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Arts & Liberties => Writer's Block => Topic started by: George Potter on January 09, 2007, 10:16:05 pm

Title: Outlaw Trail
Post by: George Potter on January 09, 2007, 10:16:05 pm

Why not?

Look at the projects we have going: my book, the cookbook, a proposed GN, rumblings 'bout a H'Ville anthology, Joel's stuff, Shorty's Stuff, lots and lots of in-the-works Writer's Block threads...

Profits could go to support the forum, Wolfesblog, any 'emergency fund' thing that crops up, etc.

We could run it through lulu. Pagan could be Editor-In-Chief.

Any comments or thoughts?
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 09, 2007, 10:24:22 pm
  I think this is a FANTASTIC idea. Anything to get George's works out into the public eye. As well as Claire's work not yet in print. If I thought Shorty Stuff was wanted, I'd definitely include it. (Tat's for you guys to say. Not me. I'm terribly biased, you see.) Any of the writers here in 'writer's block' are worthy of publishing, in my view.

Shorty
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Claire on January 09, 2007, 10:25:52 pm
Outlaw Press!  :laugh: I love it.

And Pagan as editor-in-chief, CL and Thunder as cover designers, coupla good proofreaders ...

Only thing is, if anyone wants to run with this idea, I'd like to propose a plan never before heard of in the publishing world. I actually think the profits (get ready ... this is a difficult concept to grasp in this industry) ... should go to the people who do the work -- whether the work be writing, copy-editing, photography, illustration, layout, etc.

Oh, okay. Set aside a little for an emergency bail fund or something. But Power to the Creatives!

And hey, Shorty, I can see some quaintly illustrated tales of Upton's Corners ...
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Claire on January 09, 2007, 10:27:38 pm
The big thing, of course, is distribution. Well, that and marketing. But especially distribution.

I know the big breakthrough is on its way that will enable independents to get their books out there better. But so far, that's still the giant hurdle.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 09, 2007, 10:34:26 pm
  And soon...... Tales of Too-Tall Dawkins!!!!    :laugh:
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Kirsten on January 09, 2007, 10:38:02 pm
*
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 09, 2007, 10:42:32 pm
If I thought Shorty Stuff was wanted, I'd definitely include it.

It is.

Thanks for that, Kirsten.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 09, 2007, 10:44:56 pm
  I have been thinking for a while about a Shorty Dawkins Songbook. Maybe this is something for the Outlaw Press. I can prepare sheet music and lyrics with a notation program I have. Ready to print.

   Shorty
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Not a TMM member on January 09, 2007, 10:47:21 pm
I actually think the profits (get ready ... this is a difficult concept to grasp in this industry) ... should go to the people who do the work -- whether the work be writing, copy-editing, photography, illustration, layout, etc.


YOU SOCIALIST!....oh wait, that's wrong.
DAMN CAPITALIST DO GOODER BLEEDING HEART..................  
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: George Potter on January 09, 2007, 10:50:16 pm
If I thought Shorty Stuff was wanted, I'd definitely include it.

It is.

Yup. :)
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: velojym on January 09, 2007, 10:58:50 pm
I agree with Claire. Once proceeds start going to the 'organization' or the collective, we've kinda screwed the pooch.
Of course, the author can *choose* to donate his or her earnings, but I'd have uses for the money if I sold any copies.
(like... that M1A I've been wanting...)
Naturally, any publisher will have to take care of their expenses as well, so the board can be included in the overhead.
Besides, it's a great place to scout new talent (or lack thereof... I can't really say I'm publishable, but I do enjoy kudos anyway).

This would be a great way to get a bunch of good short stories and poetry together in book form.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Joel on January 10, 2007, 09:31:49 am
Well, I'd certainly be in.  Though, like Claire, I'm actually hoping to supplement my income with my writing at some point, and would like - if George doesn't mind - to keep a good bit of the money my books earn.  I realize how selfish that makes me, and I'm deeply asha...wait: no I'm not.

She has already mentioned the hard part, though.  Publishing's easy; Lulu's as exclusive as a rainstorm.  It's marketing where we fall down.  Outlaw Press (love that name!) needs somebody who knows how to market.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 10, 2007, 09:37:02 am
  I, too, would like to supplement my income. I would, however, like to see a portion of the income go to helping TCF, since it is at TCF that the idea was hatched.

   Shorty
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ZooT_aLLures on January 11, 2007, 03:49:53 am
Quote
I actually think the profits (get ready ... this is a difficult concept to grasp in this industry) ... should go to the people who do the work -- whether the work be writing, copy-editing, photography, illustration, layout, etc.

I think it should all go to the "Let's get ZooT drunk" fund  :laugh:
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 11, 2007, 05:18:28 am
Geez, Gloryroad ... I just saw this thread.

“Outlaw Press” is a GREAT idea; I’d love to see it start up  – and succeed! There’s so much good talent on this forum – prose, poetry and songs, photography, video, etc – that it’s a shame to see it go to waste just for our eyes alone; not to mention being able to get the “outlaw” word out to the sheeple.

1) Uh – me as Editor-in-Chief? I’m not sure I know enough about that, I’d need some help. Page layout is my interest, what I know better, and what I wanted to concentrate on. Doesn’t mean I couldn’t – but ...

2) I’m still in the process of finding some contacts for suppliers, etc. for my own business. Will search around for Marketing sources, too.

3) If Outlaw Press got off the ground, it would be a full-time job as far as I’m concerned – and what I’d prefer to do, no matter which hat(s) I wore.  But I really wouldn’t want OP to flounder within a year, so I’d have to start up my own page layout business at that time. Are you writers committed to full-time writing? (Not as your only job, but writing when you’re not working at other jobs.)
3a) Would we have enough output to make it as a publisher? Would we be trying to recruit other writers (e.g., some that came from Loompanics) down the road? Would we be trying to obtain some of those and other books to put in our stable?

4) Will some of this literary material go into PDF for reading online? (If put online, I think it should go into PDF if we’re going to retain some control over it.)

5) I think a flat percentage ought to be taken off the top for TCF.

6) May I suggest Dare as editor/proofreader – if she’s interested?

7) May I suggest lewlew (Victory Graphics) – if she’ s interested – to print any promotional copy that OP needs; and any non-book output (brochures, pamphlets) for OP, and any pamphlets/booklets from the writers themselves? 
I think we should “keep it in the family” as much as possible; also work with as few different resources as possible, to keep it consistent and to keep it focused on the cause of freedom and outlawry.

Sorry – you asked for response and I got carried away. :-)

Comments?

Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 11, 2007, 09:21:02 am
  Pagan,
  Great to hear you are interested. I think, as you say, there is a lot of talent around here.
 
   Another thing I'm considering is audio CDs, a la Garrison Keillor, of Shorty Dawkins material, complete with New England accent.

  Shorty
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Kirsten on January 11, 2007, 11:24:23 am
*
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: PintofStout on January 11, 2007, 11:43:09 am
This sounds like a spectacular idea.  Someday I would hope to contribute material, but in the meantime, I can do half-decent editing (except on my own stuff - why is that?).  I also have next-to-no knowledge about the industry itself, but I am a fast, fast learner.  If nothing else, I'd be a good customer.

Shorty, I second the audio CD's idea.  Spending two hours a day in my car would be a fine time for a story or two.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 11, 2007, 12:32:28 pm
PintofStout:
Quote
... I can do half-decent editing (except on my own stuff - why is that?).

There's an old saying that you shouldn't edit your own stuff anyway. I guess that's why... :-)

I'd like to see (hear) Shorty's works on audio too --especially his poetry. As a poetry fan/fiend, I think ALL the poetry would be better on audio.

Who has a good reading voice here? Has anybody done reading -- for libraries, the sight-impaired, or shut-ins, e.g.?
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Dare2BFree on January 11, 2007, 01:16:13 pm
Quote
May I suggest Dare as editor/proofreader – if she’s interested?

Thanks Pagan!  I am definitely interested since this is along the lines of what I want to do as part of a home business. 

Outlaw Press sounds like an excellent idea!
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: UnReconstructed on January 11, 2007, 01:31:22 pm
I do narration/reading. Part of my regular day job........

PM me.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 11, 2007, 10:42:45 pm
Quote
May I suggest Dare as editor/proofreader – if she’s interested?

Thanks Pagan!  I am definitely interested since this is along the lines of what I want to do as part of a home business. 

Outlaw Press sounds like an excellent idea!

Cool, Dare!
Looks like we're pulling together a good group.

Shorty
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: George Potter on January 11, 2007, 11:45:25 pm

I don't care where the profits go. That was my point.

I just want my books to have the Outlaw Press logo, with stylized wolf's head and the motto "Freedom is more than a word."
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 12, 2007, 06:20:26 am
Quote
I just want my books to have the Outlaw Press logo, with stylized wolf's head and the motto "Freedom is more than a word."

Nice. I have a tentative logo on the title page, but if you'll send that along as clip art (.jpg), I can put it in and re-size it to suit.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 12, 2007, 08:25:41 am
This sounds like a spectacular idea.  Someday I would hope to contribute material, but in the meantime, I can do half-decent editing (except on my own stuff - why is that?).  I also have next-to-no knowledge about the industry itself, but I am a fast, fast learner.  If nothing else, I'd be a good customer.

Shorty, I second the audio CD's idea.  Spending two hours a day in my car would be a fine time for a story or two.

My stuff lends itself to audio very well. It's storytelling.

Shorty
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Thunder on January 12, 2007, 08:38:13 am
Unfortunately, it seems the name 'Outlaw Press' is already taken...

http://avalon.albuquerque.nm.us/resume/outlaw/index.html
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 12, 2007, 08:40:46 am
Unfortunately, it seems the name 'Outlaw Press' is already taken...

http://avalon.albuquerque.nm.us/resume/outlaw/index.html


What do you folks think of "Freedom Outlaw Press"?
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 12, 2007, 09:17:31 am
My tentative name and logo was Freedom Press.

I like Freedom Outlaw Press ... or Firefly Press ... or Forajido Press ("forajido/a" is Spanish for "outlaw".)

Added: Also like Rebel Press.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Thunder on January 12, 2007, 12:26:35 pm
Or you could try Innapinnant Press.  As in, "Why ain't you drinking to Unification?  Oh, you must be one o' dem Innapinnants.  Ya know....your coat is kinda a brown color..."


Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: PintofStout on January 12, 2007, 12:40:04 pm
This sounds like a rather decentralized idea, what with editors and graphics layout folks spread all over the place, where would the main operation be for banking/payroll, business address (for lack of tax purposes, of course), and actual production, etc.

We could always just keep things "under-the-table" and never be "official" in the eyes of our overlords.  It would be like being old-time pamphleteers!  The counter-economy in information may be beginning here.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: George Potter on January 12, 2007, 08:38:56 pm
Unfortunately, it seems the name 'Outlaw Press' is already taken...

http://avalon.albuquerque.nm.us/resume/outlaw/index.html


I don't think that matters so long as we use a different logo. If it does, NP -- we'll just be Outlaw.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 12, 2007, 10:21:35 pm
Unfortunately, it seems the name 'Outlaw Press' is already taken...

http://avalon.albuquerque.nm.us/resume/outlaw/index.html


I don't think that matters so long as we use a different logo. If it does, NP -- we'll just be Outlaw.

Or possibly 'The Outlaws"?


Added: Published by The Outlaws
Has a nice ring to it.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: lewlew on January 12, 2007, 10:53:13 pm
Please keep us in mind for graphic design and promotional offset printing.  lulu is a great POD publisher. I think you'll be very happy with the work they do.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: George Potter on January 12, 2007, 11:09:09 pm
Quote
I just want my books to have the Outlaw Press logo, with stylized wolf's head and the motto "Freedom is more than a word."

Nice. I have a tentative logo on the title page, but if you'll send that along as clip art (.jpg), I can put it in and re-size it to suit.

Heh. Sorry, but I don't actually have a logo. I just thought it seemed natural. :P
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 13, 2007, 05:12:14 am
All the wolves I can find are not satisfactory; the best stylized wolf I know is Claire's (the one she draws on her signature) but that's hers.
If we don't use a wolf, can we use an outlaw graphic?

lewlew, do you have a stylized wolf (or outlaw, for that matter) in your graphics repertoire that might be suitable?

Re: name: how about Outlaw Publishing (Co.)?
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: velojym on January 13, 2007, 08:32:50 am
How about an old-west style outlaw, black hat, boots, pistol, and all?
Or something like the Skoal Bandits thing, just a simple drawing with
a bandanna and a hat.
Or, you can change the logo on the books themselves, using the same style, but
adjusting it to fit the book's theme? (maybe not, I guess it would confuzzle some folks)
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Claire on January 13, 2007, 09:19:31 am
All the wolves I can find are not satisfactory; the best stylized wolf I know is Claire's (the one she draws on her signature) but that's hers.
If we don't use a wolf, can we use an outlaw graphic?

Well, if you want a wolf, I can draw you up a cleaner version of the wolf profile I've been using to sign my drawings. Just let me know.

You're also welcome to use that eerie-looking wolf face that appears at the top of Wolfesblog (and that used to be my avatar here before it mysteriously disappeared).
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 13, 2007, 09:24:49 am
velojym
Quote
How about an old-west style outlaw, black hat, boots, pistol, and all?

Yeah, I thought about that, and even have an old-west style bandit in my clip art which looks pretty good.

Quote
Or, you can change the logo on the books themselves, using the same style, but
adjusting it to fit the book's theme? (maybe not, I guess it would confuzzle some folks)

Well that confuzzles me, because I'm not sure how that would work. :-)  Explain please.


Added: Whoops, just saw Claire's post.

Claire, I think your signature wolf would be great, or a stylized version (not a photo) of the wolf at the top.

However, I also think an outlaw logo would fit the name of the business better if it's called Outlaw (Press/Publishing/Freedom Outlaw or whatever). But I'll leave it up to George and the others. (Besides I don't think a wolf IS an outlaw; it's just a "wild thang" doing its own thing.)
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: velojym on January 13, 2007, 11:47:00 am
I too like the wolf idea.

To explain the morphing logo, using other books as examples: Rebelfire might be a guitar, or a silhouette of the dog and his boy.
The Black Arrow might be a simple bow and arrow, and they'd all share a style, or color scheme.
Perhaps black on yellow... Don't Tread on Me. Or, the shared element could be a particular style of border around the icon.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 13, 2007, 11:53:16 am
 I like both the Wolf idea AND the Outlaw idea. The wolf symbolizes, to me, an outlaw creature.

Shorty
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Claire on January 13, 2007, 01:02:43 pm
However, I also think an outlaw logo would fit the name of the business better if it's called Outlaw (Press/Publishing/Freedom Outlaw or whatever). But I'll leave it up to George and the others. (Besides I don't think a wolf IS an outlaw; it's just a "wild thang" doing its own thing.)

Well, I will await orders then. Or lack of them. (Aren't I a good little soldier?  :rolleyes: )

But I agree with Shorty; the wolf is an outlaw creature. "A wild thang doing its own thing" is pretty much the definition of a freedom outlaw. A masked bandit logo, for instance, implies less freedom than a wolf.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: velojym on January 13, 2007, 01:06:29 pm
Pirate?  :icon_pirat:
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 13, 2007, 01:11:58 pm
I like both logos too, Shorty.

However as said before, I don't consider a wolf as an outlaw -- it just IS... itself, its own entity, with its own qualities. (Which might make it right for George, after all.) But we, as humans, have placed it in the outlaw category because we don't like the way it acts toward us, we can't control it, we don't think it gives us enough respect. (Which is odd when you think about it, because the dog evolved from the wolf, and they are, in one sense, exact opposites toward humans.)  


Thanks for the explanation, velojym. It's not a bad idea; that could work, too, to indicate a "theme" of each book.
I like the color scheme idea, in any case; we could use it with or without a logo; we could use it with ANY logo; and the black and yellow is definitely a winner.

Any other ideas from anybody?


P.S: It seems everybody is writing at the same time.

Quote
A masked bandit logo, for instance, implies less freedom than a wolf.

Yeah, I can see that. Please do draw a wolf for us, Claire.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 13, 2007, 01:18:03 pm
I like both logos too, Shorty.

However as said before, I don't consider a wolf as an outlaw -- it just IS... itself, its own entity, with its own qualities. (Which might make it right for George, after all.) But we, as humans, have placed it in the outlaw category because we don't like the way it acts toward us, we can't control it, we don't think it gives us enough respect. (Which is odd when you think about it, because the dog evolved from the wolf, and they are, in one sense, exact opposites toward humans.)  

Excellent thoughts, Pagan. We are Outlaws because we choose to be. Lone Wolves who follow a different drummer.


Quote
Thanks for the explanation, velojym. It's not a bad idea; that could work, too, to indicate a "theme" of each book.
I like the color scheme idea, in any case; we could use it with or without a logo; we could use it with ANY logo; and the black and yellow is definitely a winner.


Black and yellow definitely sounds good.

Shorty
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 13, 2007, 01:23:49 pm
If we can't use Outlaw Press, maybe Lone Wolf Press...hmm?
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: velojym on January 13, 2007, 01:30:30 pm
While I really like the wolf idea, it seems to have become the mascot of the perpetually lame
wannabe badass. Plenty of times I'll see 'lone' wolves plastered all over a beater car, driven by
some loser who'd likely fold under the slightest bit of pressure. There are some people like that
back where I grew up. They were the ones who hang out at the Waffle House, huge CB antenna
on the trunk of a Ford Maverick or wannabe-cop LTD or Caprice...
There were also a bunch of "Indian Lovers" who would move out there and try to identify themselves
with the Navajo, Hopi, Apache, and whoever else they could find out there, wearing their hair long and
in braids while the real 'indians' smirked at 'em.
Just a peeve, and no fault of the wolf at all.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Claire on January 13, 2007, 03:16:18 pm
If we can't use Outlaw Press, maybe Lone Wolf Press...hmm?

I like it, of course, for a variety of reasons.

But the main thing I think is that somebody -- Pagan, George, or Dare, perhaps, since they seem likely to be the drivers of this project -- should just make an executive decision and run with it. Input is good. But it's turning into decision-making by committee here. Which bears an uncanny resemblance to no decision-making at all.

(No offense. It's just the nature of that strange beast, the committee.)
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Claire on January 13, 2007, 03:22:46 pm
Velojym has a point about faux Indian-lovers and their fascination with romanticized wolves.

IF the decision goes to the wolf (and I don't care if it does, one way or another), ours can just be given a different dignity. Not romantic, but more symbolic. Or maybe even scruffy and outlawish, who knows?

FWIW, there's an Italian expression (whose spelling I may butcher here) "In bocca al lupo" -- "into the mouth of the wolf." It means "good luck," in the same spirit that "break a leg" means good luck to theater people. When someone wishes you "in bocca al lupo," the expected response is, "crepo!" -- drop dead. Which is an appropriate response some of us might like to make.

But I do kinda like the pirate idea, too.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: George Potter on January 13, 2007, 03:59:02 pm

Google turns up several 'Outlaw Press'-es, the most famous publishes the Tunnels & Trolls RPG line. I don't think there would be a legal impediment to using it as our name.

As to the wolfhead logo, I was thinking of something extremely simple, extremely stylized, almost Art Deco. The reason I wanted a wolf's head is as a tip-o-the-hat to Claire, since by Outlaw I mean to imply her definition.

I think that all aesthetic decisions should be made by those designing/laying-out/typesetting etc. The watchword of the whole thing should be 'Creative control to the creators.' I don't want people telling me how to write, so I don't want to tell people how to do their specialty.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 13, 2007, 04:44:32 pm
I think velojym made a good point, and I'm inclined to forget "Lone Wolf" entirely.

I agree a decision has to be made (non-collectively), but I'm hung up about that on two points.

1. My  first choice would be Outlaw Press (or Outlaw Publishing), but as Thunder says, there's already an Outlaw Press out there. Can we use that name? Or as George says, can we use it with a different logo? (I looked it up and couldn't find ANY logo.) Does any legal eagle know the answers?
1a. I'm not that concerned about which logo is used either.

2. We don't have a publisher (a person), and this is the publisher/owner's decision to make. I could go ahead and make a decision (as I'm sure any of us could), but this is why I personally hesitate to make it -- because I don't own this 'business'.

Both the Cookbook and Symbols Flow are separate projects right now. It would be nice to see them as a part of publishing business.
In the past few days, I've been tempted to 'buy it', so to speak; I would dearly love to get it going. But to do so, I'd have to go deeply in debt, and that's questionable; besides it's not a way that I can stay under the radar. If there's a way to keep it out of everybody else's hands, I would take that chance in a minute. But I would also need to know how much more mileage can be gotten out of it --- other prose/poetry books, perhaps pamphlets, booklets, a lib/gulch newsletter, etc.; in short an ongoing concern. That would require some committment from others as well -- and frankly, none of us can afford any long-range commitment due to the state of economics/politics in this country. So I am at an impasse, and willing to go along with what everybody else wants.

Claire:
Quote
IF the decision goes to the wolf (and I don't care if it does, one way or another), ours can just be given a different dignity. Not romantic, but more symbolic. Or maybe even scruffy and outlawish, who knows?

I like that idea -- scruffy AND symbolic: very suitable for an outlaw.

Quote
FWIW, there's an Italian expression (whose spelling I may butcher here) "In bocca al lupo" -- "into the mouth of the wolf." It means "good luck," in the same spirit that "break a leg" means good luck to theater people. When someone wishes you "in bocca al lupo," the expected response is, "crepo!" -- drop dead. Which is an appropriate response some of us might like to make.

So should we call it Crepo Press? :-)


Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Dare2BFree on January 13, 2007, 04:51:13 pm
I didn't like the idea of the wolf at first, but it's growing on me.  I think using it as symbolic would be very fitting.

From Wikipedia:
Quote
The Gray Wolf, being a keystone predator, is an integral component of the ecosystems to which it typically belongs. The wide range of habitats in which wolves can thrive reflects their adaptability as a species, and includes temperate forests, mountains, tundra, taiga, and grasslands. In the much of the world, with the exception of Northern regions, they are listed as endangered. They continue to be hunted in many areas of the world as perceived threats to livestock and humans, as well as for sport.
emphasis mine

Now - of course, I took some of that out of context to fit my point, but I think any of us could be considered a threat to the sheeple according to the gvmnt.  In thinking about the name, my thought is Freedom Outlaw Press.  I think it puts a definition behind the wolf symbol as well as using Outlaw in Claire's definition of the word as Gloryroad said earlier.

*edited for spelling
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 13, 2007, 04:54:26 pm
I just read your post, George, so am not so worried about the name now. I'm agreeable to the wolf head too.

So Claire: can you give us a scruffy, symbolic, simple, stylized wolf head? (All esses.)
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Claire on January 13, 2007, 05:28:07 pm
I just read your post, George, so am not so worried about the name now. I'm agreeable to the wolf head too.

So Claire: can you give us a scruffy, symbolic, simple, stylized wolf head? (All esses.)

I will give you -- in the next day or two -- two rough sketches. This discussion has implanted two concepts in my head. I'll present them both to you as soon as I've penciled them out. You can choose between them or ask me to go back to the drawing board for something different.

Either I can execute the final logo or if it seems beyond my capabilities, I'll twist somebody's arm until they cry uncle ask for a volunteer with better drafting tools or skills to polish up a logo that'll do Freedom Outlaw Press (or whatever it gets called ... er, probably not Crepo  :laugh:) proud.

Okay?

More later.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Claire on January 13, 2007, 05:31:28 pm
Oh, and since George had the concept and Pagan is the person who's been most eager to design books (and the person who outright expresses interest in "owning" this project), for the time being, as far as the logo goes, I'll take Pagan as boss and George as VP -- with input from everybody else gladly accepted.

Pagan, I know you can't "buy" Outlaw Press. But you do seem to show a ton of initiative on these book projects. Unless someone else objects, I think you'd make a fine exec.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Thunder on January 13, 2007, 05:38:01 pm
Just an idea...

(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r40/bbphotova/outlawlogo.jpg)


If you squint, it kinda looks like a cocker spaniel wearing white sunglasses and a fedora.  Probably not what you're looking for.  lol

Sorry, Claire.  I meant that with the utmost affection.  lol
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Claire on January 13, 2007, 05:52:50 pm
If you squint, it kinda looks like a cocker spaniel wearing white sunglasses and a fedora.

 :laugh: What it looks like is an apparition produced by an extremely incompetent medium!

Affection appreciated, though, Thunder. Competition in logo design appreciated, also.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Shevek on January 13, 2007, 06:32:40 pm
I am interested in this concept. I have my own books that I would like to publish. I also have some experience in editing and a lot of experience in proofreading. I also have developed a book template that I never have tried to sell or publish that could be used to massage all the books into a PDF document---something all the POD printers need to proceed. The template is flexible to allow authors to choose their own styles and currently supports four books sizes. I have used this template and PDF process in one real life situation helping another person publish a book. So I know the template and concept works. If "harassed" sufficiently by fellow TCFers, I could post a sample of this output at my web site.

However, I see some questions in this thread not being addressed. Then again, perhaps I'm just dense and am missing the big picture. ;)

What is the "legal" nature of this publishing company? Most of the people here are anarchists in spirit and practice. If this publishing company is going to be anarchist, then nobody need apply for a trademark name, DBA, or incorporate as Whatever Press. But the remainder of the world does not play by those principles and anybody who later established a statutory Whatever Press would sue and seek a cease and desist order against the name. Avoiding that potential mess means a TCF mole needs to play the legal game.

Incorporating or creating an LLC creates an artificial entity that is beholden to the statist system. One foot in and your in. Everybody then will be expected to play by the statutory rules, including the parasitical tax racket.

