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Activism Tactics => The Mole => Topic started by: Secret Six on September 08, 2008, 04:16:14 pm

Title: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: Secret Six on September 08, 2008, 04:16:14 pm
Please Visit The Following....

LINK (http://etresoi.ch/Denis/renounce.html)
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on September 10, 2008, 11:08:54 am
Please Visit The Following....

...

Why?

I mean, if there was some way to renounce my citizenship and still live in my same house and pursue all the endeavors I currently pursue, I could see it. I really don't want to be a citizen of any nation-state. I just want to live and be let alone. I did visit there and see, for one example, that if my grandfather was a German citizen I could renounce my American citizenship in exchange for becoming a German. To what purpose? Now I have to apply for a visa or I am an illegal alien. Really, why waste my time please visiting?
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: Secret Six on September 10, 2008, 12:55:59 pm
Please Visit The Following....

...

Why?

I mean, if there was some way to renounce my citizenship and still live in my same house and pursue all the endeavors I currently pursue, I could see it. I really don't want to be a citizen of any nation-state. I just want to live and be let alone. I did visit there and see, for one example, that if my grandfather was a German citizen I could renounce my American citizenship in exchange for becoming a German. To what purpose? Now I have to apply for a visa or I am an illegal alien. Really, why waste my time please visiting?

It was just an FYI for those seeking to do so...

I renounced my Citizenship years ago and am a resident of Margaritaville !!! :wub:
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: Rick N on September 14, 2008, 04:25:58 pm
I'd just like to point out that under federal law, those who have at any point renounced their US Citizenship are "Prohibited Possessors," barred from owning, buying, selling, or trading firearms (except maybe pre-1899 guns).
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: Scarmiglione' on September 24, 2008, 08:58:41 am
I've always found it amazing how US laws apply to non-US citizens.  How-day-do-dat?
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: Rick N on September 24, 2008, 09:31:08 am
I've always found it amazing how US laws apply to non-US citizens.  How-day-do-dat?

"'Ey man, you're on our turf!"
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: vonuvan on September 24, 2008, 11:44:41 am
I'd just like to point out that under federal law, those who have at any point renounced their US Citizenship are "Prohibited Possessors," barred from owning, buying, selling, or trading firearms (except maybe pre-1899 guns).

And are major suspects in the Patriot Act.
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: Bear on October 07, 2008, 11:27:14 am
Quote
I've always found it amazing how US laws apply to non-US citizens.  How-day-do-dat?

The laws of most nation-states apply to everyone within their borders.

Bear

Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: ZooT_aLLures on October 07, 2008, 12:15:54 pm
The laws of all nationstates extend as far as the range of the weapons they use to enforce compliance.......
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: Large on October 07, 2008, 05:54:17 pm
Zoot has got it right!
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: peacefulrevolt on February 07, 2009, 04:08:14 am
Wow!  Where do ya go and get "good status" is the fundamental question.  My friend went to panama, got run off, then went to Costa Rica, bought about 300 acres, where he seems to be doing fine but he has to pay some folks off...It's corrupt y'all...

It's not for everybody I can tell ya that.  If you want to risk it, Costa Rica is the place if you have a force to protect you because they know exactly who's there-  Like here but with Passports...

Peace
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: socalserf on February 07, 2009, 11:08:13 am
Most of you here already know Mike's story.

He renounced not long ago.

http://www.nostate.com/504/renunciation-as-divorce/

I've been reading his NoState blog for a while now.
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: onyxstar on May 01, 2009, 06:08:57 pm
well.. my ancestors are native americans and george washington. where does that leave me?.. LOL

i'm just kidding.. sorta.. lol i don't really want to renounce my citizenship.
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: Who...me? on May 01, 2009, 10:54:47 pm
Stay tuned for the inevitable Indianbellranch discourse/sales pitch on moving to India.  :laugh:
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: socalserf on May 02, 2009, 11:14:40 am
Stay tuned for the inevitable Indianbellranch discourse/sales pitch on moving to India. :laugh:

Pass.
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: jamie on May 05, 2009, 07:04:12 pm
Stay tuned for the inevitable Indianbellranch discourse/sales pitch on moving to India. :laugh:

Pass.


looked like a malarial flood plain to me.
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: Jarel on July 09, 2009, 12:37:42 pm
Take the drag ring out of your nose dumbass; this is our HOME, and without that ,...you have no home. You're going right where they want you to go; right toward "global citizen" status. Why not just get an RFID chip implant, a barcode on your forehead, and a slave collar, and skip the baby steps? The solution is to engage, mitigate, not to drop out, you pussy.
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: seditious_nick on July 09, 2009, 04:20:05 pm
I don't know about you, jamielynn, but I left home at 18.  I couldn't wait to find my own way in this big, bright world.  To make my own home.

