The Mental Militia Forums

Activism Tactics => The Mole => Topic started by: slidemansailor on December 03, 2006, 08:39:48 pm

Title: planning for TSHTF
Post by: slidemansailor on December 03, 2006, 08:39:48 pm
Let's say the US and world economy tanks  (if you don't see the precipice, open your eyes).

The politicians want to continue to leech. They make up smooth BS to keep the great middle slaving for them.
The court advisors (gov't school professors) want to continue leeching. They make up nice numbers and theories supporting the ruling elite - and their own full tummies.
The welfare/social security recipients wanna continue leeching. They chant "Amen" to the above.
The great middle doesn't wanna be cast out unprotected, so they do as told, believe all, deny truth, etc.
The palace guard is happy to kick, shoot, stomp and otherwise abuse as long as they are granted license and given an occasionaly shiny medal.

There may be some I overlooked, but there is THE ENEMY.
Who are the fighters, and who are their friends?  (As an aside, it only takes about 3% of the former and 10% of the latter.)

Now I drag in another thread on this forum regarding personality types as defined by: http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes1.htm.

The "Masterminds" (Introverted iNtuitive Thinking Judging) though rare, are heavily represented in this forum.  Obviously they are going to work for liberty. 

Who do we work with?
How do we find them?

I think this personality typing is the key.  Define your market.  Target your market. 

Get ready, cuz it's coming soon. Or find Gault's Gulch ...  but I'm thinking we can win this one from the outside (remote spaces) in (population centers)... or, if at least the remote spaces remain free, I'm cool with that... assuming mine is remote enough.

So what I am asking here is for help in defining the market for libertarian ideas.  I know my ENFJ wife is a strong teammate.  Can we count on all ENFJ's? 
Maybe all Thinkers? 
How would we target-market that group?
Maybe there is another way to select our target market.

We better get started.


As an aside, I had the horrible thought tonight that my wife's son is a happy member of the palace guard "sorry, Mom, I had to shoot your husband".  While I am ... who I am  "Sorry, Hon, I hadda shoot your son".  This is a particularly icky thought, but awfully possible - Has the book already been written?  If not, get busy, Claire.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Ponce on December 06, 2006, 08:50:35 pm
I like your way of thinking........ sorry to say that I live in a Micky Mouse town where most everyone is on drugs........ already have a 10 feet wire fence on two sides of my home and the 4X4X10 are already up on the other two side and ready for the wire.

If I am left alone I can make it with no problem for the next 25 years and if not....... well, will see.  ........ it will be me or them.

The word "survivalist" means exactly that ......to survive...... to survive while others die.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: DrillSgtK on December 20, 2006, 01:41:33 pm
Don't forget to mind your mindset.

One of the local LP activists here use to go on and on about his readiness for TSHTF. Till his company moved to another state. He was to tied to here to leave, and did not see this as a survivalist opportunity. he applied for unemployment, have hartedly looked for work, lost his house, and had his three cars repo'ed. He stopped coming to meetings after a few people offered to hire him for some part time work (cash of course), and stopped talking to his friends. He ended up filling for bankruptcy and moving to the state that his old job went to.

He had the mindset of total collapse, but not a personal TSHTF situation. I've looked at my life and see I need to make several changes if i'm going to be ready for TSHTF.

The sad part is he had a network of supporting people. All he had to do was accept their offers and help. One change i made in my mind was that if I lost my job and a LP member offered to pay me to mow their lawn with their mower I would. Before seeing this example i would have been to proud to accept a "demeaning" offer. (I'm not sure I could accept out right cash gifts because i'm out of work, I could if it was due to illness. strange how the mind works. Another mind set I need to work on.)

I am seeking friends to stand with when TSHTF, either personal or nationally. I am also doing a lot of navel gazing to see if I can accept help. In the mean time I am working at making sure I don't just shake my head and say "oh, that sux man", but offer to help. It's what I believe  but don't always practices. "You can get everything in life you want if you just help enough people to get what they want" (Zig Zegler I think)
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Rarick on December 21, 2006, 12:31:29 pm
Set up your network and use it.  That means everyday life I remember trade and barter was a constant thing around the lumber oriented town I grew up in.  My family had a farm and we grew X-mas trees for the cash crop for the "extras" or manufacured necessities.  The rest we either grew, or bartered for if we could not provide it ourselves.  We did not have a hay baler, but our field generally produced a 10 ton overage from what we needed for our "table" herd.  We also needed milk- no milk cow.  the folks with the hay baler had horses and needed 4 tons, so there is a trade.  The dairy farm 8 miles down the road could use the other 6 tons.  We got the stuff baled, and delivered it.  In return our milk was delivered 2 gallons a week by the diary farm kids, mom waited with us for the school bus on mon. and thurs.to take the milk up to the house.  The school bus driver liked cucumbers but lived in an apartment in town........

The bus driver was an old vetran who was missing 3 fingers on his left hand and had some scars from the same incident.  Everyone tended to give him a lot of respect.  The bus company paid him barely enough for rent and electricity, but he had the "farm kid" route, so he ate well.  I learned that people with nasty scars are not scary and evil, but regular folks who got "bitten by life" and how a community makes things work and not necessarily by paying money.

reading the last few posts kind of brought all that to mind.  Money is good, but goodwill and a sense of making things work out are what really is worthwhile.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: dogsledder54 on March 07, 2007, 08:23:06 pm
Great post, Rarick. (please excuse the tardiness of my reply, but I've been off the web for awhile, and am just catching up on my reading).
great ideas, but more importantly, it shows a great spirit which we could all learn from. Thanks.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Bear on March 07, 2007, 10:02:45 pm
Quote
He had the mindset of total collapse, but not a personal TSHTF situation. I've looked at my life and see I need to make several changes if i'm going to be ready for TSHTF.

Bingo! That is a real easy trap to fall into. I wish I could put that in front of more people and have them think about it.


Quote
The sad part is he had a network of supporting people. All he had to do was accept their offers and help. One change i made in my mind was that if I lost my job and a LP member offered to pay me to mow their lawn with their mower I would. Before seeing this example i would have been to proud to accept a "demeaning" offer. (I'm not sure I could accept out right cash gifts because i'm out of work, I could if it was due to illness. strange how the mind works. Another mind set I need to work on.)

I nearly ended up like your friend once, and I would do things waaaaaay differently if I ever was there again.
One thing that I learned afterward, is that I did have a support network, but didn't know it. (Or was too proud to admit
that I needed help.)

Bear
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: merlin419 on March 11, 2007, 12:17:21 pm
I have gone thru a personal tshtf and came out bloodied but alive. I always kept a years worth of wages and plenty of food and such on hand. Found out that a years money is no where enough when you owe on your property. Free and clear with some food production makes it easier to get by with a lot less.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Cybergeld on April 12, 2007, 03:22:52 pm
I can't tell you how many people 'offered' help when I had a personal SHTF, but totally disappeared when I accepted. Don't count on them really walking the walk, just cause they talk the talk!
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Dwight_Jokem on May 09, 2007, 12:52:44 am

 I don't think it will have much to do with the world economy or the national economy, or jobs. I think it will be something else. Some new law or constellation of laws, maybe. Something you just can't live with.

 Unless you only mean a personal TSHTF situation, like losing your job or getting into a lot of debt you can't pay or some other kind of financial jam. We do all need to be careful about things like that, no matter what out politics.

 Dwight
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: DGallandro on May 14, 2007, 10:43:48 am
Quote
(Or was too proud to admit
that I needed help.)

This is exactly what happened to me during my first crisis.  I was part of a survival board, and I would pour out what was really happening on the board, while maintaining the "I'm doing just fine, don't worry about me" in telephone and personal conversations.  The outcome was that those who were prepared to help me got mixed signals, figured I was jerking their chain, and turned their collective backs on me.  While I am bitter at their response, I understand it.

The next time it happened, I had a local network of like-minded individuals who not only know me well enough to see through this even if I try to put up a "brave front" but also are close enough to me that I can trust them with the reality of my situation (mostly self-inflicted, unfortunately.  I'm my own worst enemy.) and they can (and did) help me.

Having like-minded friends of the "real friends" variety has helped me greatly.  Do not discount them.  Going it alone can be done, but it's harder on you and its aftereffects will be felt in ways you may not forsee.

DG
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: smokestone52 on May 13, 2008, 07:02:03 pm
For several years my dear wife thought I was a nut case, because I had devised a SHTF plan. I countiue to up date my SHTF plans. I live in a city that when SHTF this city will tear itself to ribbons. If the city is not destroyed, the key is to get out, and get out fast, like be the first one out, because, a little time goes by and nobody is going anywhere. Fortunatly my dear wife, seeing how crazy this world has become, is getting real interested in my plan. I have several people in a network now, and by golly I think we have a bit of a chance when it happens. And believe you me it is going to happen.

Great site, lots of good info. Glad I found ya all!
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Shanks Mare on May 17, 2008, 06:55:37 pm
Smokestone52, I can't think of any major city that won't have a similar problem. Imagine what will happen when the water gets turned off, or the electricity. 

Dwight_Jokem, I think many of those laws are already on the books. Each as an individual isn't much, but all together they are amounting to some big trouble, with the loss of multiple rights as individuals.  Possibly we will be seeing the outcome of such laws real soon, or already are, but not relizing it.

Many of us don't do much about each little law, but all together we shall all be regretful. We forget too easily.

Personaly, I'm not above a little help, nor above helping others, which I do very much although I never seem to ask for much help.....I won't sit back and watch my family starve, and will never consider myself above any job that will stave off the wolf.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Secret Six on June 05, 2008, 04:20:11 pm
A Duffle Bag in your back seat of your car filled with clothing, non perishable foods....

Also learn the back roads and other access points just in case the JBT's set up road blocks

A Good Pair of Hiking Boots, A Rain Poncho, and several Army Survival/Boy Scout Manuals will do the trick

A Good Canteen

A Compass

Because the day may come when you'll have to fend for yourself and live off the land ala Daniel Boone
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: slidemansailor on June 05, 2008, 05:45:59 pm
A Duffle Bag in your back seat of your car filled with clothing, non perishable foods....

Also learn the back roads and other access points just in case the JBT's set up road blocks

A Good Pair of Hiking Boots, A Rain Poncho, and several Army Survival/Boy Scout Manuals will do the trick

A Good Canteen

A Compass

Because the day may come when you'll have to fend for yourself and live off the land ala Daniel Boone

That ought to work for a few weeks.  I think I'll stay home with my tools, supplies, friends, neighbors and family. If that stops working I'm really unlikely to survive in the woods with a million others that ran from the cities.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Shanks Mare on June 05, 2008, 07:30:52 pm
No slam to anybody in here....just some advice, and since its from me...not worth much! ;)

How many around here hunt?  If your not a hunter, nor have never hunted, YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO "LIVE" OFF THE LAND. At least, not long.
If TSHTF, it won't be long and EVERYBODY WILL BE LIVING OFF OF THE LAND. The food on the shelves won't last long.

SlideManSailor-You might have to defend yourself from those very same neighbors....but I agree with what you said.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: slidemansailor on June 05, 2008, 07:35:43 pm
Some of the stuff I've stored with the intent on sharing if necessary.
I may have to rent an excavator to expand my compost pit downward.
Mostly I think I'll be a good neighbor and have good neighbors.
Unfortunately we are in limbo and merely hoping the move will come soon.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Rarick on June 06, 2008, 12:35:27 am
A Duffle Bag in your back seat of your car filled with clothing, non perishable foods....

Also learn the back roads and other access points just in case the JBT's set up road blocks

A Good Pair of Hiking Boots, A Rain Poncho, and several Army Survival/Boy Scout Manuals will do the trick

A Good Canteen

A Compass

Because the day may come when you'll have to fend for yourself and live off the land ala Daniel Boone

Learning the back roads is good- but you will need to use them before the herd and TPTB discover them and close them.  It would only take a day or two for the roads to close- another day or so as TPTB start "following the herd" closing routes around the roadblocks. 24-48 hours is what you got before you will have to stay in place.

Yes you have to be prepared to get totally hunter gatherer until you reach "home"  you want to do that as quick as possible so you are able to hold your property against the "smart sheep".   That is the TEOTWAWKI scenario tho"

The personal SHTF is the same coping mechanisms that the herd uses- job search- go to family for a couple of months- Etc.  It is a case of simple "having a bit put by".
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Get Ready on July 12, 2008, 10:55:45 am
No slam to anybody in here....just some advice, and since its from me...not worth much! ;)

How many around here hunt?  If your not a hunter, nor have never hunted, YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO "LIVE" OFF THE LAND. At least, not long.
If TSHTF, it won't be long and EVERYBODY WILL BE LIVING OFF OF THE LAND. The food on the shelves won't last long.

SlideManSailor-You might have to defend yourself from those very same neighbors....but I agree with what you said.

Yes, but most people will not know what to do with an animal, if they manage to kill one. If they kill one, they will wonder when the meat will start falling off and turning into hambuger. ^_^
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: clarence on July 22, 2008, 02:06:10 am
Hello all,

First time poster, long-time lurker.

I didn't seem to be able to create a new thread, so, if you allow me to, I'd like to make a tangent of this one.

I'm seeking opinions from like-minded Patriots, "Self-Sufficiency Ethusiasts", Gun-Nuts, etc... about  possible options in which to take in relation to our deteriorating economic situation here in the U.S.

Basically, I'm relatively a young'n... 20 years old... And after realizing that in any massive SHTF scenario, my lack of social and economic capital... and skills, that I'd be a massive drain and liability for my community and the people I love, I am split in between two possible paths to remedy this:

[1] Become an EMT and eventually a Paramedic. This would allow me to learn a valuable skill and have an essential job in a SHTF scenario, while still maintaining the freedoms of a civilian.

