier to turn a ship from within the hull than from without.

It is because of Oath Keepers success that people jump in and want it to become more, or different. Its success is because it remains firm to its principles: Reach - Teach - Inspire.

Not change. Not quit your job. Not open fire on statists or fascists. Those things could result down the line from inspired patriots if others choose to declare war against free, peaceful people. But Oath Keepers will not fire the first shot, nor will they declare war.

One or two thoughtful people in each group can get others thinking. This was the founding of the Oath Keepers when ONE MAN in the uniform of his National Guard unit took his concern to the commanding officer. That one man speaking up was the pivot point getting the entire guard unit to tell DHS "NO. We cannot go door-to-door in New Orleans confiscating firearms."

Replicate this and we all may get out of this mess alive. 

NO guarantees.  But the the best peaceful hope I can see.

And if it comes to full on war against us, having questioning and unwilling troops on their side is nothing but good for ours.
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Rarick on December 03, 2013, 07:26:28 am
Yeah, few seeds.......   I am just try to point out to the few remaining "Good" cops out there, that they may be in a situation where they turn around and have to "Give it up to Rufus in the shower" unless they have made plans to shrug.........  That would allow them to walk away from being a lackey of DHS goon squads and being a popular proxy target for the angst caused by the "Night Knockers"........
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Elias Alias on December 03, 2013, 08:13:42 pm
Yeah, few seeds.......   I am just try to point out to the few remaining "Good" cops out there, that they may be in a situation where they turn around and have to "Give it up to Rufus in the shower" unless they have made plans to shrug.........  That would allow them to walk away from being a lackey of DHS goon squads and being a popular proxy target for the angst caused by the "Night Knockers"........

Of the Peace Officers who are members in Oath Keepers, every one of them would tell you eye to eye that he/she has many times thought through just what you're saying.

The idea is to help them educate their fellow cops, don't you think? Right now I've got 'em passing this around as educational material.

http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2013/12/02/josie-the-outlaw/

Salute!
Elias Alias

Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Rarick on December 04, 2013, 07:02:08 am
Yep, but there are rumbling on social media and other places that are looking ominous.  Where there used to be references to "triple S" is starting to get specific like people are thinking things over in detail.........   What house address to call in a "Domestic shots fired" on, so a long gun(S) has good clear shots that don't go thru cars or door panels.......... and has a chance of spotting the entry crew as well......

There are a lot of dog lovers out there trying to make similar plans.......

No I am not going to give specifics, I am trying to let people know somethings are sliding faster than they expect......and nothing has actually been done, so no law has been broken.
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Elias Alias on December 04, 2013, 07:10:23 am
Yep, but there are rumbling on social media and other places that are looking ominous.  Where there used to be references to "triple S" is starting to get specific like people are thinking things over in detail.........   What house address to call in a "Domestic shots fired" on, so a long gun(S) has good clear shots that don't go thru cars or door panels.......... and has a chance of spotting the entry crew as well......

There are a lot of dog lovers out there trying to make similar plans.......

Jeez, Rarick - what's your point, Man?

I'm trying to talk about positive consciousness - you know, that "mental" part of what we're all doing here in a "mental" militia - using our damned minds constructively to help turn an evil tide of totalitarian tyranny, and you sit here like an auto-referent god damning everything I am working for - using your sour words. So what's up Dude?

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Silver on December 04, 2013, 08:34:37 pm
So I'm asking you - can't you grasp a reason to support our work at Oath Keepers, and lay off trying to lump the good ones into the same coagulated mess called "law enforcement"? Good cops and soldiers, those who will not follow un-Constitutional orders, need Oath Keepers, and they need support from the people. Every one who converts to Oath Keepers is one less we'll have to face ourselves, and in fact, becomes one who will help our side. Winning the hearts and minds of the soldiers and cops. Not a bad operation while we're waiting for "Claire Time" to show up, yes? ;)

Happy Thanksgiving, Silver. (And anyone else reading this too!)
Salute!
Elias

Elias,

Thank you for the Thanksgiving wishes, and for your thoughtful response to my questions and objections.

I think that I understand what you are trying to do.  I wish you the very best of luck.  Success would be truly wonderful.

But I must sadly answer your question in the negative.  I can't give any meaningful support. I will gladly wish you luck but I don't believe there is any chance of success as you describe it.

There are no good cops.  There are no good soldiers.  They exist only in propaganda films and fantasies. Both occupations are inherently evil. Both attract thugs and bullies.  Both turn well-intentioned fools into psychopaths.

There are good EX-cops.  There are good EX-soldiers.  But the fact that they are good is inextricably linked with the fact that as they became aware they took off the costume and walked away from what they knew was an inherently evil way of life.

I believe that to the extent you are successful, it will be measured in how many take off the costume and renounce their evil ways.  As you did.  As others have done.  Those are the real victories.  Those are people I could learn to trust.

When I am confronted by a costumed thug with a gun, one who assures me that he or she is an Oath Keeper, the only thing I will learn is that the psychopath menacing me is not awake, is not aware, and is unable to grasp the inherent evil of beating and killing in return for payment with stolen money.  I could never trust such a person with so much as a burnt-out match.

I'm not saying that you are wrong to work as you do.  I am saying that success will look a lot different than you imagine.

Peace,

Silver
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Elias Alias on December 04, 2013, 11:58:09 pm

Silver,
Thank you for the candid reply. I grok your pov. I have no interest in attempting further to alter your perspective on this subject, so I'll just bow out of the discussion with you and release you to your highest good. May you be blessed in every way. And along your way, perhaps you'll someday come to ponder just why Claire Wolfe writes a column for SWAT Magazine, yes?

Salute, Silver!
Elias Alias
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: jamie on December 05, 2013, 10:21:21 pm


"There are no good cops.  There are no good soldiers.  They exist only in propaganda films and fantasies. Both occupations are inherently evil. ( omitted    )   Both turn well-intentioned fools into psychopaths."

Silver, is this what you really believe?

I left out the attract  thugs and bullies part because that is unarguably true.
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Rarick on December 06, 2013, 07:14:04 am
Yep, but there are rumbling on social media and other places that are looking ominous.  Where there used to be references to "triple S" is starting to get specific like people are thinking things over in detail.........   What house address to call in a "Domestic shots fired" on, so a long gun(S) has good clear shots that don't go thru cars or door panels.......... and has a chance of spotting the entry crew as well......