What about paper trails? Some people who publish through Whatever Press do not care about making a living through this conduit or even supplementing their current revenues in this manner. But seem people probably do. If the nature of the publishing company is anarchist, then I suspect nobody is concerned about paper trails. But the JBTs will demand to see paper trails to establish the illusion of tax debts, and particularly will want to see paper trails to establish the illusion of "royalties" to establish the illusion of tax debts. If all participating authors demand the revenue proceeds go toward "non-profit" activities, then the authors avoid the problem of a paper trail, but not the entity known as Whatever Press. A paper trail is necessary to show no profits, in order to show no alleged tax debt.

What about the POD company? All of the POD companies, including lulu.com, issue 1099s to create a paper trail establishing the payment of "royalties." Do these 1099s get issued against Whatever Press or against the individual authors? One way or another there will be a paper trail and the JBTs will expect their cut of the action.

Banking. Participating in the book publishing racket is all but impossible without a bank account. The moment somebody opens a bank account on behalf of Whatever Press, that person will become the focal point of the entire operation and will be held accountable by the JBTs for all paper work. There probably are a few moles here at TCF who are willing to risk that exposure, but perhaps not.

If the concept became popular, we can all be certain that the JBTs will investigate. That could and would create challenges for some people who might want to participate in this project.

Copyrights. If authors want to establish standard copyrights, they then avail themselves to the statutory concept, which automatically places them under that jurisdiction. Once that facade of jurisdiction is established, the JBTs gain control of the entire publishing process. Some sort of "common law" concept of copyright could be used to avoid some of those problems.

ISBNs and LoC numbers. How are ISBNs and Library of Congress numbers going to be handled? Major retailers will not sell books without an ISBN and librarians usually will not buy books without a LoC number. For some authors that might be a non issue, but probably not for all authors. If all books will be sold strictly through self-marketing and POD printing, the POD printer can handle the ISBN, but is that the route everybody wants to pursue?

Staff. Who is going to staff this operation? Will the staff be voluntary or paid? I'd be interested, but I am do not want to play the paper trail game to the full extent. Asking for voluntary help would be pushing the envelope. Proofreading and editing are time-intensive tasks and I think anybody in that role will want some sort of compensation or remuneration. And people who get paid likely will have a paper trails behind them, which many TCFers do not want.

I think that an attorney or paralegal who is sympathetic to anarchist thinking needs to get involved in this project. I'm not trying to throw sand in the gears, just trying to be pragmatic. :(
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 13, 2007, 06:56:19 pm


Both the Cookbook and Symbols Flow are separate projects right now. It would be nice to see them as a part of publishing business.
In the past few days, I've been tempted to 'buy it', so to speak; I would dearly love to get it going. But to do so, I'd have to go deeply in debt, and that's questionable; besides it's not a way that I can stay under the radar. If there's a way to keep it out of everybody else's hands, I would take that chance in a minute. But I would also need to know how much more mileage can be gotten out of it --- other prose/poetry books, perhaps pamphlets, booklets, a lib/gulch newsletter, etc.; in short an ongoing concern. That would require some committment from others as well -- and frankly, none of us can afford any long-range commitment due to the state of economics/politics in this country. So I am at an impasse, and willing to go along with what everybody else wants.


 In regards 'output'. What's available. I offer anything I have written, that "Outlaw" wants. I am not prolific, but I am basically steady in output. I have several ideas going, and always find new directions. I love the idea of Outlaw Press and will support it.
 
 
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: velojym on January 13, 2007, 07:03:25 pm
Ah, the scruffy wolf would completely take care of my wolf issues. The losers tend to go for the idealized
'perfect' wolf, and haven't much of a sense of humor in the matter.
Maybe even a cartoon-style character... with a fedora...
and shades.
Black Hat Wolf?
Sorry... that was lame.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 13, 2007, 07:19:26 pm
Oh, God! I go out to get something to eat, and I come back "drafted". Is this a new anarchist concept, Claire? :-) Thanks for the vote of confidence; I'll do my best.

Shevek:
Quote
All that you said...
.

This has been bothering me for some time in trying to start a page layout service. I want to advertise but as soon as I do, I put myself out there.

It's equally true, and even more so, for a publisher with contacts, employees, suppliers, agents to work with, etc. In order to do what I'd really like to do with this thing, I'd have to be a mole, a very public mole. Yet I'm at an age and a mindset that rejects all of that categorically; I do not want the bastards to get hold of ANYTHING I do.  What to do??

I thank you for laying it out in black and white, however. I'll be studying it closely, while I try to figure it out. In the meantime, we all should be trying to think around this mountain of a problem -- for these projects and for the future.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 13, 2007, 08:23:18 pm
Shevek said:
Quote
Copyrights. If authors want to establish standard copyrights, they then avail themselves to the statutory concept, which automatically places them under that jurisdiction. Once that facade of jurisdiction is established, the JBTs gain control of the entire publishing process. Some sort of "common law" concept of copyright could be used to avoid some of those problems.

I don't believe in copyrights, so, as far as I am concerned, this problem is taken care of.
(Shakespeare didn't have copyright protection.)

Shorty
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 14, 2007, 02:32:37 am
ShortyDawkins:
Quote
I don't believe in copyrights, so, as far as I am concerned, this problem is taken care of.
(Shakespeare didn't have copyright protection.)

Yeah, but Shakespeare didn't have the legal miasma that exists today. He didn't have the Internet that gives words away to the first greedy fist that grabs them. Or rhe music industry that wants complete control of every word/note they hear. Or lawyers who don't care who's right as long as they make money from the legal entanglement. (I'm not talking about Stewart the Yalie.)
You really don't want  to have to be dead for x number of years before you have the right to read, sing or act your own words.

I still haven't decided where I stand on the issue; I understand both sides. On one hand, I feel the author should be compensated for any words he can sell. On the other hand, words are out there for anyone to put together, and aren't limited to one mind.

But talent is not open to the highest bidder, it takes skill to put words together in such a way that they make sense, they are pleasing to the ear, and that others want to hear/read/sing them -- over and over. I won't listen to rap, no matter how true the words are that Eminem spouts; I will listen to a Cole Porter ballad even when I know that those words are so much sentimental hooey. The difference is how the words are put together, and the difference they make – to the mind that’s listening to them.

It’s no mere cliché that the (movie/literary/music) fan is what makes the star; that’s true enough. But it’s not the fan who makes the talent – that he can’t touch, whether the author sells or not. And that’s what has a right to be protected in some manner; the protection is his compensation for being good, or at least being uniquely himself.

I’m getting carried away – sorry. You may be right about copyrights; as I said, I still haven’t decided the issue.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 14, 2007, 07:45:48 am
  Pagan,
  I used to passionately believe in copyrights, but then I finally understood that it is merely Gov granted protection. It was the last 'old belief' I clung to before finally accepting anarchism.

  Shorty
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 14, 2007, 08:11:38 am
It may be my last "old belief" too, I don't know.

But a free society also has 'laws' to live by, and Gov doesn't have to implement them. A respect for other people's property is what sets up the rules in anarchy, and private contracting companies can handle that.

This may be a topic for another thread.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 14, 2007, 08:21:26 am

This may be a topic for another thread.

Yep. No sense cluttering up/hijacking thiis thread.

Shorty
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Lazarus Long on January 14, 2007, 09:31:25 am
If the audiobook idea takes off, I'd be happy to consult or assist on any technical issues with audio recording.

2L
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 14, 2007, 09:34:51 am
If the audiobook idea takes off, I'd be happy to consult or assist on any technical issues with audio recording.

2L

Cool. LL.
I have on my computer several old books, (in the public domain), that I think would be great for audio books. I don't have the tech expertise to put together audio books, it's great to have your availability.

Shorty
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 14, 2007, 09:58:38 am
I remember that UnReconstructed said he does narration and reading as a part of his job. Could you use his help in reading, or would you be doing it, Shorty?
(Or with several books, maybe you would need both of you? And speaking up for the distaff side, do you need a female reader too?)

BTW, what sort of works do you have?
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 14, 2007, 10:06:39 am
I remember that UnReconstructed said he does narration and reading as a part of his job. Could you use his help in reading, or would you be doing it, Shorty?
(Or with several books, maybe you would need both of you? And speaking up for the distaff side, do you need a female reader too?)

BTW, what sort of works do you have?

I'm thinking of doing the Shorty stories and Tall Tales myself, but perhaps the songs, done as poetry, might be better done by someone else. Some of the songs are from the female perspective, so they would fit a female voice.

Re: what sort of works
I have a biography of Stonewall Jackson for one. Also a book about Major-General John Sullivan.
I thought I had one about "The Log of a Cowboy" but find I don't have it all.

Shorty
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: velojym on January 14, 2007, 10:25:09 am
Is the original RL Stevenson version of The Black Arrow in the 'public domain' now?
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 14, 2007, 10:27:18 am
Is the original RL Stevenson version of The Black Arrow in the 'public domain' now?


If it is copyright before 1920, it definitely is. Others can be available after that date if the copyright wasn't renewed.

Shorty
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 14, 2007, 12:11:32 pm
There’s one set of poems I’ve always wanted to hear, by A. B. Paterson (The Man From Snowy River). I see it’s in public domain.

http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/gutbook/lookup?num=213

Would you be willing to consider them for audiobooks, Shorty?
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 14, 2007, 12:26:07 pm
 Pagan, I looked at a few of them and, yes, definitely. I like that they they tell stories. Great stuff. Does anyone want to start tackling them?

Shorty
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 14, 2007, 01:55:07 pm
Found this. It might make for some good audio books:

MYTHS AND LEGENDS OF OUR OWN LAND

By Charles M. Skinner


http://www.gutenberg.org/files/6615/6615.txt
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Claire on January 14, 2007, 02:58:00 pm
Okay, here's my first shot at wolf-head logos. Keep in mind that these are only rough sketches & let me know what you think:

http://www.clairewolfe.com/images/WolfLogoSketches011407.jpg

(Any wolves that resemble rats can be turned into something more wolfish in the final version.  :rolleyes:)
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: George Potter on January 14, 2007, 03:06:37 pm

Claire --

I like 'em all, but my two favorites are Laughing Wolf and Black Wolf, both of which I think lend themselves to logos. :) Good work!

Everybody:



I should have known this idea would grow beyond my initially very modest plan for it. :P

Originally, I was just thinking of a combined "front" for lulu publishing. No upfront costs, no contracts, etc. Just a bunch of writers from TCF sharing what amounted to an imprint.

Other folks seem to want something more elaborate. I have no problem with this, at all.

Money is the problem, though. Here is an idea to raise some:

Rather than go through lulu for selling/marketing, we just use them for production. We choose a flagship project. We labor mightily over it. We make it a limited signed and numbered edition, with a promise that it will never be reprinted. We sell it for an admittedly inflated price.

All proceeds from the flagship project go to jumpstart Outlaw Press proper.

This is not a new idea: it has been used succesfully by Donald E. Grant and Arkham House, both specialty publishers who built their names on quality over quantity.

The big decision would be choosing the flagship project. Here are a few suggestions:

Liberty's Roots: a collection of classic stories and essays celebrating freedom. All from the public domain, of course. Jefferson, Mason, Henry, Emerson, etc. Hopefully, we could dig out some obscure pieces as well. We illustrate it, write concise biographies, and introduce each story with why we think the piece is still relevant today.

An anthology of original stories, essays and poems from our writers. Claire, me, Joel, Dunedan, Lightning, PSM, Shevek, Shorty, padre, Velo, Pint, and anyone else interested. This would be cool because it would also serve as a 'meet the outlaws' sort of coming attraction.

Just suggestions, of course. Any others are welcome.


Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Claire on January 14, 2007, 03:17:31 pm
I like 'em all, but my two favorites are Laughing Wolf and Black Wolf, both of which I think lend themselves to logos. :) Good work!

Thank you, George. BTW, those two are also far and away the easiest designs to to execute.

Quote
Originally, I was just thinking of a combined "front" for lulu publishing. No upfront costs, no contracts, etc. Just a bunch of writers from TCF sharing what amounted to an imprint.

Which is still not a bad idea and worth pursuing if everything else gets too daunting.

Quote
Rather than go through lulu for selling/marketing, we just use them for production. We choose a flagship project. We labor mightily over it. We make it a limited signed and numbered edition, with a promise that it will never be reprinted. We sell it for an admittedly inflated price.

All proceeds from the flagship project go to jumpstart Outlaw Press proper.

This is a great idea. However, -- my $.02 for whatever it's worth -- I think the two books already in the works -- the cookbook and your anthology -- are better flagship projects than any you mentioned. Both these have potential to reach far beyond our audience of Usual Subjects. They're both already well underway without any question about whether they can be pulled together. And they both already have built-in buyers.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: George Potter on January 14, 2007, 03:23:40 pm

You're right about that, Claire. I was trying to be inclusive, I guess. Now that I think of it, though, it would just be working poor Pagan even harder.

I'm perfectly willing to let every penny from Symbols Flow jumpstart Outlaw Press. :)

Oh, and on another related subject, the illustrator I mentioned is quite interested in discussing a Hardyville GN with you -- and thinks The Coup would be an ideal storyline to adapt.

IM me an email addy you'd prefer to use and I'll let you two discuss it further. :)
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Shevek on January 14, 2007, 03:26:57 pm
Quote
I don't believe in copyrights, so, as far as I am concerned, this problem is taken care of.
I believe in a common law type of copyright (rights established by license and contract), but that was not my concern as I originally posted. My concern is that for those authors who still cling to the political model of copyrights and seek protections necessarily place themselves under statutory control, and hence, opens a can of worms for a project such as discussed in this thread. I suspect most people in this project want to avoid JBTs as much as possible.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 14, 2007, 03:29:59 pm
Quote
I don't believe in copyrights, so, as far as I am concerned, this problem is taken care of.
I believe in a common law type of copyright (rights established by license and contract), but that was not my concern as I originally posted. My concern is that for those authors who still cling to the political model of copyrights and seek protections necessarily place themselves under statutory control, and hence, opens a can of worms for a project such as discussed in this thread. I suspect most people in this project want to avoid JBTs as much as possible.


I was only saying it was not a problem for me. I definitely understand how some might have a problem. Didn't mean to infer otherwise. Sorry.

Shorty
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Claire on January 14, 2007, 03:30:44 pm
I'm perfectly willing to let every penny from Symbols Flow jumpstart Outlaw Press. :)

I didn't mean to take the money out of your pocket, George! Anyhow, it's not my decision to make. Couldn't you still get royalties from sales while Outlaw Press gets a share? Or could you forego receiving your share in cash and receive it instead as a share of the business?
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 14, 2007, 03:33:16 pm
 Claire: Personnaly I like the black wolf myself. Nice and simple.

Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Claire on January 14, 2007, 03:35:53 pm
Quote
I don't believe in copyrights, so, as far as I am concerned, this problem is taken care of.
I believe in a common law type of copyright (rights established by license and contract), but that was not my concern as I originally posted. My concern is that for those authors who still cling to the political model of copyrights and seek protections necessarily place themselves under statutory control, and hence, opens a can of worms for a project such as discussed in this thread. I suspect most people in this project want to avoid JBTs as much as possible.

Well, one can put a (c) symbol on a work without ever having any direct involvement with JBTs. There is no need to register a copyright. And if someone does steal from the work, there's also no need (and probably no money) to hound that person in the government's courts.

To me (believing that even in Anarchotopia creators' rights to their work would have to be recognized in some fashion), the (c) is a symbol that says, "This belongs to _____. No trespassing." No JBTs needed.

In an anthology, also, it would be possible for each work to have its own copyright or non-copyright status recognized. In fact, in anthologies compiled from previously published material, they usually have a page or two that does exactly that. Those contributors to an anthology who want no copyright, those who prefer "creative commons," and those who want the "hands off" approach could all have their choice.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Claire on January 14, 2007, 03:37:14 pm
Claire: Personnaly I like the black wolf myself. Nice and simple.

Thank you, Shorty. Everybody keeps v*ting like you and George, you'll make my work reaaaally simple.  :mellow:
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 14, 2007, 03:41:07 pm
Quote
I don't believe in copyrights, so, as far as I am concerned, this problem is taken care of.
I believe in a common law type of copyright (rights established by license and contract), but that was not my concern as I originally posted. My concern is that for those authors who still cling to the political model of copyrights and seek protections necessarily place themselves under statutory control, and hence, opens a can of worms for a project such as discussed in this thread. I suspect most people in this project want to avoid JBTs as much as possible.

Well, one can put a (c) symbol on a work without ever having any direct involvement with JBTs. There is no need to register a copyright. And if someone does steal from the work, there's also no need (and probably no money) to hound that person in the government's courts.

To me (believing that even in Anarchotopia creators' rights to their work would have to be recognized in some fashion), the (c) is a symbol that says, "This belongs to _____. No trespassing." No JBTs needed.

In an anthology, also, it would be possible for each work to have its own copyright or non-copyright status recognized. In fact, in anthologies compiled from previously published material, they usually have a page or two that does exactly that. Those contributors to an anthology who want no copyright, those who prefer "creative commons," and those who want the "hands off" approach could all have their choice.

I definitely think, as Shevek noted, that a contract type agreement, (For instance: The buyer agrees......) is the best. No need to register it with JBTs. Good points Claire on the lack of money to chase offenders, and your Anthology ideas.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Shevek on January 14, 2007, 04:27:03 pm
Quote
Couldn't you still get royalties from sales while Outlaw Press gets a share?
Just another "legal" observation. I think using the word "royalties" is dangerous. That will automatically set the JBTs sniffing around because the JBTs consider a royalty to be a taxable gain. I prefer instead to structure a contract such that a person is hired to help sell a commodity and the person merely is paid a fee for the sale. The remainder goes to the original commodity owner. A consignment contract avoids the problem of royalties. Just a thought.

Quote
Well, one can put a (c) symbol on a work without ever having any direct involvement with JBTs.
I agree. This is what I have done at my web site. I even explicitly explain how I use the copyright symbol in my Terms of Use section that I am not availing myself to any statutory concept of copyright.

Quote
To me (believing that even in Anarchotopia creators' rights to their work would have to be recognized in some fashion), the (c) is a symbol that says, "This belongs to _____. No trespassing." No JBTs needed.
Yes, this is what I meant by a "common law type of copyright (rights established by license and contract)."

Quote
I definitely think, as Shevek noted, that a contract type agreement, (For instance: The buyer agrees......) is the best. No need to register it with JBTs.
That was my purpose for raising the issue. Provide the JBTs an opening and they will enter uninvited. I merely want people to understand that and hope to avoid the problem.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: velojym on January 14, 2007, 05:47:42 pm
Claire, I think the Pirate Wolf is most certainly worth developing, with Laughing Wolf being a close second.
The ability to express a sense of humor will do a lot for image. It's easy to write off a bunch of writers as
militant nutjobs with a super-serious-badass logo, but if ya show a bit of irreverence and a sense of humor
it's much easier to swallow.
Of course, I speak only from my own perspective.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 14, 2007, 06:28:26 pm
1. Black Wolf is my vote, too. Clean, simple, symbolic.
But... can you “wolfy” it up a little more? (Not as wolfy as Outlaw Wolf) Some idjits might perceive the black wolf as a black dog. Since we aren’t calling it Wolf Press, they need to be led by the hand.

2. Gloryroad:
Quote
Originally, I was just thinking of a combined "front" for lulu publishing. No upfront costs, no contracts, etc. Just a bunch of writers from TCF sharing what amounted to an imprint.

Exactly. 
And I don't think the two ongoing projects should be disturbed.
The Cookbook was for TCF, and should remain so (as hopefully will be a second cookbook).

Symbols Flow should give something back to George for his time and talent, even though he has offered it to TCF. However it’s divided should be between him and TCF. (Besides the concept of an Outlaw Press was added on after the original projects started, and we don’t know where – or even if – it’s going at all.)

3.
Quote
An anthology of original stories, essays and poems from our writers. Claire, me, Joel, Dunedan, Lightning, PSM, Shevek, Shorty, padre, Velo, Pint, and anyone else interested. This would be cool because it would also serve as a 'meet the outlaws' sort of coming attraction.

If we go anywhere else next, this should be it (after second cookbook). I’d love to see this book done! I think all writers involved should be preparing what they want to include now – not too much from each, but representative of what they have to offer, what they want to say, showing their true outlaw personality, from a freedom POV.

4. Shevek:
Quote
I suspect most people in this project want to avoid JBTs as much as possible.

You got that right! Any way that can be done is right with me.
If any authors want to be officially copyrighted, they should establish which of their works upfront; we may have to leave that contribution out.

Claire
Quote
In an anthology, also, it would be possible for each work to have its own copyright or non-copyright status recognized. In fact, in anthologies compiled from previously published material, they usually have a page or two that does exactly that. Those contributors to an anthology who want no copyright, those who prefer "creative commons," and those who want the "hands off" approach could all have their choice.

Perfect...



Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 14, 2007, 09:37:54 pm
I have the following books in my computer. They are scanned images of old, useful books. I'm thinking they could be put on CDs and sold through Outlaw Publishing/Press. The Cost to produce would be minimal.

The American Gardener's Assistant
In Three Parts. Containing Complete Practical Directions
for the Cultivation of Vegetables, Flowers, Fruit Trees, and Grape-vines
By Thomas Bridgman    1866
Part I - 152 pages.
Part II - 211 pages.
Part III - 177 pages.

Country Life - A Handbook of Agriculture, Horticulture, & Landscape Gardening
by Robert Morris Copeland   1866
912 pages

The American Gardener - a Treatise on the Situation, Soil, and Laying out of Gardens,
on the Making and Managing of Hot-Beds and Green-Houses
and on the Propagation and Cultivation of the several sorts of Vegetables, Herbs, Fruits, and Flowers
by Willam Corbett   1854
230 pages

The National Cook Book
by Hannah M. Bouvier  - 1850
301 pages

Mrs. Goodfellow's - Cookery As It Should Be  - 1865
362 pages

Adams's New Arithmetic - In which the principles of operating by numbers are analytically explained and synthetically applied. Illustrated by copious examples.
By Daniel Adams, M. D.   1848
306 pages

Adams's Mensuration. - Mensuration, Mechanical Powers, and Machinery
1850
128 pages

Shorty

Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 15, 2007, 06:46:03 am
This is off-track, but...

Claire, would you consider auctioning off a melange-type "portrait" of the wolf heads (for TCF, Celata, or whatever benefit you want)? I love them all   -- esp.  Outlaw Wolf and Pirate Wolf --  and think they'd make a great picture for a den or family room. (Or even the bathroom, if somebody wouldn't feel  vulnerable with wolves looking at them!) 

Just a thought.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Claire on January 15, 2007, 09:24:32 am
Pagan,

I will gladly "wolf up" the black wolf version for your inspection. Will do that in the next couple of days.

As to the drawing-for-auction idea, thank you for thinking of it, but not now. The roughs aren't good enough and I don't have time or energy at the moment to do up better versions of all of them.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 15, 2007, 01:29:37 pm
Understood.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: PintofStout on January 16, 2007, 12:23:51 pm
In reply to the concept of a very public mole to front something that may be required for wide distribution, which is what we want, right?, I have little to lose from such actions.  I'm already in the system with little prospect for getting out, and would love to see this take off.  My wife knows a bit about the banking industry (the up front stuff anyway) and we have a good relationship with an investment adviser who, as far as I can tell, holds no affinity to the state (though not specifically against it, AFAIK).  He briefly explained the benefits and ease of establishing "legal" status for business to me before.

Perhaps a way to keep some of our ghosts under the radar could involve publishing stuff out of the public domain (can the publisher establish a copyright to that?) so no "royalties" have to be paid out, and then privately transfer any money that may need transfered.  Taxes may have to be paid by the publisher on the profit, but it keeps the authors out of the system.  That is as anarchic as I can imagine without being simply small-time pamphleteers.

I would need plenty of helpful advice about being a full-time mole, though.  I wonder where I could get that?  :ph34r:
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: PintofStout on January 16, 2007, 12:29:37 pm
Also as far as continuing business is concerned, I had the idea of continuing my "Early and Often" (http://pintofstout.wordpress.com/2006/10/31/early-and-often/) campaign for not voting in a t-shirt, bumper sticker, etc. market to make an honest effort to make people think about not voting and why.  There's no reason why a publishing company couldn't put this stuff out and make a profit at it.

In response to the Anthology business, I have no material that would fit the bill except maybe a few works I hardly consider fit to publish, but I would definitely be interested in writing up little bios for (non-TCF) authors whose work we feature.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Shevek on January 16, 2007, 04:28:14 pm
Quote
Perhaps a way to keep some of our ghosts under the radar could involve publishing stuff out of the public domain (can the publisher establish a copyright to that?) so no "royalties" have to be paid out, and then privately transfer any money that may need transferred. Taxes may have to be paid by the publisher on the profit, but it keeps the authors out of the system. That is as anarchic as I can imagine without being simply small-time pamphleteers.
Up above I mentioned that a consignment model would be better than a royalties model. Paying royalties would require a 1099 paper trail. Acting as a broker when selling on consignment would not. Simply structure contracts such that the publisher receives a fee for helping to sell a book. To remain "legal" the publisher would have to report those revenue streams and possibly pay a tax. But the publisher could avoid taxes simply through the political art of charitable donations.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Lightning on January 16, 2007, 09:35:34 pm
An anthology of original stories, essays and poems from our writers. Claire, me, Joel, Dunedan, Lightning, PSM, Shevek, Shorty, padre, Velo, Pint, and anyone else interested. This would be cool because it would also serve as a 'meet the outlaws' sort of coming attraction.