[2] Become a Damage Controlman in the U.S. Coast Guard. Damage Controlmen are the "Jack of All Trades" of the Coast Guard, being taught plumbing, carpentry, welding, CRBNE training, firefighter training, etc. Later on, I would be eligible for Emergency Medical, Technical Rescue and Law Enforcement/Firearms training. The unfortunate part about this is that I really don't have any knowledge about how historically, military personnel have fared in economic downturns.

So that is the basic outline of my situation. Opinions are welcomed and sought. Thank you.

- Gerry

first, welcome to the forums. the forum has a limit on people starting threads to keep spammers off. keep posting and you'll get to start threads.

second, there is a lot of room for discussion here.

third, the idea of getting medical training is always good. and becoming part of your community is a better idea. many places will allow you to get your training without cost to yourself except for the time and effort you put into it.

fourth, avoid the military. again, avoid the military. you may think:" the coast guard isn't the regular military." but, it is and will be used like the standing army when things go south. then you will be under the thumb of those who will not have your best interest anywhere near their minds. or the interests of those they will call on you to fight here in this country.

clarence

Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: cowardly lion on July 22, 2008, 12:49:38 pm
Hello Gerry, and welcome.

I second Clarence's thoughts, on both medical training and avoiding the military.

Any kind of hands-on work you can learn will be useful, and working on human body, esp in emergency situations, is an excellent skill to have.  Other than that, and I don't know your specific environment, but knowledge and experience in electrical, construction, plumbing work, etc, will always be useful.

If you don't want to be a drain, then learn and practice some skills, any skills that would be useful post-SHTF, and if you need ideas, these fora are a good place to begin.

You don't mention your education to the present, or how 'trainable' you are, so it's tough to recommend a specific course of action.  Learn as much as you can about how your community works right now, so when-not-if TSHTF you know where to turn to coordinate resources with needs. 

Drop in on your city- or county-council meetings (or whatever local gov't looks like where you are) and be interested in what they're doing.  Do this several months in a row and you can begin to ask intelligent questions, and they'll begin to recognize you as someone with the smarts to listen to when you have constructive suggestions.  Maybe within a few years (if we have that long) you can run for a position on that board and begin to tack it in the direction of more flexibility and self-reliance in case of emergency.

Find a place to shoot (you *do* shoot, don't you? - If not, find someone who does and get started) and begin taking one or two friends at a time out for a half-hour of plinking at tin cans for fun.  Be sure you emphasize safety and usefulness.

Start building a library of freedom and liberty oriented books, read them and learn how to use their ideas in real-life settings.  Come up with new uses, and share them with this forum and any others you find supportive.  If you don't like to read, there are a number of good series/movies that promote freedom - Firefly, Serenity, V for Vendetta, others.

Again, I don't know your environment, so I don't know how $10/gal gasoline would affect you, but think about that and begin to plan for it.  And remember, it's not just transportation, but groceries and employment that affects.  I'm currently in the automotive supply business, so I'm working on a Plan B right now.



Ooops.  I've kind of gone on for a while, and I may have overstepped your primary question on which path to take, but I got caught up in your fear of being a drain on family and community and addressed that issue.

cl
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: cowardly lion on July 23, 2008, 08:08:02 am
quasi-rebellion is better than no rebellion at all . . . .     :laugh:

cl
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: amagi on July 23, 2008, 09:08:30 am
I wouldn't worry so much about direction as about education.  This TEOTWAWKI thing is taking a long time.  What do you like?  If survivalism is it, try to find a way to make a living that way.  Do you like medicine or think it will be useful?  If you like it, go to nursing school.  It doesn't take very long and I would hope they cover the EMT basics right away.  And nurses always have work. Are you limited to Mcdonalds for work?  Haunt the local library and bookstore.
I have to believe thereare like minded people in North Carolina.  It seems like a hot bed of sorts. :)  Check out meetup.com.  Find some real people. The gun range could be a place to start.  They might need someone to mow the lawn and pick up garbage. Or the bookstore might.

Definitely DON'T join the coast guard.  Maybe in the 80's it was a good idea to get your education, but now we are a nation at war with several other nations.  Don't join up unless you want to go out and kill people, cause that is what you will be trained to do and expected to do.
Good luck to you.  Keep reading.
Check out Niel Stevenson for some role models.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Kwihi on July 25, 2008, 06:18:12 pm

Now I drag in another thread on this forum regarding personality types as defined by: http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes1.htm.

The "Masterminds" (Introverted iNtuitive Thinking Judging) though rare, are heavily represented in this forum.  Obviously they are going to work for liberty. 

Maybe this isn't the place for this post but I just joined this forum today and have been looking over the threads and messages, learning a lot as I wander around.

Found this thread, took the Humanmetrics personality test and am eerily spooked to find that I am an ISTJ personality type.

I guess I have come to the right place.   

Will go back to lurking now. 
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: armedanddangerous on July 27, 2008, 01:57:53 am
If you live in the country, one can learn a lot of really important skills if your get involved in a volunteer fire dept.

They will take anyone interested in learning and give them rescue skills, first responder medical skills, the knowledge to rescue folks stuck in wrecked autos and under collapsed structures and other get out ass out of trouble alive skills.

Here theyre also experts on search and rescue in the backwoods, as well as swift water rescue if a flood comes.

And the best part is, if the dept has its act together and works hard to get funding, all this training is free and you will be able to be equipped with a lot of essential lifesaving gear you might not be able to afford otherwise.

Almost as important is, a VFD is a band of brothers. If you join up, do your part to be a part of the group and make a good impression on the department, they will be there to help if you need it. It is essentially a ready made second family. God forbid if it all hits the fan for a day a week, month or year, the group will probably stick together to protect the community and the property therein.

Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Roy J. Tellason on July 27, 2008, 01:38:24 pm
Since we have a couple of new folks in here,  I'll say something I've said a couple of other times elsewhere -- go and read all those old threads!  You'll get a *much* better idea of what this place is all about,  who the people are that are in here, and stumble across all sorts of good info in the process.

Yeah,  it'll take a while,  but it's worth it.  :-)

(Just my opinion,  for whatever it's worth.)
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: JJ on August 01, 2008, 09:00:25 pm
Okay folks... another first-timer here...one a bit disheartened by some of the comments on this post. I wonder, of those of you warning about joining the military... were any of you enlisted or commissioned in any branch of service. I suspect not, or if you were, you weren't "in" for long. I was, I retired pretty close to as high as you could go and am here to tell you some of the conversations I took part in would scare the bejesus out of the denizens of the 5-sided-cesspool and the garden patch across the Potomac... I'm retired, one of my sons a survivor of Uncle Sam's Misguided Children trips to both war zones, and he reiterated what I heard in my time. I am utterly certain a LARGE portion of the ACTIVE DUTY military would turn on their commanders or ignore any order to go after the civilian populace within the US. Add that to the Guard and Reserve either refusing call-up or turning as well and it would make for another "Great War of Northern Aggression." Yes, they would put bayonets in the streets if ordered, but - and this is a BIG but, they would only go so far.  Ya'll may disagree or I may be wrong, but I'll bet on what I saw, heard, and said. 

For my money, anyone looking for "free" training, education, and experience to apply on the outside SHOULD do a stint in the service. I would avoid the Army or USMC simply based on what others have said was their rationale for seeking the training. The Guard is a no-go simply because of the behind the scenes wheeling and dealing Governors are doing to make deals to their political benefit with THE Gov. On the other hand the Reserves are a good way to get what you're looking for and still live at home. Now, before anyone jumps- take a hard look at just who in the reserves is getting sent to Iraq or Afghanistan.  The vast majority of career fields just don't go, especially with the politically correct draw-down with Nov coming.

I've helped two young folks choose this route. They're both home with their friends with no aspect of going anywhere soon. Oh, one is volunteering for a trip to California to fight the fires- of course, he is a fireman so it figures.

SORRY IF I'M OFF ON A TANGENT HERE, like he said a lurker here who just never had anything to say until now- back to my Lee Turret Press...

On the side I'm and ENFJ..I was an ENFP but I guess we all evolve. I was first administered the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator test when Stormin' Norman was setting up his staffs for the first gulf war.

Whew- I jumped so fast I never even set up a signature block

Raised a wolf-
Now a retired sheep dog – still looking after the Sheeple…
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Bear on August 02, 2008, 12:15:35 am
Quote
I am utterly certain a LARGE portion of the ACTIVE DUTY military would turn on their commanders or ignore any order to go after the civilian populace within the US. Add that to the Guard and Reserve either refusing call-up or turning as well and it would make for another "Great War of Northern Aggression." Yes, they would put bayonets in the streets if ordered, but - and this is a BIG but, they would only go so far.  Ya'll may disagree or I may be wrong, but I'll bet on what I saw, heard, and said.

JJ,

I hope you're right. I really do.

However, if I recall, the 82nd Airborne was called in for Katrina, and went door-to-door disarming law abiding Americans. The young officer in charge
that was interviewed by a reporter had misgivings about the whole operation, but he did follow orders. I can hope that the whole circus gave him food
for thought, so that the next time he's faced with that situation, he will have decided ahead of time where his own personal 'line in the sand' is.

What does a soldier do when there is a conflict between defending the constitution and obeying orders from a superior? If justice is consistent, we see
from the Nurenburg trials after WW2 that "I was just following orders" was not a valid excuse for avoiding responsibility for war crimes then, and won't
be in the future. Is this sort of thing ever discussed formally? What kind of message are the troops getting?

Bear




Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: JJ on August 02, 2008, 12:11:11 pm
Bear I could try and make an arguement about the circumstances surrounding the Katrina debacle, but perception is reality and the curent perception is that all cops and grunts went door-kicking and took everybodys guns and herded them to a crowded dome. Not true, but clearly a common perception and thus there is little you can do to dispell it. It's kind'a like the M16/M4 - 5.56mm stories. There are A LOT of stories, a lot of anecdotal evidence, but very little empirical evidence or proof. Darn few SITREPS  or mission reports showing US or increasingly, friendly Iraqis dying because the round didn't put the bad guy down with one shot. Heck, I was taught to double-tap with an M14. In the Big Easy there were too many PROVEN cases of overzealous obediance to orders - but there were also cases of officers saying 'NO" and NCOs telling civilians to keep their guns outta sight until needed. Moles hey?!

As far as the "I was only following orders-" "defence" goes- I used to do post checks and one of my old favorites was to ask young enlisted and NCOs about the articles of the Code of Conduct. The sixth and final article, drummed into every Soldier, Marine and Airman (ain't sure about Sailors - never was one and wasn't around many to know) from Basic Training through the ranks in professional military education says:

"Article VI

I will never forget that I am an American, fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America."

The Code was specifically written to do two things. 1) Eliminate the feeling captured soldiers must die before divulging anything harmful to the American cause...it just asks you to hold out as long as you can, then 2) it reminds you that no matter what you do, only you are responsible for your actions. Whether they be as a prisoner OR when faced with another My Lai. And I DO mean drummed into their heads... these articles along with the "Standing Orders" are about the first thing young enlistees have to learn in Basic Training... right behind their service number and before their names. On the commissioned side, the Code and the reasons for each of the six articles are discussed, studied, and written about through-out their formal training. I really think the only people who push personal responsibility more are the Germans who are STILL trying to atone for WWII and the things that led to Nurnberg. 

Now I KNOW I'm off on a tangent from the original reason for the post my apoligize to you all, I'll take a pill.

To prepare for TSTHTF personally, I carry concealed (Glock G23 W/3 mags) daily. My wife has her G23 next the bed with 3 and carries a "Pink Lady" in her purse. My M4 with a bug-out ammo pouch is RTG. Her M4 is the same. There's a Shotgun handy with bandolier as needed.  I live rural and raise horses (4WDs run on gas...which will be in short supply after TEOTWAWKI and I'm gettin' to old for shanks mare). My reloading setup is portable being very careful with the primers. By X-mas barring it happening sooner I'll have 1 years supply for 2 stored. We both have bug-out bags in our vehicles that'll give us 3 days with enough at home to go 7-21 days quickly available adjusted for available transport. Along with this is a pioneer kit that is horse transportable. I can pare it down in the event we lose our mounts. My neighbors are mostly farm-types to multiple generations. I suspect I'll be able to trade "services" and reloads for what I can't get if we evac in place (hunker in the bunker). In the event of a long-range bug-out, maps and non-electronic land nav setups are ready to go. NONE of this cost a great deal when bought over time. You can get a nice former Euro-cop 9mm SIG for less than $300 from many sources, freeze dried food is easy to find even in local stores, etc, etc. Anyone want ideas about getting transportable stuff- ask, I'll share all I know. On the the side, one  of my sons thinks I'll loan him a mount to carry his Barrett 50 which ain't happening, BMG ammo is reoadable but HEAVY - although it could deny anything short of regular armor vehicle access up our valley. Always remember...lead can always get you gold- and gold can get you lead, one way or the other. (the Sundance Kid)

Am I crazy... maybe, some tell me so. Crazy like a fox... or an Old Wolf, which was one of my callsigns in a faraway land...

Raised a wolf-
Now a retired sheep dog – still looking after the Sheeple…





Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: vonuvan on August 02, 2008, 12:28:52 pm
It's the same old story, people who really need the job, following orders they know are unlawful.
The problem would be solved by prosecuting and executing those at the top of the hive.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Apple on August 02, 2008, 05:18:25 pm
Since we have a couple of new folks in here,  I'll say something I've said a couple of other times elsewhere -- go and read all those old threads!  You'll get a *much* better idea of what this place is all about,  who the people are that are in here, and stumble across all sorts of good info in the process.

Yeah,  it'll take a while,  but it's worth it.  :-)

(Just my opinion,  for whatever it's worth.)