There are a lot of dog lovers out there trying to make similar plans.......

Jeez, Rarick - what's your point, Man?

I'm trying to talk about positive consciousness - you know, that "mental" part of what we're all doing here in a "mental" militia - using our damned minds constructively to help turn an evil tide of totalitarian tyranny, and you sit here like an auto-referent god damning everything I am working for - using your sour words. So what's up Dude?

Salute!
Elias

I thought it was obvious, fight the good fight but watch your ass, the fire is heating up........
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Silver on December 06, 2013, 11:14:00 am

"There are no good cops.  There are no good soldiers.  They exist only in propaganda films and fantasies. Both occupations are inherently evil. ( omitted    )   Both turn well-intentioned fools into psychopaths."

Silver, is this what you really believe?

I left out the attract  thugs and bullies part because that is unarguably true.

I submit that the entire paragraph is unarguably true.

Freedomista Maggie McNeill addressed this (http://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/2011/03/05/godwin%E2%80%99s-law/) a few years back:

Quote
If a cop is tasked with enforcing a law he knows to be immoral, it is his duty as a moral man to refuse that order even if it means his job. If he agrees with an immoral law then he is also immoral, and if he enforces a law he knows to be wrong even more so. The law of the land in Nazi-era Germany was for Jews and other undesirables to be sent to concentration camps, and the maltreatment of the prisoners was encouraged and even ordered by those in charge; any German soldier or policeman enforcing those laws was the exact moral equivalent of any soldier or policeman under any other democratically-elected government enforcing the laws enacted by that regime. Either I was only following orders is a valid defense, or it isnt; either we agree that hired enforcers are absolved from responsibility because theyre just doing their jobs, or we dont. You cant have it both ways, and sometimes Nazi analogies are entirely appropriate.

I am not appealing to authority here, but pointing out that thoughtful people have been reaching the same conclusion for centuries.  Read Erasmus on the Wickedness of Soldiers (http://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/11/laurence-m-vance/the-wickedness-of-soldiers/) by Lawence Vance.  Read Erasmus directly if you dare, it is powerful stuff.

Erasmus wrote a full 300 years before the invention of police, that clever ruse whereby an occupation army is imposed upon citizen-subjects by calling it something else.  So while he confined himself to writing about soldiers, every word applies to police as well.

Let me amplify on McNeill's point:  Those German soldiers and policemen were subject to immediate, severe punishment, up to summary execution, if they did not obey orders.  But at Nuremberg we hung them anyway.  We rejected "just following orders" as a legitimate excuse for immoral acts.

The source of the paycheck does not change the morality of the employee's actions.

Now if ordinary German citizens, in addition to police and soldiers, could be caged, beaten, and killed for refusing a salute (http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/the-german-guy-who-refused-to-give-a-nazi-salute-w), what possible excuse does any US thug have for their actions?  Their risks are primarily economic, such as losing an over-paid low-skill job with a luxurious pension.

Unless of course they are an actual oath keeper, meaning that they take their oath to the Constitution seriously, and act to uphold it.

Like Chelsea Manning, who has earned the right to be called whatever she wants.  Because her objections to the many heinous war crimes of US soldiers against unarmed civilians were ignored, she acted.  She kept her oath.

For that she was tortured for months, subjected to a show trial, and locked in a cage, where she remains.

That's what happens to soldiers and policemen who refuse to obey unconstitutional orders. 

People with the courage and integrity of Chelsea Manning are extremely rare, and I don't hold the average thug to her standards.  She could have simply resigned and rejoined peaceful civil society, and I for one would have accepted her decision and welcomed her.

As I would welcome all such people who renounce the use of violence to achieve their goals. I don't expect them to risk imprisonment, torture, and death in order to keep their oath to "a goddamned piece of paper."  I don't require penance and restitution.  All I ask is that they take off the silly costume and join the ranks of peaceful free men and women.

Peace,

Silver

PS - I realize that Chelsea Manning could be offered as an example of a good soldier.  I have several responses, starting with the observation that the overwhelming majority of soldiers believe the opposite.

More importantly, since her sentence includes a forced dishonorable discharge, she remains a soldier only by the whim of her tormentors, not by her own choice.  Once she is freed, she will no longer be a soldier.  She proves my point - the only good soldiers are ex-soldiers.
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Moonbeam on December 06, 2013, 12:47:40 pm
Silver, thank you for articulating your thoughts. I don't always view folks in positions of "authority" the way you and others do. However, I have a better understanding of such sentiment when you take the time to share your perspective.
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: da gooch on December 06, 2013, 01:28:58 pm
Silver,

I, too, would like to thank you for your response.

Having been an ignorant dupe of the edudoctrination system and direct recipient of the military brain washing I can empathize with the currently serving young people who have fallen into the propaganda mills "tender mercies".

Still when it came to following orders blindly ... I had [and continue to have] a major negative response. For the longest time I attempted to push the responsibility of my negative reaction off on the actions of others.[bad leaders in my one specific situation, etc]

Then the red pill happened ... [actually a series of small separate red pills]

I have since been attempting to reach, teach and inspire those currently ignorant of the reality of their self induced prison and criminality.
Truly some of the folks attracted to the business of controlling [or killing] others are [or should be classed as] Thugs and psychopaths.
There are however a certain number who are, as I was, simply ignorant of the actual consequences and reality of their decision to  "serve their country".

Would you mind expressing your ideas and or suggestions of how you, or someone else, would go about reaching out to those individuals and getting them to renounce their "career" and the job/mindset/philosophy?
Without starting the "conflict" [think overt combat] that we all would very much like to spare ourselves and our children.

Thanks

edit to clarify a point and add emphasis
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Silver on December 07, 2013, 01:12:41 pm
Gooch,

I don't have a magic formula.   You hit the nail on the head: there are the genuine psychopaths and bullies naturally attracted to and encouraged in these fields, and then there are those who are "ignorant of the actual consequences and reality of their decision."

Nearly all bullies are dreadful cowards, which is one of the reasons we see "officer safety" becoming so prominent in a field that is actually quite safe by most standards.  I've never learned a reliable cure for bullies.  Their extreme cowardice also prevents them from facing the unpleasant facts about their pathetic existence. 