Who the hell are you to criticize somebody else for finding their own way?  Is their only one way, the jamielynn method?

How is that "engaging" and "mitigating" thing working out for you? :wub:
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: Jarel on July 09, 2009, 06:18:10 pm
Nothing personal Seditious; don't know how it got that way for you. What I was trying to say was that there's a move on to get people to hate their national borders (nation-state), and national sovereignty, and all that old-fashioned crap. No we don't need a manufacturing base; No we don't need to protect our personal economic strength by controlling immigration by people who are used to making 50cents a day, NO we don't need to hope people will be loving and loyal to their friends and neighbors,... that's citizenship to me. Not the flag, but what it means. Not the constitution, but WHO it protects, and that's US. You, Me, All. Renouncement of citizenship is part of that move to UN theocracy, a concerted move on their part. If you bought their line, that's unfortunate. If you think it's a solution that's unfortunate. Mitigation is an answer to incrementalism, one of their tools; slowing them down is a way to help stop their march toward THE REICH. You sound like when you left home at 18, it was because of pain. Don't let that pain decide your politics. Look deeper; no one is an island, my friend. When they came for the Jews, I was not a jew, so I said nothing,...and so I say again the solution is not to drop out,.................
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: Klapton Isgod on July 09, 2009, 06:24:17 pm
JaimieLynn, I think you are misunderstanding the direction from which some folks are coming from with the idea of renouncing citizenship.  The reason someone from this community might consider this is definitely NOT to become a "citizen" of an even BIGGER tyranny.  The purpose would be to assert Individual Sovereignty - NO rulers ("anarchy").
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: Jarel on July 09, 2009, 06:35:38 pm
Which can only be a symbolic gesture. Not every system is tyranny; we just are inured maybe to the fact that that's all that seems to exist right this minute. Individual sovereignty (anarchy) is a beautiful given in a physically empty world; we as a society CANNOT be that sovereign. One man will spent the entirety of his life trying to bring home the logs to build a house,...Dig your ideals though.
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: seditious_nick on July 10, 2009, 12:12:17 pm
jamielynn,
I've been to the 4 borders of this nation.  When I looked across the Rio Grande it sure looked an awful lot like Texas ground I was standing on.  And there is no floating dotted line that demarcates the Boundary Waters Canoe Area of Minnesota from the Quetico of Canada - I've looked.  These borders are purely political designations.  The moose and deer and javalinas don't seem to care which side of an imaginary line they are on - why should the human animal?

Also I've seen where 234 years of "mitigating" and "engaging" and "patriotism" leaves us.

I'd rather see 6.77 billion* sovereign nations each holding their own freak flag high, but I suspect we as a species have not evolved enough yet for that.  Hell, we are still just savages beating the crap out of other savages because they belong to a different tribe (or because they decide they don't want to be a part of any particular tribe :rolleyes:)

 
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: Claire on July 10, 2009, 01:53:44 pm
One man will spent the entirety of his life trying to bring home the logs to build a house

Do you really believe humans only cooperate or trade with one another when directed to by government? (I doubt you believe that, but it seems implied by the quoted statement.)
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: Jarel on July 10, 2009, 06:16:12 pm
Like I said I dig the ideal of individual sovereignty, I really do, in fact I believe that the present iteration of government actually hinders human cooperation because of the power grabbing, propaganda, and social engineering bombarding people's minds. Maybe I think too much in the present, not enough of the ideal itself. Sorry to offend.
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: Claire on July 10, 2009, 06:56:05 pm
Like I said I dig the ideal of individual sovereignty, I really do, in fact I believe that the present iteration of government actually hinders human cooperation because of the power grabbing, propaganda, and social engineering bombarding people's minds. Maybe I think too much in the present, not enough of the ideal itself. Sorry to offend.