I've been quietly following this discussion and am honored to be included.  Count on me for whatever I can provide - writing and other efforts too.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 16, 2007, 09:48:19 pm
An anthology of original stories, essays and poems from our writers. Claire, me, Joel, Dunedan, Lightning, PSM, Shevek, Shorty, padre, Velo, Pint, and anyone else interested. This would be cool because it would also serve as a 'meet the outlaws' sort of coming attraction.

I've been quietly following this discussion and am honored to be included.  Count on me for whatever I can provide - writing and other efforts too.

Looks like we got ourselves a convoy.  :laugh: Welcome aboard Lightning.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: George Potter on January 16, 2007, 09:54:39 pm
An anthology of original stories, essays and poems from our writers. Claire, me, Joel, Dunedan, Lightning, PSM, Shevek, Shorty, padre, Velo, Pint, and anyone else interested. This would be cool because it would also serve as a 'meet the outlaws' sort of coming attraction.

I've been quietly following this discussion and am honored to be included.  Count on me for whatever I can provide - writing and other efforts too.

I think, eventually, just about every member of TCF could be involved in some way -- not just the 'writers'. What about something like The Gulcher's Bible or Agitatin' Made Easy or Homeschooling: Practical Aspects.?

In many ways, fiction would probably be just a segment of Outlaw Press. And not necessarily the most important part.

When The S**t Hits The Fan: Five Plans For The Post Apocalypse, Waco-Proofing Your Home For Under 10 Grand...the possibilities are endless.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 16, 2007, 10:06:17 pm
An anthology of original stories, essays and poems from our writers. Claire, me, Joel, Dunedan, Lightning, PSM, Shevek, Shorty, padre, Velo, Pint, and anyone else interested. This would be cool because it would also serve as a 'meet the outlaws' sort of coming attraction.

I've been quietly following this discussion and am honored to be included.  Count on me for whatever I can provide - writing and other efforts too.

I think, eventually, just about every member of TCF could be involved in some way -- not just the 'writers'. What about something like The Gulcher's Bible or Agitatin' Made Easy or Homeschooling: Practical Aspects.?

In many ways, fiction would probably be just a segment of Outlaw Press. And not necessarily the most important part.

When The S**t Hits The Fan: Five Plans For The Post Apocalypse, Waco-Proofing Your Home For Under 10 Grand...the possibilities are endless.


I agree, George. The possibilities are endless.

Shorty
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: padre29 on January 16, 2007, 10:13:41 pm
An anthology of original stories, essays and poems from our writers. Claire, me, Joel, Dunedan, Lightning, PSM, Shevek, Shorty, padre, Velo, Pint, and anyone else interested. This would be cool because it would also serve as a 'meet the outlaws' sort of coming attraction.

I've been quietly following this discussion and am honored to be included.  Count on me for whatever I can provide - writing and other efforts too.

I think, eventually, just about every member of TCF could be involved in some way -- not just the 'writers'. What about something like The Gulcher's Bible or Agitatin' Made Easy or Homeschooling: Practical Aspects.?

In many ways, fiction would probably be just a segment of Outlaw Press. And not necessarily the most important part.

When The S**t Hits The Fan: Five Plans For The Post Apocalypse, Waco-Proofing Your Home For Under 10 Grand...the possibilities are endless.


I've sort of avoided this thread because I don't consider my vain scribbles "writing" more "banging away at that keyboard" so I was also glad to read my name in the list.

Anywho, if practical books were written, we do have a member of the forum who could help with the marketing on Backwoods Home web page.....

If outlaw press is taken, how about Desperado press? But that might clash with the wolf's head logo.

It has been on my mind that since Loompanics shut their doors, there is a niche to be filled for good books on odd ball subjects especially new material on things like computer security, primitive weapons, food storage, growing crops for The end of world, how to save a buck (but still buy the book..) or how to find a like minded person to have a relationship with (freedom oriented dating INOW)

Heck I stopped by Books-a-Million to check out their Live CD "help"books and they wanted 30.00 for the thing (Live CD included)

And I also think that there is a need for good solid anarchist/freedom fiction, with practical tips included in the story.
There is a short list of titles like that available.

I'll be quite now....
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 16, 2007, 10:18:44 pm
Why be quiet, padre? Good ideas, there.
Other ideas. Alternative energy. Raising different animals in a gulch. Herbs and herbal medicine. Twinkies. (The Twinkie thread has some great humor in it. Add a few illustrations..... )

Shorty
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: padre29 on January 16, 2007, 10:30:05 pm
Why be quiet, padre? Good ideas, there.
Other ideas. Alternative energy. Raising different animals in a gulch. Herbs and herbal medicine. Twinkies. (The Twinkie thread has some great humor in it. Add a few illustrations..... )

Shorty

Since I was invited....:)

Marketing in the book industry is a strange beast, the publisher basically takes the lions share of the profits, but they also have the distribution system.

It would seem to me that we do have a small catalog of sellable work all over the forum, from Twinkies (I can see the title now "This is a book about nothing..."

It would seem to me that the cookbook is a decent idea, there is tons of other "good" writing on the forum as well, I just do not have a feel for what would sell and what wouldn't, that would be up to the editorial staff (power trip..LOL) to decide. And that is just what is organically available on the forum, not what might be purpose written.

I will say this, the copyright for the banned tome "Hitman, A technical Guide for independent contractors" has been abandoned as part of the lawsuit settlement that Paladin agreed to, that would make a great "screw you" as an audio book, the book itself when you can find goes for 35-50 bucks, what would an audio version go for?

Hmmm....that might be a little "Outlawish" though...:)

Desperado Press has been taken How about Sgian Dubh? LOL

Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: padre29 on January 16, 2007, 10:59:29 pm


Check out the link for the prices for "Hitman" on Amazon

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0873642767/ref=dp_olp_1/102-3797001-0072953

The reviews page is interesting as well

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0873642767/ref=cm_cr_dp_pt/102-3797001-0072953?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books

Ahh well, it's a thought..
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 17, 2007, 07:14:50 am
Lightning:
Quote
I've been quietly following this discussion and am honored to be included.  Count on me for whatever I can provide - writing and other efforts too.

Thanks, Lightning. I’ve been thinking hard about you.


GP:
Quote
I think, eventually, just about every member of TCF could be involved in some way -- not just the 'writers'. What about something like The Gulcher's Bible or Agitatin' Made Easy or Homeschooling: Practical Aspects.?

In many ways, fiction would probably be just a segment of Outlaw Press. And not necessarily the most important part.

When The S**t Hits The Fan: Five Plans For The Post Apocalypse, Waco-Proofing Your Home For Under 10 Grand...the possibilities are endless.

How about Agitatin’ Made Effective? That might be more...effective. 

I disagree that fiction is.... “not necessarily the most important part”.
From a sales POV, fiction will sell better than non-fiction; always has, always will. Especially when times get rough, people want to pull in their heads and get away from reality. It’s not what you or I would DO, but...

When it comes to non-fiction, selling to the public (and I assume that’s what we’re talking about here, not just selling to ourselves), we should be looking for trends and thinking about what is pertinent.

E.g. the Home Schooling/Unschooling idea is definitely in right now. People are, and rightly so, concerned about their kids’ education, from pre-kindergarten up to college level. Sheeple are starting to realize that politics is coming into their homes – through political correctness, bad laws and over-reaction to them, and inefficiency – and they don’t like it.

But we have to know how to best incorporate our knowledge. Using education again as an example, our opinions on this forum are not important without concrete background, examples, info sources, etc. to back it up. It would require a book in order to sell. Who here has the time or inclination to research a book on education? And who here feels he can compete with John Taylor Gatto writing on education?
I’m not saying we can’t – only that we have to understand what we’ve got, how much time and effort we’re willing to put into it, and determine the proper format before it can sell.
~
I personally would like to see a good, honest, down-to-earth, round-table discussion (a literal discussion per audio, or a factual summary in book/booklet form) on guns: 2nd amendment laid out beside the Brady law and the history of victim disarmament; personal gun choices a la MisFitz; why firearms are necessary for self-defense, hunting, survival; why self-defense, hunting and survival will always be important to people; in short, much of the information and recommendations given in the Gun topics.
But would it sell? I’m not sure at this point. It might depend on how it was written: objectively/humorously interesting or merely pro-gun passion and rhetoric.
~
padre29
Quote
Marketing in the book industry is a strange beast, the publisher basically takes the lions share of the profits, but they also have the distribution system.

It would seem to me that we do have a small catalog of sellable work all over the forum, from Twinkies (I can see the title now "This is a book about nothing..."

It would seem to me that the cookbook is a decent idea, there is tons of other "good" writing on the forum as well, I just do not have a feel for what would sell and what wouldn't, that would be up to the editorial staff (power trip..LOL) to decide. And that is just what is organically available on the forum, not what might be purpose written.

If we have enough interest from TCF members to write from this forum, I think we should concentrate on us. I’ve thought about taking up the slack from Loompanics, etc. but now I believe we should stick with what we know, and what we do best – which by and large is thinking common-sensically about issues from a freedom POV. After all it’s never been done before in our time! Maybe it would be so novel an idea that a few sheeple would wake up. If books are not forthcoming from these topics or from our own knowledge, perhaps “pamphleteering” IS the best way to go. 

Quote
Desperado Press has been taken How about Sgian Dubh? LOL

Actually I kinda like Sgian Dubh (“Black Knife”).  

I’ve checked the name “Outlaw Press” online, and it seems to be OK. There is “The Outlaw Press”, and “Outlaw Press, Inc.”, but I can find no “Outlaw Press” , especially as we’ll be using it under the radar so to speak. (How “under” can that be when we’re writing about it online?!)
~
Twinkies?

When we get really desperate, we’ll write a book about Twinkies... “101 Ways to Eat a Twinkie”; much more comprehensive than the New York Times bestseller, “59 Ways to Eat an Oreo Cookie.” 
~
If anyone is interested in a particular topic -- Guns, Health, Gardening, Computer Security, Photography, Gulching, MAG (Mole, Agitator, Ghost) etc., etc. -- enough to track down some of the threads and extract pertinent information from them for publication -- PLEASE do so. At this point I'm not sure what, if anything, can be accomplished beyond the two books we're committed to.


   
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: B.W. on January 17, 2007, 11:27:49 am
As an outlaw wannabe, I just thought I'd throw in that I would/will contribute to the Outlaw Press in that important role, that of customer, and would aspire to one day have that imprint on my own humble works.

A very cool idea!
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Kirsten on January 17, 2007, 11:42:11 am
*
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: B.W. on January 17, 2007, 11:49:30 am
I would be very interested in audio CDs.  I love having a story told/read to me.

Not that this is any of my business, but speaking of attracting other talent, you all might want to check out B.W. Richardson's The Imaginary Age podcast and a story by Warren Bluhm called Wildflower Man over at Uncle Warren's Attic (http://www.unclewarrensattic.com).  The stories will appear before the Uncle Warren's Attic episodes, so you'll have to dig a little into the archives.  The next installment of the Imaginary Age series is allegedly in progress and nearing release.

Holy smokes! I read the first page and jumped to the end. I didn't realize I was mentioned in this company. Where's a humble blushing smiley when I need one? Thanks, Kirsten. Shucks folks, I'm speechless.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: padre29 on January 17, 2007, 12:12:32 pm
Quote
If anyone is interested in a particular topic -- Guns, Health, Gardening, Computer Security, Photography, Gulching, MAG (Mole, Agitator, Ghost) etc., etc. -- enough to track down some of the threads and extract pertinent information from them for publication -- PLEASE do so. At this point I'm not sure what, if anything, can be accomplished beyond the two books we're committed to.

How should the extracted material be organized? A compendium of various threads from various subjects? Or interesting bits from any thread?

The thing about fiction is that until the writer or character becomes recognized, it is hard to draw attention to the publication. Whereas "How to" type publications speak for themselves "Agitatin' Against the DARE Nazi's" or "The Spatula as for cooking, fire starting and self defense"

And on the publication end, should potential works be formatted in a certain way?

For instance a "How To" should generally be around "XXX" pages?

I am thinking about the type of format the Desert Press uses, under 80 pages generally, soft cover, the publications cost under 13 dollars or so for the "How to " type books.

I would like to see a Linux book that takes three seemingly "obsolete" computers brought back to usefulness as examples of "How to utilize Linux for fun and profit"

Heck, to finish the book you could auction them off on Ebay and see if the author can turn a profit as well.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: velojym on January 17, 2007, 01:35:12 pm
Since I have a bunch of ideas for Up and Away, I could easily make 'episodes' out of it.
This way, if someone thought it was actually worth publishing, the 'shorts' could sort of
stand alone, like a Firefly episode...
I think this would make it easier for me to write anyway, as it's hard for a disorganized person like
myself to keep that herd of cats together for an entire novel.


Catherder Press?
Wolf with a cowboy hat and a lariat...
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 17, 2007, 02:50:30 pm
padre29
Quote
How should the extracted material be organized? A compendium of various threads from various subjects? Or interesting bits from any thread?

I was thinking of pertinent information that might make a book from any of the particular threads of a given topic, separating real info from commentary, jokes, sarcastic remarks, etc.

But you’ve made a good point. Several subjects can be obtained from one thread; likewise several threads can be put together for one subject. In true anarchy fashion, I would say, “take what interests you and make something of it!”

I don’t think it matters how long it is, or how short. At some point in the future we (that ‘editorial board’) might debate it and/or wish to incorporate it into something else. OTOH, if you can write an entire book, or booklet, or even an interesting pamphlet, and submit it whole, it would have to be recognized for its own value and, bar any editing, be accepted.

There’s not only writing talent here, there’s knowledge and avocations in every field. I don’t know (and I’m sure noone else knows) what backgrounds everyone comes from. If one has an interest and can draw information together that would make a good publishing sale, we might be able to find someone willing to ‘ghost-write’ it.

Because I don’t know where Outlaw Press is going, I’m not so worried about where it’s going to end up. My interest is solely in putting good freedom writers into the ‘mainstream’ consciousness of America. That will result in two things:

1) Letting the world know about the good writers we have, and allowing them to become as successful as possible; and
2) Letting the world become aware of freedom ideas, through fiction OR non-fiction, that can run a better world.

Quote
I would like to see a Linux book that takes three seemingly "obsolete" computers brought back to usefulness as examples of "How to utilize Linux for fun and profit"

OK, take Linux. We know MicroSh*t is... just that. If you can put together a piece that tells the readership why and how they should be using Linux for fun and profit, why they shouldn’t be using MS (or even Apple) – do it. If someone else puts together a piece that tells the readership specifically how to economically incorporate Linux into the business world (and how to get the business world off of MS dependency!), we might put the two pieces together with separate author credit, or publish the two separately but simultaneously (depending on their length). One might be a book, the other might be a pamphlet. I don’t know. I don’t care.

Frankly I would hope that this idea of an Outlaw Press might inspire you (everyone, i.e.) to reach beyond what they’ve commented on here in TCF and let their imaginations soar with what they really want to say about any given subject. Using the info here at TCF or their own research, they could get the freedom word out.

If this sounds grandiose, so be it. But I do believe “the pen is mightier than the sword.”
~
You mentioned Desert Press. I only found one (in Green Valley, Arizona)  but I don’t think that’s what you meant. I found Desert Rose, and Desert Sky, and Desert something else, but – where is the one you mentioned? Just interested.




Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 17, 2007, 02:56:12 pm
velojym:
Quote
Since I have a bunch of ideas for Up and Away, I could easily make 'episodes' out of it.
This way, if someone thought it was actually worth publishing, the 'shorts' could sort of
stand alone, like a Firefly episode...

Go for it. I'd very much like to read them. I think they could find a place. (Some day I'd like you to teach me to fly, too. Have always wanted to learn to pilot a small plane.)
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: padre29 on January 17, 2007, 03:12:45 pm
Quote
You mentioned Desert Press. I only found one (in Green Valley, Arizona)  but I don’t think that’s what you meant. I found Desert Rose, and Desert Sky, and Desert something else, but – where is the one you mentioned? Just interested.

I wrote from memory, it was supposed to be Desert Publications.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 18, 2007, 07:58:59 am
Recuiting
   
I have suggestions, but this is dependent on Interest, Time Available, and George’s Input:

That “Editorial Board”: Thunder, Lightning and Claire. I know they’re busy but if one is unavailable, the other two plus George and/or myself would be on call. (I think three, an uneven number, is necessary in case there is a “vote”. :-)
They would determine what is ultimately saleable and acceptable for an outlaw’s purposes, or for Outlaw Press’s purposes.

Marketing: Kirsten – and whomever else she wants to work with her. She knows how to find resources and make contacts. (I have some names of POD marketers; I’m sure lulu has some that they work with. Also lewlew stated she could do graphic arts and promotional materials; she probably knows some marketing sources that might help.)

Copywriter: We need a copywriter, one who writes copy for front and back covers. It’s directly related to marketing/advertising, words that can sell the book. Ordinarily this is a highly specialized job; unless someone actually does this for a living now, it would have to be taken up by others.

Distribution: I think the publisher usually does this, doesn’t it? lulu can give suggestions here.
We will all be distributors for awhile for Cookbook and Symbols Flow, buying what we/friends/family want and getting the books to them. In the meantime, we can make contact with local bookstores, drug stores and gift shops (not sure that franchises will be interested, but local businesses might be).

Advertising: See Distribution above; we’ll all be advertising for awhile. 

Another idea: If by chance we had extra books, there might a business open for a Wholesaler: “A wholesaler is a book business that warehouses books and has them available when bookstores call to order them. [Added: Or when we order them, one or more books at a time.] Wholesalers are passive; they wait for the phone to ring.” (taken from The Complete Idiot’s Guide to Self-Publishing.)
IF there were extra books, and IF a trusty someone had the space and was willing to use it, and IF that person was willing to be hassled by UPS, USPS, etc. to mail out books – what do you think about allowing that someone to pick up some income (either all of it, or a percentage returned to TCF or the Emergency Fund)?


These are some ideas for now. If Outlaw Press gets off the ground later, we might need either what is called a “book doctor” or  “developmental editor” (or probably both-in-one). We don’t need those now for the Cookbook or for Symbols Flow.

A Book Doctor is “a special kind of writer, the kind that can come in and work over someone else’s material to improve it without losing the real author’s voice. A book doctor is different from a developmental editor.... A Developmental Editor suggests ways in which to improve your book, and then you do the writing yourself. A book doctor actually sits at the computer and personally works over your manuscript.” (Same source as above.)

Comments pro or con? Suggestions for other recruits? Suggestions for other current needs?


Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Kirsten on January 18, 2007, 08:09:24 am
*
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 18, 2007, 11:11:33 am
Quote
Marketing: Kirsten

While I am flattered that you would think of me and think it is very nice of you to include me, I'm gonna say thank you and back slowly away while making no sudden movements.  Those are two words that really should never appear next to each other again.

That's cool, Kirsten. I wasn't sure if you would/could.

Do you have any suggestions/ideas for or about this project? Haven't heard much from you, one way or the other.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 18, 2007, 12:01:06 pm
To everyone: This has been on my mind, especially in the past two days; and now is a good time to bring it up before we go further.

Do you really believe Outlaw Press will work? 

I understand George's and other writers' enthusiasm for Outlaw Press; it will give them a platform to write – and I'd like them to have that.
And I know my motivation is ideological: I want to see freedom’s voice out there – and I feel sure the desire of most of the writers  is the same. (If Outlaw Press doesn't take off, I would simply advertise my page layout business, and put a percentage toward TCF.)

But nobody (except Shevek from a legal POV) has really given any strong realistic or negative response to this project; I think it's time we had some. Just because there’s enthusiasm doesn't mean this will work.

Two books are in the works, Cookbook and Symbols Flow; a possible second cookbook will go forward if/when we get enough material for it. That’s a given.
I personally would like to see at least two other books published: 1) An anthology of freedom writers; and 2) Walt's Gulch, by Joel Simon. Depending on how the first books sell, they may make it.

Beyond that, I have NO goals for Outlaw Press right now. What are your goals for it?
Apart from talking about what could be done if so-and-so does such-and-such, is anyone prepared to go the distance – without knowing what that distance is? 

Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Kirsten on January 18, 2007, 12:35:59 pm
*
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 18, 2007, 04:37:16 pm
Kirsten:
Quote
I plan to be very vocal about things I want to buy from you, in what formats I'm interested in purchasing them, and sharing any ideas (which you are free to use or reject as you all see fit with no hurt feelings on my part) I may have that would help get you guys started selling me things or keep on selling me things.

Plan to be? Please let us know NOW, so we know what direction to go.
E.g. I can see Shorty getting his audiobooks in order while the printed books are being put together.

If it comes under the heading of a "Press", we might be able to take it on.

Quote
My biggest worry for this project would be if you all didn't spell out the terms in writing somewhere before diving in.  Who gets paid what and how, who is responsible for what, what's the deal with copyright, etc...  That's the area where I see the most vulnerability- well-meaning people potentially getting their signals crossed and things going south.  The best way I can think of to avoid this is to have everything spelled out in as much detail as possible.  I would really hate for people to have some honest misunderstanding over terms and go away hurt or angry.

This worries me too. Short of seeing a lawyer, I don't know how to approach it.
A Contract can be drawn up between Outlaw Press and individuals, that's no problem --  but without a true publishing 'company', who is responsible? And with a true company, it comes  into the public awareness.
My problem is there is no libertarian, or even decent, lawyer around my area I can talk to.


Got to go to work. Will get back here sometime tomorrow.
In the meantime, throw out ideas, everyone. What would you like to see/hear/buy that Outlaw can turn out?


BTW, this is offbeat and silly, and if everyone yells, "Boooo", I'll understand; but do we have to call it "Press"?
Why not Outlaw Trail -- with the wolf's head above it, and "Freedom is not just a word" below it, all linked as one logo?
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: padre29 on January 18, 2007, 05:05:11 pm
Quote
But nobody (except Shevek from a legal POV) has really given any strong realistic or negative response to this project; I think it's time we had some. Just because there’s enthusiasm doesn't mean this will work.

A compilation to try and support Outlaw Press sounds fine, what if Outlaw offered a online catalog of work, each author offering their own project for sale, with Outlaw maintaining the overall structure?

INOW, Author offers book description, along with any cover art and story line, up for sale on an Outlaw Press operation?

Overhead would be low, and snippets could be offered down in Writer's Block of what the book is like?

The catalog of work could be "Outlaw Press's" offer, but instead of a group deciding what was and wasn't published, the individual author could just advertise on Outlaw and take advantage of the services they would offer

Proof Reading etc.

Now "what If?" a titel sold? What would be the best place to have it printed? Who would take the order?

Outlaw Press could just use Lulu to print the books as they are ordered but that might add additional overhead so who knows.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Claire on January 18, 2007, 05:19:27 pm
BTW, this is offbeat and silly, and if everyone yells, "Boooo", I'll understand; but do we have to call it "Press"?
Why not Outlaw Trail -- with the wolf's head above it, and "Freedom is not just a word" below it, all linked as one logo?

Yeah! I like that!!!!!
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 18, 2007, 11:14:39 pm
Pagan, I like it, too. It has a certain ........ well, ......... descriptive pinache. (I thought I'd never, ever use that word.)

Shorty
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 19, 2007, 07:33:51 am
Quote
But nobody (except Shevek from a legal POV) has really given any strong realistic or negative response to this project; I think it's time we had some. Just because there’s enthusiasm doesn't mean this will work.

A compilation to try and support Outlaw Press sounds fine, what if Outlaw offered a online catalog of work, each author offering their own project for sale, with Outlaw maintaining the overall structure?

INOW, Author offers book description, along with any cover art and story line, up for sale on an Outlaw Press operation?

Overhead would be low, and snippets could be offered down in Writer's Block of what the book is like?

The catalog of work could be "Outlaw Press's" offer, but instead of a group deciding what was and wasn't published, the individual author could just advertise on Outlaw and take advantage of the services they would offer

Proof Reading etc.

Now "what If?" a titel sold? What would be the best place to have it printed? Who would take the order?

Outlaw Press could just use Lulu to print the books as they are ordered but that might add additional overhead so who knows.

padre makes some good points here. Outlaw Trail could prepare the book for publication, doing cover design, layout, etc. The book then printed by lulu. Orders can be placed from a central website, redirected to, and delivered by lulu.

I don't think we need a 'fancy' contract, merely an agreement stating what percentage of moneys over actual printing costs go to whom. i. e. (Example only) 20% to author(s), 20% to layout, 20% to design, 20% to marketing, 20% to Outlaw Trail. There can be different agreements for different types of books.

Shorty
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Claire on January 19, 2007, 09:29:53 am
That “Editorial Board”: Thunder, Lightning and Claire.

Pagan, I will be glad to serve in this capacity. Gloryroad and John DeWitt would also be good possibilities.

Quote
Copywriter: We need a copywriter, one who writes copy for front and back covers.

I've done things like this before and would be glad to do it gratis on the first book or two, until someone else comes along to take the job.

Quote
Distribution: I think the publisher usually does this, doesn’t it?

The publisher usually contracts this out to one of four national or several regional distributors. And I can sadly tell you not one of 'em is interested in books from super-small presses. Anyhow, the current distribution system is broken, big time, and it will soon be blown away. In the meantime, I still see marketing and distribution as the giant pink elephants standing in the living room.

Quote
A Book Doctor is “a special kind of writer, the kind that can come in and work over someone else’s material to improve it without losing the real author’s voice.

