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9/11 Discussion => Post-9/11 => Topic started by: usmc2541wife on August 08, 2009, 12:19:12 pm

Title: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: usmc2541wife on August 08, 2009, 12:19:12 pm
Would you guys be willing to help sort out the differences?
IOW.....post a new Conspiracy theory that is potentially dangerous to our sanity VS what is really happening?

For example, have "they" already started these "camps"? So many people are saying they have!

If possible.......please don't just keep the topic on "camps" but bring in other theories. I have heard several.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: Bear on August 08, 2009, 12:44:44 pm
usmc2541wife,

Here's the problem with trying to get sort out fact from fiction: any thing that's built or organized
can be re-used for some other purpose than for what it was originally intended. Let me take the
'FEMA camps' story as an example.

Haliburton received some money from a no-bid contract to be ready to build detention camps
on short notice. This we know for a fact.

It's rumored that Haliburton did some 'tests' as a sanity check for their plans, and these are most
likely poles-and-fencing structures seen in some odd places.

Ok, so why was this deal done in the first place?

There were some predictions that there could be a flood of illegal Mexicans coming over the
border, and DHS/INS wanted a place to park them while they sorted things out. At the time,
that seemed hard to believe, and even more so as our economy started to tank and many
Mexicans have gone home.

However, there are some facts coming to light now that our government probably predicted,
and makes the whole thing believable.

Mexico's oil is running out. Their oil exports, which fund their welfare and public works projects,
is slowing to a trickle, and it's now predicted that they will be a net oil Importer within 10 years.
If they can't sell oil, they can't pay for welfare and other subsidies. Many Mexicans may figure that
it's better then to be poor in the US than poor in Mexico. THAT could lead to the flood of illegals
that the camps are intended to house.

Just for the sake of argument - let's assume that this has all been above board, and the camps are
exactly what they are claimed to be. But a detention camp is a detention camp, and once they are
built they could be used for any purpose.

House political dissidents? Sure, why not.

House pandemic victims? Sure, why not that too (and it would explain the gas works seen at one
at one 'camp'. Need to have crematories if people die off to rapidly to bury.)

The thing is, the government is not a monolithic block of people who are all on the same page with
the same agenda. There is no way to predict what will happen, and dwelling too much on
what could happen can waste a lot of your time.

So it's back to basics: make preps to provide for you and yours in the circumstances that are most
likely to happen where you live.

Bear

Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: canadian on August 09, 2009, 12:15:46 am
The first thing you need to remember is that a conspiracy theory is only a theory until it's proven. Then it's just a plain old conspiracy.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: SoupMonkey on August 09, 2009, 08:49:12 pm
I first started hearing about FEMA camps back in the early 80s. Reagen was elected
and we were all going to die in a nuclear hell. At least those of us not living in FEMA camps.
Not really sure how that turned out. At least I don't remember shaking an AK-47 at someone
and screaming "Wolverines!"
Reality Check: Paranoia is not a mental disease, its a fact of life.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: usmc2541wife on August 09, 2009, 09:06:30 pm
Thanks, Bear! I have heard a variety of explantations and saw some video's, but yours makes more sense.
SO, the camps are there.........and it's just a matter of how they will use them. I don't think it's a matter of IF.......it's a matter of how and for what purpose they will use them. But, they will be used the way things are going. :rolleyes:

NEXT CONSPIRACY THEORY!!
GW BUSH KNEW ABOUT 9/11!! :laugh:

Oxi??
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: Klapton Isgod on August 09, 2009, 09:08:59 pm
Thanks, Bear! I have heard a variety of explantations and saw some video's, but yours makes more sense.
SO, the camps are there.........and it's just a matter of how they will use them. I don't think it's a matter of IF.......it's a matter of how and for what purpose they will use them. But, they will be used the way things are going. :rolleyes:

NEXT CONSPIRACY THEORY!!
GW BUSH KNEW ABOUT 9/11!! :laugh:

Oxi??

ROFL.  We have a whole sub-forum dedicated to it, lol.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: usmc2541wife on August 09, 2009, 09:13:06 pm
Oh boy...........I guess I don't want to go there. :huh:
Or do I?
Hmmm.....makes me headachey thinking of trying to defend my position. Believe me, many people at my forum believe this to be true. I just do NOT see it as REAL!
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: Klapton Isgod on August 09, 2009, 09:19:18 pm
Oh boy...........I guess I don't want to go there. :huh:
Or do I?
Hmmm.....makes me headachey thinking of trying to defend my position. Believe me, many people at my forum believe this to be true. I just do NOT see it as REAL!

My advice would be this...  Before you try to defend your position, give some of the oposing positions an honest look.  You might be surprised.  FWIW, after about six years of dismissing anything other than the official story, mostly because it was too horrifying to consider any other, it was this presentation that made me doubt:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b74naeawdCs&feature=PlayList&p=4DA7A9264FD5CF85&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=1
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: usmc2541wife on August 09, 2009, 10:01:20 pm
Klapton,
I just took some time to view about 4 parts of this......not in succession........Part I.......and them jumped to some further up, and then Part 13.
One thing I noted was that most of the stuff mentioned was done in 2007.
So, then I went to the website AE911.org.
I couldn't find, when I searched, anything NEW that they are doing.

Looking at some of the percentages of people wanting a new investigation......the percent was 51%. Hmm...........those must be 99% of the 52% that voted for Obama!
Yes, there has always been the Rosie O'Donnell, Bill Maher theory of explosives in the building, so 16% of the people feel there was something else inside the building.
Having taught Science, I can see what they are saying regarding the color of the "aluminum" flowing out. It should be silver! That's true.
SO, I have been open to theories that perhaps there was more of an INSIDE job than just the planes. Although, let us not forget the jet fuel on a fully fueled plane from LaGuardia to the Twin Towers!! LOTS!
Also, within 21 days, things were still burning.
Of course!
I saw it! I was right there within those 21 days and saw the devastation! I stood near the barricades and smelled the smell and saw the smoldering ruins.

Regardless, going back to a government involvement. Even this architect does not say it was the gov. My feeling is, the GOV was not inside......but there most likely were more terrorists who most likely worked in the towers.........who possibly set it up! So, that when the planes hit.......it was even worse!

We also, never were attacked after this! Geez.....why not? Bush was prez....he coulda done MORE, right?
We do need to know more, yes.......but I will BET GW had no knowledge!
Hmmmm.....maybe his dad did?
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: Klapton Isgod on August 09, 2009, 10:28:56 pm
You can bet his little brother Marvin, who was head of the company in charge of security at WTC before 9-11 knows something.  Whether he let people with explosives in there because he's evil or because he's a bungling idiot like his brother would be the next question.

All that the ae911truth guys are saying is that the official reports are BS, and that a new, independent investigation should be made.  (One NOT headed by Bush admin insiders like the previous investigations.)  They don't go beyond just pointing out the scientific and architectural evidence that points to controlled demolition.  Who or why they leave to others.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: Bear on August 09, 2009, 11:01:21 pm

My doubts about 9/11 hinge on the issue of the third building collapse (#7 or #5?). If this building
was blown down, then it means there was foreknowledge that an attack was going to happen. There
couldn't be any other explanation, as it takes time to set charges to demolish a building.

The minimum involvement of our government then was knowing it would happen, an deciding to
not stop it so that they could take advantage of the disaster. Whether they planned it or just let it
happen, it is equally evil in my book. So it really comes down to whether the stories about the third
building be blown down are are true or not.

Bear
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: mouse on August 10, 2009, 04:17:06 am
Government involvement in 9.11?  Probably not.  Though I always thought that you cannot rule that out entirely.

Shortly after "9.11 doubt" started to surface in America and there was a surge of videos and articles on 9.11 inconsistencies and questions,  I was watching one video (I think it might have been "loose change", I'm not sure).  At the end there was a random, nameless, old woman shouting in the street about 9.11.  She said, something along the lines of, "if you think anyone could have pulled off all this without government being involved, you're crazy".  I had to admit that that was very true.

I never was much of a "conspiracy theory" person, until I started to read about things like "Ruby Ridge" and "Waco" (though admittedly they weren't "conspiracy theories" as most of the fact with regard to these two things have never been disputed).

I always thought there was "something very fishy" about the JFK assassination, but I never formulated any opinions.  I am just absolutely convinced (now after reading about it) that there was far more to it than the mainstream media told us.

As for 9.11, I believed the official story for all of about an hour until I got to work (I worked at the time in a shop selling and repairing computers and TVs so I was surrounded by different images of the towers collapsing, all day) and someone pointed out to me that the official story was utterly fantastic and denied the basic laws of physics.  Then that day the mainstream media (I didn't even know at that time that there was any other media) was hammering the stock exchange angle and what a "coincidence" it was, the millions made on put options etc.

That was enough to sow the seed of doubt and the more I looked into it, the more ludicrous the official story was proven to be.  Then I read about Mohammed Atta's amazing fireproof passport and that the "aeroplane" that hit the pentagon "disappeared into a whole far smaller than it should have" (again a physical impossibility), I pondered the collapse of bldg 7 in exactly the same manner as 1 and 2 and saw that it was never even claimed that it was hit by a plane and I saw footage of people like first responders talking of "explosions" and what totally clinched it was reading about the massive amount of moulten steel and realising that it would be impossible to convince even a backward three year old that fire (from jet fuel) could melt steel.

It may have been that other government members were involved, I don't know.  But I'm sticking with my theory that Bush didn't know any details, but was just told "something big is going to happen on the 11th, so just shut up and do exactly as you're told to do and look suitably shocked".  This is because his demeanour on the day when he was visiting the school in Florida (in my opinion) told us that.  I also remember seeing a picture on the cover of a magazine (might have been time) a few months after 9.11.  It depicted a close up of GW Bush in a helicopter hovering over NYC and as he saw the devastation a tear rolled down his face.  Pretty hard to fake that reaction.  I think he was expecting something, but not something as devastating as that.  Maybe it was never meant to be that bad, but went terribly wrong.  Maybe it was meant to be worse.  Who knows.

As for theories of who was behind 9.11.  I really have absolutely no idea, I don't know enough about American politics,  the government certainly gained a lot out of it, but then so did a lot of others too, Larry Silverstein and not only the money he made from the insurance, but the money he saved by not having to have the buildings made free of absestos, the beneficiary of the missing trillions and the missing gold, and the beneficiaries of the destruction of the files involving cases against corporations for corruption etc. (Enron was one, but I can't recall others right now).

Then there are other "conspiracy theories" that I have a hard and fast opinion on.  For instance I will never believe that the death of Vince Foster was anything other than murder, after reading the facts (just the basic facts like the position the corpse was in etc.) made that obvious in my opinion.  Maybe "Vince Foster" is not a conspiracy theory either because there is so much evidence to point to "suspicion".