Oh you didn't offend -- at least not me, anyway. I'm just curious why you believe that without goverment, "One man will spent the entirety of his life trying to bring home the logs to build a house." I was (and am) hoping you'd explain your reason for that belief.
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: Jarel on July 12, 2009, 02:04:21 pm

The concept has nothing to do with government, only individual sovereignty, an idea populated with alot of people who seem to think that mutual cooperation is bad, that we can exist as islands, which is inherently escapist egocentricism, whereas I believe that there is no me without there also being an us, that mutuality is not so much an unfortunate side effect but one of the perks to being human, not to mention absolutely necessary to ensure the success of the individual and the species, even for a lonewolf like me. And let's face it, since the beginning of time humanity has needed some form of governance, no matter how egalitarian in nature, to smooth out the kinks between our needs our wants and our individual signatures on life. The quote comes from Thomas Paine, writing on mutuality in "Common Sense", and I believe it still holds true; no matter how technologically advanced we become we will always need each other, and there will always be a need for some sort of way to mediate the human animal in its predatory tendencies. True anarchic sovereignty is on its face nothing more than the biggest having the most; hence government. Present version, primarily theocratic in nature, needs to be made to evolve, maybe to die, partly because mutuality is one of the things that theocracy destroys in favor of loyalty to the State, worship to the Body of Law purported by the slavers. Once we evolve the governing body, destroy their unjust influence,  then we can evolve the Nature of Man, and I can't wait. This is one of the things makes me wish we could time-travel.
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: seditious_nick on July 12, 2009, 10:18:55 pm
jamielynn,

The key is voluntaryism.  Your citizenship, without an option for renunciation, is not voluntary.
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: Jarel on July 13, 2009, 03:47:49 pm
jamielynn,

The key is voluntaryism.  Your citizenship, without an option for renunciation, is not voluntary.
Don't really know what you mean by that. We always have a an option to renounce citizenship. Happens all the time with people who don't have any ties to the geographic area where they were born and decide to move on to bigger and better things. I'll grant that citizenship may be an antiquated notion, but then so it seems is mutuality, and usually the people who talk about voluntarism the most are the people least inclined to mutuality, generally as a way of disguising the fact that they have no loyalty to anything or anyone. NOT pointed at you, just a general observation of the human animal. Historically, there's no getting around that real true tribalistic chaos or a Supremely powerful central authority are the only result of a lack of geocentric loyalty, and that will continue to be that case until someone reaches in to our DNA and makes us all perfectly caring and loving people. In the meantime, we have a home on a street in a town, and other people who live around us, and we around them, and we deserve better than to dehumanize ourselves and each other by renouncing those bonds; those bonds are, paradoxically, all that make it possible for us as individuals to thrive, irrespective of the specific form of governance which takes the edge off the chaos.
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: socalserf on July 14, 2009, 06:46:45 am
jamielynn,

The key is voluntaryism.  Your citizenship, without an option for renunciation, is not voluntary.
Don't really know what you mean by that.

Most of your questions about voluntaryism can be found here;
http://www.voluntaryist.com/toc.php

I don't have any issues with people who want to be left alone, or who are solitary, or cussed.
Frankly, I can personally relate.

You are of the opinion that self sovereignty or anarchy is good only in abstract and can't work in the real world.
But, it has worked in the past, and does work here and now.
It works because humans are not perfect and fallible.

The least perfect system involves the most coercion and force, and the best system involves no force and is Voluntary.


Historical Examples of Anarchy without Chaos:
http://libertariannation.org/b/history.htm

Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: Jarel on July 14, 2009, 11:13:51 am
Checked out Voluntaryist; interesting stuff, most of it right up my alley. I don't disagree I just think some people take the concept too far (escapist). We will always have and require SOME system of governance if for no other reason than the logistics of a complex society. No way around it. How much power? That's up to us.
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: somedude on July 14, 2009, 02:02:19 pm
jamielynn,
I'm not sure of your definition of "escapism," but if it is avoiding reality, I'll point out minarchism is escapist uptopianism. The use of violence, and threats of violence, to finance monopoly services, that could be better provided by private enterprise on a voluntary market, is destructive to the economic progress of society. The State, no matter how limited, is anti-social. The State, no matter how limited, is criminal. (It is also utopian to believe the State can be limited.)

The only just law/principle governing human action is equal liberty. This principle excludes all government that is funded involuntarily through robbery (called "taxation'). Police, courts, and other defense services can only be justly/ethically provided on an open voluntary market. This is also the only practical means to control such services. If one is unsatisfied with the services provided they can go to a competitor, or form their own mutual association, as is the case with all other businesses.