You know, I'm struggling to keep up as it is. But let's suppose I could double my reading effort. How far does this board go back? 2003? That means it's going to take me 5 years to read it all. "A while", yeah, that's putting it mildly :ph34r:

By the way, I've just tortured myself through the Minarchy vs Anarchy debate (http://thementalmilitia.com/forums/index.php?topic=9158.0). Took me more than a week, and all things considered, I want a refund for my time :ph34r:

Edit: I do recommend the search function. If you have a specific question, it may have been answered already.

End thread jack, we now return to our regularly scheduled programming...
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Bear on August 03, 2008, 11:03:12 am
JJ,

Thanks for the background and the explanation of Article VI.

A question, though -- what happened to those officers and men who refused unlawful orders?
I imagine that there would be some sort of investigation as to whether the refusal was justified.
I can't imagine a military organization taking the refusal of an order lightly.

It puts the officer giving the order in a pickle - either his subordinate is right and he passed along
an order he shouldn't have (embarrassing), or his subordinate is wrong, and has violated the UCMJ.

Since the News Media hasn't reported any stories about this part of the story either way, I'm in
the dark as to what actually has happened. Do you have any anecdotal stories from reliable sources
as to how this turned out?

Bear


Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: vonuvan on August 03, 2008, 11:06:08 am
The military justice machine is as corrupt as the civilian, judging from what happened to Michael New.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: da gooch on August 03, 2008, 11:54:21 am
The military justice machine is as corrupt as the civilian, judging from what happened to Michael New.

For those interested ....

World Net Daily (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=17400)
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: jamie on August 03, 2008, 08:05:03 pm
We won't know for certain how many soldiers  will follow orders until it happens.  I think it depends more on the severity of the depression, semi collapse or whatever it turns out to be. 

I don't think the code of conduct is any more important than the oath to support and defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic.  That didn't work either.

A large part of the military believes any order, other than the obviously wrong ones, ie execute that POW, are lawful and correct because they come from legal superiors and therefore are to be obeyed. They are taught to state their misgivings or whatever and when that is ignored, they have to shut up and soldier. 

For example I think the invasion of Iraq was legally and morally wrong.  But since congress authorized use of force that makes it a legal and even just war for many. I am able to separate " authority" and "law" from what I believe is right. Many others believe that authority and law are all that is required.

J. Glenn Gray wrote a book about WW2 and one of the things I remember from it was that many soldiers turn off their own conscience and follow orders. They give up their moral responsibility. Their thinking is that they personally bear no blame or fault. How could they since they were following orders.


If Nuremberg set an example why aren't bush and cronies,  and most of congress before a court?  Like the Nazi leadership.

Another thing to consider is whatever spin or propaganda effort the military will have.  Ordinary americans will be "terrorists", cowards, oxygen wasters whatever.

There will always be some who go along. Just how many is the question.

I also think to walk the talk is another thing entirely.

I did read a few years ago about the Bundeswehr code.  I thought it was great.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: vonuvan on August 03, 2008, 08:26:27 pm
There are a great many Americans that believe everything they are told by the talking heads on the telescreen, and will turn to those talking heads when nothing else resembling an authority or commander are available. Whoever tells the talking heads what to say under those circumstances will be the purveyor of the gospel for all but a few, by default.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Rarick on August 03, 2008, 08:32:29 pm
Okay folks... another first-timer here...one a bit disheartened by some of the comments on this post. I wonder, of those of you warning about joining the military... were any of you enlisted or commissioned in any branch of service. I suspect not, or if you were, you weren't "in" for long. I was, I retired pretty close to as high as you could go and am here to tell you some of the conversations I took part in would scare the bejesus out of the denizens of the 5-sided-cesspool and the garden patch across the Potomac... I'm retired, one of my sons a survivor of Uncle Sam's Misguided Children trips to both war zones, and he reiterated what I heard in my time. I am utterly certain a LARGE portion of the ACTIVE DUTY military would turn on their commanders or ignore any order to go after the civilian populace within the US. Add that to the Guard and Reserve either refusing call-up or turning as well and it would make for another "Great War of Northern Aggression." Yes, they would put bayonets in the streets if ordered, but - and this is a BIG but, they would only go so far.  Ya'll may disagree or I may be wrong, but I'll bet on what I saw, heard, and said. 

For my money, anyone looking for "free" training, education, and experience to apply on the outside SHOULD do a stint in the service. I would avoid the Army or USMC simply based on what others have said was their rationale for seeking the training. The Guard is a no-go simply because of the behind the scenes wheeling and dealing Governors are doing to make deals to their political benefit with THE Gov. On the other hand the Reserves are a good way to get what you're looking for and still live at home. Now, before anyone jumps- take a hard look at just who in the reserves is getting sent to Iraq or Afghanistan.  The vast majority of career fields just don't go, especially with the politically correct draw-down with Nov coming.

I've helped two young folks choose this route. They're both home with their friends with no aspect of going anywhere soon. Oh, one is volunteering for a trip to California to fight the fires- of course, he is a fireman so it figures.

SORRY IF I'M OFF ON A TANGENT HERE, like he said a lurker here who just never had anything to say until now- back to my Lee Turret Press...

On the side I'm and ENFJ..I was an ENFP but I guess we all evolve. I was first administered the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator test when Stormin' Norman was setting up his staffs for the first gulf war.

Whew- I jumped so fast I never even set up a signature block

Raised a wolf-
Now a retired sheep dog – still looking after the Sheeple…


I had a long stretch in the service.  Your observations match mine, at some point whole units would just walk.  Their logic would be- "this is against the constitution, not bending or flexing it a bit, but totally WRONG.  It is time to become a part of the people- because WE ARE the GOV!".   It has been a while since I left- but I do not think you can get a survivor type you need in the situation in Iraq and still have them totally obedient to TPTB.  They may be willing to do things there that they would never tolerate here- different situations and therefore somewhat different rules.

There are several pros and cons to joining the service ranging from the government will get extensive personal data on you.  Fingerprint and- maybe- DNA on down to hat & shoe size and allergies.  You do get a serious crash course in fitness- tradeskill(s)- independant living (no gas, electricity etc.).  Knowing what I know now I could have got much the same thing from the volunteer fire department someone mentioned.  I would not have had the travel tho'.

Being young, you have an advantage, this is a long term plan that takes time and you have it.  You also have a disadvantage- impatience that results from wanting to get it done NOW.  Make you plan work on 3's set several goals and work on them as you can, when 1 is blocked "for now" you can work on another.

Since you are a reader- look at our reading list.  There are some good titles there both recreational and technical that will help you make INFORMED decisions.  That is the difference between most folks on here and the sheep- the sheep make decisions based on 30sec- 1 minute sound bytes or 1 program.  We generally spend a week or so gathering info on a subject them trying out the skills- preferably with someone who does it for a living- or with some experience.

God- to be 20 with the knowledge I have now..............
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: vonuvan on August 03, 2008, 09:24:56 pm
I suspect that a great many of potential military recruits would avoid the military like the plague if they were given a copy of USMC Major General Smedley D. Butler's "War is a Racket," assuming they are literate.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Rarick on August 03, 2008, 09:52:50 pm
Life is a racket-  figure out yours and use it.   Rackets can return balls in a nice cooperative manner- or smash heads.  It is the choice of the person holding it.  Get out of the racket what you regard as a fair trade.

Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: JJ on August 04, 2008, 09:17:38 pm
Bear,

  I honestly don't know what happened to the 2 I'm utterly certain said no... It appears it was something batallion or above knew would make national headlines and so was quietly "dealt with". Both are still serving officers, whether they'll retire generals remains to be seen. Of the SrNCOs I've spoken to, none will "go public" and none have received disciplinary action... none of them know me all that well and this is to be expected. I was after all, an "alte kamerade" of one of their friends.

  I have witnessed earlier (1990) refusals to do things that aircrew felt was not what they signed up for and know we escorted them to their aircraft and know they took off... whether they actually carried out the missions (2 5-man crews about a month (?) apart) is information I am nor privy to. I know one crew went complaining all the way to the aircraft and the other went stone-faced and silent. Beyond that, I know they both came back alive... When I say "know" I saw it... I led the security detail that "escorted" them to their aircraft.  Neither mission was against the American people or anything so grandiose as world changing events but the incidents serve to "prove" to me both individuals and groups will stand up and say, "No" despite what it means to them or their careers. Meet for a beer for details, I will not provide them herein.

Gerry, Rarick, Vonu, et al - the sad thing is I could be wrong. I had an office mate while on the Air Staff who was an admitted and vocal homophobe. Everything mentioned on the news about gays and lesbians ilicited and response something along the lines of "we oughta line 'em all up and shoot them..." As an avowed libertarian and constitutionalist, I had had enough one fine morning, stopped his rant for the day by quietly saying, "Be careful Randy, you start shooting at "them" and you might be surpirsed whos shooting back. This resulted in two things, less rants from Randy and a persistent rumor I was "in the closet." Randy was a damn good SrNCO- a good leader under fire and in garrison...but would have let his views allow him to follow unlawful and unconstitutional orders. So, I think it will go unit by unit. Rangers will obey, it's their karma... SF and Special Ops as a whole won't. The higher the espirit de corps the more likely they'll follow orders- even bad ones. The bulk of the Air Force will sit it out and so on... as I said earlier, civil war on top of whatever caused the TEOTWAWKI... add this to the mix of 10s of 1000s fleeing cities and....that's why we're talkin'....  in the end Rarick you said it bro- "If I knew then, what I know now..."

Raised a wolf
Now a retired Sheep Dog - still looking after the sheeple
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: OLD TIRED RN on August 12, 2008, 01:06:36 am
Welcome JJ. Hope you'll enjoy your time. Enjoy reading of your military experience.  Take care. RN
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: MamaLiberty on August 12, 2008, 07:39:11 am
Forget nursing school, unless you would enjoy working for the government and shuffling endless paperwork. I retired early because I couldn't stand one more day of kissing government regulation butts via Medicare and all its evil children.

EMT or fireman/rescue sounds like a good idea for a young man who wants to learn skills that will be valuable to his community.

Some books you might consider also:
http://www.javelinpress.com/order.html
Hologram of Liberty - Boston T. Party
Boston's Gun Bible
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: vonuvan on August 12, 2008, 10:54:51 am
Becoming a naturopath wouldn't be a bad idea if medicine attracts you.
That's where medicine was before diseases became pharmaceutical deficiencies.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: MamaLiberty on August 12, 2008, 11:06:52 am
Becoming a naturopath wouldn't be a bad idea if medicine attracts you.
That's where medicine was before diseases became pharmaceutical deficiencies.

That's going to take a great many years and, probably, a lot of money. Doesn't sound like much of an idea for a 20 year old who still doesn't know what he really wants to do. Let's not overwhelm the poor guy.  :rolleyes:

I suspect there isn't really time for someone to start from scratch on this now anyway.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: vonuvan on August 12, 2008, 11:07:37 am
Becoming a naturopath wouldn't be a bad idea if medicine attracts you.
That's where medicine was before diseases became pharmaceutical deficiencies.

That's going to take a great many years and, probably, a lot of money. Doesn't sound like much of an idea for a 20 year old who still doesn't know what he really wants to do. Let's not overwhelm the poor guy.  :rolleyes:

I suspect there isn't really time for someone to start from scratch on this now anyway.

Can be done inexpensively by mail at herbalhealer.com
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: MamaLiberty on August 12, 2008, 11:14:23 am
And worth about as much as a mail order doctorate in chemistry, I'm sure. You don't get that kind of education without many years of hands on experience as well as serious book learning. I've been at it informally for about 30 years and I've just scratched the surface. Please don't trivialize this field!
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: OLD TIRED RN on August 12, 2008, 03:32:24 pm
Forget nursing school, unless you would enjoy working for the government and shuffling endless paperwork. I retired early because I couldn't stand one more day of kissing government regulation butts via Medicare and all its evil children.

EMT or fireman/rescue sounds like a good idea for a young man who wants to learn skills that will be valuable to his community.

Some books you might consider also:
http://www.javelinpress.com/order.html
Hologram of Liberty - Boston T. Party
Boston's Gun Bible

I just want to add my loud AMEN to this post about nursing school.  Government and insurance companies are working night and day to come up with more and More and MORE paperwork type needless time wasting thing to keep the nurse away from the patient and make a "pencil pusher" of them.   I don't have the knowledge or experience that Mama Liberty has in nursing, but I did do it as an RN for 20 years and was a paramedic on a very busy service for 7 of those same 20 years.  I've seen paper work piles growing while demands on the nurse's time grow from the facility, unreasonable families, lazy doctors ( NOT ALL ARE LAZY, but TOO MANY ARE), etc. etc. etc. I mean a nurse now days just about can't win for loosing.  I've seen so many good capable nurses get out of it and do something else as they just couldn't stand it anymore.

The two books by Boston, along with everything else he has written, are very valuable in these times and the even more dangerous time to come.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: vonuvan on August 12, 2008, 06:46:08 pm
And worth about as much as a mail order doctorate in chemistry, I'm sure. You don't get that kind of education without many years of hands on experience as well as serious book learning. I've been at it informally for about 30 years and I've just scratched the surface. Please don't trivialize this field!

I'd never trivialize something as important as real healing versus pharmaceutical symptom elimination, which is what most mainstream practitioners practice, aided and abetted by pharmaceutical salesmen with zero medical training.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Hollywoodgold on August 12, 2008, 11:50:05 pm
Slideman:

You wrote:

"The politicians want to continue to leech. They make up smooth BS to keep the great middle slaving for them.
The court advisors (gov't school professors) want to continue leeching. They make up nice numbers and theories supporting the ruling elite - and their own full tummies.
The welfare/social security recipients wanna continue leeching. They chant "Amen" to the above.
The great middle doesn't wanna be cast out unprotected, so they do as told, believe all, deny truth, etc.
The palace guard is happy to kick, shoot, stomp and otherwise abuse as long as they are granted license and given an occasionaly shiny medal."