I'm capable of book doctoring and have even considered supplementing my income by setting up in that business. Unlike the other two responsibilities above, however, I would do this only on a fee-for-service arrangement. It's too gritty and time-consuming a job to be done gratis or for a percentage of what are likely to be small sales. Problem is, real book doctoring is an expensive proposition, and outside of the world of celebrity writers and such, those who most need it can't afford it. And other than for celebrity writers, the publisher has no motive to fund "doctoring," since an unknown who can't already write well probably won't get the publisher's attention in the first place.

Anyhow, Pagan, I'm extremely impressed at the way you're running with this project, the way you're making decisions, and how well you're educating yourself as you go. Kudos.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Thunder on January 19, 2007, 12:22:40 pm
That “Editorial Board”: Thunder, Lightning and Claire.

I thank you for the support.  However, I'm not sure what I could do. Claire and Lightning, yes.  They both rite gud.  Me?  Not so much.


But, I'll do my best.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 19, 2007, 08:56:54 pm
Claire:
Quote
Pagan, I will be glad to serve in this capacity [editorial board]. Gloryroad and John DeWitt would also be good possibilities.

Thank you. I wasn’t sure if you would be willing to give up your time.

John would be a great addition. I would love his input.

To be honest, I’m being a little selfish where George is concerned. He likes to write, and it’s what he does best; so I’m trying to keep him free from too much distraction so he WILL write.
As VP, he has a certain degree of veto power, and can express his opinion any time. But he has also said he’s leaving the “creative process” to others (as if writing isn’t creative!!), so I’m taking advantage of that comment to allow him time to write.
 
(This doesn’t mean that you, Claire, don’t also need freedom from distraction and time to write. But we’ve been through that conversation. :-) )

Quote
I've done things like this [copywriter] before and would be glad to do it gratis on the first book or two, until someone else comes along to take the job.

Thank you for the offer. I think Thunder, Dare, and/or lewlew are handling the covers for the cookbook, and George and his graphics artist may be handling that for Symbols. If any of them, individually or together, need help, perhaps they will call on you.
Writing is not my forte, especially when it comes to being tactful, flowery, or asking for [a book’s] attention, otherwise I would attempt that job myself.

If anyone else can, has been, or is willing to be, a copywriter for Outlaw Press, please let me know.

Quote
Anyhow, the current distribution system is broken, big time, and it will soon be blown away.

Please explain specifically what is going on, and what you know about it’s being ‘blown away’. Perhaps if we know the details of the current situation, we may be able to pick up some pieces and put together something different, better, or suitable for ourselves. At the moment I don’t know where to go with this. This is one reason I suggested a wholesale warehouse (only for OP.)

Quote
I'm capable of book doctoring and have even considered supplementing my income by setting up in that business. Unlike the other two responsibilities above, however, I would do this only on a fee-for-service arrangement. It's too gritty and time-consuming a job to be done gratis or for a percentage of what are likely to be small sales. Problem is, real book doctoring is an expensive proposition, and outside of the world of celebrity writers and such, those who most need it can't afford it. And other than for celebrity writers, the publisher has no motive to fund "doctoring," since an unknown who can't already write well probably won't get the publisher's attention in the first place.

You’re hired; see me in a year. Ha! :-)

Quote
Anyhow, Pagan, I'm extremely impressed at the way you're running with this project, the way you're making decisions, and how well you're educating yourself as you go. Kudos.

Thanks. Personally I think Lightning would make a much better editor-in-chief.
But I want to see Outlaw Press become successful, and it’s this desire that’s giving me impetus.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 19, 2007, 08:58:36 pm
padre29:
Quote
A compilation to try and support Outlaw Press sounds fine, what if Outlaw offered a online catalog of work, each author offering their own project for sale, with Outlaw maintaining the overall structure?

INOW, Author offers book description, along with any cover art and story line, up for sale on an Outlaw Press operation?

Overhead would be low, and snippets could be offered down in Writer's Block of what the book is like?

The catalog of work could be "Outlaw Press's" offer, but instead of a group deciding what was and wasn't published, the individual author could just advertise on Outlaw and take advantage of the services they would offer

Proof Reading etc.

Now "what If?" a titel sold? What would be the best place to have it printed? Who would take the order?

Outlaw Press could just use Lulu to print the books as they are ordered but that might add additional overhead so who knows.

I can see several problems with this idea, padre, all culminating in a “conflict of interest”.

The goals of Outlaw Press might get away from us, leading off in all directions as the authors pursue their separate goals. Not that they don’t have a right to pursue their own goals, but it may not adhere strictly with the idea OP intended. A conflict of interest.

One small example might be if OP decides to make a ‘theme’ cover of a border of black around each book, CD or packaging, the authors’ cover art and graphics may get in the way of that or may ruin the look (or OP’s ‘theme’ might get in the way of the authors’ desires). Again, a conflict of interest.

All in all, a catalog is great, but I think the projects/items should be decided and controlled by OP, otherwise I see no real “overall structure” that OP would maintain. The authors would, in a sense, be using OP for convenience without reciprocal advantage.
I wouldn’t mind helping authors—after all, that’s what we intend to do—but not so they can go off and dilute OP’s purpose. I would hope to protect any freedom writer at OP, but NOT just any writer who wishes to write any thing he wants under OP’s banner. That might be too easy to do under the guidelines you’re mentioning.
The truth is, all writers here are not, strictly speaking, “outlaws”; in any case all projects might not be, strictly speaking, saleable or suitable for keeping us on track of our original intent.

I hope you understand the differentiation I’m making. If I’m misinterpreting what you mean, let me know.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 19, 2007, 09:01:12 pm
Thunder
Quote
I thank you for the support.  However, I'm not sure what I could do. Claire and Lightning, yes.  They both rite gud.  Me?  Not so much.
But, I'll do my best.

Thunder, I think you’d do fine.

As I see it, the real job of this particular editorial board is twofold.

One is recognizing the saleability of all projects submitted to Outlaw Press—whether they are ‘freedom-oriented’ or not. I would need some help in determining the saleability.

The second is keeping the goal of this free press firmly on track—by the choice of projects, the choice of authors, the choice of direction. While some writing may be needed, I see this board more as a means of ensuring no compromise in the  process of sending Outlaw Press out into the world.

I trust your integrity and ability to know what outlaws are all about, and to insist that we stay on course to that end. In fact that’s why I chose you three.
Claire is an obvious choice to know what a freedom outlaw is about—after all, she invented him (uh... and her). I think you and Lightning, individually or in cahoots with each other, understand as well as anyone what this is about, too.
And the ability of all three to work together without employing a collective decision is vital.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Dare2BFree on January 19, 2007, 09:05:32 pm
Quote
f anyone else can, has been, or is willing to be, a copywriter for Outlaw Press, please let me know.

I'm willing to give it a shot.  This is one of the areas that I've been wanting to get some experience in for a while - along with copy editing.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: George Potter on January 19, 2007, 09:49:10 pm
I have some projects lined up to follow Symbols Flow:

Roberta -  Legacy Edition: The story, expanded, with a weird introduction by Rachael A. Shonkwiler-Murphy and the story Virginia Jones, or, A Familiar Tale that sort of wraps the whole thing up somewhere over the rainbow.

The Ballad Of I Know Damn Right: Roadkilling (the finished version of which will be included in SF) and it's epnoymous space opera sequel.

Trenching Trilogy (working title): Trenching (the finished version of which will be included in SF), The Girl Who Heard The Road Sing and An Honest Day's Labour: my fantasy trilogy about the most under rated and necessary force in the 'American Dream', the so called 'unskilled' laborer.

King Of The Road: Which looks like it will clock in right around 40k words, just on the edge of 'novel'. Weaves into and around The Crumbler and Trenching.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 19, 2007, 11:07:57 pm
  Is there any interest, from the Outlaw Press crew, in a Shorty Dawkins Songbook? I can create it using my notation program. Complete sheet music and Lyrics. I have 18 songs on my website, plus 5 or 6 others not made public. (except for the two with lyrics only on TCF. It will take me a while to prepare it, and I will need to know a template size from Lulu, or wherever.

  Shorty
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Shevek on January 20, 2007, 12:13:46 am
I have provided editing and proofreading services, and I have worked as a technical writer for many years. Yet as Claire mentioned, this is a time-consuming activity and not one most people would pursue without some remuneration or compensation. I'm interested in helping, but I need to put beans on the table too. Working gratis on one or two projects per year is one thing, but not full time.

Editing and proofreading is more than being able to read. A skilled eye catches problems, whereas the untrained eye does not. Those problems might be typographical, or might be more complicated such as inconsistencies in the material. And even for a trained eye, there is always the challenge of dealing with a writer's ego. Traditionally (but not always of course), writers fight editors, even when editors are trying to help. :( I doubt this would be a significant issue for this project because only in a traditional publishing house are the employes concerned about their reputation. I think this project is more concerned with distributing material more than the promoting the name as a high-end publishing house.

I also long ago created a book template that could be used to format books to maintain a high degree of consistency. The template contains a lot of tools to massage a manuscript into a press-ready document. I can post PDF samples at my web site if interested.

Quote
Please explain specifically what is going on, and what you know about it's being 'blown away'. Perhaps if we know the details of the current situation, we may be able to pick up some pieces and put together something different, better, or suitable for ourselves. At the moment I don't know where to go with this.
One thing I have noticed is that the publishing model is changing right before our every eyes. The advent of powerful desktop computers is changing that model because people now own the press. Marketing and distribution is the only selling point these days with the traditional publishing houses. Yet, with the web being more common throughout households, marketing is becoming less of a challenge for authors. Distribution is partly answered through electronic versions of books. Further, as information becomes more fluid, the powers that be no longer can contain and control that information. Therefore, many people are no longer willing to pay a lot of money for a book. They expect the information to be available online and often, for free. Several authors are now providing their books for free online in HTML format, offer an electronic version for a nominal download price, and if the demand exists, work through a POD printer to provide hard copies. The traditional publishing houses resist this model because they realize reduced profits. But in the long run, POD will win the day.

Then there are the problems with copyrights. The traditional publishers often demanded all rights to a book and often, the author had no say in later years if that book did not move well and the author wanted to try alternate methods of publishing. But people today are becoming more aware and many resist this model because they can market and distribute through the web. The music industry is experiencing the same problem. People know that the total cost to duplicate a CD is fifty cents, yet these music CDs cost $18 or so. People know that somebody is making a lot of money for very little work. So music artists are now exploring how to market and distribute directly to their fans.

The copyright game has grown wildly out of control, but by controlling these aspects of the process, authors and musicians are learning to better control their rights. Artists are discovering that by allowing fans some freedom to test their work that many fans eventually buy anyway. The traditional publishing houses seem unable to understand this basic fact of human nature and they continue to pursue a Draconian model of protection.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 20, 2007, 05:23:53 am
Selling Outlaw Press

One more subject we should explore before going too far is: what sort of projects can or should Outlaw Press take on? (Or to put it another way—because “Outlaw Trail” is starting to grow on me—what sort of debris should an Outlaw Trail leave behind?)
HOW do we sell freedom and freedoms’ authors?

Books, obviously; that’s what we’re here for.

Audiobooks on CD/DVD, either words or music, is being explored by those who can do it.

Along with books and audio, SHOULD we go in any other direction?
Should any of this be placed online? Podcasts? Should we add printed sheet music, or book accessories such as bookmarks and bookplates?

I tend to feel we shouldn’t get too far from George’s original idea of publishing the books of TCF authors. However I also hear his first words echoing in my head, which were: “Why not?”

If we have a catalog of books and authors, we could also add other items. (But again this entails a warehouse to keep them. Other items are not available like a print-on-demand option. We have to buy them first, at least on consignment, and store them somewhere. This makes us and the items vulnerable.)
~

One thing I should add to my earlier post in response to padre’s suggestions: I understand the need and desire for the author to control his own works—and every author should have that.
I was saying that OP should also have the right to control what comes through, or goes out, under OP’s name. This is bordering on the issue that Kirsten raised regarding copyrights and possible misunderstandings.
~

The above was written before I get the opportunity to study Shevek’s remarks in detail. But they do seem to overlap.
And I, for one, would like to see the book template.


This post was also written before I read Shorty’s post. YES... to the Shorty Dawkins songbook, as far as I’m concerned. (Ask the editorial board!)
As to the size, I frankly don’t know how it would relate to sheet music; my guess (which isn’t adequate knowledge) is a printer-size page, 8.5 x 11, just so the notes could be read properly by those who’re playing the instrument. But you’d know more about that than I do.
Shorty, when you speak of preparing it, are you talking of actual page layout yourself? You probably can do that better, because I’ve never done page layout for musical notes and I don’t read music, so couldn’t do it justice.


GloryRoad: Bring it on!
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 20, 2007, 07:19:09 am
This post was also written before I read Shorty’s post. YES... to the Shorty Dawkins songbook, as far as I’m concerned. (Ask the editorial board!)
As to the size, I frankly don’t know how it would relate to sheet music; my guess (which isn’t adequate knowledge) is a printer-size page, 8.5 x 11, just so the notes could be read properly by those who’re playing the instrument. But you’d know more about that than I do.
Shorty, when you speak of preparing it, are you talking of actual page layout yourself? You probably can do that better, because I’ve never done page layout for musical notes and I don’t read music, so couldn’t do it justice.


I use Noteworthy Composer: http://www.noteworthysoftware.com/
It produces an image file of the sheet music. The file would be placed on the page (within the template?). I would need to know the size of the template. The copy editor could set up the title page, descriptive pages, table of contents, etc., but the actual sheet music pages would be image files. 8.5 by 11 is standard for sheet music. (or bigger. We don't need it bigger, though.)

I await more input from the editorial board.

Shorty
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Shevek on January 20, 2007, 08:58:59 am
Quote
If we have a catalog of books and authors, we could also add other items. (But again this entails a warehouse to keep them.
Not if using POD (print on demand) of course. But using a POD service, such as lulu.com, means a 1099 paper trail. The 1099 will report royalties paid.

Quote
And I, for one, would like to see the book template.
Try here (http://simpleliberty.nfshost.com/research/back_door.htm). Please notice that these are only two examples. Colors and font styles can be modified.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Dare2BFree on January 20, 2007, 09:05:55 am
Quote
I use Noteworthy Composer: http://www.noteworthysoftware.com/
It produces an image file of the sheet music. The file would be placed on the page (within the template?). I would need to know the size of the template. The copy editor could set up the title page, descriptive pages, table of contents, etc., but the actual sheet music pages would be image files. 8.5 by 11 is standard for sheet music. (or bigger. We don't need it bigger, though.)

I await more input from the editorial board.

Shorty

Shorty - Does this add the chords too?  Some of us are do not have the gift of reading music, or at least not very well.  I think the song book is a great idea.  I think it would have more appeal if it had the chords listed along with the music notation.

Just my thought...
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Lightning on January 20, 2007, 09:24:58 am
Whew.  Hey, now.  How'd I end up in the thick of this?  (Oh.  I guess I volunteered myself.   :rolleyes:  ^_^)

Pagan, I do thank you for the confidence.  :sunny: 

A big YES to JDW's and Shevek's (and Thunder's) involvement, too, if they're willing.

Well.  Let me see.  First off, I'm like Claire and Shevek, in that I admit to hesitation regarding the (especially uncompensated) time and effort involved.  And I don't really know what an editorial board does, or whether I'm cut out for it.  But we are making this up as we go along, too.  If you all think I would be a good fit to serve in such a capacity, I'm willing to entertain the idea seriously.

When the marvelous Loompanics was going under, I felt for weeks a desperate wish to create a replacement.  I've been wondering if Outlaw Trail could be just the thing.  Plus, what a joy to publish Outlaw fiction as well - something Loompanics didn't seem to do.

And I LOVE the Outlaw Trail concept.  First, it gives us a big umbrella - not just books and audio, but everything relating to a whole Outlaw way of being.  An Outlaw songbook for those summer evenings on the porch with the dog and a fiddle.  ;)  Outlaw stories to while away long winter nights.  An Outlaw magazine, perhaps, with fun and nostalgic features (a la Old Farmer's Almanac) as well as useful info and stories about independent living. 

Some of this could even come from the public domain - old Western fiction, maybe, reprints of how-to articles from the early 1900s, features on the Resistance during WWII (presented perhaps "as a history lesson"), interviews with oldsters, that kind of thing.  And some could be written by staffers and freelancers.  Even an occasional excerpt from some 1800s publication, a la Horatio Alger or Horace Greeley, about a gentleman's honor, courage, true independence, courtesy, etc..  Don't get me wrong - this magazine wouldn't be all about nostalgia by any means.  That would be more the mask it would wear, and its "hook" to draw readers in.

I think that if we can reach, and appeal to, the men and women who long for this kind of decent, responsible society, we will have found a rich audience.  Because nowadays you ARE an Outlaw if you expect people to deal with you honorably.  The current unwritten laws of human interaction are that perverted.  And those who think for themselves to the extent of needing honor in life are probably also pretty darned independent in other ways.

I'd love to see this magazine become the kind of rag where Claire feels like she can write whatever she really wants to.  And we could serialize some of George's and JDW's stories.   :mellow:

Outlaw Trail...leaving signs along the trail, for others to find as they follow on a similar journey.  Hmm.  I've been playing with this idea in my novel, so I'm excited to think of it as something here-and-now as well.  Also, maybe the Trail name would help the project to remain off the jabbut radar for a while - while calling it a Press might be inviting attention, if you know what I mean.

I can envision a concept website, with a catalog of products, as well as tons of good information on gulching, freeing your mind, showing others the way, etc.  Some of the info on TCF that doesn't make the cut for book inclusion could be compiled here.  A friendly (but realistic) perspective, but not gung-ho survivalist to scare folks away.  Links to the blogs and personal websites of all OT authors and staffers.  I'd also like to include a shadow site, with unlinked and/or private pages (that therefore don't show up on search engines), for more sensitive information.

On marketing: A hard-copy snailmailed catalog, if that's the idea here, would certainly require upfront funds for printing and mailing.  I understand that conversion rates tend to be in the 1-6% range.

Have we considered an e-catalog and a simple website with shopping cart software?  If we could get the blogosphere behind the idea, and could get the project featured in articles on various freedom-oriented sites, that would drive initial traffic to us when the time comes.  Maybe we could get Mike Hoy of Loompanics to endorse the project - he's got quite a lot of sympathizers, I imagine - certainly many here on TCF.

What's our target audience?  With fiction as part of the offering, I think we could go more mainstream with at least some of the marketing.  Then "convert" a few folks to Outlaw thinkin' over time, as they explore OT's offerings further and realize the consistency of ths ideas expressed across the board.  :mellow:  Having an Outlaw magazine would also allow us free ad space, the way Mother Earth News has a "Mother's Bookshelf" section in the back of each issue.

One question I have is, what would your role be in this, Pagan?  You've come up with such excellent questions and concepts already, you seem to be the leading spirit on the project.

Another question is how authors and staffers would be paid.  Now that e-gold isn't safe, does anyone have ideas on the mechanics of this?  Or did I miss that part?

Would it be possible to have OT set up as a trust that would purchase precious metals, then distribute those metals (actual bullion, shipped by insured carrier) to its members on a quarterly basis?  Then the trust might need a bank account to make the purchases, and a tax/EIN status (to report where it got its income, and any realized gains on the value of the metals it holds and pays out to its members), but everyone else could remain incognito. 

OR - since the members would merely be holding the trust's holdings, rather than having the trust selling them and realizing gains, perhaps there wouldn't be a need for an outgoing tax paper trail.  Maybe the trust could even pay its members a certain amount in storage fees.  Anyone know if this would be a viable idea?
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 20, 2007, 10:10:50 am
Quote
I use Noteworthy Composer: http://www.noteworthysoftware.com/
It produces an image file of the sheet music. The file would be placed on the page (within the template?). I would need to know the size of the template. The copy editor could set up the title page, descriptive pages, table of contents, etc., but the actual sheet music pages would be image files. 8.5 by 11 is standard for sheet music. (or bigger. We don't need it bigger, though.)

I await more input from the editorial board.

Shorty

Shorty - Does this add the chords too?  Some of us are do not have the gift of reading music, or at least not very well.  I think the song book is a great idea.  I think it would have more appeal if it had the chords listed along with the music notation.

Just my thought...

Unfortunately, no.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Claire on January 20, 2007, 10:46:19 am
Quote
Please explain specifically what is going on, and what you know about it's being 'blown away'. Perhaps if we know the details of the current situation, we may be able to pick up some pieces and put together something different, better, or suitable for ourselves. At the moment I don't know where to go with this.
One thing I have noticed is that the publishing model is changing right before our every eyes. The advent of powerful desktop computers is changing that model because people now own the press. Marketing and distribution is the only selling point these days with the traditional publishing houses. Yet, with the web being more common throughout households, marketing is becoming less of a challenge for authors. Distribution is partly answered through electronic versions of books. Further, as information becomes more fluid, the powers that be no longer can contain and control that information. Therefore, many people are no longer willing to pay a lot of money for a book. They expect the information to be available online and often, for free. Several authors are now providing their books for free online in HTML format, offer an electronic version for a nominal download price, and if the demand exists, work through a POD printer to provide hard copies. The traditional publishing houses resist this model because they realize reduced profits. But in the long run, POD will win the day.

Shevek pretty well summed up what I consider to be "broken" about the current publishing/distribution system. There's more to say, of course, but basically you've still got an old monopolistic (not monopoly, but certainly centralized and heavily controling) model running the publishing and distribution of books. In the last 10 years, that industry has become even more centralized in a few hands.

Meanwhile, you've got lots of small publishers and eager authors who can't get their books into bookstores because the publishing-industry "chain of command" shuts them out. You've got a system in which libraries only buy books that are mentioned in a handful of important industry publications -- and those publications ignore small press books. (There's a political factor here, too, in which books get favorable reviews and which don't.) Youv'e got outrageous practices --like ripping the covers off books that don't sell after just a few weeks and "remaindering" them -- so that even if small-press books do manage to get into bookstores, they don't stand a chance.

As Shevek says, POD is the wave of the future -- especially with new developments like the Espresso (Expresso?) that prints books while you wait. But still ... the big publishers currently control who gets reviewed in the "important" publications, whose books get promoted, and whose appear right before the eyes of the buying public..

Even if our books eventually become available via ATM-style machines, how do people know about them? We pass the word around through the Internet, but with rare, rare exceptions (like John Ross), that generates sales of, at most, a few thousand copies. The Loompanics/Paladin model of catalog sales works after a fashion -- but again produces pretty limited sales.

POD may be the wave of the future. But it isn't the NOW. I can't tell you the number of times somebody has contacted me to say, "I heard about your books, but I didn't see them at the bookstore and the clerk even told me they can't order them." For the time being, the inability to get into bookstores and to stay there and sell there remains a huge barrier. That'll change. It has to. But ... well, a lot of us have been waiting a long time.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Plinker-MS on January 20, 2007, 12:47:59 pm
Quote
I use Noteworthy Composer: http://www.noteworthysoftware.com/
It produces an image file of the sheet music. The file would be placed on the page (within the template?). I would need to know the size of the template. The copy editor could set up the title page, descriptive pages, table of contents, etc., but the actual sheet music pages would be image files. 8.5 by 11 is standard for sheet music. (or bigger. We don't need it bigger, though.)

I await more input from the editorial board.

Shorty

Shorty - Does this add the chords too?  Some of us are do not have the gift of reading music, or at least not very well.  I think the song book is a great idea.  I think it would have more appeal if it had the chords listed along with the music notation.

Just my thought...

Unfortunately, no.

You may want to check out LilyPond (http://lilypond.org/web/switch/tour).

It is free, poweful, and flexible -- and I'm sure it can put chords where you want them.

Also, the RoseGarden (http://www.rosegardenmusic.com/) composer tool will generate LilyPond output for sheetmusic.



Also
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Shevek on January 20, 2007, 01:52:07 pm
Quote
Meanwhile, you've got lots of small publishers and eager authors who can't get their books into bookstores because the publishing-industry "chain of command" shuts them out.
Somebody please correct me, but I think that most retailers also will not sell books without an ISBN.

Quote
You've got a system in which libraries only buy books that are mentioned in a handful of important industry publications -- and those publications ignore small press books.
Somebody please correct me, but I think the librarians also ignore most (all?) books that do not have a Library of Congress No. Any librarians here who can verify that? I think many librarians in small towns and rural areas make exceptions for local authors, but probably not much more than that.

Quote
There's a political factor here, too, in which books get favorable reviews and which don't.) You've got outrageous practices --like returning books that don't sell after just a few weeks with their covers torn off -- so that even if small-press books do get into bookstores, they don't stand a chance.
Oh yeah! I had a friend who ran a bookstore and one day I saw several boxes of books with the front covers ripped off. I was sick. I asked my friend and he just shrugged. Not his policy and he had no control.

Quote
POD may be the wave of the future. But it isn't the NOW.
Agreed. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. :) Getting there, but not quite there!

There also is a general perception among many people that unless a book is published in a "real" publishing house, the book is some sort of "vanity" publishing effort. Over the years I have found some nice books that were published through alternate means, but that is not the general perception by many people. Thus, a publishing press company, like Outlaw Press, could provide web surfers the perception of a "real" publishing house.

Quote
I heard about your books, but I didn't see them at the bookstore and the clerk even told me they can't order them.
Just a guess, but could this be related to ISBNs? All the book retailers use computer databases to order books and they all are indexed using the ISBN. But as you mentioned, even some of those books are not orderable because there is no volume. This is where POD will eventually change the climate.

Quote
I can envision a concept web site, with a catalog of products, as well as tons of good information on gulching, freeing your mind, showing others the way, etc. Some of the info on TCF that doesn't make the cut for book inclusion could be compiled here.
Sure, and a lot of the material now posted in the Writer's Block forum could instead be posted to this web site. A public forum for potential readers and fans to participate in the writing process.