Crime will always be with us. However, there are much better means of dealing with it than granting a monopoly on crime to the biggest band of criminals in any geographic area, in the vain hope that they will protect you from other criminals.
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: Jarel on July 15, 2009, 05:04:12 pm
I totally agree, except when it comes down to very specific services like crime control (cops) and a legal system. There I think it breaks down because there is no logistically (or ethically) possible way for honest competition to present itself, at least not that I have yet envisioned or seen. And without some sort of geodefense structure for a given area, tribalistic monopolies and the resultant tragic misappropriation of dignity will ensue. Africa is a great example, as is the history of the German empire. No, I think that the ideal is wonderful, something to work toward, but realistically I think the only model that works is a State whose dynamics most faithfully reproduce the values of equal liberty, those dynamics being the natural result of involved, active, and cognizant members.
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: socalserf on July 16, 2009, 08:10:30 am
I totally agree, except when it comes down to very specific services like crime control (cops) and a legal system. There I think it breaks down because there is no logistically (or ethically) possible way for honest competition to present itself, at least not that I have yet envisioned or seen. And without some sort of geodefense structure for a given area, tribalistic monopolies and the resultant tragic misappropriation of dignity will ensue. Africa is a great example, as is the history of the German empire. No, I think that the ideal is wonderful, something to work toward, but realistically I think the only model that works is a State whose dynamics most faithfully reproduce the values of equal liberty, those dynamics being the natural result of involved, active, and cognizant members.

Crime control is best handled privately as are courts of law.
And they were very successful in this country for the first 80 years or so.
http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm
http://www.thementalmilitia.com/forums/index.php?topic=100.0

Private courts of law have a long and honored history.
http://www.freenation.org/a/f21l1.html

Jamielynn, Anything that the government does it has usurped from the private sector.
It does these ‘services’ very poorly and at great expense, and usually make a monopoly practice of them.

More over what ever shape society takes after the end of government will be up to the people who form society. If those people want tribalism, like Somalia, or voluntary communes, like Hippy-topia, that will be their private business.

“….realistically I think the only model that works is a State whose dynamics most faithfully reproduce the values of equal liberty, those dynamics being the natural result of involved, active, and cognizant members.”

I think that you must realistically admit that every State ever tried has been an abject, unmitigated failure.
Invariably the first things to be crushed is Liberty, Rights and Dignity of the individual.
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: Jarel on July 16, 2009, 05:16:51 pm
Perfectly willing to admit that Statism has its flaws, though "abject failure" may be going a bit far, since a few examples to date have been somewhat successful (American Constitutional Republic), despite their admittedly sad flaws until the the informed membership is subverted or invaded, like the bohr system in England. My question is what kind of perpetuity can be expected from a situation where there is no common defense, no enforceable standard of legality, and law enforcement is your neighbor? Just an honest question, friend, since I have no neighbors who I would entrust with those responsibilities, and given that it's their choice to have a Somali-style tribalism, what prevents that tribalism from creating abject unmitigated failure of the human race? The great pain of humanity is and will always be to find a balance, I think, and there will always be a pendulum effect of sorts between independence and tyranny, both personal and societal. From over here, you could be talking about Thunderdome, master-serf style (hippy-topia being good for about ten minutes lifespan), and call me silly but I don't call that evolutionary, I call it a trap, because the only people who will thrive are those ALREADY in power. Again, individual sovereignty is a great ideal, and I'm all for making  progress toward it. I find it especially interesting that some of those who tout anarchism also rub the bellies of Fascist idols. Hmmm... I wonder how easily the fine points of anarchy could fit into the guiding principles of evolving a theocracy. I think for now I'll stick with the old standby of erasing the royalty and pseudo-royalty as the preferred Utopian beginnings of real human evolution. Restack the deck, so to speak, without throwing out the deck itself. Sante!
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: Klapton Isgod on July 16, 2009, 06:36:49 pm
Perfectly willing to admit that Statism has its flaws, though "abject failure" may be going a bit far, since a few examples to date have been somewhat successful (American Constitutional Republic), despite their admittedly sad flaws until the the informed membership is subverted or invaded, like the bohr system in England. My question is what kind of perpetuity can be expected from a situation where there is no common defense, no enforceable standard of legality, and law enforcement is your neighbor?

A group of people can have common defense and enforceable standards of legality without those things being monopolized by government.  You are correct that peaceful anarchism would require a radical change of thinking on the part of your neighbors.  Most of us are NOT ready to govern ourselves.  That is the mission of this community - to enlighten people about their true potential to govern themselves without coercion.