The extent to which the Gov. (Fed, State, County, Local)  has come to dominate our nation is daunting. So your above quoted concerns seem likely, in large, to occur. I do differ on the rapidity, or rate of TSHTF's manifestation and the nature of the participants if it does occur. I believe that TSHTF will develop much slower that many on this Forum seem inclined to believe. It is not that I disagree with the fundamental forces causing this entropic  dissolution of civil liberties. Rather I believe it is the complexity of the US and global economy/social/economic structure that will cause a rather long slide. If I am correct, the speed, that is to say a slower one, would likely alter the construct of our social and political environment resulting from "the crash". A growing awareness of Gov. greed and criminality works against their end game. I am aware that Ron Paul has expressed grave concern about the rate, aka damn fast, in which this change is currently occurring. I take that warning with heed and do not permit my preparations to be lulled into complacency by my own thoughts on the dynamics of timing.

The following is an expression of which you might be familiar. It goes, "Markets can remain irrational much longer than most investors can remain solvent". I tend to believe that the forces of power, aka Wizards of the Universe, who control finance, monetary policy and the choices of where the next war(s) will be fought (Google Samuel Prescott Bush), will prolong their grip on the wasting of our patrimony and the burying of our Republic until the last digestable drop of our sweat and tears has been drunk. While to us, the "dis-integration" of our nation/culture appears dire and in imminent collapse, the current bump (last 8-10 years of the Federal Gov. & teh FRB) induced by the gorging of hogs at the trough has been caused by "one of their kind" getting a little carried away with a more than accommodative Congress.

If I am correct, and some time remains (3-8 years at least) before the dissolution of our sovereign nation status is formally offered up to the International Socialists, then time may be on our side. Complacency will not breed an informed People, pain will. The zealousness with which the boiling water has been raised may exceed the tolerance of many of the People. I see this every day, in small ways but growing in frequency. The Wizards have faulted on the side of excess and too many people are now aware of their nature and intent.

I have chosen a small community as my gulch. I believe that we are in large part, a Nation of small communities out of which long range change (reversion) can be accomplished. Last Christmas at a family get together, two distant cousins of mine, one a retired electrician from Chicago and the other, a retired AF E-8, talked openly about the seriousness of our current conditions and the value of gold. Two years ago a local Republican Party Precinct Chairman in my community was unaware that the FRB is a private Cartel sticking it to the American People. He is now stuck, he can't go back, he knows the truth, or at least part of the truth and he is an activist.

I share JJ's view regarding the underlying support of Constitutional law by many in our military. I do not mean to say all, or for that matter most. But enough to make it difficult, and perhaps impossible, for the Wizards to call on them to betray their oaths and core beliefs. The Demographic that supported Ron Paul is very close to a military demographic, meaning young and idealistic and constitutionally patriotic.

I was not in the military but over the last few years had the opportunity to work on projects for military personnel  (Army, Navy & Air Force).  I was encouraged by their strength and sense of loyalty to our Republic. Unlike a foreign war where the bad guy seems "clear", the broad support of an assault on the rights of US citizens seems unlikely to me. The Nazis were clever in their plan's execution in that they chipped away at societies weak spots, European Jews and others. "They" were different and so persecution (really economic exploitation) could take place with the general society choosing to ignore "them" being taken away. It is a very different matter to face your citizens as an armed enforcer than it is to face an "enemy".

Today, the Nation's industrial/civil/ community infrastructure is so vast and dispersed, were the Wizards to come after segments of the population, they would need all hands just to observe and protect the infrastructure from attacks by rebellious citizenry and IMO, would not be able to do so. No, I believe they must keep us as frogs, slowly boiling, till their end game can take place. But the genie is out, the Gordian knot will be untied and the money that has formed the basis of their power and abuse will shrivel and die.

Along the way, I do think there will be pockets of difficulty along the way that will be harbingers. Specific areas will be "hit" like Watts and Detroit in the 60's providing a look see into the MO's that will be preferred. Look for Gov. "relief", aka inflation ala more Katrinas, as the salve with promises of change, responsible Gov. and more salve. When the salve no longer eases the irritant, look for real change. If I am correct, this time will work against them as those of us out of the pot will find it easier to assist those that are still in.

I admit, I am an optimist, actually a Planner, who has always looked to the future so I may be wrong about my timing view.

Anyway, on a lighter note, can anyone offer an opinion of whether an A-3 or an A-4 is a more versatile  in the event I am overly optimistic?

Thanks for asking a valuable question.

BR/DS
INTJ


Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Junker on August 13, 2008, 05:27:02 pm
fyi: INTJ thread (http://thementalmilitia.com/forums/index.php?topic=1040.0)

Good intj-ing, Hollywoodgold.

Ref use of military: Follow the German history...brownshirts, etc. Local oligarchy & their cops are
of interest in that line, and the many wannabe's who feel disregarded.

Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Bear on August 13, 2008, 07:29:18 pm
Quote
Anyway, on a lighter note, can anyone offer an opinion of whether an A-3 or an A-4 is a more versatile  in the event I am overly optimistic?

If can take a quote out of context to give it new meaning...

"I've got one word for you: plastics"

Bear

Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Hollywoodgold on August 13, 2008, 10:34:10 pm
Quote
Anyway, on a lighter note, can anyone offer an opinion of whether an A-3 or an A-4 is a more versatile  in the event I am overly optimistic?

If can take a quote out of context to give it new meaning...

"I've got one word for you: plastics"

Bear



Bear:

For or against?

DS
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Hollywoodgold on August 13, 2008, 11:00:10 pm
fyi: INTJ thread (http://thementalmilitia.com/forums/index.php?topic=1040.0)

Good intj-ing, Hollywoodgold.

Ref use of military: Follow the German history...brownshirts, etc. Local oligarchy & their cops are
of interest in that line, and the many wannabe's who feel disregarded.



Junker:

If I follow your thought(s) correctly, the notion is that we are expressing a similar pattern as post Wilsonian Germany. Correct?

If I have understood the post, there is much I could say in support of that position. However, there  are many important differences such as we have not just emerged from a "Holy Roman Empire, aka German Colonial Empire, nor have we been under the crushing oppression of the Treaty of Versailles nor have we yet experienced a "Weimar" hyper-inflationary state (yet) to "soften up the belly" of the People for a JBT Democracy.

We might agree that there are forces in motion which might take us "there" but I remain optimistic that unlike post WWI Germany, we have a foundation of law widely accepted and embraced by the People. They/we just do not yet recognize the thin thread from which our cherished rights now dangle. I believe our military will not follow the JBT and the more minds and hands reach out with reason, the more likely that I will be correct. We must avoid the Balkanization of our society as we experienced in the 60's.

But wakened to the threat, and I believe awakened our nation will become, the Shumer will hit the fan and hopefully the fan is located down wind from Washington D.C.

If I am wrong in my assessment, there is always Plan B.

BR/DS
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Junker on August 14, 2008, 04:06:54 pm
fyi: INTJ thread (http://thementalmilitia.com/forums/index.php?topic=1040.0)

Good intj-ing, Hollywoodgold.

Ref use of military: Follow the German history...brownshirts, etc. Local oligarchy & their cops are
of interest in that line, and the many wannabe's who feel disregarded.


Hollywoodgold:

> If I follow your thought(s) correctly, the notion is that we are expressing a similar pattern as post Wilsonian Germany. Correct?

Sorry, sorry. My comment was too shorthand. Post Wilsonian Germany is the correct era, but I was not trying to compare the whole or overall run of events. As you indicate:

> If I have understood the post, there is much I could say in support of that position. However, there  are many important differences such as we have not just emerged from a "Holy Roman Empire, aka German Colonial Empire, nor have we been under the crushing oppression of the Treaty of Versailles nor have we yet experienced a "Weimar" hyper-inflationary state (yet) to "soften up the belly" of the People for a JBT Democracy.

My thoughts (which too much remained in my head rather than typed in) were centered on the growth and take-over of the Nat-Soc party-- the use of the brownshirts and party personnel for violence (their JBT formation) and pressure to shift the local control in their direction, rather than the govt-controlled assets of police & military. And surely as the power shifted, more local police were brought in both as nat-soc members and as under the orders of nat-soc elected local bureaucrats. Then more so even later in the process of nat-soc party control. My point is that this process was earlier not dependent on "official" troops-- mil or police. They used and recruited the "wannabe's", those who felt injured by the power/money game or left out of its rewards ("equal pay for equal work", etc. of mostly socialist origin).

This is partly reflective of ff's "captured city" effort as the power plays had to do with local oligarchies and shifting their power lines into the party's. Another example/view can be seen in the Tammany Hall group in New York. Note "reflective" is a wishy-washy word, mostly to indicate seeing or making parallels in the situations in that shifting of power lines.

And returning to:

> ...nor have we been under the crushing oppression of the Treaty of Versailles nor have we yet experienced a "Weimar" hyper-inflationary state (yet) to "soften up the belly" ....

Specifically, quite true. But we have been in a welfare state since FDR. That has created a bunch of expectations in this culture about which there is much whining (and gnashing of teeth:-) and when those expectations are dashed creates the emotional set parallel to that of Gm's era. And that emotional set provides for demogoguery and the asking for a "savior".


> We might agree that there are forces in motion which might take us "there" but I remain optimistic that unlike post WWI Germany, we have a foundation of law widely accepted and embraced by the People. They/we just do not yet recognize the thin thread from which our cherished rights now dangle. I believe our military will not follow the JBT and the more minds and hands reach out with reason, the more likely that I will be correct. We must avoid the Balkanization of our society as we experienced in the 60's.

Which I think says you and I see the parallels similarly, but they are playing out in a different time and culture and where and how they will lead or play out is difficult to predict/specify. To that I say, yes, yes. I don't know or specifically predict. I stand with your expression of the timeline. The inertia present in the US society and dollar seems to assure a relatively long decline. Weimar hyper-inflation, I think, present an example of a multi-year process.

> But wakened to the threat, and I believe awakened our nation will become, the Shumer will hit the fan and hopefully the fan is located down wind from Washington D.C.
> If I am wrong in my assessment, there is always Plan B.

Yes, predicting in this new set of relations is a "maybe, well, if..., etc." kind of proposition. I certainly do not have but a guess.



edit: fixed quote error 090321
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: MamaLiberty on August 14, 2008, 04:27:14 pm
I must have been sleeping or something. What is this "plan B?"
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Hollywoodgold on August 14, 2008, 04:40:56 pm
I must have been sleeping or something. What is this "plan B?"

ML:

My reference was to my preference for optimism. If my preferential solutions fail which are predicated on an enduring goodness in The people, Plan B is to raise the bridge, if there's one to lift in that event.

BR/DS
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Hollywoodgold on August 14, 2008, 04:52:31 pm
fyi: INTJ thread (http://thementalmilitia.com/forums/index.php?topic=1040.0)

Good intj-ing, Hollywoodgold.

Ref use of military: Follow the German history...brownshirts, etc. Local oligarchy & their cops are
of interest in that line, and the many wannabe's who feel disregarded.


Hollywoodgold:

> If I follow your thought(s) correctly, the notion is that we are expressing a similar pattern as post Wilsonian Germany. Correct?

Sorry, sorry. My comment was too shorthand. Post Wilsonian Germany is the correct era, but I was not trying compare the whole or overall run of events. As you indicate:

> If I have understood the post, there is much I could say in support of that position. However, there  are many important differences such as we have not just emerged from a "Holy Roman Empire, aka German Colonial Empire, nor have we been under the crushing oppression of the Treaty of Versailles nor have we yet experienced a "Weimar" hyper-inflationary state (yet) to "soften up the belly" of the People for a JBT Democracy.

My thoughts (which too much remained in my head rather than typed in) were centered on the growth and take-over of the Nat-Soc party-- the use of the brownshirts and party personnel for violence (their JBT formation) and pressure to shift the local control in their direction, rather than the govt-controlled assets of police & military. And surely as the power shifted, more local police were brought in both as nat-soc members and as under the orders of nat-soc elected local bureaucrats. Then more so even later in the process of nat-soc party control. My point is that this process was earlier not dependent on "official" troops-- mil or police. They used and recruited the "wannabe's", those who felt injured by the power/money game or left out of its rewards ("equal pay for equal work", etc. of mostly socialist origin).

This is partly reflective of ff's "captured city" effort as the power plays had to do with local oligarchies and shifting their power lines into the party's. Another example/view can be seen in the Tammany Hall group in New York. Note "reflective" is a wishy-washy word, mostly to indicate seeing or making parallels in the situations in that shifting of power lines.

And returning to:

> ...nor have we been under the crushing oppression of the Treaty of Versailles nor have we yet experienced a "Weimar" hyper-inflationary state (yet) to "soften up the belly" ....

Specifically, quite true. But we have been in a welfare state since FDR. That has created a bunch of expectations in this culture about which there is much whining (and gnashing of teeth:-) and when those expectations are dashed creates the emotional set parallel to that of Gm's era. And that emotional set provides for demogoguery and the asking for a "savior".


> We might agree that there are forces in motion which might take us "there" but I remain optimistic that unlike post WWI Germany, we have a foundation of law widely accepted and embraced by the People. They/we just do not yet recognize the thin thread from which our cherished rights now dangle. I believe our military will not follow the JBT and the more minds and hands reach out with reason, the more likely that I will be correct. We must avoid the Balkanization of our society as we experienced in the 60's.

Which I think says you and I see the parallels similarly, but they are playing out in a different time and culture and where and how they will lead or play out is difficult to predict/specify. To that I say, yes, yes. I don't know or specifically predict. I stand with your expression of the timeline. The inertia present in the US society and dollar seems to assure a relatively long decline. Weimar hyper-inflation, I think, present an example of a multi-year process.

> But wakened to the threat, and I believe awakened our nation will become, the Shumer will hit the fan and hopefully the fan is located down wind from Washington D.C.
> If I am wrong in my assessment, there is always Plan B.

Yes, predicting in this new set of relations is a "maybe, well, if..., etc." kind of proposition. I certainly do not have but a guess.