Quote
Have we considered an e-catalog and a simple web site with shopping cart software?
Sounds like accepting credit cards and third-party accounts, which means a bank account.

Quote
Maybe we could get Mike Hoy of Loompanics to endorse the project
Perhaps somebody who knows him could contact him and ask him for advice regarding the idea, technicalities, legalities, etc.

Quote
Another question is how authors and staffers would be paid. Now that e-gold isn't safe, does anyone have ideas on the mechanics of this? Or did I miss that part?
This was one of my original points. How is this going to happen, and what about paper trails?

Quote
Would it be possible to have OT set up as a trust that would purchase precious metals, then distribute those metals (actual bullion, shipped by insured carrier) to its members on a quarterly basis?
Not to be discouraging, but setting up a trust automatically invites the IRS thugs to snoop and investigate. In their mind, all trusts are used to evade taxation. Evade, not avoid is their perception. The thugs and judges seldom treat trusts kindly if an alleged tax is owed.

Quote
Then the trust might need a bank account to make the purchases, and a tax/EIN status (to report where it got its income, and any realized gains on the value of the metals it holds and pays out to its members), but everyone else could remain incognito.
Applying for an EIN creates jurisdiction for taxation. Keeping the authors list silent might be possible for a while, but not in any audit. The thugs will want a paper trail, or they will accuse the operation of money laundering or cash structuring. They might even demand that 1099s be filed against each author and sub contractor. This is what I was getting at in my original post. All of us here at TCF could care less about paper trails and taxes, but we still have to deal with JBTs, customers, etc. This entire idea sounds great, and I hate being a sourpuss, but until everybody deals with the reality of the legal structure, potential taxes, paper trails, etc., the project is probably going to attract flies---the kind with badges and guns.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Claire on January 20, 2007, 02:12:52 pm
Somebody please correct me, but I think that most retailers also will not sell books without an ISBN.

That's true. But fortunately, it's not a problem. ISBNs are extremely easy to get and use.

As to Library of Congress numbers ... I'm not sure. They used to be important, but I believe ISBNs have replaced them, as far as being necessary for distribution.

Distribution problems for small publishers aren't ISBN-related, since absolutely anybody can slap an ISBN on a book and small presses can buy 10 ISBNs at a time and use them as new titles come off the press. The big distribution problem is this: Chain bookstores buy only from distributors  -- and in some cases from only the four national distributors (a handful of others are regional). The national distributors won't touch books from any publisher that doesn't put out at least 10 titles per year. Two of the nationals will occasionally make exceptions IF you can make an extremely good case for a title's marketability. But they're completely arbitrary.

As I mentioned elsewhere, Aaron and I had an agreement with Barnes & Noble to buy copies of RebelFire. But they required us to sell to them through a national distributor. Only one national distributor would talk to us -- and even though we came to them with marketing plan, website, RF stamp campaign and guaranteed order from one of the biggest booksellers in the world they wouldn't carry RF. Weird.

That brings up another aspect of why I think current distribution is broken: Distributors expect you to sell them your titles at about 45 percent of retail. That might be okay if they returned (intact) the books that didn't sell so you could place them elsewhere. But the destruction of the non-selling books wipes out any possibility of profit for a small struggling publisher.

I don't mean to be completely negative, though. I'm not saying Outlaw Trail can't work. I'm just answering Pagan's question about the brokenness of the current publishing/distribution system. And I guess I'm also saying, "Forget ever getting into bookstores or libraries until things change. Sell direct only."
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 20, 2007, 02:38:53 pm
You may want to check out LilyPond (http://lilypond.org/web/switch/tour).

It is free, powerful, and flexible -- and I'm sure it can put chords where you want them.

Also, the RoseGarden (http://www.rosegardenmusic.com/) composer tool will generate LilyPond output for sheetmusic.


From what I gather, you have to know the chords to insert them. I don't play guitar and don't know chords.
I can input text chords, not the graphical chords, on my Noteworthy Composer. If someone were to agree to write the chords in annd scan them back to me, I could include them.

Shorty
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 20, 2007, 03:51:46 pm
I hear all of you, and I appreciate your responses. I'll get back to you tomorrow -- I hope!

I've been with fever and chilling all day.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 20, 2007, 04:25:56 pm
I hear all of you, and I appreciate your responses. I'll get back to you tomorrow -- I hope!

I've been with fever and chilling all day.

Get well, pagan.

 Shorty
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Lazarus Long on January 21, 2007, 11:12:57 am
Catherder Press?

Catheter Press?  :laugh:  What do catheters have to do with freedom? What kind of a logo are you imagining for that?

I've been offline for a couple of days, and need to catch up with this thread, but in the meantime here are a few thoughts:

As a customer, I'd be looking for ways to order anonymously, whether purchasing hardcopy or a download. Accepting cash and/or money orders via the mail would be a plus - even as payment for a download.

Does Lulu try to claim exclusive rights to ship your book, or do you have the option of distributing it yourself concurrently in other ways? You could do like Jack Luna does with some of his latest download-only reports, and charge a little extra to mail printed hard copy. It could be a side-business for anybody who's already got a PC, a laser printer, and a 3-hole-punch sitting around - an on-demand printer who accepts cash and money orders, and doesn't require you to give an email address.

Speaking of Jack Luna, I'd say it would be worth studying his business model for publishing, promotion, and distribution. Check out his website at www.canaryislandspress.com. His facade is more respectable than subversive, but look at how he runs things. The web site is registered in the name of a nominee, and the web hosting and design may be provided by a consulting client of his. How he arranges his finances, I can only guess. Probably has something to do with the n-word, again.

Payment for contributors is good, but I have often wondered how exactly one goes about publishing anonymously AND getting paid for it. Any ideas around here? (There's a how-to book idea right there. I'd buy it.) Seems like Shevek has some good ideas in this direction. The consignment route sounds good.

I like the idea of a loose, very-decentralized non-association of authors publishing under the same GPL'ed name & logo. If it gets too big or official it'll just become a target. It needs to be like the Weapons Shops of Isher.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 21, 2007, 01:49:09 pm
Lightning:
Quote
Whew. Hey, now.... Maybe the trust could even pay its members a certain amount in storage fees. Anyone know if this would be a viable idea?
  All inclusive.

See? I TOLD you Lightning would make a better editor-in-chief!

So many ideas, I don’t know where to start, so I’ll just sum it up from my POV:

I am a nurse who is tired of nursing and tired from nursing. I am old enough that I just want to pull in my horn and be left alone. My only ambition now is ideological: I want to see freedom prevail. I know that I will never see it, but I hope that my son and grandson will.

If OT got off the ground I’d like to be a ‘private contractor’ for page layout services. And I’d always be willing to contribute any ideas I might have.
If I were able to “buy” OT, i.e. start/own a business like you envision, I would put the most talented, freedom-loving people I could find on the payroll, and still do most of the layout work myself. (In fact I was busy experimenting with page layout when I first saw this thread. I’ve been online more in the past two weeks than ever before—and it’s keeping me from my page layout, guys!)   

Actually I had thought of a magazine, a paper one (which is indeed vulnerable) but also an e-zine. I thought a good point of takeoff was ... drumroll, please: The Freedom Outlaw! But not knowing your interest or schedule, I refrained from mentioning it before.

Quote
And I LOVE the Outlaw Trail concept. First, it gives us a big umbrella - not just books and audio, but everything relating to a whole Outlaw way of being.
AND
Quote
Outlaw Trail...leaving signs along the trail, for others to find as they follow on a similar journey.

Yes, exactly.
The idea of an outlaw “trail” came because it occurred to me that outlaws need to know what they’re doing, where they’re going and how to get there. They can’t afford NOT to know: riding into a town that’s waiting for them is dangerous; so is taking a trail they don’t know which could lead them into a box canyon. 
Applying this to freedom, we also have to know what we’re doing, where we’re going, and how to get there. So far anarchists and libertarians have not made that connection (especially the ‘where we’re going and how to get there’.)
I, too, thought we could use Outlaw Trail to arrive at some consistency and consensus (sorry for the use of that word), but I hadn’t developed the idea into what you’ve envisioned, Lightning. I think it would work!!
(As a tomboy who was raised on B-westerns, I look forward to the implementation of some of these ideas, esp. as they might apply to page layout.)

Bette Davis once said, “I love acting, it’s my meat and potatoes. The money is the gravy.” That’s the way I feel about page layout and about OT. And both have set my creative juices to flowing.
~
P.S: Your idea of bringing John and Shevek on to the editorial board is a good one; they each bring their unique approach and knowledge to the table.
So, John DeWitt and Shevek—you are invited to join the group! Please...
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 21, 2007, 01:50:18 pm
Quote
Get well, pagan.

 Shorty

Thanks, Shorty. I am better, thank you... but  just washed out.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 21, 2007, 01:52:55 pm
Re distribution: Originally I had planned to do page layout AND print-on-demand. But decent book quality printers are beyond my finances. Now I’m thinking of only a laser jet printer, printing out small numbers (less than 1000) of non-bound copy (newsletters, pamphlets, brochures and the like.)

If someone set up with a professional digital printer (which are not that space-consuming; they could be placed in a basement with room to spare for supplies AND storage) , it could fill the bill for OT.
Unfortunately the printer makers (HP, etc) want your business info in order to sell the printer to you. It might be a job for a mole, however.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Plinker-MS on January 21, 2007, 11:58:45 pm
From what I gather, you have to know the chords to insert them. I don't play guitar and don't know chords.
I can input text chords, not the graphical chords, on my Noteworthy Composer. If someone were to agree to write the chords in annd scan them back to me, I could include them.

Shorty

Text chords are just fine, and are preferable to sheet music notation.  Bonus points if you have a rhythm or strum pattern marked.  Most guitarists have several ways to play each chord, and there is no need to specify the fingering for each chord unless you are playing some obscure jazz chords or doing something tricky.

(So sayeth the Plinker, who knows about three chords and can make dogs, children, and other small animals flee the house when he plays --- if it's too loud, you're too old!)  :headbang:
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 22, 2007, 09:10:02 am
BTW, the problem of distribution, marketing, printing, wholesaling, et al brings up a point. If one is already in the system and is planning to leave at a given time in the future, it might be possible to plan for your eventual "social demise" by learning some trade that can be applied not just to a gulch, but to an outlaw system (Outlaw Trail e.g., if you planned to be a part of it). Someone interested in printing, binding books, marketing, or whatever might start learning the business now. Online courses are available for some trades; community colleges, even local ‘apprenticeships’, are available too.

I realize I didn’t mention bookbinding in my previous post.
While commercial printers do binding at the same time, a one-man self-publisher might not be able to bind books but refer you to a bookbinder.
A bindery in any particular area could do the job (unless it only does hand bookbinding), but of course you’d have to trust them. (I knew one in the State of Washington, a gung-ho guy in Spokane who would be perfect, but he was middle-aged then, in the 60’s. Believe me, the name “Outlaw Trail” would not faze him one bit!)

A printer who also did binding would be perfect for our purposes, but that takes a much larger skill-learning process (unless he apprenticed to a printer who taught all-in-one)--not to mention time, space to set up, and money outlay.    
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Claire on January 22, 2007, 02:05:21 pm
Pagan,

I hope you're feeling a lot better now.

And how's this for a more "wolfed up" version (http://www.clairewolfe.com/images/WolfLogoBlackWolf_TEST_012207.jpg) of the black wolf logo? Still too doggy? Or sufficiently wild?

Even if you like it, I still need to do more work. This is the first piece of art I ever executed on computer (using The GIMP). Even if it's artistically okay, it has technical problems that a smart person might have to help me resolve.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Thunder on January 22, 2007, 03:57:05 pm
I like it!



Oh, and I'm not familiar with Gimp (I have Photoshop), but I can try to answer any questions you might have
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Claire on January 22, 2007, 04:57:16 pm
Thank you on both counts, Thunder! I'll email you my question.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 22, 2007, 07:39:52 pm
I like it too -- MUCHO! The eye gives him that wolfish look, almost as much as the silhouette does.

In the logo I mentioned, I said the slogan could go beneath "Outlaw Trail". I wonder if it could be drawn around the head of the wolf instead, something like a small-print halo, that makes a 3/4 -- or even  a complete -- circle with Outlaw Trail on the bottom? Any ideas from those who can visualize this, or anyone who might know how to draw a logo?


Yes, thanks, I'm feeling better now.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Lightning on January 23, 2007, 04:55:41 pm
Claire, IMHO, the wolf logo is excellent.  That single, narrow eye, so alive and glitteringly intelligent amidst the night-dark fur, makes the whole thing, makes it wild rather than domesticated.  The ears are alert, twitched forward, attending carefully to what lies ahead on the trail.  The serrated look of that fur of the chest implies ruggedness and a threat to the careless.

On second (okay, well, fourth  :laugh: ) glance, I do get a sense of femaleness from this black wolf, a hint of ferocity if the need for protection of self or loved ones arises.  I wonder if a couple of whiskers would help, or hinder - adding another avenue of perception, maybe.

Not to flatter you at all, but I do think it's simple and strong enough to convey a highly powerful message.  It really does speak volumes, and it's a wonderfully clean, simple image, which is ideal for a logo.

And Pagan, I think your vision of the wreathed "Outlaw Trail" would match this image just right.  Perhaps in a semi-Old West or 1800s newspaper font style?

Glad to hear you're feeling more yourself again!  :sunny:

Sorry I can't add a lot to this conversation, but I've got a crazy week going on.  Will check in as often as I can.

Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Claire on January 23, 2007, 05:31:11 pm
Claire, IMHO, the wolf logo is excellent.  That single, narrow eye, so alive and glitteringly intelligent amidst the night-dark fur, makes the whole thing, makes it wild rather than domesticated.  The ears are alert, twitched forward, attending carefully to what lies ahead on the trail.  The serrated look of that fur of the chest implies ruggedness and a threat to the careless.

On second (okay, well, fourth  :laugh: ) glance, I do get a sense of femaleness from this black wolf, a hint of ferocity if the need for protection of self or loved ones arises.  I wonder if a couple of whiskers would help, or hinder - adding another avenue of perception, maybe.

Not to flatter you at all, but I do think it's simple and strong enough to convey a highly powerful message.  It really does speak volumes, and it's a wonderfully clean, simple image, which is ideal for a logo.

For some reason, Lightning, I'm in a poetic mood this afternoon, and your words almost made me feel like a (female, of course  :laugh: ) wolf prowling the mountain snow. She pauses on a rock outcrop. She sniffs the air over the Outlaw Trail. Ah ... humans. She dashes through the snow toward her den.

Thank you. For the warm comments and the experience.

Whiskers ... hm. They wouldn't show well when the logo is reduced. But I can fool around with trying some on a version of the drawing. at large size, they might look cool.

BTW, Pagan has the final version now and I hear rumors that she may be doing something creative with it as we speak. And speaking of creative, many thanks to Thunder for helping get that wolf drawing into good shape.

Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Thunder on January 23, 2007, 05:41:16 pm
And speaking of creative, many thanks to Thunder for helping get that wolf drawing into good shape.

T'weren't nuthin'!

You did all the hard work, I just gave ya a friendly nudge to get ya over the hump.

But, you're most welcome!  It was the neighborly/TCF thing to do.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 23, 2007, 06:11:13 pm
I don't think the whiskers would show well; besides they might look less symbolic and more life-like, and I don't think that's what we (or George) wanted.

I've tried the curved words both under and over his head (I mean, hers!), but they don't curve enough with the program I'm currently using to be meaningful that way; they might as well be straight. Will keep trying.
 
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Lightning on January 23, 2007, 09:19:18 pm
For some reason, Lightning, I'm in a poetic mood this afternoon, and your words almost made me feel like a (female, of course  :laugh: ) wolf prowling the mountain snow. She pauses on a rock outcrop. She sniffs the air over the Outlaw Trail. Ah ... humans. She dashes through the snow toward her den.

Cool.  Poetic can be very good.  Prowl on!   :mellow:

I don't think the whiskers would show well; besides they might look less symbolic and more life-like, and I don't think that's what we (or George) wanted.

Yes, good point.  The symbolic feel of the image is its strength.

I was thinking that the whiskers might help the wold look a bit more male or indeterminate, but hey, I got no problem with a lady wolf.   :laugh:
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Lightning on January 23, 2007, 09:23:36 pm
Hey, just had a thought on the logo...

Instead of wrapping or curving the words around the wolf head, if that's too tricky, how about keeping them aligned normally, or just giving them the little bit of curve you mentioned...then surrounding the whole with an oval shape?  A sort of cameo look, with a nice border that fits the theme.

Just a thought, take it or leave it with or without salt, since I dunno how you're envisioning the finished look.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on January 24, 2007, 12:50:45 am
Lightning:
Quote
Just a thought, take it or leave it with or without salt, since I dunno how you're envisioning the finished look.

I don't either. :-)

Right now I'm just playing. There seems to be too many words for the one wolfhead to handle, and I don't know what to do with them all. "Freedom is not just a word" looks very nice slightly curved (or even straight) below it, but it's messed up by "Outlaw Trail".
OTOH, "Outlaw Trail" looks nice & neatly displayed below or on either side of the wolfhead, but "Freedom...etc" makes it too busy.

I'd been trying for a circle; I'll play with an oval, that might give it a little more room to fit in all the words. 
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Scott Roth on January 27, 2007, 01:17:09 pm
Shorty, sounds like a great idea.  Count me in. (As if you knew I wouldn't want to be involved.)
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on January 27, 2007, 02:11:34 pm
Shorty, sounds like a great idea.  Count me in. (As if you knew I wouldn't want to be involved.)

Cool, Scott. I'll give you a call.

Shorty
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Scott Roth on January 27, 2007, 10:35:06 pm
Lookin' forward to it.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: PintofStout on February 07, 2007, 03:56:07 pm
Whew, it has been quite a while since I've been here.  I had a few pages of this thread to catch up on, but have come to the end of the TRAIL.

Perhaps it would be best to break up into two or three work groups to sort out a business plan.  One group could discuss creative content, products, and formats, etc.  The next group could discuss matters of distribution, marketing, and the nature of the relationship of OT to authors/creators, while the third group can discuss legal and contracting strategies for a few different options.  For instance, will the author wish to remain anonymous and "under the radar" or will receiving income and perhaps the JBTs to go with it.  A decision will likely have to be made about the scope and hope for such a venture in terms of size and how public of a face.

I think I offered before to be a mole and try to shield some people as much as possible from an unwanted spotlight.  That would almost certainly be necessary for a scope of any considerable size (above mere pamphleteers).  That is a hard reality to swallow given the nature of our convictions, but going with the flow in the mainstream may be the easiest way to accomplish the goal of distribution for the sacrifice of playing along only as much is necessary.  How much is necessary?  That could be a question for the legal committee to ruminate over.

If we decided to stay small and hidden, we can try to have the same amount of influence through a larger network.  I'm thinking here of some sort of counter-economic (a la SEK3) network for selling material that has the capability of being completely hidden and yet profitable.  It might involve a few people in a few different regions with printers that print the stuff to give to those selling it or buying it.  I don't know.

Instead of going in several directions at once, we can try to decide where we want to go, how might be best to get there, and finally what are we taking with us?

I was trying to emphasize - and doing poorly - that this can be done in true outlaw style, but the scope has to be smaller.  We could also make the scope larger and do all we can to minimize our immersion in the system while realizing we will have to have some part of us in it.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on February 07, 2007, 06:10:19 pm
PintofStout:
Quote
Perhaps it would be best to break up into two or three work groups to sort out a business plan. One group could discuss creative content, products, and formats, etc. The next group could discuss matters of distribution, marketing, and the nature of the relationship of OT to authors/creators, while the third group can discuss legal and contracting strategies for a few different options.


Well, I don’t know how that would work: you know what they say about groups (see your own sig): “One man alone can be pretty dumb sometimes, but for real bona fide stupidity there ain't nothing can beat teamwork”...... Seldom Seen Smith of The Monkeywrench Gang by Edward Abbey.

Sorry to throw that back at you, but I couldn’t resist. :-)

Seriously... let me ponder what you said some more. It’s a nice idea, and I believe you’re on the right track for us getting things accomplished; but I’m not sure we could get enough groups together -- or even enough individuals to make one group. If that could be accomplished, however....

Quote
If we decided to stay small and hidden, we can try to have the same amount of influence through a larger network.  I'm thinking here of some sort of counter-economic (a la SEK3) network for selling material that has the capability of being completely hidden and yet profitable.  It might involve a few people in a few different regions with printers that print the stuff to give to those selling it or buying it.  I don't know.


As long as there was consistency in the output, that might work.

Any thoughts on any part of PoS's post from anyone else: George? Claire? Thunder? Lightning? John? Shorty? And Shevek? (Almost forgot you.)
ANYBODY?


Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Claire on February 07, 2007, 06:54:30 pm
I think the two or three or five people who are most interested in the concept should run with it as a profit-making venture  according to what they think will work best & damn everybody else's opinions.

Others outside the core group could be called upon for specific functions (e.g. as Pagan already outlined, editorial board, proofreading, marketing, etc.) But for an idea like this to work, a few highly motivated people need to be in charge -- and the prospect of making money (while promoting freedom) seems a fine motivation to me.

I also think Pagan has natural leadership ability and strong interest.

Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Lightning on February 07, 2007, 08:53:55 pm
I haven't forgotten about this project, not by a longshot. 

In fact, I recently discussed it with a TCFer who's also a fine author, who had some unexpected thoughts about taking it more public - an "underground" publishing house competing openly in the bigger market.  Intriguing indeed!  Workable?  I don't know.  It has the advantage of a broader audience, which I think could be useful from the profit-making standpoint.  It could also attract outside financial support.  But...what about privacy?

That's where I'm stuck - the how of it all.  Here are a couple of ideas I jotted down:

    Could it be a member association?  Trade association?  A non-lobbying entity, for philosophical reasons, therefore not subject to any grassroots BS laws Congress might pass one of these days.  Membership would entitle one to a free book (or five) each year, say, and the org would be nonprofit, but not thru .gov status.  How would that work?
    Donations only?  A scholarship or writer's grant-sponsoring entity, funded by private donations? 
    A writers' (and readers') club supported by contributions? 
    Subscriptions in some form?  Maybe the books could all appear first in magazine serialization?  Then later a "Whole Shebang of Outlaw Trail" could be published as an annual supplement?

I need to do some research on the options that might be workable.  Hopefully I can get on that this coming weekend.

I also think Pagan has natural leadership ability and strong interest.

Agreed!   :mellow:  I'd like to see you taking a bigger role than mere page layout, Pagan.

I'd also like to hear from the others who are really interested in the whole thing.  No one else but Pagan and Shevek responded to the editorial concepts I posted, so I'm wondering if people were turned off or lost interest somehow.  (Or maybe just got busy with life outside of TCF?  Heaven knows that certainly happens.  ;) )  I'm flattered that Pagan wanted me to play an editorial role, but if I'm not the right woman for the job, that's fine too.  I would very much like to participate in some fashion, but the specific role isn't important.

Can we have some more and ongoing discussion?  Ideas?  Testing waters, perhaps?

I don't want to see this project wither on the vine.  Pagan, I think you've got a point about working groups being a no-go as yet.  Shall we consider individually taking on aspects of the project to delve into?  Business structure and marketing/sales seem to be the big hurdles right now - if we can get those solved, then the question of editorial content would come next.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on February 07, 2007, 09:39:45 pm
  I've been thinking that the publishing side can be separated from the disribution side. The creation, layout, and printing can easily stay underground, I believe, if the distribution arm is decentralized.

   What if we create a network of independent distributors who purchase the books from the publishing side. If their were at least one distributorship wiliing to be "out there" in the public eye, everyone else could be invisible.

Shorty

P.S. I would be willing to be one of the "Public" distributors.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: PintofStout on February 08, 2007, 08:10:31 am
Well, Pagan, you got me there with my signature, but whether we are currently one large group pulling at the same set of problems or a few smaller groups with focus our stupidity is better off concentrated for potency.

Lightning, I like the idea of the writers' and readers' club.  It could have a non-profit face run by donations and grants (though they may still be in the public eye).  If some members want to be particularly good members and buy several memberships for the purpose of having a surplus of books for which to sell, that would be ok, too.

We could maintain an all cash operation, which is what I was thinking would be smaller than some of our imaginations have it.  Formal contracts would mean a paper trail, but may be worth it.  There really isn't a size limit to the all cash option; it just grows slower as great care is taken as to who is involved and dealt with, and it takes some of the mainstream outlets out of the picture.  Hopefully the industry changes to our advantage in the future.

As for my role, I am definitely in this to make money - the more the better (to make it my full-time gig anyway).  I would also like to have an outlet for some work if it ever comes to that.  For now though, I could do lots of leg work, and in the spirit of small business, take on several different roles until it grows out of that mode.  I will try and research costs for a laser printer and binder today.  I started into that a year ago and discovered the self-publishing industry is already kicking in a PoD format.  Most places charge for ISBN numbers, LoC numbers, copyrights, etc, as well as charging for editing if desired, graphic artists if desired, among other things.  I never got to layout, but I think Pagan has that covered.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on February 08, 2007, 09:12:13 am
Lightning:
Quote
But...what about privacy?

That's where I'm stuck - the how of it all.

Yeah, what you said! This is the sticking point for me.
That –plus: how to operate real-time in a ghost world.