Quote
Just an honest question, friend, since I have no neighbors who I would entrust with those responsibilities, and given that it's their choice to have a Somali-style tribalism, what prevents that tribalism from creating abject unmitigated failure of the human race? The great pain of humanity is and will always be to find a balance, I think, and there will always be a pendulum effect of sorts between independence and tyranny, both personal and societal. From over here, you could be talking about Thunderdome, master-serf style (hippy-topia being good for about ten minutes lifespan), and call me silly but I don't call that evolutionary, I call it a trap, because the only people who will thrive are those ALREADY in power. Again, individual sovereignty is a great ideal, and I'm all for making  progress toward it. I find it especially interesting that some of those who tout anarchism also rub the bellies of Fascist idols. Hmmm... I wonder how easily the fine points of anarchy could fit into the guiding principles of evolving a theocracy. I think for now I'll stick with the old standby of erasing the royalty and pseudo-royalty as the preferred Utopian beginnings of real human evolution. Restack the deck, so to speak, without throwing out the deck itself. Sante!

What would be required is for everyone to agree on the definition of aggression, and everyone to be armed and prepared to defend against it.  When bullies come along and try to make themselves a "government," the whole of the people would need to rise up and eliminate them.  Once liberated, it would be the responsibility of every person to ensure that we NEVER go back to tyranny.
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on July 18, 2009, 04:20:54 pm

...
I'll grant that citizenship may be an antiquated notion, but then so it seems is mutuality, and usually the people who talk about voluntarism the most are the people least inclined to mutuality,
...


You've made this claim more than once. I'm not sure what size your sample is, but I think you are off the mark. In my personal experience, which subsumes actually knowing many people who prefer voluntary agreements between and among people rather than coercive relationships the opposite of what you claim holds true. The more the individual person leans toward preferring voluntary associations the more that same person tends toward desiring to work with others.
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: Jarel on July 19, 2009, 06:30:19 pm

...


 In my personal experience, which subsumes actually knowing many people who prefer voluntary agreements between and among people rather than coercive relationships the opposite of what you claim holds true. The more the individual person leans toward preferring voluntary associations the more that same person tends toward desiring to work with others.
Sort of apples to apples, don't you think? In the first place, of course voluntary mutuality is what binds people together: in friendships, couples and families. Has always been and will always be the case. As well it is an awesome instrument of personal philosophy, one I happen to try to live by in my interpersonal relationships in my life.  But that is not now and never will be what binds a society, except a very very small one. A society is bound by more than that and unfortunately requires a structure in place so that people won't usurp rights and dignities from others. I am NOT authoritarian in any way; just maybe more realistic on the macro scale. Of course, I'm looking at the planet as it exists today; as I said before, mutuality in anarchy is a fine idea in a very small society, i.e. after the great cleansing of 90% of the population. Hope you live through it to implement your ridiculously egocentric plan, 'cause it's fucking coming. Meanwhile on a planet of 6.7 billion, I'd rather look for solutions that don't involve murdering entire continents full of people. But as I said, on a macro scale it breaks down, and individual human survival requires the elements of the ego that make it impossible for the mutuality gene to exist on a macro scale, even in a technologically perfected society where no one lacks for anything, which is of course Utopia. And since the word Utopia is most often contextually associated with a planet almost devoid of people (after the depop) except for A-list eugenicists, my point makes itself in the reality we're living through every day. If you weren't so in love with the elements and the ego of the individual (yourselves) you might actually be able to see that.
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: somedude on July 19, 2009, 07:23:40 pm
jamielynn,
You seem to overlook the fact that we are saying people should make their own choices, while you are saying that people are too stupid to take care of such matters themselves. Which position is more in line with egocentric eugenicists?

The same argument was used by the slave owning liberals that founded this nation ,i.e., blacks were too stupid to take care of themselves and needed kindly white masters to keep them from starving.

The only person you can make reject crime completely is yourself. Once you do, you can try to convince others, from a principled position to reject it. When enough people do so, politico-economic slavery will go the way of  chattel slavery. Bad ideas eventually die when given a public airing. If they didn't the majority of people would still be burning witches on a flat earth, and bowing to the Pope as Rex Mundis.

The point is, if you condone a little bit of violent crime you condone it all. If you think a "limited" amount of robbery is okay, for certain constitutionally specified purposes, then you have no principled claim against the full treatment. IMO, you actually deserve it. In for a penny, in for a pound.