Ignorance is a treatable condition and knowledge is the cure.  The trick is finding out which red pill will open their mind. 

For many it is seeing (different) thugs inflict pain and suffering on them or someone they care about. 

For others it is reading Ayn Rand, or Ron Paul, or Lew Rockwell, or some other libertarian or anarchocapitalist work. 

For a few the moment comes when washing the day's blood off of their hands and they accidentally confront the reality of their crimes. 

For a very few it is learning about the nature of money and gold, usually because (other) thugs have stolen their retirement plans or other financial loss. 

For a microscopic minority it comes from learning the truth via free-market economics, which at its core is about how a civil society chooses to order itself.

Any of these can work, all of them work on some people, but none of them work on all people, and most of them don't work at first try.  Some ignoramuses cling stubbornly to their delusions with the tenacity of the righteous.  Change is difficult, learning truth requires thought, which most people experience as difficult.  Most importantly, the life of a thief can be quite comfortable so long as you don't think about it.

There are two and only two classes of people in this world: The productive class who make their way by economic means, primarily free trade, and those who use fraud and violence to parasitize the productive class.  This is a MUCH bigger group than the thug ranks of police and soldiers, but all police and soldiers are parasites, without exception.

Beliefs are behaviors and members of the parasite class believe that it is perfectly honest and good to steal from their fellow men.  From there it is but a small step to believing that it must be right and good to club, choke, shoot, burn, cut, beat, poison, and cage anyone who protests the theft of their property.  One more small step and the same violence is meted out to any dissenter who refuse "lawful orders" of any kind. 

So we find ourselves today subjected to capricious whims of a ruling class, none of whom has any legitimacy beyond the boots and bullets of the enforcer class.  Just being different is dangerous, speaking out is nearly suicidal, and actual acts of dissent almost uniformly fatal.

Most of the ignorant people in the parasite class are not at all innocent, but many of them can be reformed if they have some courage and the good fortune to find the right red pill.  In their defense, they  have a lifetime of misinformation poured into intentionally defenseless minds from a tender age. That explains their ignorance, but no adult is excused of the consequences of their decisions because of ignorance.

So the short answer to your question is knowledge.  The longer one is to try as many different kinds of knowledge, approaches to teaching, and opportunities for learning as possible. 

We freedomistas have one extraordinarily powerful force on our side.  We speak the truth.  It takes a lifetime of conditioning to get a man to accept the pack of lies we call law, government, taxes, wars, etc.  But all of that conditioning can be destroyed in a single moment of clarity, and once shattered the conditioning is nearly impossible to repair.  A chink is opened, a mind awakened from a long slumber, and soon large chunks of rationalization and self-delusion are falling away.  Watching that process is both terrible and gratifying.

So it is worth trying.  Indeed it is the only non-violent approach that I know, and I have sworn not to use violence to achieve my goals. 

Understand that I don't fault you or Elias or any other free man for reaching out, for trying. Perhaps the talking and thinking that comes with being an Oath Keeper will provide the moment of clarity.  Our enemies vastly outnumber us, every new recruit is incredibly precious.  It is certainly worth trying.

What I have been trying to communicate here is that I will only trust an Oath Keeper such as you or Elias, ones who recognize evil when they see it, take off the costume, and renounce that way of life.  Success is measured by the growing ranks of deserters, period. I cannot, dare not accept that a thug who continues to be employed as a thug will honor any oath.  Just as they fool themselves into thinking that living from the proceeds of theft is good and just, so will they find a way to rationalize kitten-stomping and much worse when ordered to do so.

Peace,

Silver
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: jamie on December 07, 2013, 04:13:18 pm
Maybe there are no good cops but there is such a thing as a good soldier.  I don't know who else was at Valley Forge and a few other places.

It is an imperfect world.
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Silver on December 07, 2013, 05:15:23 pm
I don't know the names of the fools at Valley Forge, but it is easy enough to know their characters.

Quote
The dregs of humanity are roused to come out of their hiding-places, and collect like bilge-water from all over the world: men burdened by disgrace or debt or fearful of the threats of the law on account of their misdeeds, or men who are conscious of their crimes and so think they cannot be safe in time of peace, or who have dissolutely squandered their capital and are now led astray by sordid poverty to the worse crime of robbing others. Finally, there are men whose evil disposition and evil mind so act on them (as if they were born for crime) that they would have dared to do such things at the risk of their lives even without the prospect of going unpunished or the offer of pay. Wars have to be carried on with these sweepings of humanity; such dregs have to be received into cities and homes, although a whole generation will hardly be enough to clean the stink from your citizens morals. If indeed we learn nothing so easily as depravity, there is also nothing so difficult to forget.
Panegyric by Erasmus

We are instructed to admire the men at Valley Forge because their side was victorious and they suffered great hardships when their fool of a general left them trapped and vulnerable in a frozen winter waste.  Erasmus wrote about that as well:

Quote
Who could possibly tell how many hardships these idiots of soldiers put up with in their camps? And they deserve worse just for being willing to put up with them: food at which a Cyprian ox would turn up its nose, sleeping quarters that would be scorned by a dung-beetle, few hours of sleep and those not of their own choosing, a tent that lets in the wind from every direction, or no tent at all. They have to endure an open-air life, sleep on the ground, stand in their arms, bear hunger, cold, heat, dust, rain. They have to obey their commanders, they have to bear floggings with rods; for no slaves bondage is more humiliating that soldiers service. Add to this that when the fatal signal is given you have to go and face up to death, either to kill mercilessly or to fall miserably. We undergo all these woes in order to get to the most wretched part of all. We afflict ourselves first with these countless woes, just in order to inflict them on others.

As for their being heroes:

Quote
We loath an executioner because he is hired by the legal authority and puts to death the guilty and the condemned; but men who abandon their parents, wives and children and rush off to war of their own accord, nor hired but asking to be hired for some wicked butchery, are almost more welcome when they go home than if they had never been away. They think they have won some sort of nobility from their villainies. The man who has stolen a garment is infamous; the man who has robbed so many innocent people while he was on his way to join the army, while he was serving as a soldier and when he was coming back is considered a respectable citizen. And the soldier who has conducted himself with the most brutality is thought worthy to play the commander in the next war.