I must have got really cynical in my old age because a little while ago when I came across an article about the news story of the "suicide" of Dr Ivins the "anthrax suspect", I immediately started looking for evidence that it wasn't a suicide, mainly because the "anthrax thing" was - I had assumed - so transparently "inside job" and as far as I was concerned the theory that anthrax was sent to people by "unknown terrorists outside the USA" was widely discredited - well I thought so anyway.  To me Ivins genuinely committing suicide was out of the question, I didn't even consider that it was true.  Just after I read about it, I went to a Christian discussion forum that I frequent and someone had posted a news story on Dr Ivins' "suicide" and I was surprised to see that a couple of people had taken what the news story said to be fact beyond a doubt and said things like "well thank goodness, doing an awful thing like sending anthrax through the mail".  I was horrified because I assumed that everybody had "smelled a rat" just as I did and replied saying "... the elephant in the room .... " and the response I got (pretty quickly considering that it was the early hours of the morning in America) was almost hostile.  I realised that that wasn't the forum to discuss things like that, and dropped it.

I have always believed that "7.7 - or the London Bombings" in 2005, was a UK government job.  I have never wavered on that opinion and base it on correspondence via email I was having at the time with an old friend who has lived in London for 20 years.

Separating fact from fiction is a problem with "conspiracy theories" as there is so much information on (say) 9.11 and it all cannot be true.

My solution is that I believe the things that seem most logical to me, things that "add up".

Check out "operation Northwoods" if you have trouble believing that any government could be that sneaky.  (This (ON) started a theory that plans for 9.11 had been round for some time and had been submitted to every incoming president since WWII and Bush was the only one dumb enough to say "sure boys, that's a great plan, go ahead".  Well it's an idea anyway.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: Contrarian on August 10, 2009, 05:30:11 am
I have proof that at least one conspiracy theory is true;
The Congressional Act of 1871. (incorporation of the "United States of America" within the confines of D.C., among other things)

I could include the Lieber Code of 1863, the Federal Reserve Act of 1913 (look into the brothers Warburg), the declaration of bankruptcy of the united States of America, Geneva, Switzerland in 1933, the adoption and gradual implementation of the UCC in 1938, the National Security Act of 1947...

People, there is too much to list. It can (and has) been ignored by many generations, ours being merely the latest.

Nothing the "Government" has done should be considered a "mistake" as all governments do as they please, and the outcomes are planned far in advance.
There are no coincidences, only the illusion of such.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: Klapton Isgod on August 10, 2009, 08:15:41 am
Nothing the "Government" has done should be considered a "mistake" as all governments do as they please, and the outcomes are planned far in advance.
There are no coincidences, only the illusion of such.

The problem with this view is that we see tons of evidence of government actions that clearly have "unintended consequences."  In other words, the Evil Mastermind model contradicts the "couldn't take a shit without screwing it up" model of government.  And to be honest, I'm not sure which to believe, because they both have the ring of truth to them.  Most likely it's more complex than that, with elements of both.  Because one cannot deny that LOTS of things the government does are just plain STUPID ...  way too stupid to be the work of evil geniuses.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: usmc2541wife on August 10, 2009, 09:38:03 am
JFK..........I do believe there was a plan by government in this. After watching a series of video's and reading articles, it seems highly possible. They even tie the Bush family in on that one too as well as LBJ.

Going back to 9/11.......Klapton, I never knew Marvin Bush had these security ties. I went to bed last night thinking about that. Hmmmm.....
But, I have to agree with mouse that GW's reaction at the school and the tear was authentic.
After this discussion last night, I started watching video's of the Booker Elementary School. I STILL believe that the president did what he ahd to do......remain calm. One crazy article said that he asked for a burger right afterward. Even if you believe he knew, do you actually believe he would ask to EAT?
I have to admit in my search last night too.....I ws surprised that Bush said he saw the first plane hit on tv. There was no way he saw it as this event did not show in the media until they had citizen video's .........so why he would say that is confusing to me.

Say all these conspiracy theories are true, like the 9/11 and Bush.
What is the purpose of the involvement of the gov? Money? Fame? Power? Perhaps it's naivete on my part, but I am looking for the WHY right now. What purpose would these things serve? Why?
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: Klapton Isgod on August 10, 2009, 10:08:04 am
I have to have a life-threatening wasting disease to lose my appetite.  No mere emotional trauma can override my belly.  That's why I'm a fat guy.

To understand possible government motives for 9-11 involves at least a few layers of tin-foil.  Check out "The Project for a New American Century."  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century  This thinktank put out a document that stated (I'm paraphrasing) that their plans for American dominance in the 21st century would require an attack or threat to America, something like "a new Pearl Harbor."  Donald Rumsfeld was one of the authors of this document.

Another tinfoil layer is the idea that our government is corrupted by wealthy elites with financial interests in American aggression.  The "military-industrial complex" that Eisenhower warned us about.  Without the Cold War, these wealthy elites no longer have their gravy train.  Try to figure out who got rich off these two wars, and you will find people who had possible motives for 9-11.  Find out what politicians they bribed made "campaign contributions" to, and you have likely candidates for consiracy.  This is where Dick Cheyney comes under heavy suspicion.

And ALL politicians have something to gain by the growth of government in general.  That's why the republican party is so full of shit when they talk about smaller government (most don't even bother TALKING about this anymore).  They simply grow different PARTS of the government.  DHS didn't exist before 9-11.  Other law enforcement and intelligence agencies have ballooned since 9-11.

So why does this benefit all politicians?  Here's why...  What is the #1 way to get UN-elected in America?  Be in power when a recession hits.  (#2 is to raise taxes... that's why both parties LOVE the Federal Reserve and the ability to tax people via Inflation Tax...  Because the sheeple are completely unaware of this hidden tax, and no politician has to vote for it or be accountable for it.)  What's the best way to mask recession and keep unemployment down?  Create "jobs" out of thin air, funded by stolen tax dollars, of course!  The Republican party, in spite of their past rhetoric about small or limited government go along with this, or perhaps make pretend objections to fool the people, but end up supporting the growth of government anyway, because they know that if the economy takes a dump, they are likely to lose power.  (Or rather, if the voting sheeple KNOW the economy sucks is more like it.  The REAL economy has been in steady decline since the 1980s.)
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: Basil Fishbone on August 11, 2009, 12:28:35 am
In doing false flag operations, governments are able to alarm the public, and use the power of the controlled press, to convince them to acquiesce in the deliberate and planned destruction of the Bill of Rights, the imposition of a police state, diminishment of traditional, constitutional legal rights, property rights, privacy rights, all of it.   Historically, one of the clear uses for false flag operations is to be able to blame them on the country you wish to attack and in the course of your war, impose domestic controls.   Or they could be blamed on domestic opponents of the impending dictatorship, as an excuse to declare martial law and suspend the constitution.  Then they begin to try to round up those dissidents to put them in Haliburton's concentration camps ($385 million paid by the U.S. taxpayers)... door-to-door searches for guns ...
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: mouse on August 11, 2009, 03:23:14 am

My doubts about 9/11 hinge on the issue of the third building collapse (#7 or #5?). If this building
was blown down, then it means there was foreknowledge that an attack was going to happen. There
couldn't be any other explanation, as it takes time to set charges to demolish a building.

The minimum involvement of our government then was knowing it would happen, an deciding to
not stop it so that they could take advantage of the disaster. Whether they planned it or just let it
happen, it is equally evil in my book. So it really comes down to whether the stories about the third
building be blown down are are true or not.

Bear




Well actually in the scenario that you just painted, the minimum involvement of the government would be to demolish at least building seven (thereby destroying all the records of pending court cases against corrupt departments and corporations and "destroying" all records of the tenants in Bldg 7 (I say "destroying" in inverted commas because I don't believe that they have really been destroyed, I believe that they were removed beforehand) .  So even if you believe that they were merely "taking advantage of the disaster", it implies foreknowledge because - as you said - it takes time to set charges for a deliberate demolition, so they must have had at least a few months foreknowledge to enable that to happen.

What "stories about the third building" are you referring to?  (I'm not being sarcastic, just really asking).
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: mouse on August 11, 2009, 04:54:41 am
Nothing the "Government" has done should be considered a "mistake" as all governments do as they please, and the outcomes are planned far in advance.
There are no coincidences, only the illusion of such.

The problem with this view is that we see tons of evidence of government actions that clearly have "unintended consequences."  In other words, the Evil Mastermind model contradicts the "couldn't take a shit without screwing it up" model of government.  And to be honest, I'm not sure which to believe, because they both have the ring of truth to them.  Most likely it's more complex than that, with elements of both.  Because one cannot deny that LOTS of things the government does are just plain STUPID ...  way too stupid to be the work of evil geniuses.


It is probably true that everything the government does, they do with incredible incompetence and total stupidity, too stupid to be the work of evil geniuses.  However, doesn't 9.11 just prove that point?

I mean 9.11 was conducted with such idiocy that it is OBVIOUS that there had to the hand of government in there somewhere.  People just believe that the governmnent wasn't involved because they said they weren't and so many people are only too willing to believe anything the government says (to quote someone, somewhere on these boards, but I can't remember where I saw it now "if the government told people to go out and buy excrement and feed it to their kids, most people would do this).

I mean the official story is utterly absurd, claiming that the laws of physics were suspended for that day is ludicrous - yet people believe it.  The idea that this could have been planned and directed from a cave in Afghanistan is ludicrous, the idea that Mohammad Atta's passport could somehow fly out of a burning plane, pass undamaged through the building, surviving an epic disaster that melted structural steel designed to withstand temperatures of 2000 degrees Fahrenheit, incinerating both planes’ cockpit recorders and black-box recorders, and vaporising the flesh and bones of nearly 3,000 people, and land undamaged on the pavement below, is utterly absurd, the fact that we are expected to believe that a plane with a wingspan of 144ft can fit into a hole 16ft across, is absurd and stupid, now that is a real stretch of the loyalty of all the government "yes men" around, it is also very stupid, ridiculous, idiotic, in fact it is beyond stupid - it is mega-stupid.

And you said that much of what government does is mega-stupid, and all these things were mega-stupid, so?

Seems to fit for me.

The fact that this was all pulled off "successfully" is not the fault of government competence in any way, it is absolutely due to the fact that people are so incredibly obsequious that they'll believe any old dumb tale, and that for everyone who laughed at things like "making cellphone calls from aircraft when that was not possible in 2001", and "... hullo Mom, this is Mark Bingham...." there are so many people willing to call them "callous" and accuse them of "insulting people who have just lost loved ones".

Sure, it was "successful" in the fact that it had the desired result, but here everything was done very clumsily - it could have been done far better.

The stupid, incompetent government didn't successfully pull all this off, the thousands of people who are only too eager to "cooperate" with government, did.  Fortunately the number of such people is decreasing by the day as more and more wake up to reality.