For example, I think a “trust fund” based on donations and/or small part of everyone’s real business set aside each month might be the foundation for Outlaw Trail. (Everyone that’s interested and willing to contribute, that is.)
But... where would this money be physically held? And what kind of money should it be? (Personally, I’d like to see a small percentage of it converted to metal every 3 or 6 months. That metal would be the donators’ “stock”; instead of worthless Wall Street, Outlaw Trail would offer real-time security in the form of true value. When an individual chose to opt out of donating, they’d stop earning metal security. Those active “employees” of Outlaw Trail could be paid in metal as well, all or in part as they chose.) I digress...
There’s no place to hold the money (and noone I’d ask to place themselves in that danger), nor is there any real-life institution we could trust to keep it quiet, and for us alone.

(Money could also be handled in the same way from contributions through the writers/readers club. See below.)

Quote
Could it be a member association? Trade association? A non-lobbying entity, for philosophical reasons, therefore not subject to any grassroots BS laws Congress might pass one of these days. Membership would entitle one to a free book (or five) each year, say, and the org would be nonprofit, but not thru .gov status. How would that work?

Am not sure if that would work; there’s too many BS laws on the books we don’t know about. I suspect somebody could find a loophole to get to us – or make one up. The legal minds on the forum would know better about that.

Quote
A writers' (and readers') club supported by contributions? 
    Subscriptions in some form? Maybe the books could all appear first in magazine serialization? Then later a "Whole Shebang of Outlaw Trail" could be published as an annual supplement?

I like a writers/readers club; it might work – if enough writers are willing to trust in sufficient contributions from their readers, and enough readers willing to trust in their favorite writers’ output.

Lightning, would you be willing to set up an e-zine (from your website)?
(BTW, I laid out a practice magazine cover just for fun – for a printed magazine, that is – which I’d like to show you. Not sure it would fit an e-zine format, however. Would you give me your email address so I can send it to you? Or I can send it via Thunder, as I’ve been communicating with him for the cookbook.)

~
Shorty:
Quote
What if we create a network of independent distributors who purchase the books from the publishing side. If their were at least one distributorship wiliing to be "out there" in the public eye, everyone else could be invisible...

P.S. I would be willing to be one of the "Public" distributors.

Shorty, would your ‘distributorship’ be willing to tie in with the writers/readers club; to wit, would it be willing to give a discount of, say, 10% off all sales (like the bookstores give) for all items in the store sold to those who join the W/R club?

(And how is your ‘distributorship’ coming along, BTW? I really would like to keep posted on this as it develops.)

Would any other distributors, public or not, be willing to offer a discount to those W/R Club contributors?
PintofStout, I’m not sure what your real-time business is, but if you were an Outlaw Trail distributor, would you be willing to give a discount to W/R Club contributors?

(If any distributor is an employee of some company in real-life, this discount would be only for the OT products being distributed; it obviously could not be for any product or service for which the OT distributor had no control.)

~
*Edited to add, after reading PintofStout’s post:
1. I know about the printers; I’d be interested to know what it takes (both price and space) for a binder.

2. Legwork is good! (Online, that would be research.)

3. If you were looking into publishing last year, what was your purpose – to publish your own works, or to publish other writers’ works?

4. I agree we should deal in cash, but where would it physically go on a daily, coming-in-to-the-office basis?

5.
Quote
If some members want to be particularly good members and buy several memberships for the purpose of having a surplus of books for which to sell, that would be ok, too.

That would help distribution for sure, but it could (tho’ not necessarily) get out of control, and take income away from our own known distributors.
I feel a weakness here, but can’t put my finger on it right now.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on February 08, 2007, 09:15:43 am
OK... here’s what we’ve got at the moment as we originally tossed out ideas – but priorities may change as the projects come available or not:

1. TCF Cookbook (it’s progressing nicely).

2. Symbols Flow, George’s book. (Are words flowing, George? Haven’t heard from you lately.)

3. 2nd Cookbook. (If it gets off the ground; otherwise we’ll have to postpone or sack it completely.)

4. Anthology of freedom writers; may include any or all: short stories, essays, poetry, songs, perhaps ONE novella... by which writers? Sign up please, if you want to be included, and tell which work you want to include or are planning. (Sign-up can be public or private, as you wish, in the forum or by PM.)

I think this could be a big, forceful project if you want to make it so. It probably should be considered as a longer-term idea, proceeding simultaneously with other projects.

5. Walt’s Gulch, John Dewitt’s book. I’d like to get this book under way; it deserves some attention. It will probably finish before the Anthology.

6. Audiobooks; Shorty’s suggestion, and a good one. They too can proceed along with other projects. Unfortunately I don’t know how to help with this. Is anyone available to contribute ideas, technical advice or actual hands-on audio development if/when Shorty requests it? Contact Shorty directly, or me (and I will pass it on to him).

7. E-zine and multiple outlaw “trails”. Who knows where that may lead!
(The ‘gulching project’ might even get off the ground by this means. This could be “serialized” in the magazine. Claire knows what I’m talking about here; sorry for the in-comment.)

8... etc. Like Lightning, I wouldn’t want to see OT fold at some point.
This is what I said at the beginning, because it will affect what I personally do in the future; and I feel it might affect the lives of several writers as well.
If they’re willing to commit to OT (not exclusively, but on a regular basis), I will commit to them and to OT exclusively. Otherwise I can’t afford to.

And: while the ideas can keep flowing – from anyone, on any subject, for any project, at any time – I can’t do page layout adequately except one book/project at a time. This is why I need a backup mind: to help make decisions on any given project while I’m physically working on another.

Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on February 08, 2007, 09:31:55 am
P.S:
Just 3 or 4 good writers on a regular basis, plus the e-zine (some of which could be free, the rest by subscription), in the OT stable should be enough to keep us going.

Also: I forgot (how could I!) to mention Claire's Hardyville series as one of the earlier planning projects. Don't know what number it would fit on the list.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: henshawe on February 08, 2007, 10:59:15 am
G'Day All,

Like y'all, I defiantly do not want to see this project die a'borning. Having followed this thread from the beginning and seeing the really fine ideas developing to give birth to Outlaw Trails It occurs to me the project has reached a point where we are in need of some legal advise. Yeah I know, we all want to avoid that 800 lb monster in the parlour, but to be a viable entity we must get our ducks in a row and set up this project on solid legal footing in order to cya all who will actively participate.

I would suggest someone on the development team? Pagan, Lightning, Claire, if y'all have enough on your plates, I would volunteer to make the initial contact with Stewart for info, suggestions legal BS and such, would this help? since he is our resident Attorney, although I don't know his area of specialization in the legal  world, for one of two things. Seek his active participation as counsel of record, or seek his reccommendation to a lawyer who specializes in the area of publishing.

As to start up costs, I am able to offer help in this area when needed. We can discuss this via PM anytime OK?

Yeah George, where ya been bud? I want my books!!!!!! :mellow:

Regards,

Americus
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Joel on February 08, 2007, 11:43:11 am
I'm just sticking my oar in here so you don't think I'm ignoring the conversation.  I don't have anything useful to contribute in terms of business acumen...nothing at all.  I do believe that splitting brainstorming functions up between a committee of independent individuals is probably a recipe for failure.  We need the business folks to do the the business stuff.  Me, I want to help do the writing stuff.

edited to add:
I'm also a pretty good copy editor.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: PintofStout on February 08, 2007, 12:16:47 pm

5.
Quote
If some members want to be particularly good members and buy several memberships for the purpose of having a surplus of books for which to sell, that would be ok, too.

That would help distribution for sure, but it could (tho’ not necessarily) get out of control, and take income away from our own known distributors.
I feel a weakness here, but can’t put my finger on it right now.


By several memberships I was referring to basically buying books individually or buying the number of memberships needed to get the desired amount of books.

As far as binding goes, it seems pretty easy and as time consuming as it takes for glue to setup: http://www.gigabooks.net/.  The only supplies needed are glue (available at hardware stores), paper (the actual book) and a cover (which I gather is a special material).

I was looking into the publishing stuff to have an avenue if I ever produced anything, but mainly as a business venture to publish others.  I was going to offer editing for a per page fee, layout, copyrighting, and an ISBN number and print-on-demand.  As usual the current real job flared up and jealously took all my time and thought until I forgot about it.

Thinking about the cash issue, OT can simply sell books to people who want to distribute them.  Perhaps several new book distributors will be born independently from OT as a result of OT.  Everything within OT will require a mole of sorts and a plan for maintaining privacy of writers.  With a proper mole the institution holding the money has no reason for suspicion.  Being a private club may alleviate some tax and income issues for outside observers.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: PintofStout on February 08, 2007, 12:26:52 pm
It looks like the best set up so far is a hub and spoke like set up.  A central body known as Outlaw Trails is the hub, made up of investors and editorial/management staff.  They decide what to produce.  They also decide who they will contract for the work (writing, editing, layout, printing, binding - the spokes) and how to pay them.  The hub then sells a finished product directly to people via print-on-demand and perhaps a bulk price to distributors looking to pedal the books.

If someone makes themselves available for more than one spoke task, that is fine.  Members of the Hub would also likely be spokes themselves.  People are paid for their work at an agreed upon amount between the hub and the spoke.  The mole responsible for the safe keeping of money would have to be part of the hub since they will be the public face of any business visible to the public. (Just thought maybe Iceberg Inc would be funny because there is so much more than meets the eye!  :ph34r:).
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: PintofStout on February 08, 2007, 12:38:16 pm
For the Anthology of Freedom Writers (Outlaws Almanac?) I could write a little bio of Edward Abbey.  I don't think his stuff is in the public domain, but maybe just excepts like a book review may have.  At the very least it could be an introduction to the author and offer suggested reading.  I am currently in possession of, I believe, all of his published works and could glean a good biography and anthology of recommended work.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on February 08, 2007, 01:45:38 pm
Henshawe:
Quote
I would suggest someone on the development team? Pagan, Lightning, Claire, if y'all have enough on your plates, I would volunteer to make the initial contact with Stewart for info, suggestions legal BS and such, would this help? since he is our resident Attorney, although I don't know his area of specialization in the legal  world, for one of two things. Seek his active participation as counsel of record, or seek his reccommendation to a lawyer who specializes in the area of publishing.

I definitely think we need some advice – at least someone to tell us if we’re floundering in the right direction.
We need to know if what we’re planning is feasible – without drawing flies, so to speak.
We need to know if those flies would have any desire to bite, based on where we want to go.
We need to know if there’s any insect spray we could use to dissuade the flies from being attracted to us in the first place.
The problem with asking a lawyer for advice is, we have no money. Stewart may be willing to speak up here, but that’s as far as we could go right now.

Quote
As to start up costs, I am able to offer help in this area when needed. We can discuss this via PM anytime OK?

Henshawe, that is most generous; I appreciate it and will keep it in mind, as I’m sure the editorial board will.  But... we have nothing at present to show for your trust. For myself, I’d rather see 1) how the cookbook sales perform, and 2) how the other projects shape up, before I go searching for any financial help.

I would like you to contact Stewart, however. And thank you for your offer(s).
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on February 08, 2007, 01:48:52 pm
PintofStout:
Quote
As far as binding goes, it seems pretty easy and as time consuming as it takes for glue to setup: http://www.gigabooks.net/.  The only supplies needed are glue (available at hardware stores), paper (the actual book) and a cover (which I gather is a special material).

Believe me, it ain’t easy! :-)
I’ve done some hand bookbinding, and it takes more than just a little glue and paper. The covers, in a hardback at least, are definitely special materials, as are the linings.

And by the way, if anyone gets an OT binding operation started, I’ll sell what supplies and tools I have, if they’re needed, for $10.00 plus the price of mailing. I’m not sure if a quantity binder would even need any hand binding supplies, or if they use mostly machines. But I have several beautiful book linings, some papers, cover materials, glue, tools, etc – can’t think of it all now, but could make an inventory when/if they’re requested. There’s not much quantity for a big operation, so if it’s NOT needed, I’d like to hold on to it a while longer. OTOH, I probably won’t get around to handbinding much any more, the way things are shaping up here. :-) 

“Iceberg Inc”? That’s good. I only hope we're more than meets the eye; and the eye is not interested in chipping off a little ice.

~
If you have all of Abbey’s works, I for one would like to read a good biography. I had never read him before he died, but after reading about his Death and Burial request (see halfway down at wikipedia)  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Abbey , I did read a couple of things he wrote. Go for it.

Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Claire on February 08, 2007, 02:29:28 pm
Quote
I would suggest someone on the development team? Pagan, Lightning, Claire, if y'all have enough on your plates, I would volunteer to make the initial contact with Stewart for info, suggestions legal BS and such, would this help?

Henshawe, I'm perfectly delighted at anyone stepping up to do anything.

But I must make it clear: I am absolutely NOT on the development team for Outlaw Trail. The venture has my enthusiastic moral support. I'll gladly serve on the editorial advisory board (assuming this merely means vetting potential titles). I'll do some misc things like writing cover blurbs until a better person can be found. But in absolutely no way am I part of business management on this project. Never have been. Never will be.

I'm not a business person. The people who make the fundamental business decisions about Outlaw Trail need to be -- or become -- business people. Me, I just write. And stand on the sidelines cheering those who have the business heads and creativity to launch this venture.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on February 08, 2007, 02:45:09 pm
John DeWitt:
Quote
We need the business folks to do the the business stuff.  Me, I want to help do the writing stuff.

edited to add:
I'm also a pretty good copy editor.

You're hired! :-)
 
As a writer, you're already in place. Keep it up... 

As a copy editor, I may call on you to work in tandem with Dare when we/she gets busy or unavailable. Thanks. 


Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on February 08, 2007, 09:55:13 pm
Pagan,
   What I plan is to purchase books from Outlaw, sell some (hopefully) through a web site, and develop some sub-distributors who also wish to sell Outlaw books. I will be a buffer between Outlaw and the sub-distributors. I will also sell some other books through this arrangement. Real books, eBooks, and audio books. I have several folks in mind already for sub-distributors.
   One reason I will sell other books, is to be able to keep some scrutiny away from Outlaw.

Shorty
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Lightning on February 09, 2007, 09:49:42 am
Holy *cow*, this thread is going gangbusters again!  I'm thrilled to see the interest continuing to burn.  Thank you all for your input and energy!

I've gone back through this thread to see just how big a team we're playing with here.  :thumbsup:

Pagan - Layout editor/designer, senior motivator  :mellow: , and editorial board

Shorty - Distribution and Marketing Manager extraordinaire, songbook writer, poet, storyteller

PintofStout - Business plan and costs research, "front" mole in training, author to be

John DeWitt - Copy editor, author of merit

Henshawe - Legal research with Stewart re structure and privacy methods of the business, possible financial angel

Dare2BFree - Editorial board, proofreader/copy editor

Shevek - Copy editor and possible editorial board, if we can compensate him; potential author

Padre29 - Idea generator, story writer

Velojym - Writer at work

Lewlew - Graphic designer, marketing materials printer

George Potter - Writer of incomparable wildness

UnReconstructed - Audiobook narrator

Lazarus Long - Audio tech consultant

B.W. Richardson - Customer, future author

Kirsten - Customer, content advisor at large

Claire - Editorial board-at-large, much-in-demand author

Lightning - Editor in chief, editorial board, eventual novelist, occasional essayist and article writer


BTW, I can do copy editing/proofreading as well, in the process of editing and compiling manuscripts. 

Pagan, I have to say, you really are the moving spirit behind this whole wonderful endeavor.  I'm taking my inspiration from you while I catch up.  :sunny:

Henshawe, thank you SO much for your offers of help and support.  Yes, if you could chat with Stewart and get some direction from him, that would be just the shot in the arm this project needs right now.

Lewlew, can you do the graphic design to start creating an overall theme or "look" for OT website and paper magazine if we do one?  If so, I'd love to chat with you about that via PM.

How about a webmaster?  Anyone up for that?  I couldn't do a full e-zine on my site - it's just a free blog.  But I'd love to get a site going ASAP...

I've just checked on the domain name outlawtrail.com and it's already taken, along with .net, .org, and .info.  Did someone here register them, or do we need to consider a new name?

FWIW, I do already own the following domain names and would be glad to offer them to the project:
gulchpublications.com
freedomoutlaw.com
freedomoutlaw.net


Now.  I know we're dealing with a lot of heavy stuff at the moment.  There ARE obstacles and challenges and they can be discouraging.  But look at the energy and drive that's being generated here.  I don't care what anyone says - there IS a way to make this work, even if it does mean doing printing and binding by hand and taking orders via snail-mailed cash only.

I have some thoughts on that, that I think might work if we keep things smallish, but I don't know that I should post them publicly at this time.  :ph34r:  Perhaps the interested parties could begin a PM conversation sometime soon.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on February 09, 2007, 10:06:31 am
Quote
Shorty - Distribution and Marketing Manager extraordinaire

Hardly extraordinaire. Who even knows if I can get this idea of mine to work? But, I will definitely try, as I want Outlaw Trail to work.


Unreconstructed, would you be interested in doing audio versions of my Shorty visits Hardyville, and the Finding Too-Tall stories?

Shorty
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Lightning on February 09, 2007, 10:30:20 am
Since Pagan asked a while back about level of time commitment, I wanted to touch on that question.  I'm looking at my personal docket and thinking hard about how all this might work.

It's so flattering to have been nominated to serve in a big capacity on this project.  I'm truly honored, and my usual response in such a situation is to accept.  But, I must admit, I'm also apprehensive about taking on too much, which I often do, and then having to disappoint people later.  That's the last thing I would want to do on a project like this in which I see real value.

There's no way I can put full-time or even half-time into this right now.  I will soon be starting up a new business totally unrelated to writing.  It will allow me some freedom in terms of scheduling, but it will require a lot of attention.  When summer comes, I'll be in a better situation.  Right now, though, I can only manage a couple of evenings a week, more or less.

I'm also thinking about my own writing and other projects.  If I take on the Outlaw endeavor, I would drop my guest editor work at Strike the Root, for one thing, which would free up one evening a week.  But part of me feels like George and JDW - I've got writing I need to do, too, and I don't devote nearly enough time to it even now.

I guess what I'm saying is, I'm torn in two directions right now, and I just wanted to be straight with you all about that.  I don't have any definite answers as yet.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on February 09, 2007, 01:03:09 pm
Welcome Aboard, Lightning!

Thanks for the summary of ‘personnel’; that helps me a lot, as I hadn’t gone back through the thread to total them up.

~
I can work with a rational, freedom-oriented mind, and free spirit. If you’re game, I can spell you whenever needed, if you’re willing to spell me when I’m busy at layout.

My desire is to work with and for Outlaw Trail for the duration.

I’d like to see how far we can take both printed and net magazines. Frankly my interest is in print, however passé it may seem to be. (I’m talking not just books, but a newsletter and pamphleteering.)

I want to see distribution, marketing and circulation manipulated (by us) beyond the political and traditional pale ... totally out of political reach, and totally beyond the ordinary methods currently in operation. I’d like to hear your ideas.

I want OT to be able to allow the writers (including you, Lightning) full access to time and resources to produce to the best of their ability.

If we absolutely cannot use Outlaw Trail (early on we had decided it was available as a publishing name; I hadn’t checked on it as a website), then I think we could use freedomoutlaw, lonewolf (the closest thing is lone-wolf.com, a management company in TX), outlawpublishing (if you want to be tied to ‘publishing’), rebelfire :-) (that’s not available either, I’m sure; JPFO probably has it), or whatever. The purpose and accomplishment is what counts, not the name – though I did wish to honor George’s choice of Outlaw Press as close as possible, and I like ‘outlaw’ myself better than anything else.

Quote
I don't care what anyone says - there IS a way to make this work, even if it does mean doing printing and binding by hand and taking orders via snail-mailed cash only.

I have some thoughts on that, that I think might work if we keep things smallish, but I don't know that I should post them publicly at this time. Perhaps the interested parties could begin a PM conversation sometime soon.

I will PM you; but I'll need to know where to send a file – or a couple – as I can’t attach it to a PM. 

Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Lightning on February 09, 2007, 04:44:44 pm
Pagan, I'll PM you as soon as I finish this post. 

FYI, I'm in total agreement with you about a hard copy magazine.  E-zines are great so long as the internet is still ours...but I believe in the old-fashioned ways too, for building a great library of back issues over time, and I think many of our potential readers would agree.

I was so hoping that you were the one who'd registered the Outlaw Trail domain names.  Anyone else here who can own up...please?
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on February 09, 2007, 04:59:59 pm
Quote
I was so hoping that you were the one who'd registered the Outlaw Trail domain names.  Anyone else here who can own up...please?

I wish!!


This is outlawtrail.net: http://outlawtrail.net/

This is outlawtrail.com: http://www.outlawtrail.com/

This is outlawtrail.org: http://outlawtrail.org/

Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Claire on February 09, 2007, 05:08:45 pm
http://www.outlawtrail.com/ Arabian horses

http://www.outlaw-trail.com/ Owned by some outfit in Germany, but 404 -- not an active web site

http://www.outlawtrail.us/  404 -- Available for registration

http://www.outlawtrail.org  404 -- Owned by someone named Creed Kidd in Utah

With all the .whatevers available now, some variation on Outlaw Trail should still be available as a web site. Rebelfire.com was already taken when Aaron and I published the book, so we went with rebelfirerock.com.

Similarly ...

OutlawTrailPress.com
OutlawPublishing.com
OutlawTrailBooks.com

Haven't checked whether those are available. But there's alway going to be some option ...
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Claire on February 09, 2007, 05:11:39 pm
Afterthought: In fact, given all the variations on plain-vanilla "outlawtrail" already out there, maybe something like outlawtrailbooks.com or outlawtrailpress.com would be more memorable.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Lightning on February 09, 2007, 05:33:34 pm
Thanks, Claire and Pagan.  Didn't have time to do the research on those earlier.  I do know that outlawpublishing.com was taken when I checked today.  But there are possibilities here.

Edited to add:  What do y'all think of outlawtrailmedia.com?
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on February 09, 2007, 05:37:38 pm
Lightning:
Quote
E-zines are great so long as the internet is still ours...but I believe in the old-fashioned ways too, for building a great library of back issues over time, and I think many of our potential readers would agree.

On the subject of 'back issues', it might be possible to convert them to CD's as BHM does.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Lightning on February 09, 2007, 05:52:12 pm
On the subject of 'back issues', it might be possible to convert them to CD's as BHM does.

Yes, that too, of course.  I have the Mother Earth News set myself.  I also like to keep hard copies whenever possible.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on February 09, 2007, 06:04:19 pm
Lightning:
Quote
Edited to add:  What do y'all think of outlawtrailmedia.com?

I like them all, from both of you.  I don't want to cut "trail" because it has so much potential, but could we do something with outlawmedia.com? (That might be the most appropriate, down the line.) Or outlawtrail.us, as Claire mentioned, which IS available?
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Lightning on February 09, 2007, 06:19:57 pm
I like them all, from both of you.  I don't want to cut "trail" because it has so much potential, but could we do something with outlawmedia.com? (That might be the most appropriate, down the line.) Or outlawtrail.us, as Claire mentioned, which IS available?

Outlawmedia.com is already taken.  That's why I searched on outlawtrailmedia.com.  I like the trail part a lot myself.   :mellow:

I was going to buy outlawtrail.us, but they will not allow me to keep my contact info private from the WhoIs database for a .us registration.  And they want to know for what purpose I would be using the name, and whether I'm a US citizen.

But I did just purchase outlawtrailmedia.com.  I think the "media" part sounds really cool.  :-D
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Thunder on February 09, 2007, 08:36:27 pm
But I did just purchase outlawtrailmedia.com.  I think the "media" part sounds really cool.  :-D

More than just sounds cool...it implies that there is more than just books that it does.  TV, movies, podcasts.....
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Claire on February 09, 2007, 08:53:57 pm
But I did just purchase outlawtrailmedia.com.  I think the "media" part sounds really cool.  :-D

Nice bit of initiative, Lightning!

I also like Outlaw Trail Media. Not only because it sounds broader than "Press" or "Books." But because the slick contemporary word "media" rubs so nicely up against the old-westy "outlaw trail."
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: PintofStout on February 09, 2007, 09:00:27 pm
I should make it known that I have never been a business person.  I was only suggesting laying out a solid business structure to see how we had to work within it; trying to put everyone on the same page, so to speak.  That isn't to say I'm not willing to try and help manage that way (and quite confident).  If the role of being a business person mean being a mole, I am happy to do it.

As far as the writing and publishing business goes, again no experience beyond avid being an avid reader.  I could help with copy editing and proofreading when needed.

Like Lightning, I worry about how much time I can devote to this.  If I see this moving beyond an discussion thread to something material, my motivation to find the time will be greatly increased.  In that case OT would displace many, many things in the fight for my time.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: PintofStout on February 09, 2007, 09:16:02 pm
I like the idea for a webzine to get the whole ball rolling for several reasons:
        - we don't need to figure out as much (though still some if outside money changes hands) of the legalities and snoopy state issues
        - We could serialize a few stories, maybe some best of moments from various blogs and perhaps the ClaireFiles, maybe some general commentary essays or columns from OT staff, poetry, whatever.  We could start to serialize the Freedom Authors anthology with smaller pieces.
       - I think it would be a good way to gauge interest - as well as get the word out before great capital is invested
       - It will be an easier start to help build networks of distributors and support people

Just a few thoughts...
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Stewart the Yalie on February 09, 2007, 10:48:00 pm
Hey Y'all,

Americus sent me a message about this, and I just sent him a long-winded, meandering reply, but I just want to say, briefly, that this is a fantastic idea, and I will help in any way I can (though my knowledge of business law/copyright/intellectual property is nearly nil, as I told Americus).  I am a criminal defense/plaintiffs lawyer in a small town in Montana, and my other areas of specialty are constitutional law/national security/gun rights/appellate work, so my area of practice is lightyears away from business law or IP.