Junker:

Thanks for the thoughtful rejoinder.

Accurate predictions are made infrequently and when accurate, are often made soon before the event occurs. Read Meredith Whitney's comments on the financials. She is attributed the gift of "savantic" predictions for what Mogambo or Willie have been saying for years. And cheaper...

I appreciate you recanting the role of the BShirts. A thought came to mind that the NGO's are functioning as international BShirts through the various meta-governmental entities.

The death spiral will likely take years and the Wizards will not give up easily. They will fight for their Kingdoms. It appears the next chapter will have even more heroic circuses and larger loaves of bread.

I hope I live long enough.

BR/DS
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Rick N on September 05, 2008, 02:05:13 pm
Some books you might consider also:
http://www.javelinpress.com/order.html
Hologram of Liberty - Boston T. Party
Boston's Gun Bible

I second this enthusiastically--no library is complete without Boston's Gun Bible (read it twice), and you might also look into his book on Surviving Y2K since we're discussing SHTF scenarios. I'd also recommend the ultimate SHTF novel, which is "Lucifer's Hammer" by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: OLD TIRED RN on September 05, 2008, 05:39:33 pm
Rick, you are very astute to realize the great worth of Boston's books.  All of his books are very worthwhile, as are the great writings/books of our very own Claire Wolfe here. 

I know that you describe yourself as a newbie here as we all were at some point.  May I encourage you our new friend to read Read READ from Claire AND Boston.  Therein lies a very fine education in these matters. Oh, on Boston's books, make sure you get the revised updated version of Boston's Gun Bible AND "You and the Police."  They are true updates, not just a redoing to sell.

Hope we'll see you here for a good long while, and that you'll enjoy your time here.  Private mail me if I may be helpful.

                             Respectfully,  RN
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Rarick on September 25, 2008, 02:31:51 am
Some books you might consider also:
http://www.javelinpress.com/order.html
Hologram of Liberty - Boston T. Party
Boston's Gun Bible
I second this enthusiastically--no library is complete without Boston's Gun Bible (read it twice), and you might also look into his book on Surviving Y2K since we're discussing SHTF scenarios. I'd also recommend the ultimate SHTF novel, which is "Lucifer's Hammer" by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle.

yes- read Boston Tea Party's stuff


Dies The Fire By S.M. Stirling [B Dalton and Barnes have the book now] is a much more current cover for SHTF than Niven/ Pournelle.  I like Pournelle's CoDominium series.  Specifically the last 3 books about the planet Sparta and their government set up.  They deal with an interstellar SHTF.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: jamie on September 25, 2008, 09:52:21 pm
fyi: INTJ thread (http://thementalmilitia.com/forums/index.php?topic=1040.0)


Junker:

 

We might agree that there are forces in motion which might take us "there" but I remain optimistic that unlike post WWI Germany, we have a foundation of law widely accepted and embraced by the People. They/we just do not yet recognize the thin thread from which our cherished rights now dangle. I believe our military will not follow the JBT and the more minds and hands reach out with reason, the more likely that I will be correct. We must avoid the Balkanization of our society as we experienced in the 60's.



BR/DS

In the past I read quite a lot of books on the Weimar Republic and the events leading up and including the Nazi takeover.   A constant refrain in all of these books was this,  how could this happen in Germany ?  They had a long established respect for law and a foundation of law and a grand civilization.  Culture, science, art, education, all of it.  It was all swept away. And the psychopaths took over.   

 I don't think Americans have any "greater foundation of law widely accepted and embraced by the people" than Germany did.

Given the right conditions, I think those cattle cars and camps can and will happen.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Hollywoodgold on September 25, 2008, 10:31:31 pm
fyi: INTJ thread (http://thementalmilitia.com/forums/index.php?topic=1040.0)


Junker:

 

We might agree that there are forces in motion which might take us "there" but I remain optimistic that unlike post WWI Germany, we have a foundation of law widely accepted and embraced by the People. They/we just do not yet recognize the thin thread from which our cherished rights now dangle. I believe our military will not follow the JBT and the more minds and hands reach out with reason, the more likely that I will be correct. We must avoid the Balkanization of our society as we experienced in the 60's.



BR/DS

In the past I read quite a lot of books on the Weimar Republic and the events leading up and including the Nazi takeover.   A constant refrain in all of these books was this,  how could this happen in Germany ?  They had a long established respect for law and a foundation of law and a grand civilization.  Culture, science, art, education, all of it.  It was all swept away. And the psychopaths took over.   

 I don't think Americans have any "greater foundation of law widely accepted and embraced by the people" than Germany did.

Given the right conditions, I think those cattle cars and camps can and will happen.


Jamie:

I was referring to the conditions imposed on Germany under the Treaty of Versailles. Germany was beaten down by its provisions and a nation was unable to grow out of the post war malaise engendering the Third Reich. The Kaiser's policies and military wrought destruction on his adversaries but hell was unleashed in the name of National Socialism in Germany. Today we lack the punitive force of the V-Treaty which was my point, perhaps poorly made.

BR/DS
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: jamie on September 26, 2008, 09:49:07 am
While it's true that the u.s. isn't under the same type of crushing burden as the Versailles treaty, I think one could substitute the crushing burden of what is going on now, which will only get worse.  Every day brings more bad news and what is unfolding is very, very bad.

Alll the pieces are in place from the so called patriot act to all the subsequent ones. A totalitarian takeover seems to be exactly what they want.  All of the legislation in the past several years points in that direction.

And I'll just repeat my initial point,  I don't think americans will resist it anymore than the Germans did. The Versailles treaty notwithstanding.

The Defense Authorization Act of 2006, passed on Sept. 30, empowers President George W. Bush to impose martial law in the event of a terrorist "incident," if he or other federal officials perceive a shortfall of "public order," or even in response to antiwar protests that get unruly as a result of government provocations. . . .
It only took a few paragraphs in a $500 billion, 591-page bill to raze one of the most important limits on federal power. Congress passed the Insurrection Act in 1807 to severely restrict the president's ability to deploy the military within the United States. The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 tightened these restrictions, imposing a two-year prison sentence on anyone who used the military within the U.S. without the express permission of Congress. But there is a loophole: Posse Comitatus is waived if the president invokes the Insurrection Act.

Section 1076 of the John Warner National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2007 changed the name of the key provision in the statute book from "Insurrection Act" to "Enforcement of the Laws to Restore Public Order Act." The Insurrection Act of 1807 stated that the president could deploy troops within the United States only "to suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy." The new law expands the list to include "natural disaster, epidemic, or other serious public health emergency, terrorist attack or incident, or other condition" -- and such "condition" is not defined or limited. . . .

The story of how Section 1076 became law vivifies how expanding government power is almost always the correct answer in Washington. Some people have claimed the provision was slipped into the bill in the middle of the night. In reality, the administration clearly signaled its intent and almost no one in the media or Congress tried to stop it . . . .

Section 1076 was supported by both conservatives and liberals. Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich.), the ranking Democratic member on the Senate Armed Services Committee, co-wrote the provision along with committee chairman Sen. John Warner (R-Va.). Sen. Ted Kennedy openly endorsed it, and Rep. Duncan Hunter (R-Calif.), then-chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, was an avid proponent. . . .

Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.), the ranking Democrat on the Senate Judiciary Committee, warned on Sept. 19 that "we certainly do not need to make it easier for Presidents to declare martial law," but his alarm got no response. Ten days later, he commented in the Congressional Record: "Using the military for law enforcement goes against one of the founding tenets of our democracy." Leahy further condemned the process, declaring that it "was just slipped in the defense bill as a rider with little study. Other congressional committees with jurisdiction over these matters had no chance to comment, let alone hold hearings on, these proposals."

As is typical, very few members of the media even mentioned any of this, let alone discussed it (and I failed to give this the attention it deserved at the time), but Congressional Quarterly's Jeff Stein wrote an excellent article at the time detailing the process and noted that "despite such a radical turn, the new law garnered little dissent, or even attention, on the Hill." Stein also noted that while "the blogosphere, of course, was all over it . . . a search of The Washington Post and New York Times archives, using the terms 'Insurrection Act,' 'martial law' and 'Congress,' came up empty."
Bovard and Stein both noted that every Governor -- including Republicans -- joined in Leahy's objections, as they perceived it as a threat from the Federal Government to what has long been the role of the National Guard. But those concerns were easily brushed aside by the bipartisan majorities in Congress, eager -- as always -- to grant the President this radical new power.

The decision this month to permanently deploy a U.S. Army brigade inside the U.S. for purely domestic law enforcement purposes is the fruit of the Congressional elimination of the long-standing prohibitions in Posse Comitatus (although there are credible signs that even before Congress acted, the Bush administration secretly decided it possessed the inherent power to violate the Act). It shouldn't take any efforts to explain why the permanent deployment of the U.S. military inside American cities, acting as the President's police force, is so disturbing. Bovard:

"Martial law" is a euphemism for military dictatorship. When foreign democracies are overthrown and a junta establishes martial law, Americans usually recognize that a fundamental change has occurred. . . . Section 1076 is Enabling Act-type legislation-something that purports to preserve law-and-order while formally empowering the president to rule by decree.
The historic importance of the Posse Comitatus prohibition was also well-analyzed here.
As the recent militarization of St. Paul during the GOP Convention made abundantly clear, our actual police forces are already quite militarized. Still, what possible rationale is there for permanently deploying the U.S. Army inside the United States -- under the command of the President -- for any purpose, let alone things such as "crowd control," other traditional law enforcement functions, and a seemingly unlimited array of other uses at the President's sole discretion? And where are all of the stalwart right-wing "small government conservatives" who spent the 1990s so vocally opposing every aspect of the growing federal police force? And would it be possible to get some explanation from the Government about what the rationale is for this unprecedented domestic military deployment (at least unprecedented since the Civil War), and why it is being undertaken now?

UPDATE: As this commenter notes, the 2008 National Defense Authorization Act somewhat limited the scope of the powers granted by the 2007 Act detailed above (mostly to address constitutional concerns by limiting the President's powers to deploy the military to suppress disorder that threatens constitutional rights), but President Bush, when signing that 2008 Act into law, issued a signing statement which, though vague, seems to declare that he does not recognize those new limitations.

UPDATE II: There's no need to start manufacturing all sorts of scare scenarios about Bush canceling elections or the imminent declaration of martial law or anything of that sort. None of that is going to happen with a single brigade and it's unlikely in the extreme that they'd be announcing these deployments if they had activated any such plans. The point is that the deployment is a very dangerous precedent, quite possibly illegal, and a radical abandonment of an important democratic safeguard. As always with first steps of this sort, the danger lies in how the power can be abused in the future.

Copyright ©2008 Salon Media Group, Inc.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Hollywoodgold on September 26, 2008, 10:37:51 am
While it's true that the u.s. isn't under the same type of crushing burden as the Versailles treaty, I think one could substitute the crushing burden of what is going on now, which will only get worse.  Every day brings more bad news and what is unfolding is very, very bad.

Alll the pieces are in place from the so called patriot act to all the subsequent ones. A totalitarian takeover seems to be exactly what they want.  All of the legislation in the past several years points in that direction.

And I'll just repeat my initial point,  I don't think americans will resist it anymore than the Germans did. The Versailles treaty notwithstanding.

The Defense Authorization Act of 2006, passed on Sept. 30, empowers President George W. Bush to impose martial law in the event of a terrorist "incident," if he or other federal officials perceive a shortfall of "public order," or even in response to antiwar protests that get unruly as a result of government provocations. . . .
It only took a few paragraphs in a $500 billion, 591-page bill to raze one of the most important limits on federal power. Congress passed the Insurrection Act in 1807 to severely restrict the president's ability to deploy the military within the United States. The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 tightened these restrictions, imposing a two-year prison sentence on anyone who used the military within the U.S. without the express permission of Congress. But there is a loophole: Posse Comitatus is waived if the president invokes the Insurrection Act.

Section 1076 of the John Warner National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2007 changed the name of the key provision in the statute book from "Insurrection Act" to "Enforcement of the Laws to Restore Public Order Act." The Insurrection Act of 1807 stated that the president could deploy troops within the United States only "to suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy." The new law expands the list to include "natural disaster, epidemic, or other serious public health emergency, terrorist attack or incident, or other condition" -- and such "condition" is not defined or limited. . . .

The story of how Section 1076 became law vivifies how expanding government power is almost always the correct answer in Washington. Some people have claimed the provision was slipped into the bill in the middle of the night. In reality, the administration clearly signaled its intent and almost no one in the media or Congress tried to stop it . . . .

Section 1076 was supported by both conservatives and liberals. Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich.), the ranking Democratic member on the Senate Armed Services Committee, co-wrote the provision along with committee chairman Sen. John Warner (R-Va.). Sen. Ted Kennedy openly endorsed it, and Rep. Duncan Hunter (R-Calif.), then-chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, was an avid proponent. . . .

Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.), the ranking Democrat on the Senate Judiciary Committee, warned on Sept. 19 that "we certainly do not need to make it easier for Presidents to declare martial law," but his alarm got no response. Ten days later, he commented in the Congressional Record: "Using the military for law enforcement goes against one of the founding tenets of our democracy." Leahy further condemned the process, declaring that it "was just slipped in the defense bill as a rider with little study. Other congressional committees with jurisdiction over these matters had no chance to comment, let alone hold hearings on, these proposals."

As is typical, very few members of the media even mentioned any of this, let alone discussed it (and I failed to give this the attention it deserved at the time), but Congressional Quarterly's Jeff Stein wrote an excellent article at the time detailing the process and noted that "despite such a radical turn, the new law garnered little dissent, or even attention, on the Hill." Stein also noted that while "the blogosphere, of course, was all over it . . . a search of The Washington Post and New York Times archives, using the terms 'Insurrection Act,' 'martial law' and 'Congress,' came up empty."
Bovard and Stein both noted that every Governor -- including Republicans -- joined in Leahy's objections, as they perceived it as a threat from the Federal Government to what has long been the role of the National Guard. But those concerns were easily brushed aside by the bipartisan majorities in Congress, eager -- as always -- to grant the President this radical new power.