Perhaps these people are the real evil geniuses.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: MamaLiberty on August 11, 2009, 11:09:52 am
I've read about these things, of course, but I don't spend a lot of time on them usually. First I try to determine just how much it would affect me if it were true, and then I try to figure out what I could do about it. If the answer is not much and nothing, then I have more important things to do... such as prepare the best I can for WHATEVER comes down the pike.

Somehow, it just doesn't seem to me that my survival in a Wyoming snowstorm is going to be affected by "camps" in California - or wherever, bad and unfortunate as they would turn out to be if true.  There's just a limit to what I can do about it.  And simply worrying about it doesn't accomplish anything.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: Basil Fishbone on August 11, 2009, 11:46:53 am
Quote
I've read about these things, of course, but I don't spend a lot of time on them usually. First I try to determine just how much it would affect me if it were true, and then I try to figure out what I could do about it. If the answer is not much and nothing, then I have more important things to do... such as prepare the best I can for WHATEVER comes down the pike.

Somehow, it just doesn't seem to me that my survival in a Wyoming snowstorm is going to be affected by "camps" in California - or wherever, bad and unfortunate as they would turn out to be if true.  There's just a limit to what I can do about it.  And simply worrying about it doesn't accomplish anything.
Posted on: Today at 04:54:41 AM

Yet you can always find time to make a point like this.  Refusal to educate yourself about what the elites have done and are doing to us and plan to do to us makes you much less effective at helping to protect our liberty.  If martial law is declared Northcom is going to be very interested in rural Wyoming, particularly the northeast.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: Elias Alias on August 11, 2009, 11:51:53 am
JFK..........I do believe there was a plan by government in this. After watching a series of video's and reading articles, it seems highly possible. They even tie the Bush family in on that one too as well as LBJ.

It was not necessarily "the government" - I think it was a few criminal-minded individuals who worked inside the government. There is a huge difference between "the government" and "criminals who've worked their way into seats of government power".

Quote
Going back to 9/11.......Klapton, I never knew Marvin Bush had these security ties. I went to bed last night thinking about that. Hmmmm.....


There is more to it than Marvin Bush's proximity to the WTC. I won't go into it here, but Wirt Walker was also involved.

Quote
But, I have to agree with mouse that GW's reaction at the school and the tear was authentic.
After this discussion last night, I started watching video's of the Booker Elementary School. I STILL believe that the president did what he ahd to do......remain calm.

Remaining calm is not what a President is supposed to do when he learns that his nation is under attack. Taking immediate action is what any President is supposed to do.

Quote
One crazy article said that he asked for a burger right afterward. Even if you believe he knew, do you actually believe he would ask to EAT?
I have to admit in my search last night too.....I ws surprised that Bush said he saw the first plane hit on tv. There was no way he saw it as this event did not show in the media until they had citizen video's .........so why he would say that is confusing to me.

Yup. You're totally correct - that was not shown on TV that morning; yet Bush-43 said twice in public that he saw the first plane hit the first tower. I've done a piece on that, which you may read here -

http://www.jeffersonrivercoalition.com/911_Unplugged.htm

Quote
Say all these conspiracy theories are true, like the 9/11 and Bush.
What is the purpose of the involvement of the gov? Money? Fame? Power? Perhaps it's naivete on my part, but I am looking for the WHY right now. What purpose would these things serve? Why?

Ah, you have put forward the question of the Century. The "why" of it all. I think I can actually furnish you with an answer to that question - at least, I can furnish an hypothetical explanation as to "why" false-flag operations are conducted by our clandestine services. It has to do with keeping most of 300 million Americans alive and well, and preserving the war-based Western Civilization until some surrogate for war can be installed.  The first premise I'll offer you is that psy-ops and black-ops are both undertaken under what the military and Intelligence communities call "Unconventional Warfare" - and the purpose of psy-ops is to affect public perception, direct focus in desirable ways, and promote beliefs which are advantageous to the agenda of government, which operates in mysterious ways to bind the union and defend the union. It's all very involved, but this view of how and why government employees (some of them, the secret-government ones who do the black ops and psy-ops, for example) will literally conduct terrorism on U.S. soil for the greater benefit of the mass of 300 million citizens, has substantial supporting evidence.

Salute! And Semper Fi!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: Elias Alias on August 11, 2009, 11:57:33 am
In doing false flag operations, governments are able to alarm the public, and use the power of the controlled press, to convince them to acquiesce in the deliberate and planned destruction of the Bill of Rights, the imposition of a police state, diminishment of traditional, constitutional legal rights, property rights, privacy rights, all of it.   Historically, one of the clear uses for false flag operations is to be able to blame them on the country you wish to attack and in the course of your war, impose domestic controls.   Or they could be blamed on domestic opponents of the impending dictatorship, as an excuse to declare martial law and suspend the constitution.  Then they begin to try to round up those dissidents to put them in Haliburton's concentration camps ($385 million paid by the U.S. taxpayers)... door-to-door searches for guns ...

Bingo!

:)
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: MamaLiberty on August 11, 2009, 01:34:27 pm
Quote
Yet you can always find time to make a point like this.  Refusal to educate yourself about what the elites have done and are doing to us and plan to do to us makes you much less effective at helping to protect our liberty.  If martial law is declared Northcom is going to be very interested in rural Wyoming, particularly the northeast.

Basil, that was really uncalled for. I have studied government and politics for more than 40 years. Sorry if that's not good enough for you. The very depth and intensity of my study has brought me to the point where I know without question that there is NO "political solution" possible - and never was. If you still think so, then you are welcome to it.

I did not say I ignored them, I simply can't do anything about most of it. I am preparing myself for WHATEVER may happen here, including being willing and able to help defend my community. If martial law is declared, or mobs of criminals come from the cities, or whatever else actually happens, my preparations will be exactly the same. I will defend myself and my property from aggressors.

I'm simply not going to spend the time or emotional energy WORRYING about all this conspiracy stuff in detail. What the lords in Mordor plan don't really make a particle of difference in what I need to do here and now. Remember that once we've figured out WHAT they are, everything else is just haggling about the price.

If you want to worry, it's none of my affair. I just hate to see others sucked into that black hole when they could spend the time and energy in actual preparation. Everyone has to make up their own mind, of course.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: freewoman on August 11, 2009, 05:05:07 pm
Quote
IOW.....post a new Conspiracy theory that is potentially dangerous to our sanity VS what is really happening?

I have been reading about conspiracy theory for over 25 years.  During that time I've come to the conclusion that all these conspiracies are dangerous to our sanity.  Because the true battle is for the mind. 

Do I believe there is an "elite" who is attempting to control people for their own purposes?  Yes.  Can I "do" anything about it?  Well, as far as stopping them, not really.  For several years, I refused to read conspiracy theory books or look the stuff up on the internet; it made my blood pressure go up, raised my anxiety levels, and generally wasn't a good thing.  However, I have a curiosity about it, so I kept coming back.

Eventually I found a solution to the paranoia that works for me.  I can only be myself; ultimately the only mind I can really control is my own.  I can't make the elite do what I want them to do.  So I work toward my own peace of mind, in my own way.  When someone asks my opinion on something, I do my best to educate them on what's happening.  I have studied some on the subject, and I have my own opinions.  But I feel it's important to remember that these people can only cause us to fear if we allow them to do so.

Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: Radio Flyer on August 11, 2009, 05:58:38 pm
Would you guys be willing to help sort out the differences?
IOW.....post a new Conspiracy theory that is potentially dangerous to our sanity VS what is really happening?
For example, have "they" already started these "camps"? So many people are saying they have!
If possible.......please don't just keep the topic on "camps" but bring in other theories. I have heard several.

Welcome Linda, in fact I am also encouraged by all the new people, including yourself. (I was new once, even had many of my ideas challenged, well and without the typical nastiness). I don't normally hit this part of the board.

I for one do not believe in the typical "conspiracies" in fact I even give the Masons a big pass, as I think their time is over, and their goals were meet with the American Revolution, and possibly trounced again by the Hamiltonians. I do believe they have influence but it nothing compared to other modern power brokers.

I DO believe in collusion, and the subsequent "real" conspiracies many have come to light in past years. I don't believe in some huge "star chamber" but I do think that some of the hugely powerful "ole boys" clubs have very real power, say the CFR, or AIPAC, Bilderberg conference, Trilateral Commission, and to a lessor extent gatherings of power-brokers at events like Bohemian Grove.

My point is that the elite and powerful don't have to even meet to agree, in many cases they are related (powerful rich families marry into other powerful or rich families), they all go to the same exclusive schools, and are members of the same fraternities and social clubs. They don't need to have a huge central plan they simply all "think the same" and have the same goals of concentrating power and wealth - simple self interest!

From this large elite, selfish, and incestuous interrelated relationships come the smaller lickspittles and toadies, who are often given marching orders, and often that could be seen as the "real" conspiracies. Many are well documented because of this I do not "out of hand" dismiss many of the underlying issues nor discount the influance of many powerful religious groups accused of this like the Vatican, Mormons, and even social/religious groups like the Freemasons.

I'm simply not going to spend the time or emotional energy WORRYING about all this conspiracy stuff in detail. What the lords in Mordor plan don't really make a particle of difference in what I need to do here and now. Remember that once we've figured out WHAT they are, everything else is just haggling about the price.

If you want to worry, it's none of my affair. I just hate to see others sucked into that black hole when they could spend the time and energy in actual preparation. Everyone has to make up their own mind, of course.

I have to agree with ML on this one, no reason to worry too much, outside of identifying who is waiting to shackle our feet, and REMEMBERING this when it will count. My opinion is that the elite have overstepped their bounds, the economy is going to crash, and the resulting violence will drop the population in the US by 1/2 to 3/4 or more, I am using the riots of LA and the Katrina mess as an example, imagine that in full force nation wide.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: SoupMonkey on August 11, 2009, 08:45:33 pm
If Stanton had not strangled Lincoln and Oswald had not been Kennedy's love child, via Elenore Roosevelt,
then Reagen would not have bombed the Bush ranch and Obama would be bothering tourists on the streets
of Honolulu "Yo man, sell you the whole stick for five dollar".
You guys are so educational!
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: mouse on August 11, 2009, 10:55:09 pm
I've read about these things, of course, but I don't spend a lot of time on them usually. First I try to determine just how much it would affect me if it were true, and then I try to figure out what I could do about it. If the answer is not much and nothing, then I have more important things to do... such as prepare the best I can for WHATEVER comes down the pike.

Somehow, it just doesn't seem to me that my survival in a Wyoming snowstorm is going to be affected by "camps" in California - or wherever, bad and unfortunate as they would turn out to be if true.  There's just a limit to what I can do about it.  And simply worrying about it doesn't accomplish anything.