However, I just remembered that I have several classmates from law school who DID go the big firm route, and some of them likely have done some IP, and certainly have done corporations, so I may be able to pick their brains. 

Stewart
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Lazarus Long on February 10, 2007, 12:52:10 am
Lazarus Long - Audio tech consultant

Add to that:

Lazarus Long - Audio tech consultant, customer, copy editor (time permitting), occasional jotter.

It seems to me that an essential, foundational step would be to work out and define the business structure and how contributors will get paid (anonymously?). Laying out pay structures and such in advance should avoid subsequent misunderstandings and allow collaborators to remain friends throughout the project(s) and beyond.  There's obviously a lot of energy and enthusiasm here, but less in the way of practical ideas for how to set things up. But: IMHO this particular topic would be better hashed out by the key players over a secure connection, like encrypted email or meat meeting, rather than here on a public board on the internet.

The perfectionist in me would love to volunteer as a copy editor. My young children get first dibs on my time, but time permitting, I would love to help in that respect. I also know one other potential copy editor with less constraints on her time, and beaucoup sympathy for the cause. I could approach her on a piece by piece basis. She's edited stuff for me in the past, and has an eagle eye.

Who knows, maybe I'll submit some scribblings for an Outlaw Trail project. Often I write to subvert, and I care less about getting paid for that stuff than I do to simply help a receptive audience to reevaluate their givens. Wish I could write like Shevek, though. Damn, can he turn the murky waters to glass.

Still, if someone more experienced than me would write the definitive guide to getting paid for anonymous writing, I'll plunk down cash for it.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on February 10, 2007, 06:06:50 am
Lightning:
Quote
I think the "media" part sounds really cool.  :-D

As long as they don't confuse us with Hearst. :-)

So, can we make a triangular logo of the words, Outlaw... Trail... Media, placed around the wolf’s head?  Like this: ̸ _\   
 
~
PintofStout:
Quote
I like the idea for a webzine to get the whole ball rolling for several reasons:
        - we don't need to figure out as much (though still some if outside money changes hands) of the legalities and snoopy state issues
        - We could serialize a few stories, maybe some best of moments from various blogs and perhaps the ClaireFiles, maybe some general commentary essays or columns from OT staff, poetry, whatever.  We could start to serialize the Freedom Authors anthology with smaller pieces.
       - I think it would be a good way to gauge interest - as well as get the word out before great capital is invested
       - It will be an easier start to help build networks of distributors and support people

By George, I think you’ve it! That’s just what we had in mind...

~
Stewart the Yalie:
Quote
... I just want to say, briefly, that this is a fantastic idea, and I will help in any way I can (though my knowledge of business law/copyright/intellectual property is nearly nil, as I told Americus). I am a criminal defense/plaintiffs lawyer in a small town in Montana, and my other areas of specialty are constitutional law/national security/gun rights/appellate work, so my area of practice is lightyears away from business law or IP.

However, I just remembered that I have several classmates from law school who DID go the big firm route, and some of them likely have done some IP, and certainly have done corporations, so I may be able to pick their brains.

Welcome, Stewart.
I for one am delighted just to see your name on this thread. We do need some legal minds here. Don’t know how libertarian your legal friends are, but they’re welcome here too.

We may need to call on you in the future for your expertise (defense/constitutional/appellate law) as well. :-)

~
Lazarus Long:
Quote
There's obviously a lot of energy and enthusiasm here, but less in the way of practical ideas for how to set things up. But: IMHO this particular topic would be better hashed out by the key players over a secure connection, like encrypted email or meat meeting, rather than here on a public board on the internet.

Agreed. I don’t have encryption at the moment (had trouble setting it up on my iMac, and haven’t had time on the PC), but it should be done before very long.

Maybe a Project Meetup is in the offing: one on the East Coast, one on the West Coast; then the two get together by encryption after suggestions have been narrowed down to realistic ideas.

Quote
Who knows, maybe I'll submit some scribblings for an Outlaw Trail project. Often I write to subvert, and I care less about getting paid for that stuff than I do to simply help a receptive audience to reevaluate their givens. Wish I could write like Shevek, though. Damn, can he turn the murky waters to glass.

I wish you would write. Sounds like good pamphleteering material.


Quote
Still, if someone more experienced than me would write the definitive guide to getting paid for anonymous writing, I'll plunk down cash for it.

That sounds like something Shevek could do well.
He hasn’t been around these parts lately. Shevek, where are you? We could definitely sell this particular idea of Lazarus’.
I think a lot of writers, and would-be writers too, would be interested in this guide. It would definitely sell to wannabe self-publishers.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Claire on February 10, 2007, 07:54:18 am
So, can we make a triangular logo of the words, Outlaw... Trail... Media, placed around the wolf’s head?  Like this: ̸ _\   
 

That's up to you. But IMHO, the word "Media" doesn't have to be used as an integral part of the logo or with every project. Outlaw Trail Media could be an umbrella name. But Outlaw Trail alone could be part of the logo.

Also, as a simply matter of aesthetics, I don't think that arrangement of words would work well. KISS; keep it to plain old Outlaw Trail on the artwork.

My $.02
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on February 10, 2007, 08:06:43 am
Claire:
Quote
That's up to you. But IMHO, the word "Media" doesn't have to be used as an integral part of the logo or with every project. Outlaw Trail Media could be an umbrella name. But Outlaw Trail alone could be part of the logo.


Good! I thought we'd have to use it ALL, and was trying to come up with something that might work.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Lightning on February 10, 2007, 08:47:23 am
I also like Outlaw Trail Media. Not only because it sounds broader than "Press" or "Books." But because the slick contemporary word "media" rubs so nicely up against the old-westy "outlaw trail."

Eureka!!!  Thank you!!!  You put into words the ineffable response I had to the name.  :notworthy:  It just rings somehow.  Thunder and I both zeroed in on it among the choices that were available.

We can use outlawtrailmedia.com as an umbrella URL for the planned site, and if the intended magazine/e-zine is to be titled The Freedom Outlaw, as Pagan suggested, we could then use freedomoutlaw.com to point to the main site as well.  However, I'm rather enamored with "Outlaw Trail" as a name for the 'zines.  It has an ambling, storytelling, settle-down-for-a-good-read feel to it.

Good! I thought we'd have to use it ALL, and was trying to come up with something that might work.

Good indeed.  The "media" part is just the "official" aspect.  The great thing is that we can still keep that wonderful Outlaw Trail name.  (And I still lean toward an oval shape - the triangle doesn't seem nearly as inviting or expressive.)

Pint, Stewart and Lazarus - thanks so much for your ideas and offers!  We seem to be overflowing with really good copy editors.  Now we writers need to be crankin' out some copy to be edited!  So for now, if y'all don't mind, until we have a clear plan, let's keep this within the TCF crew - with the possible exception of legal advice if someone is willing to help us with that. 

Pagan and I both would like to have TCFers be the "go-to guys" on all OT projects, simply for reasons of mutual support and lasting interest.  That said, if anyone's got friends who are fellow travelers, by all means get them to join TCF and get involved!
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on February 10, 2007, 09:02:44 am
I don't think it was me who suggested The Freedom Outlaw.
I do think Outlaw Trail is especially good for the magazine(s), as well as for the books.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Lightning on February 10, 2007, 09:32:40 am
Oh, but indeed, Pagan, I must give you credit where credit is due!   :laugh:

Actually I had thought of a magazine, a paper one (which is indeed vulnerable) but also an e-zine. I thought a good point of takeoff was ... drumroll, please: The Freedom Outlaw!

Anyway, we seem to be in agreement about going with Outlaw Trail instead.  ;)  Cool.   :mellow:  Shiny.  :sunny: 

I'm getting more excited about this by the day!  [does Snoopy dance]
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: PintofStout on February 10, 2007, 09:38:25 am
I have encrypted email but haven't used it for lack of recipient with encryption.  I will set to work on a little ditty about Edward Abbey and perhaps Thoreau after that.  Set a tentative deadline of submittal by, say, March 15 and first issue on April 1?  That will give some time to build some hype, maybe gather a few sponsors, and put the format together.

How many pieces and of what variety will we need?  What will the web layout look like?  Are we making it all free to read or just a part of it?

For content might I suggest perhaps a sampling from the books already in the works (those will be LuLu'd, right?), a nice introduction to Outlaw Trails and what we hope to accomplish, a fresh story or two (a podcast or similar audio work?), maybe a page of one or two poems depending on length, and similar to STR we could include someone's photos (downloadable to paid visitors?).

I'm not sure about layout, but sections of smaller recurring features may be a sidebar while the different stories and larger feature content be the main page.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Lightning on February 10, 2007, 01:26:14 pm
Great ideas, Pint.   :mellow: 

Hang on for the ride, y'all!  The editorial board is working to set up an initial meeting now.  We'll let you know once we come up with some plans. 

In the meantime, the Abbey article sounds very good.  I'd certainly like to know more about him.  So if you're in the mood, go ahead and start scribbling.

Also in the meantime, any other suggestions and ideas are welcomed.   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Wyomiles on February 11, 2007, 11:25:32 am
Howdy all, This sounds really exciting !  I would love to throw my hat in the ring but have no real idea where to start so I will say this. As with everyone else my life outside TCF sometimes takes up a lot of my time but I would like to help with something here as time allows . My personality profiles have always placed me in supportive roles. If I believe in something you will not find anyone more supportive of it.  I used to think I was a writer, used to do artwork, used to be in speach and drama , love to read, not to much of a techie.  So just let me know where you need help and be sure to ask.

The narrator of audio books sounds especially fun to me. Over at FSW we had talked a little about doing a sort of "play", at the next JAM, with one of Bostons works. You know, a group of people take different parts and run with it. Not sure if it will ever happen but might be something TCF could do .Rather than just one "narrator" have several people take parts .  Sort of like the old radio programs.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Maquisard on February 11, 2007, 03:02:28 pm
Greetings, All.  I heartily endorse the notion of creating a formal media enterprise, and Outlaw Trail Media is a good name.  I've actually been writing a book, and thus have been too busy and overburdened to do much more than follow this thread with interest.  But I thought it was time to weigh in, and I do have some practical experience in editing, publishing, and book distribution, so I hope I can add something of value.  Many good ideas have been thrown into the hopper, so much so that I fear it's overwhelming to any TCFer who wants to take this on as a project on behalf of the rest of us.  The main questions in my humble opinion are: 1) do we want to write and publish just among ourselves, and thereby avoid getting enmeshed in the banking and tax system, etc. as almost all of us are predisposed to want?  Or do we want an enterprise that will carry our ideas outside our limited circle in hopes of influencing the broader culture, but knowing that may inevitably open us up to various kinds of potentially unpleasant reactions and entanglements?  For my part, I choose the latter, while looking for ways to work around the entanglements we wish to avoid.  I believe people out there (some people, anyway) are hungry for our ideas.  Outlaw Trail Media could have real impact, and also provide some remuneration.  In other words, we could "do well by doing good." 2)  The many postings implicitly pose the question, where do we start:  An e-book?  Actual print book or books?  Sole author or anthology?  Audio book?  How do we compensate authors, how do we distribute our material, how do we manage the effort, etc.  It is all frankly overwhelming.  I think we need to start with a business plan that lays out the options and steps systematically, and in logical order.  There's a lot of expertise and insight on this Board, but we have to have a systematic way of pulling it all together.  For what it's worth, I volunteer to be part of the effort, with the caveat that my current book and other pursuits of a livelihood have to come first.     
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on February 11, 2007, 04:55:35 pm
Maquisard:
Quote
The main questions in my humble opinion are: 1) do we want to write and publish just among ourselves, and thereby avoid getting enmeshed in the banking and tax system, etc. as almost all of us are predisposed to want? Or do we want an enterprise that will carry our ideas outside our limited circle in hopes of influencing the broader culture, but knowing that may inevitably open us up to various kinds of potentially unpleasant reactions and entanglements?


The answer is Yes! :-) We want both; the real dilemma is how to retain Option A without falling into the pit of Option B.

I think for some of us, we tend to prefer the (forgive the word) ‘conservative’ road and go slowly to our destination, staying away from the pitfalls. It’s worth it to us to keep this away from the controllers of the world.
There are a few who’re willing to take the chances that Option B would open up, in order to educate and elucidate while arriving at (hopefully) success a litte sooner.

Quote
2) The many postings implicitly pose the question, where do we start: An e-book? Actual print book or books? Sole author or anthology? Audio book?

I think we could take on all of the above (though the e-book will be an e-zine). We are progressing toward one printed book (a cookbook), after which the original intention was to proceed toward a one-author anthology. In the meantime, audiobooks can be in the making.

Outlaw Trail is not planning to stop at a one-only author, however.

I see a real potential for education and enlightenment through the anthology book of freedom writers, and I hope very much to develop that. We may have to move piecemeal to get it, however, by serializing some authors until we can compile the anthology.

The anthology might take a while for two reasons: 1) we need money to put out a book of this scope; and 2) we need time. Authors have to sign up, we have to receive what they’re offering, and we have to put it together. It ain’t easy and it ain’t fast.
I don’t believe the authors are ready for this anthology yet. I feel they are (literarily speaking) “milling around”, not knowing what they want to offer or where to turn. They, OTOH, may feel they’re waiting for us to establish something concrete so they know where to go.

I personally think they should “just do it” – just write what they wish (the same as they’ve been doing), and turn it in when it’s finished. Unlike traditional publishers, we don’t tell authors what to do or how to write; we prefer to keep it free — and simple. (But if they do want this anthology to come to fruition, they also better get serious about the writing, and let us know what they have.)

I think Outlaw Trail is an idea whose time has come/is coming soon – but it may seem that authors and OT are now working at cross purposes. They see an opportunity to (finally!) start eating from the sale of their works, while OT, as a business, sees the need to take it slow and steady in order to build a working concern that CAN feed them.

Quote
I think we need to start with a business plan that lays out the options and steps systematically, and in logical order.

A good idea; unfortunately, a business plan presupposes ... a plan for a business; we’re not quite there yet (though it’s gelling fast). And – while attempting to firm up the idea, we’re trying to put out a book. That’s a little more difficult.

Maquisard, if you “have some practical experience in editing, publishing, and book distribution”, we could certainly use your knowledge and expertise – and are thankful for it.

We all have other jobs and understand that obligation too. (Another reason this is moving slowly.)

Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Tahn L. on February 11, 2007, 05:21:30 pm
I second the suggestion of a business plan or plans. They answer a lot of unasked questions.  Do a lot of them. Here is a link (I hope ) to just one.  http://www.midwestbookreview.com/bookbiz/advice/plan.htm
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on February 11, 2007, 05:36:32 pm
Thanks, Tahn.
Actually I have a very good software Business Plan I've been trying to find time to study.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Shevek on February 12, 2007, 02:35:58 pm
Quote
He hasn't been around these parts lately. Shevek, where are you?
I had company the past few days. Apparently I'm not the recluse I or anybody believed me to be! :lol:

Previous to that, I haven't added to this thread because I already stated my primary concerns. I notice a few people have provided additional similar opinions that perhaps the "legal" structure of this operation or a formal business plan ought to be defined before proceeding further, and that was essentially my original proposal. My gist is that a mole is needed, somebody who is already in the system but wants to help the many others who prefer to remain out of the system or at the fringes.

One thing I hope everybody understands is that this mole (by definition) cannot and should not be expected to help paid authors and other contributors from escaping the tax parasites. That battle must be fought by each individual.

The mole who provides these front door services and the legal structure should be expected to play the game more or less by the "rules" established by the parasites. That might very well mean issuing 1099s to paid authors, and that is one reason why I suggested a consignment model rather than a royalties model. The latter model is fraught with paper trail challenges that the mole probably cannot avoid. The consignment area is far more gray.

Even if the mole was audited and got fined the statutory $50 for not filing 1099s (the last I looked this was the maximum "penalty" for not filing a 1099), the mole could go years with not filing 1099s under the consignment model. But potential authors must understand that if the mole got audited by the parasites, the mole might then be required to disclose information that leads to authors who prefer to remain out of sight and out of mind. The consignment model provides more possibilities, but is not a guarantee. All authors who desire remuneration should understand that.

Understand too that any POD (print on demand) provider contracted in this arrangement likely will issue 1099s. I'm not saying all POD providers do this, but most likely will. Those book sales will be reported as royalties. At least, this is how I understand the lulu.com contract, the last time I looked.

If all authors who participate in this operation are not remunerated in any way, then I think a not-for-profit "legal" entity might suffice. That type of operation would also preclude a lot of the paper trail challenges.

One option that just occurred to me, is that authors who prefer some form of remuneration for their labors could use Outlaw Trail Media as a portal or stepping stone to their work. For example, book authors could publish excerpts of their books in the monthly web zine, and the web zine would then provide links to the actual book, which customers could order. Those book orders would be between the customer and the author, which would alleviate Outlaw Trail Media from those cranky banking and tax problems. Similarly, authors could contribute excerpts to various anthologies, and in those anthologies would be links and references to the full work from which the excerpt was derived---hopefully providing each author some revenue indirectly.

As I mentioned, I can provide writing projects, or proofreading and copy editing, and I also can easily massage text into PDF format, which POD providers need to print documents. My book and article templates are in MS Word, and although that format might not sit well philosophically with some people, a majority of the people who own computers are going to be familiar with Word to one degree or another. Moving that text into my templates is something I can do well, as well as convert into PDF. Thus, the transitional state of the document is irrelevant. Only that final PDF format counts with respect to publishing, either with dead trees or electronically. I also have a template that I use for my web sites to convert MS Word documents to HTML Transitional 4.01. Unlike my book and article templates, I never perfected the HTML conversion template for popular usage, but the template removes probably 96% of the problems one faces when converting Word documents to HTML. I know the remaining shortcomings, but my web sites always validate 100% (clean HTML code) when checked against any validator software.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on February 12, 2007, 09:04:01 pm
Quote
One thing I hope everybody understands is that this mole (by definition) cannot and should not be expected to help paid authors and other contributors from escaping the tax parasites. That battle must be fought by each individual.

Quote
But potential authors must understand that if the mole got audited by the parasites, the mole might then be required to disclose information that leads to authors who prefer to remain out of sight and out of mind. The consignment model provides more possibilities, but is not a guarantee. All authors who desire remuneration should understand that.

I for one have reservations about using a mole because I wouldn’t want to place him in a suspect or compromising position.

The consignment model sounds like a better relationship from both points of view, mole and author.

I would hope that all parties would be aware of the chances they take AND their responsibilities. The fact that the mole is acting in such a capacity... and the author is attempting to stay under the radar, should make both more careful – and aware of each other’s vulnerability.

Quote
Understand too that any POD (print on demand) provider contracted in this arrangement likely will issue 1099s. I'm not saying all POD providers do this, but most likely will. Those book sales will be reported as royalties. At least, this is how I understand the lulu.com contract, the last time I looked.

This is a question I’ve raised in my own mind. Unless we maintain our own POD operation, there’s no way to keep ourselves hidden ultimately.

Quote
One option that just occurred to me, is that authors who prefer some form of remuneration for their labors could use Outlaw Trail Media as a portal or stepping stone to their work. For example, book authors could publish excerpts of their books in the monthly web zine, and the web zine would then provide links to the actual book, which customers could order. Those book orders would be between the customer and the author, which would alleviate Outlaw Trail Media from those cranky banking and tax problems. Similarly, authors could contribute excerpts to various anthologies, and in those anthologies would be links and references to the full work from which the excerpt was derived---hopefully providing each author some revenue indirectly.

Let us think about this a little longer, Shevek. The 'editorial board' has been thinking along similar lines, and may be able to set it up, if authors see the value of it.

Quote
As I mentioned, I can provide writing projects, or proofreading and copy editing, and I also can easily massage text into PDF format, which POD providers need to print documents.

What kind of “writing projects” are you talking about here?
If you mean some writing of your own, then I have to say, “Go for it!” As I mentioned in a previous post, I think writers should get on with it. They need to decide what they want to submit to us and write it.
If you mean other ideas for OT to undertake, or a means to handle some of those mentioned, we’d be very happy to hear about them.

~
Re PDF, I can also convert Word and Publisher files to PDF format, and welcome any author’s manuscript. The ms would have to be previously edited or proofread, however, as I don’t edit.

There are now several copy editors/proofreaders available when authors are ready to submit their ms. From Lightning’s list:
1. Dare2BFree - Editorial board, official editor and proofreader 
2. John DeWitt, copy editor
3. Shevek – copy editor, proofreader
4. Lightning - Editor in chief, editorial board, editor/proofreader in the process of editing for mss.

~
On a similar subject, we need a copywriter, one who can write copy for the front or back covers, for advertising/marketing purposes. This is specialty writing, NOT the same as copy editing.
Claire has agreed to do some of this till we find her replacement; but we are looking for a “permanent” copywriter -- someone who can sell the books, audiobooks, magazines or whatever, to our readership. We are not only selling products, but we are selling freedom -- and the copy should reflect that.

Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on February 12, 2007, 10:33:10 pm
Ok. A question. What do you folks in lay-out need? And in what format can I send it?
Do you need the manuscript prepared exactly as intended? Including Table of Contents? Title page? Copyright notice (if desired)? What sizes? Will 6 x 9 work?

I am preparing a Shorty Dawkins Songbook. (Lyrics only. MP3s on a CD to be included.) I am finding it might be a little short, but I am thinking of including some Tall Tales and Stories. Also the Our Town page. Thoughts?

Shorty
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Pagan on February 13, 2007, 08:29:30 am
Shorty:
Quote
Ok. A question. What do you folks in lay-out need? And in what format can I send it?

Do you need the manuscript prepared exactly as intended? Including Table of Contents? Title page? Copyright notice (if desired)? What sizes? Will 6 x 9 work?

I am preparing a Shorty Dawkins Songbook. (Lyrics only. MP3s on a CD to be included.) I am finding it might be a little short, but I am thinking of including some Tall Tales and Stories. Also the Our Town page. Thoughts?

Format: Word, Rich Text Format, or something that converts. Am not sure if Linux is recognized. Appleworks can be saved in Word; OTOH, Word doesn’t recognize Appleworks by itself.)

Manuscript preparation: No, it doesn’t need to be “exactly as intended”. I can and will put in a TOC, Title Page, and Copyright notice. I do ask that you tell me if you have any preferences in setup (in what order you'd like the material, etc -- i.e. if you care), or any special wording you want. If what you ask is too complicated or irrational, or if it doesn't work -- I’ll let you know. Also you need to send any Dedication, Acknowledgements, Footnotes or Endnotes, etc. you want, and I’ll include them on their respective pages.     

Size: Depends on what you offer. 6 x 9 will work ordinarily, and is satisfactory for most non-fiction, fiction and poetry/songs. 8 x 10 generally works well for manuals (as does 8.5 x 11). Unless you have graphics or tables that need to be fitted or resized for legibility, you don’t have to worry about size of the page.

However, yours may be different. I’d prefer to set it up in somewhat larger size, say 7.5 x 9 (or even 8 x 10):
a) It would need a pocket to include a CD.
b) It would give room for musicians to make notes (musical or written), or perhaps any sidebar/liner notes from you alongside the song – which would save using footnotes, and make your thoughts more immediate to the song.

Shorty Dawkins Songbook: My initial thought is, if it’s called a Songbook, it should remain that – without expanding into prose, except for liner notes.
If it’s “Songs and Tales by Shorty Dawkins”, you could put it all in one book.
(I can see this selling in remote areas of, say, the Appalachians or the Smoky Mountains – they’d love you, rebel spirits that they are! Hell, you could even introduce them to Hardyville.)

Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: ShortyDawkins on February 13, 2007, 08:42:11 am
Thanks, Pagan.
Title: Re: Outlaw Press
Post by: Dare2BFree on February 13, 2007, 09:20:53 am
Format: Word, Rich Text Format, or something that converts. Am not sure if Linux is recognized. Appleworks can be saved in Word; OTOH, Word doesn’t recognize Appleworks by itself.)

If anyone uses Linux with OpenOffice, that can be saved into a .doc or .rtf as well.  It should not have any more issues than Word in getting it into a .pdf form.

Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: Tahn L. on March 12, 2007, 11:11:07 am
This concept keeps popping up in my mind so I need to pass it on.

  I presume that printing "bumper stickers" is a fairly easy thing to do (if you have the right printer) and was thinking that perhaps you might use them as a method of raising a little cash.

  If you had a thread, that was ONLY for a slogan that the poster wanted on a bumpersticker, AND everyone who posted a slogan would agree to purchase one Bumper sticker, at say $20. or so each, AND when they listed the slogan on the thread, they were giving ALL rights to "Outlaw", maybe this would benefit everyone.

 Just trying to think of a quick easy method for a little quick income.
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: Lightning on March 12, 2007, 04:58:36 pm
Thanks, Tahn, for the idea.  Perhaps we could put it to good use at some point!

The financial and business ins-and-outs are, frankly, the very stumbling block we've been dealing with.  I apologize for not updating this thread sooner, it's just that even though Pagan and Dare2 and I have been batting ideas around, there isn't anything definite to offer as yet. 

We're working on it slowly, cautiously, hoping not to make mistakes that might mean trouble or upset in the future.  So, as I think I said before in this thread, any and all ideas and input are welcomed.
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: planetaryjim on March 13, 2007, 04:21:49 pm
Dear Friends,

My good friend Wyomiles pointed me at this thread.  Let me throw my second best Stetson hat into the ring, though it is, admittedly, rather badly in need of re-blocking.

Here are the things that I would wish to set upon the table.  Cards, as it were, some of which may seem to be trumps, others all played out.