It is most certainly an imperfect world, but that does not excuse institutionalized murder or a business model whose profits are paid in money but costs paid in blood.

Supposedly the American Revolution was fought over taxation, with a proposed sales tax of about 3%.  There were also complaints about an unresponsive legislature and ruling class.

Speaking strictly for myself, if my sales taxes were at 3%, there was no income tax, and my nearest legislator 3,000 miles away, I would find that an enormous improvement over the present situation.  In terms of unaccountable government tyranny we are far worse off today than any colonist.  That war ended like all wars, with myriad empty promises and countless filled graves.

Peace,

Silver
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: jamie on December 07, 2013, 09:11:28 pm
Erasmus had some problems, looks like he hated everyone to me.

From The Praise of Folly (1509)

The merchants are the biggest fool of all. They carry on the most sordid business and by the most corrupt methods. Whenever it is necessary, they will lie, perjure themselves, steal, cheat, and mislead the public. Nevertheless, they are highly respected because of their money. There is no lack of flattering friars to kowtow to them, and call them Right Honorable in public. The motive of the friars is clear: they are after some of the loot.

Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Elias Alias on December 08, 2013, 05:07:05 am
Well, just moseying by here to drop off a couple of possibly related bits of trivia.

The reason I work with Oath Keepers is partially indicated by this story of a cop who got his ass arrested for refusing to remove his Guy Fawkes mask on a public street. During his arrest, he also refused to let the arresting cops know he was a cop in their own district. When you listen to his commentary, toward the end of it he goes into his understanding of the meaning of the Oath. When we looked into it, he joined one of our facebook pages about eight months ago, where he has been learning. Brief video:

http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2013/12/07/another-hero-cop-risks-career-to-defend-constitution/

So that guy made my day, and Oath Keepers is connecting with him right now to see how we can help him. This sort of good news is happening more frequently as Oath Keepers continues through our fifth year. It's an uphill battle, but as Gooch noted, some of them just need to be educated. I feel personal reward every time a new cop or soldier joins Oath Keepers. Every little bit helps.

And here is something else that makes me feel good. This young woman is hitting hard. I've not looked at these forums to see if anyone has already posted her website yet, but if they haven't I will. But for this thread, suffice to know that I'm now doing an email interview with Josie The Outlaw to be published at our national website and blasted out all over the nation. Josie The Outlaw likes Oath Keepers and is happy to work with me for the interview. She will appreciate all the hits you give her site and this YouTube video:

"On Being An Outlaw" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eZC98kOtec

There are three other videos, and I like every one of them. http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCldbpfJU_kyRIueXmXvBHdw/videos

Note that her "Message To Police" has, in only six days, drawn over a hundred thousand downloads - and that is not counting the hits which viewed it from her front page, here - http://www.josietheoutlaw.com/

So. Each of us has his/her subjective preference for "general disposition". For some, the glass is half full; others see it as half empty. I don't think that will ever change in the field of human nature, so I don't sweat it. But I'm damn glad I work with Oath Keepers, and I know for a fact that it's the same reason Claire writes for S.W.A.T. Magazine.

Peace and prosperity to all, (which may be easier to find after reading here: http://www.silvertowne.com/p-23422-the-silvertowne-vault-cast-episode-128-gold-bitcoin-and-too-big-to-fail-banks.aspx ) Can't believe I'm going to be able to buy silver at less than twenty bucks per ounce! Awesome! ;)

Salute!
Elias Alias
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Klapton Isgod on December 08, 2013, 02:08:45 pm
I'm waiting for what will happen once all the people sharing her videos right now find out she's an "anarchst."  It should be interesting.  Hopefully we'll see even more bright yellow lightbulbs going on.
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on December 08, 2013, 05:41:58 pm
...

Happy Thanksgiving, Silver. (And anyone else reading this too!)
Salute!
Elias
:wav:
And a belated Happy Thanksgiving to you, Elias.
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: da gooch on December 08, 2013, 08:56:02 pm
Well, just moseying by here to drop off a couple of possibly related bits of trivia.

snip - snip

And here is something else that makes me feel good. This young woman is hitting hard. I've not looked at these forums to see if anyone has already posted her website yet, but if they haven't I will. But for this thread, suffice to know that I'm now doing an email interview with Josie The Outlaw to be published at our national website and blasted out all over the nation. Josie The Outlaw likes Oath Keepers and is happy to work with me for the interview. She will appreciate all the hits you give her site and this YouTube video:

"On Being An Outlaw" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eZC98kOtec

There are three other videos, and I like every one of them. http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCldbpfJU_kyRIueXmXvBHdw/videos

Note that her "Message To Police" has, in only six days, drawn over a hundred thousand downloads - and that is not counting the hits which viewed it from her front page, here - http://www.josietheoutlaw.com/

snip - snip

Salute!
Elias Alias

Elias,
Do you or anyone else have dvd copies of her videos? Even transcripts would be fine if I could get them.
As you all probably know, by all of my whining, that I am trapped by location and age of telephone company equipment into a dial up connection which coughs, hacks and freezes at any download over 1Mb. Videos are totally impossible. Software updates are a day long project.

I can score a satellite dish from one of the "dish network" installations but don't have the budget to afford the service. Just my luck. :dontknow:

Any help is much appreciated. 
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: jamie on December 09, 2013, 01:48:09 am
Well, just moseying by here to drop off a couple of possibly related bits of trivia.

snip - snip

And here is something else that makes me feel good. This young woman is hitting hard. I've not looked at these forums to see if anyone has already posted her website yet, but if they haven't I will. But for this thread, suffice to know that I'm now doing an email interview with Josie The Outlaw to be published at our national website and blasted out all over the nation. Josie The Outlaw likes Oath Keepers and is happy to work with me for the interview. She will appreciate all the hits you give her site and this YouTube video:

"On Being An Outlaw" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eZC98kOtec

There are three other videos, and I like every one of them. http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCldbpfJU_kyRIueXmXvBHdw/videos

Note that her "Message To Police" has, in only six days, drawn over a hundred thousand downloads - and that is not counting the hits which viewed it from her front page, here - http://www.josietheoutlaw.com/

snip - snip

Salute!
Elias Alias

Elias,
Do you or anyone else have dvd copies of her videos? Even transcripts would be fine if I could get them.
As you all probably know, by all of my whining, that I am trapped by location and age of telephone company equipment into a dial up connection which coughs, hacks and freezes at any download over 1Mb. Videos are totally impossible. Software updates are a day long project.