All it takes for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing! (or words to that effect)
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: jimoutside on August 11, 2009, 11:34:27 pm
One thing that bugs me about 911-- I'm not trying to be smart here, just want somebody to answer my question because this doesn't make sense to me.

I've heard it said by several people that it could not have been an aircraft that hit the Pentagon, because it did not leave a big enough hole.

Ok, so maybe it was a missile or something. Amazingly, they say it didn't do a whole lot of serious damage or loss of life on the ground, because that part of the building was being revamped. OK. Got that part. Interesting.

BUT-- what happened to that fourth plane that we were told hit the Pentagon? What happened to all those people? We have been told there were four crashes. One at the Pentagon, one in a field in PA, and two into the twin towers. So-- if not the fourth plane that hit that building, where did the fourth plane crash? In the ocean? And why bother doing that-- wasting that plane on a dud run-- when they (whoever REALLY did mastermind it all) when that plane could have been used to actually hit another target?

Do you say that the fourth plane never existed? That would take a big coverup by the airlines personnel. With all the employees in the airlines, somebody surely would have come forward and said, there never was a fourth plane? We were told there were four-- where did they all go? And why use a missile to hit the Pentagon when you have already hijacked a plane to hit it?

Where did all four planes end up?
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: oxi on August 12, 2009, 03:56:52 am
As for the Pentagon plane, you would have to look at the time frame.  The time frame when NORAD and the FAA ordered all planes to land.  That civilian airliner that supposedly hit the Pentagon could have been ordered to land at a military base or something, their are plenty of ones around Washignton and one huge one on Long Island...

That could explain a possible drone type plane taking off and striking the Pentagon, after all the air traffic controllers were busy trying to land all these aircraft and with that chaos is when things could have been conducted...

While most were shocked when 9/11 happened would have been the best time to conduct their plans...

Also can you confirm those were United and American Airlines planes that hit the towers?  Is their visual evidence?  Those could have been any type of aircraft, maybe unmarked or something...
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: MamaLiberty on August 12, 2009, 06:12:10 am
All it takes for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing! (or words to that effect)

Are you assuming then, that because I refuse to run around shouting and screaming in worry about all this crap that I am doing "nothing?"

You could not be more mistaken.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: freewoman on August 12, 2009, 07:26:33 am
All it takes for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing! (or words to that effect) (http://All it takes for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing! (or words to that effect))

I do not intend to slam mouse here, but I am not sure I agree with that statement any longer.  (Yeah, I know, that's heretical!)

I have found myself to be most effective when I choose to engage myself on a topic.  I have also found that at times, choosing to ignore something is just as effective as engaging myself.  When I turn my back to something, I refuse to give it power.

Personally I have chosen to engage myself in the areas of conspiracy theory, certain spiritual concepts, and preparedness.  Some areas of life end up in the periphery of these topics.  And other areas I turn my back upon--I refuse to accept those things as having any power over me.  That's not to say I am ignorant of their devices, just that I refuse to engage.

There are lots of battles to fight.  Not everyone can fight every battle.  So it's important, IMO, to choose one's battles according to one's interests and abilities.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: mouse on August 12, 2009, 07:56:34 am
All it takes for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing! (or words to that effect)

Are you assuming then, that because I refuse to run around shouting and screaming in worry about all this crap that I am doing "nothing?"

You could not be more mistaken.

Yeah, I guess I owe you an apology.

I was thinking of "... it must be seen to be done ..." when I said that.

If we do not react to things that annoy us, it looks to others (maybe only me - can't find an "embarrassed" emote but I'm sure you get the gist) like we are ignoring it and don't care.

Being in NZ it would be so easy for me to not react to just about everything (because although there is most definitely no shortage of things to react to that happen in NZ, there are no 'juicy conspiracy theories to get your teeth into') but I don't let anything slide because I know pretty much that what happens in America, UK - or just about anywhere else for that matter - will soon happen here.

We don't get affected directly by most of the conspiracy theories, but we CERTAINLY were and are affected by 9.11.  I don't want to have to show ID at the local airport (not that anybody is seriously expected to do so, it is taken as a bit of a joke) but I would like to be able to go to America or UK without being fingerprinted.  In fact I feel so strongly about that that I just won't ever go to these places any more at all (not that I could afford it anyway - but that's not the point).  It makes my blood boil, every time, to hear "... but since 9.11..." on the radio or TV.  I seethe about it and brood on "how can people pretend so much when it is all so obvious ...."

As for preparing for when tshtf, well that's just impossible for me at the moment.  I work in a factory for mimimum wage and live with a family who don't share any of my views.  They tolerate my going to church, and my daughter in law even agreed to have her two babies dedicated to my church, but they won't have anything to do with it themselves and nobody takes down the wooden cross that I have hanging from the mirror in my car, when they drive my car (although I had to threaten my son with "never being able to use the car again" before he would leave it alone).  I think they think that they are indulging me, or humouring me.  And as for conspiracy theories, no I think I would just encounter hostility if I said anything about any of them.

So long live the internet.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: mouse on August 12, 2009, 08:07:02 am
If Stanton had not strangled Lincoln and Oswald had not been Kennedy's love child, via Elenore Roosevelt,
then Reagen would not have bombed the Bush ranch and Obama would be bothering tourists on the streets
of Honolulu "Yo man, sell you the whole stick for five dollar".
You guys are so educational!

What about the theory that just after WWII there were twin boys born to princess Elizabeth (as was) of UK (now Queen Elizabeth) and Colonel (as was) Douglas McArthur of the US army.

Apparently the twins were sent to America to live with a cousin, and they were christened Luther and George.  Luther became a famous historian and writer of childrens' books but history is unclear about what happened to George.  Rumour has it that George was adopted into the Bush family of Texas, where the father of the family (who was also called George) was active in politics.

I have always wondered about that conspiracy theory, but can find nothing on the 'net about it.  Wonder why.  Got any info.?
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: mouse on August 12, 2009, 08:23:10 am
One thing that bugs me about 911-- I'm not trying to be smart here, just want somebody to answer my question because this doesn't make sense to me.

I've heard it said by several people that it could not have been an aircraft that hit the Pentagon, because it did not leave a big enough hole.

Ok, so maybe it was a missile or something. Amazingly, they say it didn't do a whole lot of serious damage or loss of life on the ground, because that part of the building was being revamped. OK. Got that part. Interesting.

BUT-- what happened to that fourth plane that we were told hit the Pentagon? What happened to all those people? We have been told there were four crashes. One at the Pentagon, one in a field in PA, and two into the twin towers. So-- if not the fourth plane that hit that building, where did the fourth plane crash? In the ocean? And why bother doing that-- wasting that plane on a dud run-- when they (whoever REALLY did mastermind it all) when that plane could have been used to actually hit another target?

Do you say that the fourth plane never existed? That would take a big coverup by the airlines personnel. With all the employees in the airlines, somebody surely would have come forward and said, there never was a fourth plane? We were told there were four-- where did they all go? And why use a missile to hit the Pentagon when you have already hijacked a plane to hit it?

Where did all four planes end up?


My view is that it had to be a missile because a plane couldn't have been flown that low and that skillfully to do minimal damage and cause a fuss without actually badly damaging the building.  It is noteworthy that the "missile" hit the only part of the pentagon building that was reinforced to withstand an attack by an aircraft.

I don't actually believe that there was a fourth plane at all.  I think it didn't exist.  Normally when a plane is missing thought to have crashed somewhere you have the airport where it came from beseiged by relatives and friends of the passengers wringing their hands and waiting for news about their loved ones, hoping beyond hope that they somehow missed that flight, or were bumped off the passenger list or something.  If this happened I sure didn't hear about it.  This wouldn't really take a big cover up involving lots of airport staff, airport staff are known for "doing what they're told, and shutting up" and with a bit of "sleight of hand" here and there, not many people needed to know about it.

Even if there was a fourth plane, why so hard to believe that it ended up in the sea?  Parts of the ocean are so deep that you'd never know anything was there in 100 years.

"Where did all the planes end up"?  Well if I wanted to get rid of some physical evidence, I would dismantle it, carefully making sure that any marks of identification have been removed and "recycle" whe parts, sending them to China.

So the next can of cococola you get could be made out of recycled airliner (number - take your pick).

Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: jimoutside on August 12, 2009, 08:45:27 am
Ok, you could be right about that, but what about all those people who were supposedly on those flights, who got killed? Were they fictitious names? Does anybody personally know any of these several hundred people who were presumably killed in the aircraft? Were they going on a trip that day and disappeared? Did anybody see them off at the airport and watch them board planes? I do know that when I fly, somebody usually takes me to the airport and sees me get on a plane. That may not be the case for everyone, but I imagine at least 1/3 of the people who got on the planes may have had friends or relatives who dropped them off at the airport and waited to make sure their plane took off.  So what about these people? Did they really die? This still does not explain the airline's silence, with them having so many employees who would know whether a plane actually did take off or not, or was missing.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: MamaLiberty on August 12, 2009, 08:59:21 am
Yeah, I guess I owe you an apology.

No offense taken, actually. Thanks anyway. :) I just get soooo tired of hearing this from well meaning people who just can't imagine that their way to "do something" is not and CANNOT be identical to that of others.

Our only real chance is to do everything possible, each within our own lives, location and abilities.

And, of course, those who wish to keep us slaves and steal our property are delighted when we fight about this sort of thing. In fact, they often do whatever they can to promote the division and fighting, don't you think?

Let's not encourage them. :)
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: jimoutside on August 12, 2009, 09:21:10 am
I'm NOT saying that the article at this link is true, but I just bring it to people's attention to show what the official word is.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=4

And they are right about steel appearing to be melted when it is heated partway to the melting point and then put under force that causes it to shred, twist, bend, etc. And steel really does lose much of its strength the more you heat it. Combine that with the actual physical impact of the plane's wings hitting the building at high speed, many of the steel structural components would have been destroyed from the force of impact, even though the plane is made of softer materials than steel. The same thing happens when a lead or copper bullet penetrates a certain thickness of steel-- it is the inertia or kinetic energy that can cause a high speed projectile to penetrate a substance harder than itself.

Just throwing this all out for food for thought. I'm not an expert, and y'all can jump all over me as much as you want for not toeing the line. I am neither proving nor disproving anything, I just say I have doubt in my mind about the conspiracy, and do not have PROOF of what really happened, one way or the other.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: freewoman on August 12, 2009, 11:06:28 am
If Stanton had not strangled Lincoln and Oswald had not been Kennedy's love child, via Elenore Roosevelt,
then Reagen would not have bombed the Bush ranch and Obama would be bothering tourists on the streets
of Honolulu "Yo man, sell you the whole stick for five dollar".
You guys are so educational!