Such a social transformation probably won't happen in our lifetimes, unless economic implosion destroys the State's ability, as well as those seeking State power, to fund soldiers and police. In such a case, most likely, the markets will be regionally limited and we still won't see the true fruits of a fully formed free market in our lifetimes. However, that is not a valid reason to sanction State violence. I certainly can't understand how you think any anarchist can believe he can murder his way to a voluntary society, when by all anarchist definitions such actions would make any group doing so the State.

If you actually bothered studying the corpus of anarchist economic and philosophical works, before condemning it, you would find that any problems you can think of have already been resolved long ago. These links should be a good starting point.

Benjamin Tucker editorial addressing most of the objections to anarchism (from 125 years ago).
http://fair-use.org/benjamin-tucker/instead-of-a-book/tu-whit-tu-whoo
Chapter from Rothbard's primer "For a New Liberty," addressing the role of defense services in a free market.
http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp#p215
Excerpt from Benson's book "The Enterprise of Law: Justice Without The State."
http://mises.org/story/2542

Lastly, if people are too stupid to provide for their own defense, thus necessitating a State, why not food, clothing, shelter, entertainment, etc.?
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: Jarel on July 21, 2009, 09:37:15 am
All due respect SD, look around. As a species we prove every day that we are too stupid to be trusted to do the right thing. White black brown yellow red purple. And as long as that's the case one person will decide to rise up and usurp what is not his, or hers, and yes become the State in role if not in name, because that person will murder his way NOT to a voluntary society, but to one that bends to his greed, just as is happening now, in all the iterations that make the case for the life of mankind so far. And as I've said before I enjoy the ideals of true anarchism; I have studied some of it, and thoroughly believe in the ideals of independent sovereignty. I just don't think the human species is capable. Maybe that's my limitation, but there's SO much evidence. Help me out here.
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: socalserf on July 21, 2009, 11:53:01 am
I don't know how many times I've been through this same conversation.
It alway comes to this, "I believe in liberty and freedom, just not for you and others."

Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: jamie on July 21, 2009, 03:17:48 pm
jamielynn, 

Try  The Probability Broach by L. Neil Smith for a treatment of how a society can be arranged without the state apparatus, police, courts, prison etc.   I always thought it was very workable even after taking into account the base nature of humanity.   And anyway in that kind of society I can't see that there would much of a government created and sponsored underclass like there is now.

There is also a graphic book.
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: Jarel on July 21, 2009, 05:54:24 pm
 :mellow:Not true, SS; I believe in liberty and freedom for all, so please don't lump me in with the egoists. I just don't have any faith that the human condition will allow for it. We are inherently predatory and greedy, therefore incapable of allowing for the pure kind of benevolent mutuality that is required for such a nonsystem and that's been my point all along. Someone WILL muck up what good people try to create. As I've been saying all along, maybe that's my limitation.
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: icbkr on July 21, 2009, 06:09:31 pm
OK, so vet me on this.  I don't renounce, even though I hate the government, because...

1.) all other places suck by comparison, and I don't want to be on yet another watch list.  I know I don't have to leave, but I like having firearms.

2.) from inside the borders, hidden within the system, i can sneak my subversive dogma into the status quo and thereby cause trouble and create change I would otherwise not be able to do if I was not still part of the system.

I am an anarchist at heart, but only if all the other people on the stage are also as reasonable, intelligent, and compassionate as myself.  Faaaaaaaaaaaaat chance.

Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: socalserf on July 21, 2009, 07:47:48 pm
:mellow:Not true, SS; I believe in liberty and freedom for all, so please don't lump me in with the egoists. I just don't have any faith that the human condition will allow for it. We are inherently predatory and greedy, therefore incapable of allowing for the pure kind of benevolent mutuality that is required for such a nonsystem and that's been my point all along. Someone WILL muck up what good people try to create. As I've been saying all along, maybe that's my limitation.


You keep setting up an Anarchist Utopian strawman to knock down.
Self-government will not change human nature, what will change is the consequences for bad decisions.
Violent criminals will not long survive in a well armed and alert society.
Fraud will be severely punished by compensation for harm.
Lazy people will go hungry.
Human nature will not change, no utopia here folks, move along.
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: Jarel on July 22, 2009, 05:53:24 pm
OK, so vet me on this.  I don't renounce, even though I hate the government, because...

1.) all other places suck by comparison, and I don't want to be on yet another watch list.  I know I don't have to leave, but I like having firearms.

2.) from inside the borders, hidden within the system, i can sneak my subversive dogma into the status quo and thereby cause trouble and create change I would otherwise not be able to do if I was not still part of the system.