I can score a satellite dish from one of the "dish network" installations but don't have the budget to afford the service. Just my luck. :dontknow:

Any help is much appreciated.


it isn't anything Larken Rose hasn't said a thousand times.  This is a good explanation of what is going on.

http://www.larkenrose.com/blog.html
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: jamie on December 09, 2013, 01:55:23 am
I don't know the names of the fools at Valley Forge, but it is easy enough to know their characters.

Quote
The dregs of humanity are roused to come out of their hiding-places, and collect like bilge-water from all over the world: men burdened by disgrace or debt or fearful of the threats of the law on account of their misdeeds, or men who are conscious of their crimes and so think they cannot be safe in time of peace, or who have dissolutely squandered their capital and are now led astray by sordid poverty to the worse crime of robbing others. Finally, there are men whose evil disposition and evil mind so act on them (as if they were born for crime) that they would have dared to do such things at the risk of their lives even without the prospect of going unpunished or the offer of pay. Wars have to be carried on with these sweepings of humanity; such dregs have to be received into cities and homes, although a whole generation will hardly be enough to clean the stink from your citizens morals. If indeed we learn nothing so easily as depravity, there is also nothing so difficult to forget.
Panegyric by Erasmus

We are instructed to admire the men at Valley Forge because their side was victorious and they suffered great hardships when their fool of a general left them trapped and vulnerable in a frozen winter waste.  Erasmus wrote about that as well:

Quote
Who could possibly tell how many hardships these idiots of soldiers put up with in their camps? And they deserve worse just for being willing to put up with them: food at which a Cyprian ox would turn up its nose, sleeping quarters that would be scorned by a dung-beetle, few hours of sleep and those not of their own choosing, a tent that lets in the wind from every direction, or no tent at all. They have to endure an open-air life, sleep on the ground, stand in their arms, bear hunger, cold, heat, dust, rain. They have to obey their commanders, they have to bear floggings with rods; for no slaves bondage is more humiliating that soldiers service. Add to this that when the fatal signal is given you have to go and face up to death, either to kill mercilessly or to fall miserably. We undergo all these woes in order to get to the most wretched part of all. We afflict ourselves first with these countless woes, just in order to inflict them on others.

As for their being heroes:

Quote
We loath an executioner because he is hired by the legal authority and puts to death the guilty and the condemned; but men who abandon their parents, wives and children and rush off to war of their own accord, nor hired but asking to be hired for some wicked butchery, are almost more welcome when they go home than if they had never been away. They think they have won some sort of nobility from their villainies. The man who has stolen a garment is infamous; the man who has robbed so many innocent people while he was on his way to join the army, while he was serving as a soldier and when he was coming back is considered a respectable citizen. And the soldier who has conducted himself with the most brutality is thought worthy to play the commander in the next war.

It is most certainly an imperfect world, but that does not excuse institutionalized murder or a business model whose profits are paid in money but costs paid in blood.

Supposedly the American Revolution was fought over taxation, with a proposed sales tax of about 3%.  There were also complaints about an unresponsive legislature and ruling class.

Speaking strictly for myself, if my sales taxes were at 3%, there was no income tax, and my nearest legislator 3,000 miles away, I would find that an enormous improvement over the present situation.  In terms of unaccountable government tyranny we are far worse off today than any colonist.  That war ended like all wars, with myriad empty promises and countless filled graves.

Peace,

Silver

"I don't know the names of the fools at Valley Forge, but it is easy enough to know their characters"

Silver, I don't think you know their characters and Erasmus from the 16th century doesn't either.
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Rarick on December 09, 2013, 06:17:37 am
I have always regarded the majority (NOT ALL) soldiers as "throw away males" from the societies and governments they protect.  There are exceptions, but large chunks of the soldiers over time are those that have tendancies that misfit them for regular society.   There are a few groups of soldier however that do not, I tend to think of them as popular militia who form up on a local basis for defense of their town, city, farms, and are pretty much like the local sports team the rest of the time.  Doing extra things that have them trained for when the bad days come.......

In the modern era wars have become so technical that there almost has to be a group of professionals that know all about the planes, tanks, and machine guns if for no other reason than to avoid the fate of the Palestinians and Native Americans.  Unable to unite and fight effectively against a larger possibly more advanced threat.

Armies and Governments (as in the guys that defend an overall society by merely existing) need to stay minimal.  Like a couple of college staffs and a few PhD's on the subjects around.  Just to deal with the larger issues around the world, like Hitlers, Stalins, and UNs.   
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Elias Alias on December 11, 2013, 06:47:54 am
...

Happy Thanksgiving, Silver. (And anyone else reading this too!)
Salute!
Elias
:wav:
And a belated Happy Thanksgiving to you, Elias.

Hey Rags! Good to hear from you Mon! Hope all goes well for you and yours. We need a long phone visit, but my new residence in the middle of Nowhere Montana has no cell service. (at present - that might get cured, maybe) My email service still works though. ;)

Merry Christmas, Dude.
Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Elias Alias on December 11, 2013, 07:50:35 am


Elias,
Do you or anyone else have dvd copies of her videos? Even transcripts would be fine if I could get them.
(snip)

Any help is much appreciated.

Gooch, I do not have any DVD copies of any of Josie's videos, nor do I have any transcript, so I can't help you with this. I would recommend that you go to a friend's house and ask to be allowed to view her vids on their computer. Or go to public library if you know of one which provides online computers. As for scripts, they wouldn't convey Josie's magic well enough to compete with her videos. Her magic is in her personal expression. She is not saying one thing new to liberty fighters - we've heard it all before. But the way in which she says it "works" for me, and apparently for a lot of other folks too.

As jamie has noted, what Josie is saying is basically what Larken Rose has (and a lot of our friends have) been saying for years. But as Larken's own article notes, after one week online Josie's download numbers are remarkable, and her figures dwarf Larken's works' figures. 