The decision this month to permanently deploy a U.S. Army brigade inside the U.S. for purely domestic law enforcement purposes is the fruit of the Congressional elimination of the long-standing prohibitions in Posse Comitatus (although there are credible signs that even before Congress acted, the Bush administration secretly decided it possessed the inherent power to violate the Act). It shouldn't take any efforts to explain why the permanent deployment of the U.S. military inside American cities, acting as the President's police force, is so disturbing. Bovard:

"Martial law" is a euphemism for military dictatorship. When foreign democracies are overthrown and a junta establishes martial law, Americans usually recognize that a fundamental change has occurred. . . . Section 1076 is Enabling Act-type legislation-something that purports to preserve law-and-order while formally empowering the president to rule by decree.
The historic importance of the Posse Comitatus prohibition was also well-analyzed here.
As the recent militarization of St. Paul during the GOP Convention made abundantly clear, our actual police forces are already quite militarized. Still, what possible rationale is there for permanently deploying the U.S. Army inside the United States -- under the command of the President -- for any purpose, let alone things such as "crowd control," other traditional law enforcement functions, and a seemingly unlimited array of other uses at the President's sole discretion? And where are all of the stalwart right-wing "small government conservatives" who spent the 1990s so vocally opposing every aspect of the growing federal police force? And would it be possible to get some explanation from the Government about what the rationale is for this unprecedented domestic military deployment (at least unprecedented since the Civil War), and why it is being undertaken now?

UPDATE: As this commenter notes, the 2008 National Defense Authorization Act somewhat limited the scope of the powers granted by the 2007 Act detailed above (mostly to address constitutional concerns by limiting the President's powers to deploy the military to suppress disorder that threatens constitutional rights), but President Bush, when signing that 2008 Act into law, issued a signing statement which, though vague, seems to declare that he does not recognize those new limitations.

UPDATE II: There's no need to start manufacturing all sorts of scare scenarios about Bush canceling elections or the imminent declaration of martial law or anything of that sort. None of that is going to happen with a single brigade and it's unlikely in the extreme that they'd be announcing these deployments if they had activated any such plans. The point is that the deployment is a very dangerous precedent, quite possibly illegal, and a radical abandonment of an important democratic safeguard. As always with first steps of this sort, the danger lies in how the power can be abused in the future.

Copyright ©2008 Salon Media Group, Inc.


Jaime:

I am not disagreeing with the adverse impacts to our freedoms resulting from the PAtriot Act. Not at all. I am also now aware, via Yorick's post, of the 1rstBCAT being assigned to NorComm and this is very bad news. My original comment was intended to differentiate an externally imposed force of social change from "less detectable" incremental changes caused by internal changes. In that regard, the Germans had a bogeyman with which it was easy to rile up the populace. In our current situation, other than the war on "Terror", absent the clear and present threat so to speak, most people cannot see the danger within and at the same time, aren't as motivated by the external threat to put on brown shirts.

I understand that that may change and the thread here discussing "snitches" may very well be a plausible direction here in the US, albeit a very dire one. It may very well be that the threat justifying the ignoring of the Possee Comitatus Act will be the internal resistance to the Bankster takeover of the country now underway. I think this is what you are talking around and in that regard we are in agreement.

BR/DS
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: TFA303 on October 28, 2008, 12:59:38 pm
fyi: INTJ thread (http://thementalmilitia.com/forums/index.php?topic=1040.0)
Junker:
 
Jamie:

I was referring to the conditions imposed on Germany under the Treaty of Versailles. Germany was beaten down by its provisions and a nation was unable to grow out of the post war malaise engendering the Third Reich. The Kaiser's policies and military wrought destruction on his adversaries but hell was unleashed in the name of National Socialism in Germany. Today we lack the punitive force of the V-Treaty which was my point, perhaps poorly made.

BR/DS

Much of the influence from the Versailles Treaty lay in its humiliation of the Germans; it made a leader who promised a return to greatness and self-respect sound very appealing. I would suggest that our descent from superpower/hyperpower status could very well sting just as much as the War Guilt Clause did, with similar results.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Hollywoodgold on October 28, 2008, 01:26:14 pm
fyi: INTJ thread (http://thementalmilitia.com/forums/index.php?topic=1040.0)
Junker:
 
Jamie:

I was referring to the conditions imposed on Germany under the Treaty of Versailles. Germany was beaten down by its provisions and a nation was unable to grow out of the post war malaise engendering the Third Reich. The Kaiser's policies and military wrought destruction on his adversaries but hell was unleashed in the name of National Socialism in Germany. Today we lack the punitive force of the V-Treaty which was my point, perhaps poorly made.

BR/DS

Much of the influence from the Versailles Treaty lay in its humiliation of the Germans; it made a leader who promised a return to greatness and self-respect sound very appealing. I would suggest that our descent from superpower/hyperpower status could very well sting just as much as the War Guilt Clause did, with similar results.

TFA:

I believe that to be a plausible outcome. If the Dems morph into National Socialism then they will likely have the power to implement such a scenario. Will they morph? I don't know but they seem far too keen on pleasing the UN than expressing National supremacy.


DS
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Okie1 on May 25, 2009, 06:30:29 pm
Hello, Im new here also and have lurked about reading and learning.Im an army vet in my middle age.Somewhere above the half century mark.I read a lot of good input in these threads nd agree with a lot of what is said.Im not nearly as articulate as a lot here though.I tend to agree with JJ in his thinking that a lot of active duty would turn out on our side.Im hopeful of this anyway because it would make for better odds for us.Even if im wrong i look back at vietnam and remember how long we were there and even though we won most of the battles,at the end of the day we withdrew from the field and hence we were not the victors.We lost to a peoples army that toiled
without rest it seems for their objective and beat a modern army that was better financed better armed and so on.So i tend to think all is not lost whichever way it might go.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: knobster on May 25, 2009, 07:18:21 pm
Hello, Im new here also and have lurked about reading and learning....

Welcome!  You'll find enough information here to keep your brain going full-bore for three lifetimes.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: jamie on May 25, 2009, 09:01:35 pm
Hello, Im new here also and have lurked about reading and learning.Im an army vet in my middle age.Somewhere above the half century mark.I read a lot of good input in these threads nd agree with a lot of what is said.Im not nearly as articulate as a lot here though.I tend to agree with JJ in his thinking that a lot of active duty would turn out on our side.Im hopeful of this anyway because it would make for better odds for us.Even if im wrong i look back at vietnam and remember how long we were there and even though we won most of the battles,at the end of the day we withdrew from the field and hence we were not the victors.We lost to a peoples army that toiled
without rest it seems for their objective and beat a modern army that was better financed better armed and so on.So i tend to think all is not lost whichever way it might go.

I agree with you Okie1. I would add that the U.S. military has learned a lot about counter-insurgency in the last few years. You can bet that they will employ everything they have learned, propaganda, disinformation, political means, control of the media and every other CI technique. Pretty much like they do now,only accelerated.  It won't just be about force and raw power.  I'm just saying.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: jamie on May 25, 2009, 10:15:31 pm
Quote
the U.S. military has learned a lot about counter-insurgency in the last few years.

Indeed.  I remember reading a Worldnetdaily article back in 2002/01 about how our buddy Saddam knew how to operate his forces to defeat the "US Military" as well.  It was said that groups of only three would make the day by dressing in "plain clothes" like t-shirts at the side of the road.  Perhaps that's where we were duped into thinking it would be a cakewalk?

Please expand on this.

Peace and Respect

I am not sure what you are asking. I am just saying that the U.S. military has learned a lot about counter insurgency in the last eight years. And they will use these techniques against any insurgency.

If you don't believe that they have learned a lot then why do many people think the u.s. has won in Iraq? They haven't but people believe that.

They now understand that Fallujah was a mistake. They understand that a counter insurgency can't be won with force. 

That is what petraeus and the new counter insurgency manual was all about. They just fired the commander in Afghanistan for not going along with the approved counter insurgency methodology.

I don't think they will succeed but the point I was trying to make is, in this kind of conflict they now have years of experience.

It is important to recognize that.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: OOSpool on May 25, 2009, 10:17:52 pm
Not really asking anything.  Just a thought!  I agree, they have changed the manuals and made the experiences different.  I'm just thinking out loud...Everyone should see how the militaries of the world change technology and time and how they do it.  Back in my day, we didn't have remote-controlled-drones on the borders, does that make me weaker?  Awareness is always key, what one does about it is an even better way toward freedom...

It brings back memories...

Peace indeed!
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: dogsledder54 on May 25, 2009, 10:46:08 pm
even though we won most of the battles,at the end of the day we withdrew from the field and hence we were not the victors.We lost to a peoples army that toiled
without rest

Yes. They were fighting for their HOMES. AT HOME. Very important point. (Even tho I understand the nobility of those fighting for THEIR freedom- that is the U.S. troops and the ARVN) But fighting for SOMEONE ELSE'S freedom rarely works, IMHO.


I agree with you Okie1. I would add that the U.S. military has learned a lot about counter-insurgency in the last few years. You can bet that they will employ everything they have learned, propaganda, disinformation, political means, control of the media and every other CI technique. Pretty much like they do now,only accelerated.  It won't just be about force and raw power.  I'm just saying.

I must disagree. IMOpinion, Any troops fighting or attempting to round up and/or control U.S. Americans
(see Miss Teen South Carolina : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww )
will be doing something completely alien to them- that is fighting or rounding up U.S. AMERICANS.never mind.  WE ARE ALL FREAKING DOOMED !


What a beautiful skyscraper. and the top floor completely empty.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Pragmatic1 on May 26, 2009, 09:20:21 pm
Hello, Im new here also and have lurked about reading and learning.Im an army vet in my middle age.Somewhere above the half century mark.I read a lot of good input in these threads nd agree with a lot of what is said.Im not nearly as articulate as a lot here though.I tend to agree with JJ in his thinking that a lot of active duty would turn out on our side.
A week ago I would have disagreed. After seeing Oath keepers, I can now agree. It was like a breath of hope into my lungs.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Freelee on October 26, 2009, 12:54:00 pm
I have only been on here today. I grew up in a fairly poor family had land we farmed and was taught how to use the land. I will be returning staeside soon and have to start preapring for when it happens. Unfortenately Im low on cash but thank god for having friends who will help me. when I get home. This site has been a huge help already. Im researching guns laws in my state, looking for a nice piece of land up in the mountains. Looking for a job already. Saving some extra cash. Since I had my eyes opened to this society(people who want to survive when it gets bad). Things I hadn.t thought of Im doing now.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: OLD TIRED RN on October 26, 2009, 07:51:31 pm
Welcome aboard there Freelee.  Great to have you with us. Hope and trust you'll stick around a while and benefit greatly from the learning and association available here. Just ask away when ever you need help.  No dumb questions here.  Whatever you want to know has probably already been asked and/or someone else wants to know. 

Looking up gun laws of your home state.............What state would that be??

               I'm from west Tennessee.  How close are you? Would be great to meet/eat if you are nearby.
               I'm kinda limited now due to misfortune, lots of health problems.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Freelee on October 27, 2009, 04:27:52 am
Welcome aboard there Freelee.  Great to have you with us. Hope and trust you'll stick around a while and benefit greatly from the learning and association available here. Just ask away when ever you need help.  No dumb questions here.  Whatever you want to know has probably already been asked and/or someone else wants to know. 

Looking up gun laws of your home state.............What state would that be??

               I'm from west Tennessee.  How close are you? Would be great to meet/eat if you are nearby.
               I'm kinda limited now due to misfortune, lots of health problems.

I will be moving back to Colorado when I come home currently in europe. I will be till febuaryish. Thanks for the warm welcome I will be sticking around reading, learning and hopefully not asking to many stupid questions. I like tennesse its beautiful country full of helpful people. My car broke down there once and a Family helped me get the parts to fix it and even gave me a place to stay the night. Its rare to find people like that. Have a great day.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: OLD TIRED RN on October 27, 2009, 09:47:47 pm
Freelee,  there are a lot of good people like that all over the country, not only here in TN.  One thing that showed me that was all sorts of natural disasters and the way that so many individual respond to help people, strangers, travelers, etc.  Yes, there are a lot of criminals just waiting for a chance to take advantage of other people's misfortune, but lots of good folks too.   Best to you and yours. Wishing you safety in travels and a return to home.

                            Respectfully, RN
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Freelee on October 29, 2009, 11:26:26 am
Freelee,  there are a lot of good people like that all over the country, not only here in TN.  One thing that showed me that was all sorts of natural disasters and the way that so many individual respond to help people, strangers, travelers, etc.  Yes, there are a lot of criminals just waiting for a chance to take advantage of other people's misfortune, but lots of good folks too.   Best to you and yours. Wishing you safety in travels and a return to home.

                            Respectfully, RN

Thank you RN. When I return I hope to meet some like minded indivduals like myself who believe in Prepardness and survial. Lets not forget FREEDOM. Best to you and yours too.

LEE
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: bighiller on December 09, 2009, 03:26:23 pm
Are there any good people in Canada? More specifically BC?
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: da gooch on December 25, 2009, 10:50:51 am
My wife and I see the collapse coming.  We are trying like mad to get the skills we need.  At the same time I work at a lucrative job that pays for setting p the homestead.  90 miles to any place significant.  We were lucky.  We moved here 9 months ago.  4 of our 5 neighbors feel the same way about what is coming.  They have lived here all their lives so it made me realize rural "ain't stupid".  We each have 200+ acres and fencing and ponds.  My advice to someone trying to go "poof" from the city is to get skills first.  We were city folk.  We took the family cow course, family goat course, started raising chickens on our own, we have been intensively studying gardening and agriculture, lead throwers, blacksmithing, rudimentary carpentry, animal husbandry, and other things.  Tis amazing how much time you have when you don't have television.  Skills are what could feed you if you can't afford a hidey hole and supplies.
bold emphasis is mine

Hear Hear G_w.