I am an anarchist at heart, but only if all the other people on the stage are also as reasonable, intelligent, and compassionate as myself.  Faaaaaaaaaaaaat chance.


1.) Total subversive. On every watchlist. Don't get it twisted. Don't understand the last part at all. Why are the only choices leaving OR having firearms?
2.)Naively perhaps, but yes. Though I wouldn't call it dogma to simply want a system that doesn't act as predator to the race, nor would it be unrealistic to say that humans are not inherently reasonable and compassionate. HELLOOOO, war as economics?
3.) If anarchy is freedom for all, then yes. Why is it anarchists seem to think they are the only ones who understand freedom? Or is it that all they understand is the reverence of the self?  Just an honest question, as it seems that true anarchy is a pipe dream, with idealistic dronings of free market competition in things like law enforcement, logistically impossible in a society. Again, anarchy is a great ideal, personal philosophy, but as a societal guide, it's just logistically impractical, and will lead to Thunderdome, NOTHING more. Socalserf seems to have found an idol to worship that keeps him safe and self-absorbed; sounds like a resentful little kid from here. Lazy people will always go hungry, in anarchy the consequence for bad decisions sounds like DEATH, exilement, and violent criminals will RULE in an anarchist condition. The references to "great writers" y'all have given actually make my point for me, and States will ALWAYS mow 'em like grass, because of the fragility inherent. The anarchist's lack of capacity for accurately sizing up the human species is astonishingly naive.. Anarchists here SEEM to completely discount the fact that there IS a society, all props to the individual, all worship the self. I will post no more on this subject, as I am not looking to worship totalitarians as idols. Feel free to say whatever you want about me when I'm gone; at least I'm genuinely looking out for US, not just me, me, me. I'm not an anarchist at heart; others also believe that government is thieves, Federal Reserve is criminal, but Constitutional Democracy is not a noose, is in fact the really viable method of self-governance with the smallest downside. Have a nice day.
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: socalserf on July 22, 2009, 06:21:25 pm
Socalserf seems to have found an idol to worship that keeps him safe and self-absorbed; sounds like a resentful little kid from here.

Yes, I was more than a little petulant, sorry.

I guess I should follow your lead, I will say no more either.
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: icbkr on July 22, 2009, 08:00:08 pm
Have a nice day.



 :dnftt:

Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: eric1 on September 08, 2009, 04:41:57 pm
Haven't read all the responses, but think VERY LONG AND HARD before you consider this.
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: ZooT_aLLures on September 09, 2009, 12:38:44 am
Quote
I will say no more either.

Yeah...............that's probably a pretty good idea...........
It's just not worth bothering with anymore........
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: Dirt Fisher on December 04, 2009, 06:03:43 pm
Stay tuned for the inevitable Indianbellranch discourse/sales pitch on moving to India. :laugh:

Pass.

Ditto.

Indians as a whole have to be the most aesthetically unpleasing people on the planet.  They have a greasiness and an odor about them.
Not to mention, I have NEVER seen an attractive Indian female.

The food is offensive and nearly unpalatable, the country is crowded and has very few redeeming qualities.
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: socalserf on December 04, 2009, 07:23:09 pm


Ditto.

Indians as a whole have to be the most aesthetically unpleasing people on the planet.  They have a greasiness and an odor about them.
Not to mention, I have NEVER seen an attractive Indian female.

The food is offensive and nearly unpalatable, the country is crowded and has very few redeeming qualities.

Any place with lots of poor people is going to have unsightly folks.

As for attractive Indian women, there are millions!
http://www.yousaytoo.com/beautiful-indian-women-photogallary-2/42909

I love the food too.

What I don't like is the lack of liberty, and the tradition of government uber alles.
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: Mr. Bill on December 06, 2009, 02:43:33 pm
Indians as a whole have to be the most aesthetically unpleasing people on the planet.  They have a greasiness and an odor about them.
Not to mention, I have NEVER seen an attractive Indian female.

Huh.  My brother married a woman from Bangalore.  I've hugged her numerous times, and never noticed a greasiness -- at least, nothing that came off on my hands or stained my clothes.  Her odor has been quite inoffensive.  And she looks elegant in a dressy sari.

I also met some of her family at the wedding.  Neither of her parents seemed to have either a greasiness or an odor.  And her little sister was an absolute babe!  I'm quite certain I would have noticed a greasiness or an odor, since I was quite attentive, but neither were evident.

Our family doctor is also from India.  I believe he has a slight odor of hand sanitizer, but I haven't observed a greasiness.  However, I haven't yet seen him in a sari.