What about the theory that just after WWII there were twin boys born to princess Elizabeth (as was) of UK (now Queen Elizabeth) and Colonel (as was) Douglas McArthur of the US army.

Apparently the twins were sent to America to live with a cousin, and they were christened Luther and George.  Luther became a famous historian and writer of childrens' books but history is unclear about what happened to George.  Rumour has it that George was adopted into the Bush family of Texas, where the father of the family (who was also called George) was active in politics.

I have always wondered about that conspiracy theory, but can find nothing on the 'net about it.  Wonder why.  Got any info.?

Not sure if that is a conspiracy theory--more likely a conspiracy hypothesis, or conspiracy "WTF is that supposed to mean"; IWO, not much actual research done there.  Unfortunately stories like this don't help the conspiracy cause at all.  Makes us all look loopy.  (Personally I don't need any help in that department!  I have enough crazy ideas on my own.)  I'm not calling you loopy, mouse--you didn't originate the rumor!

jimoutside:  Please see the many threads in the 9/11 part of the section on steel melting, etc.  In that way, this particular thread won't get too far off track.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: Elias Alias on August 12, 2009, 04:28:29 pm
I'm like Paul Revere. I can't beat the Redcoat army, but I damn sure can pass the word of encroaching danger.

There is nothing I can do about the social security number. There is nothing I can do about the Federal Reserve. There is nothing I can do about the Federal income tax. There is nothing I can do about Pentagon lobbies. There is nothing I can do about the military-industrial complex. There is nothing I can do about the NYSE. There is nothing I can do about one damned thing - if I choose to look at life that way. Right?

So why bother? Why is TMM even here? It's a waste, an exercise in futility, right? Because nobody can do anything about anything anyway, so why bother? I should just close down this place and go mow my lawn, lay in some more rice and water in my basement, clean my guns, write some poetry, play with my cat, and wait until the tyranny comes to visit me at my home. Then I can do something, right?

Of course, if I'm wrong to think that way, (which I would be, of course), then perhaps it's a good idea to host a discussion forum where all sorts of views and questions and analyses can be aired and debated. Maybe that's why I leave this place up and running. And if I'm correct in my motive for leaving TMM up here on the Net, then why can't we at least let some of our more informed post-makers discuss 9/11 without trying to throw cold water on the discussion by claiming there is nothing we can do about it anyway?

TMM is one of my horses. The British are coming! 9/11 Truth is important! Please don't block this horse.

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: mouse on August 13, 2009, 03:34:59 am
Ok, you could be right about that, but what about all those people who were supposedly on those flights, who got killed? Were they fictitious names? Does anybody personally know any of these several hundred people who were presumably killed in the aircraft? Were they going on a trip that day and disappeared? Did anybody see them off at the airport and watch them board planes? I do know that when I fly, somebody usually takes me to the airport and sees me get on a plane. That may not be the case for everyone, but I imagine at least 1/3 of the people who got on the planes may have had friends or relatives who dropped them off at the airport and waited to make sure their plane took off.  So what about these people? Did they really die? This still does not explain the airline's silence, with them having so many employees who would know whether a plane actually did take off or not, or was missing.


My personal theory (I am not trying to "push anything down anyone's throat" here, I acknowledge that I could be wrong and invite correction) is that the planes did, of course, take off from the airports where they were supposed to have done, landed somewhere (forced landing, or maybe trickery) and military planes - maybe painted to look like commercial airliners - took their places and were flown into the buildings by remote control.  The "real" planes were landed somewhere (probably at military bases) and then the plane and all the passengers was disposed of.

"Snake Plissken" puts it succinctly in 'flight of the bumbleplanes' when he says:  "The four original Boeings had conventional controls. The look-alike Boeing and the two small jets were drones, rigged with remote control. You called it Global Hawk, and that's good enough. The mimic planes could have been piloted or remote controlled".

It is worth noting that there wasn't a single piece of evidence ever recovered from anywhere relating to the alleged commercial aircraft.  Everything was destroyed, black boxes, flight recorders, alleged passengers, everything.

What happened to the family members of this flight? This was looked into for for two years and it was impossible to locate a single relative of any "passenger".  Not one family member of any of the passengers took a single penny from the government!!!  Why?  Where are they?  I cannot find an answer that makes sense.

When you read about "victims families", they are all the families of victims of people in the buildings or near the areas.

And quoting "Snake Plissken" again in "flight of the bumblplanes" "Muslim names don't appear on the passenger lists of the four flights. The hijackers' names don't even appear on the list of passengers released by United on September 12 — the list of passengers on Flights 175 and 93".  

And:  "The number of the passengers on each flight was kept artificially low that day. Easy to do. Just monkey with the airline computers and show the fights full so no more tickets are sold. Include some of your own operatives in each flight, maybe".  

Also an unusually low number of passengers were aboard each of the hijacked flights that morning. Flight 11 and Flight 175, both Boeing 767s with approximately 180 available seats, had 76 and 46 passengers respectively. Flight 77 and Flight 93, both Boeing 757s with approximately 200 available seats, had 50 and 26 passengers respectively.

So that's not a heck of a lot of people anyway.

What this 30% passenger occupancy essentially means is that on each of the flights that were hijacked that morning, every passenger on every plane had an entire row to themselves to lie down.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: jimoutside on August 13, 2009, 07:39:11 am
Very interesting. Thanks for that. I did read through the entire passenger lists for all four planes right after it happened. I didn't expect to find anyone I knew (I would have already heard, right), but there were all the names and I read through them. If no one with relatives from the flights has stepped forward, then it could be that the flights and passenger lists were bogus.

So tell me about the one that went down in the Pennsylvania field? They found remains there, didn't they? Now, as for the cell phone "couldn't work", I don't look to that as proof because it wasn't so much that cell phones didn't work in an aircraft as much as that they were not allowed to be used in an aircraft to keep the signal from interfering with navigational aids. At higher altitudes, they probably couldn't get a signal anyway, but weren't the "terrorists" supposedly flying at low altitude?
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: freewoman on August 13, 2009, 07:47:05 am
jimoutside:  There is a ton of information in the 9/11 section of the forum on these very subjects.  Let's allow usmc41wife's thread remain as is.  It will take some reading--there are some long threads in the 9/11 section!--but your questions can mostly be answered there.  And if you have further questions, post them in the 9/11 area.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: jimoutside on August 13, 2009, 09:42:08 am
ok.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: mouse on August 13, 2009, 09:57:52 am
Very interesting. Thanks for that. I did read through the entire passenger lists for all four planes right after it happened. I didn't expect to find anyone I knew (I would have already heard, right), but there were all the names and I read through them. If no one with relatives from the flights has stepped forward, then it could be that the flights and passenger lists were bogus.

So tell me about the one that went down in the Pennsylvania field? They found remains there, didn't they? Now, as for the cell phone "couldn't work", I don't look to that as proof because it wasn't so much that cell phones didn't work in an aircraft as much as that they were not allowed to be used in an aircraft to keep the signal from interfering with navigational aids. At higher altitudes, they probably couldn't get a signal anyway, but weren't the "terrorists" supposedly flying at low altitude?

The truth is that they found surprisingly few remains of anything in the Pennsylvania field, and it has been suggested that what they did find were "plants"; to quote from an article on 9.11 truth:

Wally Miller, the coroner at Shanksville said he found no blood, but found human remains. When pushed on the question of finding human remains, Miller said...Yes/No/Some....and then said that the only remains found were hands and feet - nothing else. So, did Mr. Miller find 40 pair of each? If so, how is it that no other body parts survived? How is it that there was no blood?  

Also apparently the body parts were (specifically) half of a left arm and 2 internal organs, which were not "discovered" until the next day.  "Hands and feet" - a bit exaggerated I think.  I know I have a nasty suspicious mind, but it sounds just like a "plant" to me.

I believe that in 2001 it wasn't that "you weren't allowed to make cellphone calls from aircraft because they interfered with navigational aids" at all.  You couldn't make cellphone calls from aircraft while it was in the air because that was an impossibility, there is no way you'd ever be able to get a proper signal.  In the time since 2001 the technology has been upgraded so that you now can do this, but then, there was no way.  There was no way cellphones would work on aircraft in 2001 even at low altitude, but I have not read anything to suggest that they flew all the way at low altitude.

OK, so this was pointed out and the story was changed to "but most of the calls were made from the aircraft's airphones.  Now apparently the people who allegedly talked to people on the ground said that all passengers and crew were "herded to the back of the plane and guarded by hijackers", so how is the use of an airphone possible?

Also presumably they have not had "willy nilly" access to credit cards, and without credit cards airphones just cannot work.  There is no doubt at all, at least for me, that any "telephone calls" of any kind between hijacked aircraft passengers and relatives, friends, "emergency services" or airport ground staff have been faked bigtime.  The technology to do so has been around for some time now, remember the most famous line (I think it was in an advertisement) of Colin Powell saying "I have been treated well by my captors" - voice morphing technology.

Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: freewoman on August 13, 2009, 11:14:19 am
mouse--As usual, your perspectives are appreciated.  However, I think the discussion should shift over to the 9/11 part of the board, so this thread may retain its original purpose.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: mouse on August 13, 2009, 06:43:40 pm
Sorry, I just couldn't resist answering jimoutside's questions.

Anyway, it seems it was crossposted.

Will try to keep on-topic in future.  I just find this subject irresistible.  It seems to have been a "taboo" subject for so long.  And up until now you could not discuss it with Americans, so I find it amazing that suddenly you can.

Post something about another conspiracy theory and we'll take it from there.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: securitysix on August 14, 2009, 12:49:52 am
And quoting "Snake Plissken" again in "flight of the bumblplanes" "Muslim names don't appear on the passenger lists of the four flights. The hijackers' names don't even appear on the list of passengers released by United on September 12 — the list of passengers on Flights 175 and 93".  

This is in no way a compelling argument.  If you're looking to hijack a plane, would you rather buy your ticket as "Hammoud Ali Ahmad Hammoud" or "Steve Johnson"?  Which name is more likely to draw unwanted attention?  And you can easily handle "Oh, you don't look like a 'Steve'" with "I was adopted".  It's not hard to convince someone your name is something other than what it is if they're not inclined to look too hard and you give them a plausible reason when they do. 

Don't believe me?  Call AT&T's main tech support number some time.  Odds are you'll get some nice young man named "Ben" or Steve" who sounds like Apu or some nice young woman named "Grace" or "Sally" who sounds like Minjula.  Most people don't even think twice about it. 
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: Elias Alias on August 14, 2009, 01:10:31 am
And quoting "Snake Plissken" again in "flight of the bumblplanes" "Muslim names don't appear on the passenger lists of the four flights. The hijackers' names don't even appear on the list of passengers released by United on September 12 — the list of passengers on Flights 175 and 93".  