It is my personal opinion that skills may be as important as, or more than, any other form of preparation.
While one cannot eat their "skills"  IF one of those skills is knowing the edible wild foods that grow in your area ....

[perhaps The Most Important Skill to me personally .... YMMV]

While tools can break and or be taken from you [stolen] Mother Nature keeps on growing foodstuffs both flora and fauna.

Learning what is edible in the "wild" in your environment could someday make the difference between survival and those other two options. [slavery to the tyrant hoarding the "food" and death]

:twocents:
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Rarick on December 26, 2009, 05:35:38 am
Skills and knowledge are the most impotant by far.  Some stuff squirreled away is good, but if you have no way of replacing it with something you can grow or gather, you fail the test.  The same with tools, if you do not have the tools to make replacements for tools, or the knowledge of how to start from scratch (stone knife/axe with Bow) you are going to be in trouble.  I am gradually working my way back down to where I am properly "Heinleinized".

I look at primitive stuff for fun because I may need to at least have the concept down for reinvention when I find myself barehanded in the wild.  Knowing it can be done is probably more than half the battle.

No batteries for energy storage for me, when I can I will rig up wind pumped hydro, or compressed air reservoir in place of something that needs 2 toxic/ dangerous mineral/chemicals and at least 4 different trades to build (miner, smith, chemist, glassblower-the case-, acid and lead). Not to mention the tools needed to make the thing from scratch.   

Air compression requires a bike pump and a buried airtight vault with pipes, nothing toxic and only the hazzard of sudden air release. Pumped Hydro requires a windmill some pipe and an elevated pond.  If a dam is involved, then make sure its bursting path is in a useful direction away from the house. Both technologies are fairly quiet and are sustainable with handmade items. (tubing could become an issue, but if done right, that will last several lifetimes)

Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Faydra6 on April 19, 2010, 08:33:04 pm
I got really interested in storing food and planning ahead when my husband and I went through our own personal SHTF.  Right after sept 11th my husbands job nosedived.  He tried to stick it out, but we had no money.  And I mean no money!  We had 3 children and a mountain of debt.  He got a night job cleaning a local church and I worked during the day babysitting in my home.  Putting all three kids in daycare would have taken care of any money I would have made working elsewhere.  It got so bad that I had to go to the food bank with my 3 little ones.  Let me tell you that was the most humiliating part of it.  I was sitting next to crack addicts and homeless people.  When I went into to be interviewed the lady behind the desk told me I shouldn't have had so many kids!  So it's OK to give food to drug addicts, but not to a struggling mom with three kids under 5?!! Talk about charity!!  After that I swore I would never be in the position where someone tells me right in front of my children that they shouldn't exist! 

One month later we threw in the towel, got a job two states away for good money and started fresh.  Now we are out of debt and will never get credit or payments of any kind.  I have enough food stored for a year so I will never have to ask for a handout unless it really is a SHTF.  And we grow and can most of our food.  I'm still not as prepared as I would wish for TSHTF, but really who is?  There is so much that we can't forsee.  We can make educated guesses but that is all.

What I really want is to join or start a group in our area of north eastern washington state, but I have not met one person who has even a month supply of emergency supplies.  And I don't want to broadcast around that we have lots of food reserves.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: gaurdduck on April 19, 2010, 09:50:07 pm
I got really interested in storing food and planning ahead when my husband and I went through our own personal SHTF.  Right after sept 11th my husbands job nosedived.  He tried to stick it out, but we had no money.  And I mean no money!  We had 3 children and a mountain of debt.  He got a night job cleaning a local church and I worked during the day babysitting in my home.  Putting all three kids in daycare would have taken care of any money I would have made working elsewhere.  It got so bad that I had to go to the food bank with my 3 little ones.  Let me tell you that was the most humiliating part of it.  I was sitting next to crack addicts and homeless people.  When I went into to be interviewed the lady behind the desk told me I shouldn't have had so many kids!  So it's OK to give food to drug addicts, but not to a struggling mom with three kids under 5?!! Talk about charity!!  After that I swore I would never be in the position where someone tells me right in front of my children that they shouldn't exist! 

One month later we threw in the towel, got a job two states away for good money and started fresh.  Now we are out of debt and will never get credit or payments of any kind.  I have enough food stored for a year so I will never have to ask for a handout unless it really is a SHTF.  And we grow and can most of our food.  I'm still not as prepared as I would wish for TSHTF, but really who is?  There is so much that we can't forsee.  We can make educated guesses but that is all.

What I really want is to join or start a group in our area of north eastern washington state, but I have not met one person who has even a month supply of emergency supplies.  And I don't want to broadcast around that we have lots of food reserves.

Been there, done that, on the food bank thing. You were lucky to only have to go once.
Both my parents worked all day to pay rent and utilities in the projects. Thank G-d we only
lived there 10 years or so. We used the food bank for a few years from my third grade until
the sixth grade. We slept on the floor until we got an Income tax return for beds. We got
our couch out of the trash. Our table was a gift from the local church. Us kids still ate sitting
on the floor. Mine is not the only story of poverty on these boards. We know how it feels too.
Most of us have gone through troubled times like yours. So in short: We're here for ya.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: motomom on April 20, 2010, 12:39:32 am
I got really interested in storing food and planning ahead when my husband and I went through our own personal SHTF.  Right after sept 11th my husbands job nosedived.  He tried to stick it out, but we had no money.  And I mean no money!  We had 3 children and a mountain of debt.  He got a night job cleaning a local church and I worked during the day babysitting in my home.  Putting all three kids in daycare would have taken care of any money I would have made working elsewhere.  It got so bad that I had to go to the food bank with my 3 little ones.  Let me tell you that was the most humiliating part of it.  I was sitting next to crack addicts and homeless people.  When I went into to be interviewed the lady behind the desk told me I shouldn't have had so many kids!  So it's OK to give food to drug addicts, but not to a struggling mom with three kids under 5?!! Talk about charity!!  After that I swore I would never be in the position where someone tells me right in front of my children that they shouldn't exist! 

One month later we threw in the towel, got a job two states away for good money and started fresh.  Now we are out of debt and will never get credit or payments of any kind.  I have enough food stored for a year so I will never have to ask for a handout unless it really is a SHTF.  And we grow and can most of our food.  I'm still not as prepared as I would wish for TSHTF, but really who is?  There is so much that we can't forsee.  We can make educated guesses but that is all.

What I really want is to join or start a group in our area of north eastern washington state, but I have not met one person who has even a month supply of emergency supplies.  And I don't want to broadcast around that we have lots of food reserves.

Been there, done that.  You know the really funny part, though?  I had bought, previous to my financial crash, a Ford Escort station wagon that we could all fit in if one kid rode in the back storage area.  It was 2 years old when I went to apply for food stamps.

I was turned down because, as the lady at the FS office told me, "your car is too new."  I guess they thought I could have sold it and bought a junker, which I guess I could have, but the Escort was paid for.  I never went back, instead we bought a used lawnmower at a garage sale, and my kids and I started mowing and cleaning yards for extra cash.  I came out way better off.

I feel like Scarlet O'Hara, "I'll never go hungry again."    ^_^
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Faydra6 on April 23, 2010, 09:12:10 am

I feel like Scarlet O'Hara, "I'll never go hungry again."    ^_^

You know I was thinking that line while I typed the above!
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: IrishPyroWolf1994 on June 28, 2010, 03:22:53 pm
Let's say the US and world economy tanks  (if you don't see the precipice, open your eyes).

The politicians want to continue to leech. They make up smooth BS to keep the great middle slaving for them.
The court advisors (gov't school professors) want to continue leeching. They make up nice numbers and theories supporting the ruling elite - and their own full tummies.
The welfare/social security recipients wanna continue leeching. They chant "Amen" to the above.
The great middle doesn't wanna be cast out unprotected, so they do as told, believe all, deny truth, etc.
The palace guard is happy to kick, shoot, stomp and otherwise abuse as long as they are granted license and given an occasionaly shiny medal.

There may be some I overlooked, but there is THE ENEMY.
Who are the fighters, and who are their friends?  (As an aside, it only takes about 3% of the former and 10% of the latter.)

Now I drag in another thread on this forum regarding personality types as defined by: http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes1.htm.

The "Masterminds" (Introverted iNtuitive Thinking Judging) though rare, are heavily represented in this forum.  Obviously they are going to work for liberty. 

Who do we work with?
How do we find them?

I think this personality typing is the key.  Define your market.  Target your market. 

Get ready, cuz it's coming soon. Or find Gault's Gulch ...  but I'm thinking we can win this one from the outside (remote spaces) in (population centers)... or, if at least the remote spaces remain free, I'm cool with that... assuming mine is remote enough.

So what I am asking here is for help in defining the market for libertarian ideas.  I know my ENFJ wife is a strong teammate.  Can we count on all ENFJ's? 
Maybe all Thinkers? 
How would we target-market that group?
Maybe there is another way to select our target market.

We better get started.


As an aside, I had the horrible thought tonight that my wife's son is a happy member of the palace guard "sorry, Mom, I had to shoot your husband".  While I am ... who I am  "Sorry, Hon, I hadda shoot your son".  This is a particularly icky thought, but awfully possible - Has the book already been written?  If not, get busy, Claire.


Yeah I agree with you there....and I don't really know about whether or not there is a high concentration of Rational Masterminds on this forum....all I know, is that I am one.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: gaurdduck on June 28, 2010, 04:48:54 pm
Who are the fighters, and who are their friends?  (As an aside, it only takes about 3% of the former and 10% of the latter.)

"It seemed that rebellion must have an unassailable base, something guarded not merely from attack, but from the fear of it: such a base as we had in the Red Sea Parts, the desert, or in the minds of the men we converted to our creed. It must have a sophisticated alien enemy, in the form of a disciplined army of occupation too small to fulfill the doctrine of acreage: too few to adjust number to space, in order to dominate the whole area effectively from fortified posts. It must have a friendly population, not actively friendly, but sympathetic to the point of not betraying rebel movements to the enemy. Rebellions can be made by 2 percent, active in a striking force, and 98 percent passively sympathetic. The few active rebels must have the qualities of speed and endurance, ubiquity and independence of arteries of supply. They must have the technical equipment to destroy or paralyse the enemy’s organized communications, for irregular war is fairly Willisen’s definition of strategy, “the study of communication” in its extreme degree, of attack where the enemy is not." - T. E Lawrence
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: MamaLiberty on June 28, 2010, 05:18:58 pm
Leave off the "mastermind" crap. That invariably leads to tyranny and loss of individuality.

True leaders area also doers. People who can think rationally, extrapolate reason and action from many disparate facts and situations, then help others to learn to do so as well... these are the leaders. They are not threatened by other leaders and thinkers.

I am only a marginal "fighter," but I am a thinker. I am a friend.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: jamie on June 28, 2010, 08:00:47 pm
Leave off the "mastermind" crap. That invariably leads to tyranny and loss of individuality.

True leaders area also doers. People who can think rationally, extrapolate reason and action from many disparate facts and situations, then help others to learn to do so as well... these are the leaders. They are not threatened by other leaders and thinkers.

I am only a marginal "fighter," but I am a thinker. I am a friend.


I think the mastermind reference is to a test, supposedly  tells you what kind of person you are. Rational mastermind is one of the categories. It is like the MMPI? Minnesota multi phasic something or other?  Don't remember much more. 
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: LaughingBear on June 28, 2010, 08:12:00 pm
Keirsey Temperament Sorter?

http://www.keirsey.com/default.aspx

Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: IrishPyroWolf1994 on June 28, 2010, 11:20:02 pm
Leave off the "mastermind" crap. That invariably leads to tyranny and loss of individuality.

True leaders area also doers. People who can think rationally, extrapolate reason and action from many disparate facts and situations, then help others to learn to do so as well... these are the leaders. They are not threatened by other leaders and thinkers.

I am only a marginal "fighter," but I am a thinker. I am a friend.


It's a type of personality test.....here's a link right her, to a description of it http://www.keirsey.com/handler.aspx?s=keirsey&f=fourtemps&tab=5&c=mastermind

All it is, is a personality, test result. They don't mean that I like to control people, or anything like that. It (the personality test which is based on the Myers-Briggs-Jung test) is surprisingly accurate the link to the test is right here
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Rarick on June 29, 2010, 04:56:21 am
I already took a bunch of those tests, a long time ago, offline, using books from a mom and pop used book place............ Oh. did I mention I can be paranoid............

It isn't a bad thing to know yourself, and these tests are of use for that.  Be cautious of who may misuse the tools against you.  That goes for trading in SHTF too, trade away OLD stuff and act like you traded for it.  A source of always NEW(er) stuff will mark you as a stockpile and target.  Displaying a skill to fix as opposed to things to take would probably be better too.  Who is going to kill the Blacksmith? aside from a seriously bent individual.  If a local community knows you have skills and are willing to trade, you have security from them, and those others that have skills you need..........Codependancy isn't all bad.  Only the modern version of it is.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: cowboy up on August 22, 2010, 08:58:08 pm
I already took a bunch of those tests, a long time ago, offline, using books from a mom and pop used book place............ Oh. did I mention I can be paranoid............

It isn't a bad thing to know yourself, and these tests are of use for that.  Be cautious of who may misuse the tools against you.  That goes for trading in SHTF too, trade away OLD stuff and act like you traded for it.  A source of always NEW(er) stuff will mark you as a stockpile and target.  Displaying a skill to fix as opposed to things to take would probably be better too.  Who is going to kill the Blacksmith? aside from a seriously bent individual.  If a local community knows you have skills and are willing to trade, you have security from them, and those others that have skills you need..........Codependancy isn't all bad.  Only the modern version of it is.