I had the pleasure of meeting Larken Rose a couple of years ago here in Montana while he was traveling about. Spent a few hours with him, bought his books, and found him to be a fine fellow. Also, Larken Rose is in the new movie which I worked on - MOLON LABE: How The Second Amendment Guarantees America's Freedom.   http://www.molon.us

Larken Rose has his own style as an individual. Josie The Outlaw has her style. Josie can reach millions of Americans without alienating them anywhere nearly as quickly as Larken can alienate people. Larken is careless with words, in that he is so deeply absorbed in his personal philosophy of freedom that he has lost certain sensitivities regarding how Other People interpret words. Titling a piece of work using the expression "shoot cops" is not the way to reach and teach cops. Period. To freedomistas, Larken's message is accepted, even with a grimace aside. With some notable exceptions, such as The Tiny Dot and similar works, Larken Rose insults people who do not know about liberty, which is most Americans. So, in typical libertarian style, he shoots himself in the foot by the way he approaches his readers. His masterpiece "When Should You Shoot A Cop", for example, only enrages most people before they even start to view it, and most who see the title never even open it. Larken is right about his philosophical views on liberty, voluntaryism, and cultural/social habit/norms. But is his purpose simply to be "right", or is it to help educate people who do not know about liberty principles? The "Choir" knows he's right and that his argument is strong and supported in fact. But he ain't reaching the people who NEED to hear the message, because he has - well, I don't know exactly why; I just know that he ain't getting his message out to the people who do not know about liberty but should know about it.

To his everlasting credit, he has helped Josie The Outlaw produce hard-hitting vids which do not shock people into clicking the "stop" button on their video viewer screen. Josie is easy for most cops and soldiers to listen to, and the very cops and soldiers who will accept this message of freedom from Josie will in most cases turn off Larken before they even get his video started. Being sensitive to one's target audience is a must, imo. That is why I'm interviewing Josie The Outlaw right now, as we speak. She is a happy, confident, knowledgeable, and passionate advocate for personal liberty and the personal responsibility from which that freedom comes. She likes Oath Keepers and sees what we're doing with the organization, and wants to be supportive for Oath Keepers. While Larken aims most of his messages to the Choir, Josie is aiming her message to the people at large. Her way of being herself appeals to a wide spectrum of Americana. Her message is as hard-hitting as Larken Rose's or any number of other Liberty fighters' messages, but her personal demeanor softens the blow so the uninitiated will not erect mental barriers at the outset. Josie The Outlaw is a teaching tool for the liberty movement. I'll let you know when I publish Oath Keepers' interview with her.

Take care, Gooch.
Salute!
Elias Alias


Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: slidemansailor on December 11, 2013, 09:47:47 am
Excellent overview, Elias.

I am continually saddened and amazed by the libertarians who, as the enemy army looms closer and closer, toss potential friends onto the other side of the ramparts.

Apparently the idea of marketing is AWOL in their DNA.
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: heyoka on December 11, 2013, 12:28:20 pm
I am continually saddened and amazed by the libertarians who, as the enemy army looms closer and closer, toss potential friends onto the other side of the ramparts.
Apparently the idea of marketing is AWOL in their DNA.
A sanitary purist ideology cannot chance contamination by unwashed heathen allies. By and large, it's made gubmint what it is today and explains the effective marginalization of any real alternatives. 
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: MamaLiberty on December 11, 2013, 01:33:18 pm
There is a vast difference between agreeing to disagree, working together with people who differ in approach... and compromising with evil. And nobody can decide which is which for someone else in the long run.
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on December 12, 2013, 12:07:03 am
And nobody can decide which is which for someone else in the long run.
:wav:
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on December 12, 2013, 12:10:29 am
...

Happy Thanksgiving, Silver. (And anyone else reading this too!)
Salute!
Elias
:wav:
And a belated Happy Thanksgiving to you, Elias.

Hey Rags! Good to hear from you Mon! Hope all goes well for you and yours. We need a long phone visit, but my new residence in the middle of Nowhere Montana has no cell service. (at present - that might get cured, maybe) My email service still works though. ;)

Merry Christmas, Dude.
Salute!
Elias
Roof still over heads. Food in the larder. So all goes well. One day at a time.
You bet. I owe you an email. Or a snail mail. I love to hand write, ya know.
I find more spirit is involved with that.
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: ZooT_aLLures on December 13, 2013, 03:27:59 am
Quote
There is a vast difference between agreeing to disagree, working together with people who differ in approach... and compromising with evil. And nobody can decide which is which for someone else in the long run.

Oh............you've come to that conclusion too eh?
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: WWalker on December 13, 2013, 04:12:34 pm
Reading through this thread I keep thinking...the more things change the more they stay the same.

In the end the answer to individual freedom from government tyranny will always be the same.

Thoreau gave that answer in 1849...and if I am learning anything about how much things really do stay the same...someone probably said it before that.

All government agents must resign their offices.

Any reaching, teaching, inspiring, fully informing, short of that.......is just a hobby.  If one enjoys it, a few feel good stories come from it, and no direct harm....... no foul.
 

 
   

Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: da gooch on December 15, 2013, 03:26:48 pm


Elias,
Do you or anyone else have dvd copies of her videos? Even transcripts would be fine if I could get them.
(snip)

Any help is much appreciated.

Gooch, I do not have any DVD copies of any of Josie's videos, nor do I have any transcript, so I can't help you with this. I would recommend that you go to a friend's house and ask to be allowed to view her vids on their computer. Or go to public library if you know of one which provides online computers. As for scripts, they wouldn't convey Josie's magic well enough to compete with her videos. Her magic is in her personal expression. She is not saying one thing new to liberty fighters - we've heard it all before. But the way in which she says it "works" for me, and apparently for a lot of other folks too.

As jamie has noted, what Josie is saying is basically what Larken Rose has (and a lot of our friends have) been saying for years. But as Larken's own article notes, after one week online Josie's download numbers are remarkable, and her figures dwarf Larken's works' figures. 