This is in no way a compelling argument.  If you're looking to hijack a plane, would you rather buy your ticket as "Hammoud Ali Ahmad Hammoud" or "Steve Johnson"?  Which name is more likely to draw unwanted attention?  And you can easily handle "Oh, you don't look like a 'Steve'" with "I was adopted".  It's not hard to convince someone your name is something other than what it is if they're not inclined to look too hard and you give them a plausible reason when they do. 

Don't believe me?  Call AT&T's main tech support number some time.  Odds are you'll get some nice young man named "Ben" or Steve" who sounds like Apu or some nice young woman named "Grace" or "Sally" who sounds like Minjula.  Most people don't even think twice about it. 

Uhmm, I don't think one can purchase a ticket on an airplane without a credit card number and valid driver's license - both of which facilitate security checks, background checks, no-fly-list checks, credit checks, etc. It's a whole lot more complicated than having a discussion at the ticket counter about being adopted.

It allegedly had to have happened nineteen times in one morning. The government has used fake passenger lists, fake airplane tail numbers, fake funerals, fake press publicity, and more, in psy-op and black-op programs since at least 1962. The proof -

http://www.jeffersonrivercoalition.com/northwoodsdocument.htm

But please allow me to note on point in fine-tuning this debate - there are hundreds of questions, pro and con, surrounding the official government story of 9/11. We are not nearly as prepared to ask some questions as we are to ask others. For example, the freefall speed of the demolished buildings of the WTC on 9/11 - that is a stone-cold indictment on the government's story. Same goes for the nano-thermetics found in the rubble of those three buildings. The absence of a 757 in the Pentagon is another sure-fire point on which we can safely focus in proving that the government's story is a lie. Best to stick with those areas which are unimpeachable, and after we get a truly independent (civilian-run, not government-run) investigation with full investigatory powers, we can answer all the little questions which at present are not productive.

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: mouse on August 14, 2009, 07:38:25 am
This is a real dilemma.

I know I said I would try to stick with the original topic, but this debate is so enthralling and I just cannot resist it.  Is there a way that the "9.11" part could be moved up one board?

Alias Elias is, of course, absolutely correct in everything he says.  (But in 2001 I guess there were no "no fly-list checks") but I also believe that it has been for quite a while now that no one can board an aircraft without some sort of proof of identity (so much for the basic right to anonymity in travel as well as most other things).

I am totally convinced that 9.11 was an inside job, have been since a few days after the events first unfolded and evidence started to mount of a major cover-up.  Actually it's almost embarrassing, I have read so much about it that I can either think of answers "off the top of my head" or immediately know where to go to look for information and I haven't even been to America in 30 years.  The last two years has provided a "God-send" upsurge in evidence being uncovered - or at least publicised.  So it is only natural that people who previously had believed the official story or not thought much about it, are now starting to ask questions.

I have found that the best way to handle this, without alienating the person (which seeming over-enthusiasm can do) is just to answer their questions - any question that they raise.  Otherwise people can suffer from "information overload" and may not appreciate being bombarded with data about the physics of the towers' collapses and the nano-thermite, or even the melted steel.  Some people, particularly those living nowhere near New York, are more interested in the "Pentagon plane/missile" thing.  So I figure that once they believe that there was something fishy about that, and then believe that they simply cannot believe anything at all about the official story to do with the Pentagon/Shanksville/missile/plane/passengers/bodies etc. then they will automatically think the same thing about the NY WTC complex.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: mouse on August 14, 2009, 09:28:24 am
Separating conspiracy theory from conspiracy fact.

Here's another one that people don't seem to want to discuss.

The anthrax scandal.  Well this would be a conspiracy theory, but it seems to have been acknowledged by the US gov't that the antrax thing didn't have anything to do with middle Eastern terrorists and they blamed one of their own scientists, Dr Bruce Ivins, who "declared himself to be guilty by committing suicide".  It has been more than a year since the US governnment considered the case closed, but there is a general belief that "he didn't do it".  Here's an article from a year ago talking about the FBI bullying Ivins.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,398466,00.html

FBI Used Aggressive Tactics in 'Anthrax Killer' Investigation

WASHINGTON —  Before killing himself last week, Army scientist Bruce Ivins told friends that government agents had stalked him and his family for months, offered his son $2.5 million to rat him out and tried to turn his hospitalized daughter against him with photographs of dead anthrax victims.
The pressure on Ivins was extreme, a high-risk strategy that has failed the FBI before. The government was determined to find the villain in the 2001 anthrax attacks; it was too many years without a solution to the case that shocked and terrified a post-9/11 nation.
The last thing the FBI needed was another embarrassment. Overreaching damaged the FBI's reputation in the high-profile investigations: the Centennial Olympic Park bombing probe that falsely accused Richard Jewell; the theft of nuclear secrets and botched prosecution of scientist Wen Ho Lee; and, in this same anthrax probe, the smearing of an innocent man — Ivins' colleague Steven Hatfill.
In the current case, Ivins complained privately that FBI agents had offered his son, Andy, $2.5 million, plus "the sports car of his choice" late last year if he would turn over evidence implicating his father in the anthrax attacks, according to a former U.S. scientist who described himself as a friend of Ivins.
Snip

I think that article has got it pretty right. The thing that made me "smell a major rat" about this is that

THERE WAS NO AUTOPSY

And according to what I have read the American government is almost obsessive about autopsies, autopsies are required - in most states - even if it is pretty obvious why someone died but they died alone and hadn't seen a medical practitioner in some time.

It is my belief that after the FBI failed in it's attempt to set up Dr Steven Hatfill and had to pay out money, they "went for" the "next person on the list", and not wanting to have to pay out money again and be made to look silly by the media, they killed their next victim. (That's just my personal belief, and I am not stating it as fact).

The other thing that "stank badly" for me was, I wondered why this bloke allegedly killed himself using tylenol and codeine, which is a horrible, slow, painful death, and it takes at least 48 hours between taking the overdose and death occurring. As a scientist Dr Ivins would have realised this and would have had access to a whole labaratory of other drugs that would do a quicker, cleaner job.

Was there also a rushed cremation?  Does anyone know?

This could extend to the government's habit of "suiciding people"

Erwin Rommel knew too much about what Adolf Hitler and the Nazis were doing, so he conspired a plan to assassinate/oust Hitler and Rommel ended up being suicided by the Nazis in the end by taking a cyanide pill given to him by the Nazis.

Bruce Ivins also knew too much. For years the American government has been pointing it’s fingers at Steven Hatfill as the lone suspect in the anthrax attack after 9/11/01. He was the sole perpetrator until just recently when he received a $6 million dollar settlement from the government. Then suddenly Bruce Ivins “commits suicide” and it’s reported that he is the sole perpetrator of the anthrax attacks.

And remember when Enron executive Cliff Baxter supposedly killed himself right before he was supposed to testify?  Then there's Vince Foster, Gary Webb (who shot himself twice in the head, both bullets having the capacity to immediately disable or kill him), David Kelly, Kenny Johannemann or Deborah Jean Palfrey.  And I'm sure there are many others but I can't cannot think of them right now.





Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: jimoutside on August 14, 2009, 09:17:01 pm
Yes, I'll definitely agree whole-heartedly with the involuntary suicide thing. I think it's an age old practice, but I wonder how many times these current-day thugs think they can pull it off without the public being 'spicious. I just always wondered who it was that did it / arranged it. Clinton people? Freewheeling FBI or CIA? World Bank people? UN people? Others?
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: mouse on August 15, 2009, 02:12:41 am
Yes, I'll definitely agree whole-heartedly with the involuntary suicide thing. I think it's an age old practice, but I wonder how many times these current-day thugs think they can pull it off without the public being 'spicious. I just always wondered who it was that did it / arranged it. Clinton people? Freewheeling FBI or CIA? World Bank people? UN people? Others?

Who did it/arranged it?  Purely opinion and speculation, but I reckon the FBI can, and always has, been relied upon and willing to do most of the killings.  It seems that some real psychopaths work for the FBI and are absolutely in their element as pathological killers - they can even kill without fear of being prosecuted and sent to jail.  I will even go as far as to say that if many employees of the FBI didn't have the FBI to hide behind, they would probably be serial killers or career criminals.

UN people are generally too wimpy, but that would not stop them hiring a killer to do their "dirty work" as long as the killer in question didn't force any details on them as to what he had done on their behalf and they were never confronted with any accusations.

Clinton people?  Well there can be do doubt that a lot of the people Clinton associated/associates with are not above killing, or in fact doing anything else that they thought they had to do in order to enhance the careers of either Clinton.

The CIA?  Most definitely.  The CIA employs psychopaths pretty much likewise as the FBI.  However, very much like the FBI, their killers are clumsy, careless and don't even bother to cover their tracks.  Or maybe - like true psychopaths - they want their killings to be a warning to others.  "Don't mess with us because we are all powerful".

World bank?  Na, they would come under the "too wimpy" bracket, just like the UN.  Though definitely not above hiring people to "do their dirty work".

As for "freewheeling FBI or CIA", I don't believe there is such a thing, there doesn't need to be, they employ all the psychopaths they need.

Opinion and conjecture, anyone feel free to disagree.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: Contrarian on August 22, 2009, 08:35:58 am
Say all these conspiracy theories are true, like the 9/11 and Bush.
What is the purpose of the involvement of the gov? Money? Fame? Power? Perhaps it's naivete on my part, but I am looking for the WHY right now. What purpose would these things serve? Why?