Having been into this doomer/shtf stuff for a few years, I am convinced that it is the skillset and not necessarily the stuff that will keep you alive and maybe even doing well when the collapse comes. 
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: gaurdduck on August 26, 2010, 05:46:34 am
I already took a bunch of those tests, a long time ago, offline, using books from a mom and pop used book place............ Oh. did I mention I can be paranoid............

It isn't a bad thing to know yourself, and these tests are of use for that.  Be cautious of who may misuse the tools against you.  That goes for trading in SHTF too, trade away OLD stuff and act like you traded for it.  A source of always NEW(er) stuff will mark you as a stockpile and target.  Displaying a skill to fix as opposed to things to take would probably be better too.  Who is going to kill the Blacksmith? aside from a seriously bent individual.  If a local community knows you have skills and are willing to trade, you have security from them, and those others that have skills you need..........Codependancy isn't all bad.  Only the modern version of it is.

Having been into this doomer/shtf stuff for a few years, I am convinced that it is the skillset and not necessarily the stuff that will keep you alive and maybe even doing well when the collapse comes. 

After the initial chaos is over, I expect to do better than I am now. LOL
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Rarick on August 27, 2010, 04:06:05 am
Yes, skillset and mindset are probably the 2 main factors.  Stuff just gives tools/ resources to make things easier.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: slidemansailor on August 27, 2010, 11:17:41 am
Yes, skillset and mindset are probably the 2 main factors.  Stuff just gives tools/ resources to make things easier.

JUST tools?  There is a HUGE difference between SlidemanSailor with his tools and SlidemanSailor without his tools.  I regret that it would darn-near take a semi-trailer to move me, but when it comes to fixing and making do, I can do.  Without them, I'm just an old man with a good work ethic.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: cowboy up on August 27, 2010, 10:24:54 pm
Yes, skillset and mindset are probably the 2 main factors.  Stuff just gives tools/ resources to make things easier.

JUST tools?  There is a HUGE difference between SlidemanSailor with his tools and SlidemanSailor without his tools.  I regret that it would darn-near take a semi-trailer to move me, but when it comes to fixing and making do, I can do.  Without them, I'm just an old man with a good work ethic.

But a good worth ethic already puts you way way way ahead of most of your fellow citizens.

Most of whom do not know which end of the shovel engages the earth, just saying'.

Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Rarick on August 28, 2010, 04:37:05 am
With skills and know how you can make your own tools, having the tools already makes things easier.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: slidemansailor on August 28, 2010, 12:00:14 pm
With skills and know how you can make your own tools, having the tools already makes things easier.

There is a world of difference between my metalshop, woodshop, hardware-electrical-plumbing-automotive supply store, reloading room, garden/farm shed and a couple of rocks cleverly attached to sticks with leather thongs.

;) Worse, I don't think I could make a trombone using tools I create even if I try to do nothing else with the rest of my life.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Rarick on August 31, 2010, 09:38:51 am
Yes, That is a given within what I said........... :mellow:  I would much rather have the skills with the shop full of tools to go with them and the parts/ raw material to make what I need on hand, but life dictates differently, doesn't it? 

Knowledge/ skill means you can make a radio. Now actually having the tools and materials determines how easy that is.  If you have to make tools to make tools to make the parts to make the radio.............that is harder, but is does not mean you cannot make a radio.  It may make it infeaseable to do so.........
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: ZooT_aLLures on August 31, 2010, 06:03:13 pm
Quote
If you have to make tools to make tools to make the parts to make the radio

Yeah............but so goes the manufacture of complex products............

the trip is in the setup time and costs...........and a "one-off" might cost a thousand dollars to make, yet making one thousand might drop that price to $20 each............

And yeah.............one could make a trombone............but after making all the tooling needed to make one, that might cost $50K...........one might as well start making trombones to recover that $50K........and end up selling trombones for $500(just an arbitrary number) two years later.........that is.........if enough people wanted trombones............and if folks didn't want to declare trombones to be "illegal" because they want cheap .223 cartridges...........and they can't get cheap .223 ammo as long as the ammo maker has to compete with the trombone maker for brass............so the ammo maker buys the brass plant and genetically modifies it to make predator brass that makes trombones sound like whiskey farts......so the trombone maker builds his own brass plant, and then the two go to war over the copper used to make the brass............and they both "push the button" and blow the world into smithereens and everyone dies all because slidemansailor mentioned building a god damned trombone on some internet forum :laugh:

Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: gaurdduck on August 31, 2010, 09:19:30 pm
Quote
If you have to make tools to make tools to make the parts to make the radio

Yeah............but so goes the manufacture of complex products............

the trip is in the setup time and costs...........and a "one-off" might cost a thousand dollars to make, yet making one thousand might drop that price to $20 each............

And yeah.............one could make a trombone............but after making all the tooling needed to make one, that might cost $50K...........one might as well start making trombones to recover that $50K........and end up selling trombones for $500(just an arbitrary number) two years later.........that is.........if enough people wanted trombones............and if folks didn't want to declare trombones to be "illegal" because they want cheap .223 cartridges...........and they can't get cheap .223 ammo as long as the ammo maker has to compete with the trombone maker for brass............so the ammo maker buys the brass plant and genetically modifies it to make predator brass that makes trombones sound like whiskey farts......so the trombone maker builds his own brass plant, and then the two go to war over the copper used to make the brass............and they both "push the button" and blow the world into smithereens and everyone dies all because slidemansailor mentioned building a god damned trombone on some internet forum :laugh:



(http://www.getyourhandsdirty.net/publicsquare/Smileys/classic/hide.gif)
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: knobster on September 01, 2010, 05:30:05 am
Quote
If you have to make tools to make tools to make the parts to make the radio

Yeah............but so goes the manufacture of complex products............

the trip is in the setup time and costs...........and a "one-off" might cost a thousand dollars to make, yet making one thousand might drop that price to $20 each............

And yeah.............one could make a trombone............but after making all the tooling needed to make one, that might cost $50K...........one might as well start making trombones to recover that $50K........and end up selling trombones for $500(just an arbitrary number) two years later.........that is.........if enough people wanted trombones............and if folks didn't want to declare trombones to be "illegal" because they want cheap .223 cartridges...........and they can't get cheap .223 ammo as long as the ammo maker has to compete with the trombone maker for brass............so the ammo maker buys the brass plant and genetically modifies it to make predator brass that makes trombones sound like whiskey farts......so the trombone maker builds his own brass plant, and then the two go to war over the copper used to make the brass............and they both "push the button" and blow the world into smithereens and everyone dies all because slidemansailor mentioned building a god damned trombone on some internet forum :laugh:



Wow... your mind sounds like a scary place!  ^_^
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: ZooT_aLLures on September 01, 2010, 06:32:00 am
er uh............I think I broke something after reading all the weird assed threads going as of late  :laugh:
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: MamaLiberty on September 01, 2010, 06:51:45 am
This whole thread is scary.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: bull on September 01, 2010, 08:37:31 pm
ok here goes , in looking for a new home away for here. I made the best guess and started looking in the wrong area first.
in doing so i stood out and realised i wouldnt fit in . So when i found a place that we liked it grew on us to the point of thats the one.   we drove by and checked out the closest town checking for flags, vetrans , i talked to the people at the gas station like i knew them. And the people fishing in the river , their questions were simple -do you live here , do you need a job , what are we going to do with your presadent. i said he's not my presadent. and thay all smiled and were very nice ,4 job offers in 3 days.
Now to do it all over again it only took 40 years to build all my contacts here .
its my hands and the way i talk to people the smile of experiance people know confidance.
even the state troopers i met were nice and smile i had been made, ided ( oh your the nice faimly thats moving in )
i was plaining to try to be a gray man , to damn late so its keep my head down time.
knowlage ,experenance, then planning. were all in this together , doomers ,prepers , just one icestorm and you have knowlage
and experenance next time you will plan and be ready.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: slidemansailor on September 02, 2010, 01:34:30 am
ROTFLMAO

Dang. My fourth trombone caused the end of the world. Now I have nowhere to play. Crap.

Thanks, ZooT, for a good laugh... that did help make the point.


Quote
If you have to make tools to make tools to make the parts to make the radio

Yeah............but so goes the manufacture of complex products............

the trip is in the setup time and costs...........and a "one-off" might cost a thousand dollars to make, yet making one thousand might drop that price to $20 each............

And yeah.............one could make a trombone............but after making all the tooling needed to make one, that might cost $50K...........one might as well start making trombones to recover that $50K........and end up selling trombones for $500(just an arbitrary number) two years later.........that is.........if enough people wanted trombones............and if folks didn't want to declare trombones to be "illegal" because they want cheap .223 cartridges...........and they can't get cheap .223 ammo as long as the ammo maker has to compete with the trombone maker for brass............so the ammo maker buys the brass plant and genetically modifies it to make predator brass that makes trombones sound like whiskey farts......so the trombone maker builds his own brass plant, and then the two go to war over the copper used to make the brass............and they both "push the button" and blow the world into smithereens and everyone dies all because slidemansailor mentioned building a god damned trombone on some internet forum :laugh:


Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: motomom on September 03, 2010, 03:44:08 pm
Slideman, no need to cause the end of the world 'cause you are trying to build a trombone.  Just lemme know what you want, I've got lots of 'em!
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: reepotomac on July 03, 2011, 07:29:12 pm
well, alot of you are talking about a severe SHTF scenario, but one little thing- Don't let your car gas tank get less than half full.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: gaurdduck on July 03, 2011, 08:40:44 pm
well, alot of you are talking about a severe SHTF scenario, but one little thing- Don't let your car gas tank get less than half full.

Nice to meet you too.

Don't forget to lock your doors before leaving the house. Don't eat poison ivy. Try to remember to eat yer brekkie. Dunnyrats are not food.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: Rarick on July 05, 2011, 03:48:49 am
<snort> Half-full or  only 1 gallon left, I have set both means of GOOD up to run on SVO Give me any greasy spoon and I will be fine- any diesel place will work too.  Heck I can run on a lot of stuff including that stuff you find in little silver tanks on abandoned camp trailers and RV's...........   Spent a lot of time learning and setting up the engines to handle that too.  ( an empty tank and refill money on your trailer? You now know one of many who may have been thankful for your deciding to hoof it).

Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: knobster on July 05, 2011, 05:21:38 am
well, alot of you are talking about a severe SHTF scenario, but one little thing- Don't let your car gas tank get less than half full.

Welcome reepotomac.  You might want to poke around here a bit before offering pearls of wisdom.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: BrokenSailor on September 03, 2011, 10:51:06 pm
Hi Everyone,
  I usually frequent another forum.  I have been poking around here reading your site and you seem to have a very nice crowd here.  Respectful.  Some of you mention Networking for a SHTF scenario.  How many of you have actually accomplished any networking on this forum?  I sure would like to meet some like minded people in my area who don't scoff at being prepared. 

-Regards,
BS
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: DiabloLoco on September 04, 2011, 09:30:06 am
Hi Everyone,
  I usually frequent another forum.  I have been poking around here reading your site and you seem to have a very nice crowd here.  Respectful.  Some of you mention Networking for a SHTF scenario.  How many of you have actually accomplished any networking on this forum?  I sure would like to meet some like minded people in my area who don't scoff at being prepared. 

-Regards,
BS
What area are you in?
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: da gooch on September 04, 2011, 11:51:51 pm
Where We Be (https://thementalmilitia.com/forums/index.php?topic=7483.0)

Totally voluntary of course.
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: slidemansailor on September 10, 2011, 09:52:21 pm
Dang, Gooch, the place is getting overrun with sailors. If I start feeling normal, average or common, whatever will I do?

Oh, by the way, the where-we-are list at the top is 3 years old. Where do I lobby or request to get it updated?
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: gaurdduck on September 11, 2011, 01:50:31 am
Aaaaaaarrrgghh!
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: da gooch on September 11, 2011, 05:28:33 pm
Dang, Gooch, the place is getting overrun with sailors. If I start feeling normal, average or common, whatever will I do?

Oh, by the way, the where-we-are list at the top is 3 years old. Where do I lobby or request to get it updated?


Last I heard Dare2BFree was the lady with the keys.

Mayhap that Mr Dare will know and can possibly pass the keys along to the next victim  er uhm volunteer?

It may be that we will need a Moderator to open the access hatches for you. Oops ... well well  looky there.  Mr Dare IS a moderator .... :rolleyes:

Quote
If I start feeling normal, average or common, whatever will I do?
Grow a mustache or cut the present one off?
How about a new beard?
Oooo wait!  How about Maori facial tats? Those are still pretty Uncommon.
Then again you could open your own business and make suckers  er ...  customers out of all of the sailors wandering around.(?)

Rum drinks usually sell pretty well in sailing groups.  :dontknow:
And if they ask for those frilly little umbrellas you'll know just what kind of "Sailor" they are won't ya?   Aarrrrgh  :ph34r:

{He runs rapidly away ....}
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: gaurdduck on September 11, 2011, 11:20:30 pm
Yeah, what Captain Gooch said... Just don't make it an "all you can eat" joint or you'll be out of business in to time.

~ Friendly local distiller/ Pirate King
Title: Re: planning for TSHTF
Post by: GK on April 25, 2015, 05:09:26 pm
did you know that you can get PAID to go to college? Anyone can get  5k of grants, per year, which is enough to cover all your expenses at a cheap college.  You can then also get 13k of loans, which, if you work as a nurse, teacher, cop, etc, after college, are "forgiven".  If your GPA is over  3.25, you can also get yet another 4k of grants per year. Tax and SS free, folks. for FIVE years!  :-) and you'll nearly have a master's degree and a LONG history of applying yourself, as well as something to write  (on resumes) and tell people about what you do/ did and where you've been.