I had the pleasure of meeting Larken Rose a couple of years ago here in Montana while he was traveling about. Spent a few hours with him, bought his books, and found him to be a fine fellow. Also, Larken Rose is in the new movie which I worked on - MOLON LABE: How The Second Amendment Guarantees America's Freedom.   http://www.molon.us

Larken Rose has his own style as an individual. Josie The Outlaw has her style. Josie can reach millions of Americans without alienating them anywhere nearly as quickly as Larken can alienate people. Larken is careless with words, in that he is so deeply absorbed in his personal philosophy of freedom that he has lost certain sensitivities regarding how Other People interpret words. Titling a piece of work using the expression "shoot cops" is not the way to reach and teach cops. Period. To freedomistas, Larken's message is accepted, even with a grimace aside. With some notable exceptions, such as The Tiny Dot and similar works, Larken Rose insults people who do not know about liberty, which is most Americans. So, in typical libertarian style, he shoots himself in the foot by the way he approaches his readers. His masterpiece "When Should You Shoot A Cop", for example, only enrages most people before they even start to view it, and most who see the title never even open it. Larken is right about his philosophical views on liberty, voluntaryism, and cultural/social habit/norms. But is his purpose simply to be "right", or is it to help educate people who do not know about liberty principles? The "Choir" knows he's right and that his argument is strong and supported in fact. But he ain't reaching the people who NEED to hear the message, because he has - well, I don't know exactly why; I just know that he ain't getting his message out to the people who do not know about liberty but should know about it.

To his everlasting credit, he has helped Josie The Outlaw produce hard-hitting vids which do not shock people into clicking the "stop" button on their video viewer screen. Josie is easy for most cops and soldiers to listen to, and the very cops and soldiers who will accept this message of freedom from Josie will in most cases turn off Larken before they even get his video started. Being sensitive to one's target audience is a must, imo. That is why I'm interviewing Josie The Outlaw right now, as we speak. She is a happy, confident, knowledgeable, and passionate advocate for personal liberty and the personal responsibility from which that freedom comes. She likes Oath Keepers and sees what we're doing with the organization, and wants to be supportive for Oath Keepers. While Larken aims most of his messages to the Choir, Josie is aiming her message to the people at large. Her way of being herself appeals to a wide spectrum of Americana. Her message is as hard-hitting as Larken Rose's or any number of other Liberty fighters' messages, but her personal demeanor softens the blow so the uninitiated will not erect mental barriers at the outset. Josie The Outlaw is a teaching tool for the liberty movement. I'll let you know when I publish Oath Keepers' interview with her.

Take care, Gooch.
Salute!
Elias Alias

Thanks Elias.

Stay Safe
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Elias Alias on December 16, 2013, 07:27:17 am
Hey Wayd,
I was on Clarkston Road last week, heading to Logan when, just before that railed curve on the west end of the NRA range I had to stop for a herd of Antelope. Got to count 'em all. It was thirty head. They were looking at the river below, early morning. But my question is: Are you able to keep those chickens warm when it's 20 below and ice? Sheesh!

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Elias Alias on December 16, 2013, 07:44:32 am
Excellent overview, Elias.

I am continually saddened and amazed by the libertarians who, as the enemy army looms closer and closer, toss potential friends onto the other side of the ramparts.

Apparently the idea of marketing is AWOL in their DNA.

SMS,
I hear you're now in the southerly side of Hamilton/Missoula. I'll be over that way in January. You and I can hook up if you will hit this link and send me your email please. Use my name, "Elias" and it will get to me:  http://oathkeepers.org/oath/contact/

Thanks Bro,
Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: WWalker on December 16, 2013, 06:03:06 pm
Hey Wayd,
I was on Clarkston Road last week, heading to Logan when, just before that railed curve on the west end of the NRA range I had to stop for a herd of Antelope. Got to count 'em all. It was thirty head. They were looking at the river below, early morning. But my question is: Are you able to keep those chickens warm when it's 20 below and ice? Sheesh!

Salute!
Elias
I just provide them a draft free indoor environment and keep the water from freezing with a heat lamp, and feed them...they do the rest.

Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: jamie on December 17, 2013, 03:47:47 am
I have always regarded the majority (NOT ALL) soldiers as "throw away males" from the societies and governments they protect.  There are exceptions, but large chunks of the soldiers over time are those that have tendancies that misfit them for regular society.   There are a few groups of soldier however that do not, I tend to think of them as popular militia who form up on a local basis for defense of their town, city, farms, and are pretty much like the local sports team the rest of the time.  Doing extra things that have them trained for when the bad days come.......

In the modern era wars have become so technical that there almost has to be a group of professionals that know all about the planes, tanks, and machine guns if for no other reason than to avoid the fate of the Palestinians and Native Americans.  Unable to unite and fight effectively against a larger possibly more advanced threat.

Armies and Governments (as in the guys that defend an overall society by merely existing) need to stay minimal.  Like a couple of college staffs and a few PhD's on the subjects around.  Just to deal with the larger issues around the world, like Hitlers, Stalins, and UNs.

I have always regarded soldiers in ground combat units as the best of America.  Some of them may not be but they aren't  the majority. They aren't "throwaways" as you describe.  The better units, Rangers, 82nd Airborne, maybe 10th mountain, SF, Force Recon, maybe line Marine infantry aren't as you describe. I realize the dominant TMM meme is contrary to this.  I don't agree.  I don't agree with the Silver's of this forum in this respect.

.  Combat support and support are a different story.

There are many more aspects to ground combat than what you probably conceive of as 'technical' .

And then there are ARNG units. So in spite of people like Silver and their hatred of soldiers, the jury is still out there guy.
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: Rarick on December 31, 2013, 09:27:58 am
Over time= over history.  The soldiers of the modern era are highly trained technically savvy professionals.  The soldiers of ww1 and ww2 were of the quantity has a quality all its own variety of mass produced force......

A lot of veterans have a self resourceful, independent minded and often liberty minded minset which makes them unfit for being the sheeple TPTB want for easy farming.  That makes them unfit for general society that they protect......
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: S. Jester on December 31, 2013, 12:39:58 pm
*
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: ZooT_aLLures on December 31, 2013, 01:08:46 pm
Quote
A lot of veterans have a self resourceful, independent minded and often liberty minded minset which makes them unfit for being the sheeple TPTB want for easy farming.

Sucking up veterans benefits and living on social security by now.............One of the main "sheeple" points is feeding from the hand of the shepherd, and accepting that the theft is legitimate.........and they'll do just about anything..........including voting an asshole like Arapio(Hitler wannabe) into a position to assure that the feed keeps coming in.