Open this only if you have time to read.

http://libertygunrights.com/documents.html
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: Jarel on October 01, 2009, 10:44:12 pm
Hate to do this, but if you want to check out some fairly defintiive 9/11 info, check out "Missing Lnks" (vid) Made me nauseous; if even half of it is true, we are the shadow puppet of the natin of Ysraely moossadd. Many many angles.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: RadicalLibertarian on October 11, 2009, 11:19:13 pm
People label me a conspiracy theorist all the time. Anything besides the accepted government propaganda is considered a conspiracy. I question everything. The government should never have the benefit of the doubt, because if they do you will lose a free society as we are seeing now.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: Jarel on October 15, 2009, 08:50:04 pm
It's funny, really: my experience has been such that the term 'conspiracy theory' was invented by people who are thumbing their collective noses and saying 'bite me' at the rest of humanity. The notion that some evil group is going to swoop in under cover of a 'disaster' or some sort of national emergency situation is widely held to be conspiracy theory, only in my case the Fibbies ASKED me if I wanted to be on the UN team when I filled out the paperwork for a top secret clearance while I was in PSYOP at Ft Bragg. Biowarfare using viruses as a means of population control, another 'theory', discredited even by people I consider friends, only I went to Zaire with a 'humanitarian' (VERY important word) medical team of Green Beret medics and helped put people in line to be administered a test version of a fairly famous monkey bug. Found out after; still it doesn't sit right. 9/11? From hundreds of angles, the accepted story just doesn't work, not the least of which is the existence of software on the aircraft which allows someone on the ground to control it in the event of this particular problem. Pentagon having the best air defense system in the world to protect it failed; hole too small for a plane; buildings collapsing in New York, including one hit by NOTHING. FEMA camps that don't exist, except when one is listening to the radio and a rep of FEMA is interviewed by locals who bring out the info that a modular kit is on-hand, in the county, and can house 15,000 in a town of 30k. For me the question is not 'are there conspiracies' as much as 'what is my saturation point in learning the truth'. People in big cities listen to the Voice of America radio network (CIA owned) read AP news (CIA owned) and watch Anderson Cooper on the tele (CIA family, CIA experience of his own) and say that Operation Mockingbird, an op that injected govmint misinformation and misinformers into the mainstream media with the full knowledge and blessing of the owners is just a conspiracy theory. And I DIDN'T know people from 1st SOCOM 4th PSYOP who went to CNN HQ and posed as college interns, no indeedy. Pay no attention to that banker behind the curtain, folks, no conspiracy there, global warming is REAL, AND DANGEROUS, not just Club of Rome/World Bankster econ theory, and JFK didn't bother us at ALL when he signed executive order 11110, effectively killing the Fed Reserve 6 months before he was shot, just a coinkidink. Microbiologists (virus doctors) having by far the highest per-capita untimely death rate. Ad Nauseum.  :rolleyes: :mellow:
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: Elias Alias on October 16, 2009, 01:38:57 am
It's funny, really: my experience has been such that the term 'conspiracy theory' was invented by people who are thumbing their collective noses and saying 'bite me' at the rest of humanity. The notion that some evil group is going to swoop in under cover of a 'disaster' or some sort of national emergency situation is widely held to be conspiracy theory, only in my case the Fibbies ASKED me if I wanted to be on the UN team when I filled out the paperwork for a top secret clearance while I was in PSYOP at Ft Bragg. Biowarfare using viruses as a means of population control, another 'theory', discredited even by people I consider friends, only I went to Zaire with a 'humanitarian' (VERY important word) medical team of Green Beret medics and helped put people in line to be administered a test version of a fairly famous monkey bug. Found out after; still it doesn't sit right. 9/11? From hundreds of angles, the accepted story just doesn't work, not the least of which is the existence of software on the aircraft which allows someone on the ground to control it in the event of this particular problem. Pentagon having the best air defense system in the world to protect it failed; hole too small for a plane; buildings collapsing in New York, including one hit by NOTHING. FEMA camps that don't exist, except when one is listening to the radio and a rep of FEMA is interviewed by locals who bring out the info that a modular kit is on-hand, in the county, and can house 15,000 in a town of 30k. For me the question is not 'are there conspiracies' as much as 'what is my saturation point in learning the truth'. People in big cities listen to the Voice of America radio network (CIA owned) read AP news (CIA owned) and watch Anderson Cooper on the tele (CIA family, CIA experience of his own) and say that Operation Mockingbird, an op that injected govmint misinformation and misinformers into the mainstream media with the full knowledge and blessing of the owners is just a conspiracy theory. And I DIDN'T know people from 1st SOCOM 4th PSYOP who went to CNN HQ and posed as college interns, no indeedy. Pay no attention to that banker behind the curtain, folks, no conspiracy there, global warming is REAL, AND DANGEROUS, not just Club of Rome/World Bankster econ theory, and JFK didn't bother us at ALL when he signed executive order 11110, effectively killing the Fed Reserve 6 months before he was shot, just a coinkidink. Microbiologists (virus doctors) having by far the highest per-capita untimely death rate. Ad Nauseum.  :rolleyes: :mellow:

Helluva post, Bro. Well said. Liked your rapid-fire freeze-and-squeeze staccato rendition of psyop-synapse association.

But while you're here, I'd like to ask if you've got anything you may like to share about Unconventional Warfare.... it's becoming a favorite topic for me. Just askin', if you please.

Also, aside, gentlemen like you are always welcome over at Oath Keepers - oathkeepers dot org Thanks for a good post.

Salute!
Elias

Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: Jarel on October 17, 2009, 10:52:45 pm
Thanks, Elias--high praise. Since you and I have spoken personally, and I have a pretty good feel for what you already know based on your own research, I don't know what I could add, as I believe you have great instincts already. But just for fun,...
When I was at Bragg I had a CO who got as his next assignment the job as Domestic PSYOP Liaison at the Pentagun, which basically means that he was the man when it came to foreign countries having questions about how to do the deal on their own Citizens. On another level, it means that he was the man when it came to TV and Hollywierd doing the deal here at home. Now, pretty much everyone knows that the mainstream news is a bunch of hooey, completely intended to keep us in the dark, but I wonder how many people get that the intended effect of shows like Law and Order, 24, NCIS, and CSI is to create a mindset that does not under any circumstance question the government as anything but good people trying to get the bad people out and keep us safe? It's called legitimization, and the reinforcement techniques are usually fairly straightforward once you know what to look for. For instance:
I have a friend who DVRs a lot of shows. While I was at her house this very evening I watched a portion of the show numb3rs. This episode was about how this mathematician's daughter had been kidnapped by a "very bad man" because math geek had cracked an equation which would open up the entire system of cryptography and the bad man was going to perpetrate a monstrous online crime. So the hero builds a cryptographic trap for mr bad guy, they sit back and wait for him,...at the internet front door of the Federal Reserve. You know where this is going, because most everyone on this forum knows what the Fed really is. So the process of implanting into the unsuspecting mind both the legitimacy of the Fed as an honorable institution as well as the inherent evil of anyone who messes with it begins; after all, the bad guy kidnapped a little girl, and by the process of personal identification, he may have kidnapped YOUR little girl. The emotional imprinting of the video-based is intensely effective; I can't tell you how many times I've heard people identify something they saw in "Dubya" by Ollie Stone as REAL TRUTH instead of a movie that made me wonder if Dubya ACTUALLY got a blowjob from ol Oliver.
"Hancock" is a movie about a black superhero whose publicist has a BMW with the license plate "GREEEN 44" that came out right before Obama, the 44th president and resurrector of the "Green Revolution" is elected. I know, it's tenuous, but it's there, they had to make the plate.
Denzel Washington does a movie BEFORE 9/11 about Islamic terrorists blowing shit up in NY, where at least they show that the fanatics are a product of CIA. Religious and racial fear and hatred creating boogeymen. At one point, Denzel holds up a piece of paper that says "BP Vat". Big pricks Vatican? What would make the CIA engage in false flag terrorism that is religious but an unseen director? Like maybe a Jesuit?
How many morality-based ad campaigns do you hear every day? Just who is the Ad Council? They are a network of 375 families who started the org as the Emergency Wartime Ad Council during WWII, about the same time as the UN, the incubating CFR, and the nation of Israel. How many ways do they preach safety? How many ways does that imprint fear? How many ways can you market docility? Controllability? Keep your friends close, your enemies closer? How much closer is there than under your wing (Democrats)? Does the GOP represent DADDY, Dems MOMMY? :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: Jarel on October 17, 2009, 11:25:24 pm
cont.

The point that I may or may not be effectively getting across is that there are literally hundreds of ways that the State, the Establishment, is using to get us off guard, keep us off guard, kill your thinker, use us against each other in a war they declared against us all a long time ago, and if I could give any sort of advice, it would be to kill your TV, even the most mindless of entertainment is a weapon against the truth, against your MIND. The first time I ever heard the term 'kill your TV' was in fact from the aforementioned officer during the conversation where I learned about his new job.
The other thing is that I would, if you care to, learn what they are actually saying when politicians use the word 'humanitarian', 'freedom', 'justice', 'democracy', 'nation', and most especially 'asymmetrical threat'. Just 'cause I'm kind of a rebellious smartass, I've started a dictionary of my own at http://www.restackthedeck.com/  (http://www.restackthedeck.com/) The language of politics, environmentalism, big busines and banking in the media is laced with the modification strategies of eugenics, implemented right after they found out that direct action archetypes like Hitler and Stalin weren't going to work. Public opinion problem.
Beyond that, I constantly ask myself "what do I think I know that is total bullshit"? Keeps me learning. Always remember Glen Beck weeps about freedom with a great view from Rockefeller Center, and that ain't no accident.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: Mad Wet Hen on October 17, 2009, 11:37:30 pm
sense I followed the white rabbit I have seen how many programs make us think that we can't fight the PTB even children's program like Babar. It is very sad. I wish I know when and where to speed up our work in stopping this. I am doing all I can to wake up people but it is such a slow proses, and time is running out.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: Jarel on October 17, 2009, 11:48:12 pm
You're fighting the good fight, don't forget it. Just when you think you can't handle any more of the BS, you'll find a way. I know it.
Faith.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: Clip Johnson on October 18, 2009, 12:03:09 am
Fascinating post/s Jarel, and equally fascinating website you have there at restackthedeck. Very enlightening stuff, and thanks a plenty for sharing.

Now I'm back to finish reading about How Barack Obama bought the president’s Office, and his office. 
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: Junker on October 23, 2009, 08:27:51 pm
Why American History Is Not What They Say:
    An Introduction To Revisionism
     (2009 PDF 2 MB (http://mises.org/books/historynot.pdf) 212p.)
  by Jeff Riggenbach

Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: freewoman on October 27, 2009, 08:44:46 am
Thanks for the link, Junker.  I'll be reading the PDF.  I majored in Social Science Education (history teaching) and had to read a range of books from different time periods.  That was my first inkling that history is not at all objective; the dates, times, and locations are similar, but the viewpoints can be radically different.  And (gasp!) von Mises et al are subjective, too.  I hesitate to accept any particular viewpoint as holy writ.  For me, understanding that each individual has his or her own perspective has freed me to uncover what I believe.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: Junker on October 27, 2009, 11:02:58 pm
I got struck by part of the problem in Amer Hist. I brought up
that the code crackers had the Japanese code broken. FDR
knew Pearl was to be hit. I was told to cease & desist. or get
out of the classroom.

This book let's me appreciate more and more of history's base
problems-- a good feeling-- but, these problems are not only
ignore, but actively clouded by the historians themselves. Oh me,
oh my!

Helpful & fun reading I thought.  :-)
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: securitysix on November 25, 2009, 01:44:18 am
And quoting "Snake Plissken" again in "flight of the bumblplanes" "Muslim names don't appear on the passenger lists of the four flights. The hijackers' names don't even appear on the list of passengers released by United on September 12 — the list of passengers on Flights 175 and 93".  

This is in no way a compelling argument.  If you're looking to hijack a plane, would you rather buy your ticket as "Hammoud Ali Ahmad Hammoud" or "Steve Johnson"?  Which name is more likely to draw unwanted attention?  And you can easily handle "Oh, you don't look like a 'Steve'" with "I was adopted".  It's not hard to convince someone your name is something other than what it is if they're not inclined to look too hard and you give them a plausible reason when they do. 