I've never been to India, so I suppose it's possible that Indians in their native environment have a greasiness and an odor and a lack of physical attractiveness.  Alternatively, it may be that greasy, odorous, ugly Indians are the only ones who will come near you.

An interesting question worthy of additional research.
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: Who...me? on December 06, 2009, 03:28:05 pm
Quote
Alternatively, it may be that greasy, odorous, ugly Indians are the only ones who will come near you.

 :sign10:
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: flatbadge on July 07, 2010, 08:39:17 am
I'm PROUD to be an American. No renouncing here.  :ph34r:
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: Scarmiglione' on July 07, 2010, 09:03:24 am
I look around at many of my American "peers" and find very little to be proud of, at least on a grand scale.  But I find citizenship to be useful, at least, more useful than not.

I also distinguish a difference between "American" and "US Citizen".   Those are two different kinds of people.  One is a member of a social community, the latter a willing participant in the US Government.  I find it useful to separate the two on ideological grounds.
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: jamie on July 07, 2010, 01:13:32 pm
I'm PROUD to be an American. No renouncing here.  :ph34r:

I asked a twenty something Honduran if he was proud of Honduras, he said yes,  I asked him why? He replied, somewhat puzzled that anyone would ask, because it's my country.

They have mandatory schooling, after a fashion,  through 6th grade, which pretty much consists of learning the Honduran national anthem and how great Honduras is.

Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on July 08, 2010, 05:17:12 am
I'm PROUD to be an American. No renouncing here.  :ph34r:
...
which pretty much consists of learning the Honduran national anthem and how great Honduras is.



The 2000 year old man (Mel Brooks, being interviewed by Carl Reiner) spoke of the time when everyone lived in caves. They had their anthem:
Let 'em all go to hell
except cave seventy six
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: Bill St. Clair on July 08, 2010, 07:10:41 am
I'm proud to be an American, too. I wish there were some Americans in DC.
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: hangman on July 08, 2010, 02:06:20 pm
I don't consider myself a US citizen. I'm not subject to the jurisdiction of that tyranny. But, they foist upon us all, regardless.
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: MamaLiberty on July 08, 2010, 06:01:01 pm
To me, "citizen" means that whatever a person claims citizenship in actually owns them and has some right to demand unexamined loyalty and obedience.

I was born in the geographical area called "California" in the geographical location called the "United States of America." I now reside in Wyoming. I do not consider myself a "citizen" of any of those places.

I am a sovereign individual and own myself. I love much about the geographical California, and I love even more the area where I now live. I love liberty and justice, and consider that makes me an American.

There is a vast difference between being an American and being a "citizen" of the US of A.
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: Bennie on July 09, 2010, 12:58:12 am
Go to other countries in North, Central, or South America. The locals may ask the visitor where  they are from. People from the U.S. are likely to respond, "I'm American." The locals, though they realize that only one from the U.S. would respond that way, will often look at them like they are idiots....because they consider themselves to be Americans too.....which they are of course.

Don't attempt to renounce your U.S. citizenship unless and until you have a passport from another country.
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: jamie on December 24, 2010, 12:53:50 am
Go to other countries in North, Central, or South America. The locals may ask the visitor where  they are from. People from the U.S. are likely to respond, "I'm American." The locals, though they realize that only one from the U.S. would respond that way, will often look at them like they are idiots....because they consider themselves to be Americans too.....which they are of course.

Don't attempt to renounce your U.S. citizenship unless and until you have a passport from another country.

I don't know about that. It all depends.  I spent about 5 years in Central and South America and never heard that. But then I always said Los Estados Unidos or later I said I don't have a country.  I don't think most people really care very much about such distinctions.  There are plenty of basically stateless people in those areas. The parasites can't control everything, even though they desperately try. If you don't have anything worth stealing the parasites don't generally go after you.

And I have to say I was treated better than I probably deserved in all my Latin American experience including Mexico.
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: Bennie on December 24, 2010, 02:13:42 am
Thank you for sharing  :laugh:
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: jamie on December 24, 2010, 06:30:04 pm
Thank you for sharing  :laugh:

And thank you as well.  :laugh:
Title: Re: How To Renounce Your US Citizenship
Post by: GK on April 25, 2015, 04:54:16 pm
you only renounce if you're going to leave the US, never come back and if your going to make enough money that paying US taxes (including SS) costs you 20k per year or more. Not really likely for 99% of people.