First, and perhaps foremost, I am now increasingly deeply ensconced in a network of Wall Street financiers who, for whatever reasons, almost certainly a lack of either discernment or taste, seem to like me, my ideas, and my writing style.  It happens that I am proving effective in some capacities, and if I'm not very much mistaken, tomorrow a small subset of us cut loose on the very close order of 2 to the 24th power dollars.

Two, as a result of item the first, above, it appears certain that our closing on store locations in Houston, Texas; near Kansas City, KS; in Cheyenne, Casper, and Gillette, Wyoming; in Winchester and Manchester, New Hampshire; in Lincolnton and Charlotte, North Carolina; and near Cumming, Georgia during this calendar year is certain at this point.  I would anticipate going national next year and global the year after.  The focus of these stores is privacy services, especially computer systems with encrypted root hard drives, computer networking systems and services including EVOIP, and contract programming and consulting services.  However, I believe that a necessary adjunct would be good books on privacy, freedom, and alternative thinking, and I have the authority to make that inclusion in our product mix.  So, I believe I've got a good distribution channel available to all y'all.

Three, I've written several hundred business plans.  I'm happy to supply an outline or some other clues.  I'm eager to review any plan you folks create.  I'm now in a position to find financing for good, serious plans.  This point applies to plans in real estate, high tech, gambling, other vices, and theme parks as well as to publishing.

Four, I have a small amount of experience at publishing books, including two perfect bound books and several dozen spiral bound books.  I've got decent contacts in printing and engraving, and limited connections to binderies. 

Fifth, for some time I've been working with a group of technologists on an eBook reader which is designed to include every book ever written prior to whatever the copyright limitation currently is. 

Sixth, and finally, I've ambition to turn the three years of Indomitus Reports over to some competent editor to be worked into a small book.  I've no time to do it myself, though.

Please feel free to contact me here or at one of the other planetaryjim identities that I maintain - mailvault, yahoo, gmail.  Or golddollarranch@hushmail.com.  My regular e-mail address and PGP key are available upon request. 

Sadly, my time has been split very broadly of late, so I regret not having spent as much time on TCF as I would like.  And here it is, already a quarter past Claire.   :mellow:

Regards,

Jim
 http://indomitus.net/
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: Lightning on March 14, 2007, 09:45:02 am
Whooof.

I think the breath's been knocked out of me.

Jim, first of all, THANK YOU most sincerely for your many-faceted and very generous offer.  Secondly, warmest congratulations on the growing success of your own endeavors.

From what little I know as yet of your own business pursuits, Outlaw Trail couldn't ask for a more knowledgeable "angel."  I'm honored that you wish to join with us, and humbled (and a little in shock still) as well.

Tell you what - may I get in touch with you shortly?  I'd like to get a bit more clear first on what questions we might have for you, so as to save time, and what our parameters and needs are, short-term and longer.  We are weighing the question of going openly public, in the interests of greater visibility and revenue, vs. remaining small and private for the sake of certain persons who literally wish to remain nameless in certain quarters, or combining the two somehow.   ;)

If you'd like, you're welcome to send any advance thoughts to me at taranjordan at hush dot ai. 

Many, many thanks again.   :mellow:
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: planetaryjim on March 14, 2007, 04:51:04 pm
If you'd like, you're welcome to send any advance thoughts to me at taranjordan at hushmail dot ai. 

Just FYI, hushmail.com bounced that address back.  Hush.ai didn't bounce, so I tried there.
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: Bill St. Clair on March 14, 2007, 08:14:13 pm
planetaryjim's avatar was making the pages with posts from him take minutes to load, so I removed the avatar. If you want to restore it, Jim, and I hope you do, please use the "Upload" feature instead of linking to it on your web site.
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: Lightning on March 14, 2007, 09:24:31 pm
Just FYI, hushmail.com bounced that address back.  Hush.ai didn't bounce, so I tried there.

Jim, I am sorry - my mistake; hush dot ai is correct.  I'll go edit the original post now, and then read your message asap.
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: planetaryjim on March 14, 2007, 10:27:21 pm
If you want to restore it, Jim, and I hope you do, please use the "Upload" feature instead of linking to it on your web site.

I do not.  I don't think I'll be spending much time here, after all.

Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: Lightning on March 15, 2007, 06:27:27 am
If you want to restore it, Jim, and I hope you do, please use the "Upload" feature instead of linking to it on your web site.

I do not.  I don't think I'll be spending much time here, after all.



I see.  Well, Jim, if that's your way, then thanks again, but never mind about the possible financial backing for OT. 

Happy trails to you, sincerely, and it was nice while it lasted.


Edited to add:  Based on a private message planetaryjim sent me, I want to apologize if I've misinterpreted his motives here.  My impression from the above post, and from his exchange with Silver in the money forum, was that he was "flouncing off" in a huff, and would not be a reliable supporter.  I am sorry if I made an error of assumption. 

However, based on some issues he mentioned in that private message, I still do not think it would be wise for OT to accept financial or other support from him at this point in time.  I hope everyone will understand.
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: George Potter on March 16, 2007, 01:02:55 am

Will someone please make this thread sticky? I tried to do it myself, but either don't have that magical mod-power or can't find the button. :P

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: George Potter on March 16, 2007, 03:01:00 pm

Thanks Thumbtack Bunny!  ^_^
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: velojym on March 16, 2007, 07:26:26 pm
Due to my new parental responsibilities, I'll be spending some time at home and may be able to offer some
editing services, depending on what's needed.

As for PJ's offer, it seems generous, but if it's the PJ I remember, his temper and squirrely attitudes would have
me ill at ease.
'Flouncing off in a huff' would be in character, and an attempt to bring folks begging, to stroke his ego a bit.
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: ZooT_aLLures on March 17, 2007, 03:06:24 am
Quote
As for PJ's offer, it seems generous, but if it's the PJ I remember, his temper and squirrely attitudes would have
me ill at ease.
 

That's very observant of you to notice such things.......and even better that you have the ballz to mention them......

Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: velojym on March 17, 2007, 10:51:21 am
Quote
As for PJ's offer, it seems generous, but if it's the PJ I remember, his temper and squirrely attitudes would have
me ill at ease.
 

That's very observant of you to notice such things.......and even better that you have the ballz to mention them......



What'll he do, throw a tantrum... again?
I've dealt with the guy before, got sick of the drama, and ended up just cutting the string. I've had a much better time with the folks here at TCF, a whole lot more open-minded and mostly willing to laugh at themselves.
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: padre29 on March 17, 2007, 08:13:09 pm


Hmm Planetary Jim seems rather mercurial....

Pun unavoidable...

So what is cooking with Outlaw Trail anyway? New ideas or organizational news?

Are submissions supposed to be in PDF format or ?
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: Pagan on March 18, 2007, 02:16:00 pm
Quote
Are submissions supposed to be in PDF format or ?

Please don’t submit to us in PDF. If you want to specify particulars re the layout, type, fonts, sidebars, footnotes, etc., or if you have a preference for size of manuscript for some reason, we’ll try to accommodate you. Otherwise we use our own judgment as to what looks best. After it’s been typeset and proofread, we’ll convert it to PDF as a last step before it goes to the printer.

You may submit to us in Word, Rich Text Format, or something that converts. If you use Appleworks to write, it can be saved in Word.

And Dare has said that, “If anyone uses Linux with OpenOffice, that can be saved into a .doc or .rtf as well.  It should not have any more issues than Word in getting it into a .pdf form.”
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: Roy J. Tellason on March 24, 2007, 12:17:36 pm
Wow.

This thread is another one of those that makes it worth my while being in here...   :-)

I can offer some support to this in terms of technical matters.  I have a rather extensive background in audio,  for example,  and would also be interested in web stuff,  if any of that is needed.

Maybe a bit on the distribution side?  Not where I'd buy/resell,  I flat-out can't afford to do that,  but in terms of the actual physical process?
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: Pagan on March 24, 2007, 06:12:06 pm
Hi Roy,

Glad to hear from you. And thanks for offering. Marketing and distribution are thin till we can gel up some ideas. You'll need to ask Lightning about help on the website. Talk to us here, or PM either Lightning, Dare, or me.


Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: Roy J. Tellason on March 25, 2007, 03:27:27 pm
Hi Roy,

Glad to hear from you. And thanks for offering. Marketing and distribution are thin till we can gel up some ideas. You'll need to ask Lightning about help on the website. Talk to us here, or PM either Lightning, Dare, or me.


Marketing is _not_ one of my strong points.  I mention distribution mainly because I've spent *way* too much time in recent work history in warehouses doing exactly that.  :-)  I can see how I could handle such a thing on a small scale,  though.  Not on the basis of "wholesaling" though,  where I'd have to buy a bunch of stuff and then sell it,  etc. -- finances simply won't allow such at this point.

I'm getting darn near caught up here,  after logging in initially and finding 137 (!) pages of listings of unread stuff,  by contrast with the first time I ever logged in here,  when there was only about 75 or so pages of "history" to slog through.  Then I need to go deal with the emails that have been piling up.  But tomorrow and onwards I gotta get focused on some more immediate things here,  and deal with 'em.

Lightning should've received an email from me recently, and I have no problem with that address being handed off to anybody else that's involved in this.

Back to the remnants of the pile...  :-)
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: Lightning on March 26, 2007, 10:03:03 am
Lightning should've received an email from me recently, and I have no problem with that address being handed off to anybody else that's involved in this.

 :huh:  I haven't seen any email from you, Roy, having checked several eddresses.  If you can resend it in a PM, that would be great, or to taranjordan AT hush DOT ai.  Thanks!  :)
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: Roy J. Tellason on March 27, 2007, 02:06:19 am
Lightning should've received an email from me recently, and I have no problem with that address being handed off to anybody else that's involved in this.

 :huh:  I haven't seen any email from you, Roy, having checked several eddresses.  If you can resend it in a PM, that would be great, or to taranjordan AT hush DOT ai.  Thanks!  :)

PM sent...
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: Lightning on March 27, 2007, 02:19:05 pm
Look for a reply in your PM box.  :)
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: Roy J. Tellason on March 28, 2007, 02:56:59 am
Look for a reply in your PM box.  :)

Got it,  and replied.

Now,  maybe I can do something in this endeavor?  Heaven only knows what (and they ain't telling me :-),  but I'm sure we can figure something out...
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: George Potter on April 25, 2007, 03:54:42 am

So, has this become shrouded in secrecy or something?
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: Lightning on April 25, 2007, 12:48:57 pm
 :laugh:  Good heavens, no, GP.  Roy was just offering some friendly advice.

The only thing that's shrouded in mystery at this point is when we'll find time to press on with the bigger plans. 

But, as I think (anyway, hope) you all know, OT's initial project - the TCF cookbook - is moving ahead as we speak.  And lookin' good, too.  Gotta get a printing quote from Lewlew here pretty darn soon.
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: George Potter on April 25, 2007, 03:45:42 pm
:P

I was just curious. I didn't mean to refer to the exchange with Roy, in particular.  I just hoped it hadn't died. :)
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: linuxfan on April 28, 2007, 12:51:10 pm
I'll proofread. I may not be much on the imagination side of writing, but I can spot a typo from a mile
away. Same thing with syntax and grammar errors.
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: TooTallDawkins on May 07, 2007, 10:58:03 am
I'll proofread. I may not be much on the imagination side of writing, but I can spot a typo from a mile
away. Same thing with syntax and grammar errors.

That's good to know. I'm a comma fan. In case you haven't noticed, I use more than necessary. It's the result of reading Shakespeare in the original First Folio. Since I first learned about rhetorical vs. grammatical punctuation, I am overwhelmed with commas.

Shorty
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: Joel on May 07, 2007, 01:02:11 pm
I'll proofread. I may not be much on the imagination side of writing, but I can spot a typo from a mile
away. Same thing with syntax and grammar errors.

That's good to know. I'm a comma fan. In case you haven't noticed, I use more than necessary. It's the result of reading Shakespeare in the original First Folio. Since I first learned about rhetorical vs. grammatical punctuation, I am overwhelmed with commas.

Shorty

 :laugh: That's a better excuse than mine.  I just tell folks I picked up a whole bunch wholesale before Y2K, and they're getting past their expiration date so I have to use them up...
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: TooTallDawkins on May 11, 2007, 11:19:53 am
Joel,
  When making excuses, my mother encouraged us to be imaginative.  :laugh:

Shorty
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: PintofStout on July 10, 2007, 03:49:28 pm
Is there still talk of starting with a webzine or anything?  I'll be getting to the Edward Abbey bio pretty soon.

Incidentally, I've been thinking about how to go about a transition from writing for practice to trying to write for profit and, like, a real job.  Any ideas?
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: Pagan on July 10, 2007, 06:17:14 pm
PintofStout:
Quote
Is there still talk of starting with a webzine or anything?  I'll be getting to the Edward Abbey bio pretty soon.

Incidentally, I've been thinking about how to go about a transition from writing for practice to trying to write for profit and, like, a real job.  Any ideas?

Hey, glad you're back.

We're hoping to give some news on the webzine shortly. In any case, start writing; Abbey is a worthy subject!

The OT webzine might be an excellent place to send up trial balloons for establishing a writing career. Though it's still a little bit early for us to be taking ms, anyone interested in serious writing (even if you write humor) might keep us in mind. 


 

Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: George Potter on August 02, 2007, 07:04:59 am

Congrats to Outlaw Trail (and the hardworking folks who made it happen) on their first production:

101+ Things To Cook 'til The Revolution (http://www.lulu.com/content/1064479)!

Pagan, Dare, Thunder, Lightning -- take a well deserved bow! :)

May this be the first of many!

Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: Dare2BFree on August 20, 2007, 07:50:14 pm
I just went through and re-read this entire thread. Wow – what an amazing outpouring of ideas and enthusiasm!

It makes the reason I’m posting here all that more difficult.

As of this morning, the cookbook has sold 23 copies. Symbols Flow, George Potter’s book, is currently being edited and the cover set up. It should be ready for a proof copy in a few weeks. After these are done, Outlaw Trail Media will not go forward with any other projects.

There were many who expressed concerns on how OT would work in reality, most notably Shevek. He is a wise man. Pagan and I have gone over these concerns many times. Some we worked out – those that might work in reality and not just theory. However, there are other issues where we were unable to find a solution that would not compromise someone in some way – specific concerns about taxes, “legality”, those who want to remain ghosts, those who’re willing to be the “public” face of OT and the possible risks they would take. We will not compromise the well-being and anonymity of any freedom outlaw. At the present time, there seems to be no way to protect everyone.

Although OT is not continuing as was previously hoped, both Pagan and I plan on offering our respective services for hire. Look to future posts in the Services Offered thread for more details on how we may help you reach your literary goals.
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: geopotter72 on February 05, 2008, 08:31:27 pm

After a respectful pause to see if Dare or Pagan changed their mind, I happily announce that I'm reclaiming my idea. :D

Outlaw Press will be an imprint for my work, interesting freedom-related public domain reprints, and a welcome home to any TMM writer who'd like to publish under a united front. I'll use either lulu or wordclay for POD services, and any writer who is published will have their own account for revenue purposes.

My main question, I suppose, is if it would be ok for me to use the wolf logo? It was used on the SYMBOLS FLOW title page and never fails to make me smile proudly.

Claire? Would ya mind?

Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: Dare2BFree on February 06, 2008, 05:56:54 am
I have not changed my mind.  Life happens... and right now I have to much stuff going on to even think about OT.  Hell, I want to find time somewhere for my own writing that I have been neglecting for years.

Good luck and best wishes with it.
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: Pagan on February 06, 2008, 07:46:29 am
Go for it, George. I’d be very happy to see the name and/or logo put to freedom’s use; that’s where it belongs!

If there’s any way I can help, please email me.
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: Joel on February 06, 2008, 05:53:02 pm

After a respectful pause to see if Dare or Pagan changed their mind, I happily announce that I'm reclaiming my idea. :D

Well, if you're interested I've got four novels looking for an imprint.
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: Junker on February 06, 2008, 06:28:21 pm
Very cool. I'm a customer.
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: geopotter72 on February 06, 2008, 10:49:47 pm

After a respectful pause to see if Dare or Pagan changed their mind, I happily announce that I'm reclaiming my idea. :D

Well, if you're interested I've got four novels looking for an imprint.

Cool. :) Right now I'm doing some research on the relative merits of lulu vs. wordclay: base price, binding fee and (most importantly) shipping and handling costs. I've been happy with lulu on everything except shipping and handling.

I'll keep you posted, bro. :)
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: geopotter72 on February 22, 2008, 12:42:59 am

OK, after some research I have decided to stick with Lulu. wordclay's s&h was a tiny bit cheaper, but they offered far less options in design, cover art and binding. Also, I am absolutely thrilled with how my book turned out (and THANK YOU once again to Pagan & Dare for their superb work!).

Joel -- I have my brother working on a 'special edition' cover for Songs. I'll send you a jpeg as soon as he's finished messing with it. In simple description:

A man and two children sit by a fire. The man is obviously telling a story. The children are rapt, listening. The flame and smoke rise from the fire and in them is the image of a man with his back turned to the viewer -- in t-shirt, jeans, sunglasses and a ballcap. Strapped to his back is a shotgun. On his hip is a holdtered pistol. His right hand is raised in defiance.

Sound interesting? :D
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: Joel on February 22, 2008, 10:59:12 am
Christ in a cattle car, that's a lot better than the cover pic I've been carrying around in my mind for a year.  Do you have access to anyone who could draw it?  Or are we talking Photoshop?

Dibs on the poster!
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: geopotter72 on February 22, 2008, 03:46:44 pm
Christ in a cattle car, that's a lot better than the cover pic I've been carrying around in my mind for a year.  Do you have access to anyone who could draw it?  Or are we talking Photoshop?

Dibs on the poster!

It'll be drawn in pencil, 'inked' and colored and manipulated in PaintShop Pro or GIMP.

I'll keep you up to date. My brother draws slowly.
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: Pagan on February 22, 2008, 06:30:02 pm
Quote
Dibs on the poster!

Do you know anyone who does good poster work? I'd love to have one of those too!
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: Claire on February 22, 2008, 06:50:07 pm
Quote
Dibs on the poster!

Do you know anyone who does good poster work? I'd love to have one of those too!

One of our former TCFers (and a good friend of mine) has a print shop. She did the Gadsden Girl posters for me last year. I'd be glad to put anybody in touch with her.

And George, my brother, by all means use that logo and publish away!

Claire
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: geopotter72 on February 22, 2008, 07:27:51 pm

And George, my brother, by all means use that logo and publish away!

Claire

Thanks and much obliged! :)
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: Junker on February 22, 2008, 07:36:02 pm
Ahhh...honor among outlaws...good to see.

Reminds me of the old days...the hole-in-bell gang...

Gosh, how I miss it.
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: MsSage on March 17, 2009, 06:12:03 pm
Its been a year since anything has been posted here......Is there a book? If so where to find it?
There are some talented people on here.
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: Joel on March 17, 2009, 06:28:54 pm
Its been a year since anything has been posted here......Is there a book? If so where to find it?
There are some talented people on here.
Technically I don't think it's an Outlaw Trail book, but Symbols Flow (http://www.lulu.com/browse/search.php?search_forum=-1&search_cat=2&show_results=topics&return_chars=200&search_keywords=&keys=&header_search=true&sitesearch=lulu.com&q=&fSearch=Symbols+Flow&fSearchFamily=0&fSubmitSearch.x=0&fSubmitSearch.y=0) did get Lulu-published and is still available.  Great stuff, too.
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: da gooch on March 17, 2009, 08:01:38 pm
Its been a year since anything has been posted here......Is there a book? If so where to find it?
There are some talented people on here.
Technically I don't think it's an Outlaw Trail book, but Symbols Flow (http://www.lulu.com/browse/search.php?search_forum=-1&search_cat=2&show_results=topics&return_chars=200&search_keywords=&keys=&header_search=true&sitesearch=lulu.com&q=&fSearch=Symbols+Flow&fSearchFamily=0&fSubmitSearch.x=0&fSubmitSearch.y=0) did get Lulu-published and is still available.  Great stuff, too.
Symbols Flow is very truly "Great Stuff".
Written by one of our own George Potter.

However MsSage .... Joel has apparently forgotten to put in his own "shameless plug" so in the spirit of helpfulness [commonly called buttinskiness] I will add this.

First you should know that Joel is a very good writer in his own right.
Second he is a long time TCF/TMM gadfly er member and he has created his own blog (http://theultimateanswertokings.blogspot.com/).

{From His blog "The Ultimate Answer To Kings" }

Shameless Plug Time

While you're here,
God said to tell you that
he wants you to buy the
following books immediately.


The Scroll of Jeremiah

The Last Faithful Man

Walt's Gulch

Songs of Bad Men and Good

All of which are by our own Joel Simon [so you'll have the name to use for searching on Lulu] and are available at Lulu.com as well.

Did I mention that I have and have read all of the above and DO heartily recommend them to you ?
I Do so now If I did not before..
Also ....
I just ordered and received notice from Lulu that the Cookbook is still available and my very own personal [no it does not leave the house sorry] copy is being shipped as we speak.  Yay !

So-o-o .... Yes there is a book [several as noted] but Outlaw Trail is sort of back to being GP's project .... I think ?

George are you following this ?  Is Outlaw Trail still up and going ?  Joel ?  Is Pagan still around ?


Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: Junker on March 17, 2009, 08:14:50 pm
Thanks, Gooch. Yours is clearer than mine, but since i wrote it...


Both are fine writers, have good short stories here, and are pub'ed at Lulu.

The Best Of Joel Simon (http://thementalmilitia.com/forums/index.php?topic=14916.0) « 1 2 » "Joel" as poster here.
The Best of George Potter (http://thementalmilitia.com/forums/index.php?topic=11411.0)  « 1 2 ... 6 7 » Uses several nyms here.

Hardyville (http://thementalmilitia.com/forums/index.php?board=5.0) for Claire Wolfe, our TADGOF, but still a fine writer.

For refs/bkrd, see [wiki]Wolfekipedia[/wiki].
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: da gooch on March 17, 2009, 08:31:04 pm
Thanks for the links Junker.

There ya go MsSage.

I'll butt-Out-ski now.

See ya around.

gooch
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: Thunder on March 18, 2009, 03:33:26 am
I just ordered and received notice from Lulu that the Cookbook is still available and my very own personal [no it does not leave the house sorry] copy is being shipped as we speak.  Yay !

I warn you.  The cover art contains blatant references to this forum and has subversive subject matter front and center on it.  I can't be held responsible for any actions you may or may not take once exposed.

 
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: da gooch on March 18, 2009, 08:54:22 am
              WHAT  !


Oh .... That ....
That's no Problem Thunder.
I have some pretty nice photos of the "Secret Survival Food" that I can use to cover the
Tw  er other item.

Now I have to save the pennies I find for an oven.
I'm thinking a solar oven is probably best for me.
[Cheapest to operate over the long run .... and I live, by choice, in the sunbelt]

{He turns and walks back toward his "cave" ....}  squeak, squeak, squeak

Oh BTW ....
Was there an "official" answer about Outlaw Trail ?
More or Less adrift ?
In the middle of a hiatus ?
Just curious ....
I don't mind using Lulu BUT I sure would support an Independent Publisher such as OT. [At least as much as I can ....]

Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: Dare2BFree on March 19, 2009, 01:47:23 pm
Quote
Was there an "official" answer about Outlaw Trail ?

Listen up.. this is about as official as I get...  :rolleyes:

Pagan and I tried to find a way that OT would work and offer protection to the people running it as well as anyone who wanted to publish through it with minimal to no exposure.  Unfortunately, we did not come up with a solution to the problems.  Since neither one of us was a fountain of cash, we decided to move on to other things.  Since Pagan isn't here anymore and I have no interest at this time if someone else wants to do it, feel free.
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: da gooch on March 19, 2009, 10:54:52 pm
Quote
Was there an "official" answer about Outlaw Trail ?

Listen up.. this is about as official as I get...  :rolleyes:

Pagan and I tried to find a way that OT would work and offer protection to the people running it as well as anyone who wanted to publish through it with minimal to no exposure.  Unfortunately, we did not come up with a solution to the problems.  Since neither one of us was a fountain of cash, we decided to move on to other things.  Since Pagan isn't here anymore and I have no interest at this time if someone else wants to do it, feel free.

Thanks Dare2.

I hope I didn't ruffle any feathers there.  I sure didn't mean to .... If I did.
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: Dare2BFree on March 20, 2009, 06:56:40 am
Sorry gooch. No ruffled feathers here... apparently just my poor attempt at humor.  I'm going back to my dungeon now  :lurk:
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: jaaAf on March 28, 2010, 10:57:27 pm
Just curious what the final logo for Outlaw Trail books looked like, the original links point to a non-active domain. I actually read through all 19 pages and can appreciate the enthusiasm, ability, and plain hard work that went into the attempt to develop a formal movement imprimatur. Who knows, there are a myriad of possibilities and maybe some day some thing will still evolve from the original vision.

jaaAf
Title: Re: Outlaw Trail
Post by: padre29 on April 02, 2010, 09:58:19 pm
Just curious what the final logo for Outlaw Trail books looked like, the original links point to a non-active domain. I actually read through all 19 pages and can appreciate the enthusiasm, ability, and plain hard work that went into the attempt to develop a formal movement imprimatur. Who knows, there are a myriad of possibilities and maybe some day some thing will still evolve from the original vision.

jaaAf

Well, it is what it is, Outlaw Trail just never got off of the ground, I will say that the Writer's Block forum has some wonderfully rich prose and is very well read, but translating that to a business model just failed to launch.