Don't believe me?  Call AT&T's main tech support number some time.  Odds are you'll get some nice young man named "Ben" or Steve" who sounds like Apu or some nice young woman named "Grace" or "Sally" who sounds like Minjula.  Most people don't even think twice about it. 

Uhmm, I don't think one can purchase a ticket on an airplane without a credit card number and valid driver's license - both of which facilitate security checks, background checks, no-fly-list checks, credit checks, etc. It's a whole lot more complicated than having a discussion at the ticket counter about being adopted.

It allegedly had to have happened nineteen times in one morning. The government has used fake passenger lists, fake airplane tail numbers, fake funerals, fake press publicity, and more, in psy-op and black-op programs since at least 1962. The proof -

http://www.jeffersonrivercoalition.com/northwoodsdocument.htm

But please allow me to note on point in fine-tuning this debate - there are hundreds of questions, pro and con, surrounding the official government story of 9/11. We are not nearly as prepared to ask some questions as we are to ask others. For example, the freefall speed of the demolished buildings of the WTC on 9/11 - that is a stone-cold indictment on the government's story. Same goes for the nano-thermetics found in the rubble of those three buildings. The absence of a 757 in the Pentagon is another sure-fire point on which we can safely focus in proving that the government's story is a lie. Best to stick with those areas which are unimpeachable, and after we get a truly independent (civilian-run, not government-run) investigation with full investigatory powers, we can answer all the little questions which at present are not productive.

Salute!
Elias

Sorry about the late response.  I wandered away from this part of the board for a while.  Anyway, I'm not saying there's not something hinky about the official story about 9/11.  On the contrary.  I watched the towers come down live that morning.  It looked like a controlled demolition to me.

My point was that Muslim names not showing on the flights means bugger all.  Yes, running a credit card will initiate a security check, but it's not like it's impossible to get credit cards in a name other than your own.  A little dumpster diving and a little fraud will get one.  If you're about to hijack a 757, credit card fraud and identity theft is hardly the biggest crime you'll be committing.  And that's even doing it the dumb way. 

Someone who has been working years toward the goal (as the alleged hijackers in the official story were) could easily have spent a little time actually establishing a fake identity that will stand up under some scrutiny, especially if they're working for someone in the government who has enough stroke to get the documents made for them.

"No Muslim names on the passenger lists" does not automatically mean there were no Muslim hijackers on the planes.

I don't buy the official story, but that doesn't mean I'm going to buy every argument against the official story, either.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: cz7 on November 26, 2009, 07:58:19 pm
ok whats real? known facts  the federal reserve ,U.N. and other real facts like guide stones of ga to picture like the newstates constitution ...all this and more for a global government -this not  theories... but facts of a socialist government are/is formed and set in motion face up to it ,like hearth care bill one more step down that socialist road ,is this a theory ? NO its happening right now! the best way to tell is when you list what this nation made on and what the culture built it also laws framed vs. whats its image today ? its very scary !!!     
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: Bluelinegirl on December 16, 2009, 06:35:26 pm
Quote
Yet you can always find time to make a point like this.  Refusal to educate yourself about what the elites have done and are doing to us and plan to do to us makes you much less effective at helping to protect our liberty.  If martial law is declared Northcom is going to be very interested in rural Wyoming, particularly the northeast.

Basil, that was really uncalled for. I have studied government and politics for more than 40 years. Sorry if that's not good enough for you. The very depth and intensity of my study has brought me to the point where I know without question that there is NO "political solution" possible - and never was. If you still think so, then you are welcome to it.

I did not say I ignored them, I simply can't do anything about most of it. I am preparing myself for WHATEVER may happen here, including being willing and able to help defend my community. If martial law is declared, or mobs of criminals come from the cities, or whatever else actually happens, my preparations will be exactly the same. I will defend myself and my property from aggressors.

I'm simply not going to spend the time or emotional energy WORRYING about all this conspiracy stuff in detail. What the lords in Mordor plan don't really make a particle of difference in what I need to do here and now. Remember that once we've figured out WHAT they are, everything else is just haggling about the price.

If you want to worry, it's none of my affair. I just hate to see others sucked into that black hole when they could spend the time and energy in actual preparation. Everyone has to make up their own mind, of course.


Forgive my not finishing this thread before commenting, this is more like 'notes' that I dont want to forget by the time I finish reading.

1. I've already forgotten who posted the link to the indescribable movie ae911truth.org  But thank you for giving your time to do it. It is a gathering consensus of Architects, engineers, explosives experts... a REAL panel of independent investigators probably as close to an offical investigation as we will ever get. I think its imperitive to watch especially if you believe your government loves you, that you are 'safe' and that 'Truthers' are wacko.  If you havent seen it yet, stop what you are doing, dont bother commenting, if after you see this movie and im sure im not alone in this opinion, if you still believe the official story, that the 'laws of physics were suspended,' that airplane fuel can burn hot enough to disentigrate 99% off 110 stories of concrete and steel into powder (but a passport can survive the actual supposed cause of the fire) or the weight of the buiding could do the same in 10 seconds!, if after you watch you still believe men in caves did this then perhaps you belong in a cave yourself. If you believe that 'someone' did this, you will know who when you realize WTC7 was The second most secure building in the US second only to the Pentagon and yet 'someone' took months installing explosives and 'Baby Bush was in charge of security? How much stentch do you need before you call shit, shit?  This was the first time ive cried about it in years! Not because I believed the story, I think Bush and Co. should be strung up. I knew from day one the official story was impossible. But there is no denying the proof of this movie. Period. And regarding the tear? Casey Anthony has cried all year as well as many many other murderers. It proves only a second of remorse or good acting.

2. Mamma Liberty, at first I agreed about 'how could you not care...' until i read your above post, I find myself at the same junction. I consider myself a very strong Patriot from a very long line of Patriots some of whom signed the original Decl. of Independence (dont ask which ones, long story short, im estranged from my fathers side of the family). When I first joined TMM I was screaming mad! Guns ready to blaze, the last several months of research (web wide) has brought me to the same conclusion...Not a damn thing we can do, except maybe pray they destroy themselves. It is just way too big and way to old and its quite arogant of us to think we can stop them when they have destroyed every civilization they choose, most recently being Russia. Im sure the Russians thought they could beat them too. Like the Russians, the best I can do is hang on for the ride and try to rebuild. I love America and Americans but historically and globally, we arent that special and its arrogant to think we can stop them. After you watch the movie you will see, its nearly impossible for a soldier with a conscious to defeat a soldier without one. If you are a soldier with a secret or special weapon then please charge on, but I am throwing rocks compared to these, what did he call them..'Evil Doers.'
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: mouse on January 17, 2010, 06:23:08 am

Forgive my not finishing this thread before commenting, this is more like 'notes' that I dont want to forget by the time I finish reading.

1. I've already forgotten who posted the link to the indescribable movie ae911truth.org  But thank you for giving your time to do it. It is a gathering consensus of Architects, engineers, explosives experts... a REAL panel of independent investigators probably as close to an offical investigation as we will ever get. I think its imperitive to watch especially if you believe your government loves you, that you are 'safe' and that 'Truthers' are wacko.  If you havent seen it yet, stop what you are doing, dont bother commenting, if after you see this movie and im sure im not alone in this opinion, if you still believe the official story, that the 'laws of physics were suspended,' that airplane fuel can burn hot enough to disentigrate 99% off 110 stories of concrete and steel into powder (but a passport can survive the actual supposed cause of the fire) or the weight of the buiding could do the same in 10 seconds!, if after you watch you still believe men in caves did this then perhaps you belong in a cave yourself. If you believe that 'someone' did this, you will know who when you realize WTC7 was The second most secure building in the US second only to the Pentagon and yet 'someone' took months installing explosives and 'Baby Bush was in charge of security? How much stentch do you need before you call shit, shit?  This was the first time ive cried about it in years! Not because I believed the story, I think Bush and Co. should be strung up. I knew from day one the official story was impossible. But there is no denying the proof of this movie. Period. And regarding the tear? Casey
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My dream is that one day people generally - those who live for sports games, TV and food - will realise how ridiculous the stories we are told really are.  9.11 is a brilliant example, the official story is so OBVIOUSLY utterly ludicrous and absolutely preposterous, but yet so mahy people continue to believe it - or at least claim that they do.

Hopefully if people generally realised what morons they are being taken for they would get insulted enough to storm the Congress, write letters and emails, letters to the editor of newspapers, make telephone calls EVERY DAY demanding accountability and that the MSM broadcast the truth.

People have been murdered all over the world, other people have had their basic human rights ripped to shreds "because of 9.11", it is way past time that it was exposed for the hoax that it is.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: cz7 on July 14, 2010, 06:05:12 pm
The first thing you need to remember is that a conspiracy theory is only a theory until it's proven. Then it's just a plain old conspiracy.
ok read about the frank church committee in the early 1970's and abandonment of the Afghanistan in the early 1990's ,also the world order thing prez bush pushing,the massive movement out of intel groups  in the Clinton years  because the cold war is over ! facts are facts... add in the deindustrialization of nation  since early 1970's with epa and unions -this is played out with the  Afghanistan because our nation is failing because of nation building skills are crippled or gone ...the other leg which is hurting is the base of culture and history of what made this nation without P/C crap or revisionism... so conspiracy theory is only a theory until it's proven but look at the real evidence -allen town pa and public schools today .. conspiracy theory ,hell it a plot add it up and open your eyes ................   
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: Jarel on July 15, 2010, 10:55:55 pm
ok whats real? known facts  the federal reserve ,U.N. and other real facts like guide stones of ga to picture like the newstates constitution ...all this and more for a global government -this not  theories... but facts of a socialist government are/is formed and set in motion face up to it ,like hearth care bill one more step down that socialist road ,is this a theory ? NO its happening right now! the best way to tell is when you list what this nation made on and what the culture built it also laws framed vs. whats its image today ? its very scary !!!     
Man, dude, slow, down. S'okay.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: superops7000 on August 13, 2011, 10:46:19 pm
I am filed with questions about this kind of stuff and that is why I joined. I want to know if FEMA connects to any of the world government theory's.
Title: Re: Conspiracy theories VS Reality
Post by: slidemansailor on September 11, 2018, 12:25:12 pm
The date and widespread acceptance of results from the official story inspired me to review an article I posted 5 years ago and the video clips I linked to from it. 

Rewatching the selected videos was a good refresher. This topic is still relevant. The culprits profited and continue to profit while innocents are destroyed en-masse.

http://www.bitterrootbugle.com/2018/09/11/happy-anniversary-4/ (http://www.bitterrootbugle.com/2018/09/11/happy-anniversary-4/)