It's far cheaper to rent souls than to buy them..............hence the welfare state we live in now...........with an additional aspect being..........the rent payments can stop at any time........so they get the souls at a fraction of the sale price, and can hold them hostage as well under threat of stopping payment.

One might be forced to "pay into" the system via taxes and such..........and in many respects that "is" supporting the system of enslavement..........but one doesn't have to and isn't forced to "take" the stolen money..........it's a free choice in that regard, and "it" just as much as paying in, serves to support the system................
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: bennie on January 01, 2014, 04:50:28 am
Quote
A lot of veterans have a self resourceful, independent minded and often liberty minded minset which makes them unfit for being the sheeple TPTB want for easy farming.

Sucking up veterans benefits and living on social security by now.............One of the main "sheeple" points is feeding from the hand of the shepherd, and accepting that the theft is legitimate.........and they'll do just about anything..........including voting an asshole like Arapio(Hitler wannabe) into a position to assure that the feed keeps coming in.

It's far cheaper to rent souls than to buy them..............hence the welfare state we live in now...........with an additional aspect being..........the rent payments can stop at any time........so they get the souls at a fraction of the sale price, and can hold them hostage as well under threat of stopping payment.

One might be forced to "pay into" the system via taxes and such..........and in many respects that "is" supporting the system of enslavement..........but one doesn't have to and isn't forced to "take" the stolen money..........it's a free choice in that regard, and "it" just as much as paying in, serves to support the system................

That pegs a few people on this board :laugh:. Some have developed a way around it by saying their involvement in a particular group is about recruiting certain types to the liberty movement so that makes it all ok for them to get back into the system, back on the grid, renew passports, tape back together those drivers licenses and soc sec cards they had once torn up....and collect that soc sec and use veterans benefits.  Some others only talk shit while never admitting their own hands are in the till.

Kind of like that tag line says: "Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed."

Me...I know I work for the state and due to being a RN for the last 35 years that has not been something I can get around as a RN. That is the ways medicine is unless one thinks they can work for butter and eggs in trade for services and still pay the rent and one's own medical bills (or not get sued for malpractice should something go wrong in treating somebody when only getting paid in eggs and butter. :laugh:) I live in my reality of life and make no excuses for it. I have never had to use the VA for medical but would if I had to.

ZooT, you are a hoot and I miss you when you are not around these boards to point out the obvious when many here try to pass gas under cover of "it's the dog that farted...not me."

Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: heyoka on January 01, 2014, 09:00:51 am
I live in my reality of life and make no excuses for it.
As do we all.
Comfy keyboard judgement and condemnation is (almost) free......and easy, apparently invigorating and ego inflating. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQMr9DvXXF8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQMr9DvXXF8)
Matthew 7
Military training is the most sophisticated and refined brainwashing there is. Some people get past it, some don't. It offers adventures of a lifetime for raging hormone jugend.
It makes fertile recruiting ground for various positions of authority, from loco local po-po to the ever expanding TLAs.
Some are genuinely altruistic and buy into the "fighting evil" meme. Some of it's real.
Some (probably mostly NCOs and ground pounders), get how effed up it is, and become well trained Milgram experiment outliers.
 
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: slidemansailor on January 01, 2014, 11:05:22 pm
I spent most of my life feeding the machine ... indirectly mostly, but for 3 years, 8 months and 11 days during "the Vietnam era", directly.

I completely comprehended and accepted the libertarian philosophical concepts of accepting nothing from big brother. No handout was okay. Keep your distance. Stay pure.

One day an emotionally close, geographically distant friend of my age slapped me in the face ... "You are putting in while I am taking out."  Sadly, in approximately equal amounts.

Holey crap. I'm feeding the monster that I hate while he is bleeding it.  Who is doing the better thing?

Of course both of us are insignificant gnats. But the point was very well taken... startling even. 

A tiny bit of research showed me that I could have every bit as much money in my pocket if I moved to the other side.  Since the management I was working under was, to be polite, HORRID, I took my leave and moved over to the parasite class.

A parasite on a wholesome host is a bad thing.  I'm not so sure how to classify a parasite on an evil beast.  Are you?

Meanwhile, I rail, organize and prepare against the evil that approaches us, while keeping myself from starvation via the dole that they assume I am dependent upon. 

Interesting side benefit - lulling them into that belief that I feel obliged to them.  AssUming THAT couldn't be much farther off the mark.

Nothing could please me more than a full awakening of the people with the demise of the true parasitic class, the ruling elites, as a result.
Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: ZooT_aLLures on January 02, 2014, 11:01:30 am
Quote
A parasite on a wholesome host is a bad thing.  I'm not so sure how to classify a parasite on an evil beast.  Are you?

A parasite is a parasite.......period.........and were it not to be feeding on an evil beast.......it'd be looking for another host to feed on.........it doesn't care whether it's wholesome or evil, only that it can feed on it.

And I look daily into the mirror, and I really don't see an evil beast, and even though I'm forced to be the host for parasites, I DON"T have to be a parasite myself.......I only become a parasite if I make a willing choice to indulge in the results of the plunder of other nameless faceless people who also happen to be forced to be hosts for those who do choose to be parasites.

Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: ZooT_aLLures on January 02, 2014, 11:53:21 am
Quote
Some have developed a way around it by saying their involvement in a particular group is about recruiting certain types to the liberty movement so that makes it all ok for them to get back into the system, back on the grid, renew passports, tape back together those drivers licenses and soc sec cards they had once torn up....and collect that soc sec and use veterans benefits.  Some others only talk shit while never admitting their own hands are in the till.


It's been said:
An honestly mistaken man, when confronted by truth, either ceases to be mistaken, or ceases to be honest.

Title: Re: Time for the oath keepers to expand
Post by: DiabloLoco on January 02, 2014, 01:19:41 pm

It's been said:
An honestly mistaken man, when confronted by truth, either ceases to be mistaken, or ceases to be honest.
Nice!  :thumbsup: I may use that one sometime. Is it a quote by you, or someone else?

EDIT- Nevermind :laugh: Found it!

Quote
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken, or cease to be honest. --Unknown