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[Bear]

JJ,

Thanks for the background and the explanation of Article VI.

A question, though -- what happened to those officers and men who refused unlawful orders?
I imagine that there would be some sort of investigation as to whether the refusal was justified.
I can't imagine a military organization taking the refusal of an order lightly.

It puts the officer giving the order in a pickle - either his subordinate is right and he passed along
an order he shouldn't have (embarrassing), or his subordinate is wrong, and has violated the UCMJ.

Since the News Media hasn't reported any stories about this part of the story either way, I'm in
the dark as to what actually has happened. Do you have any anecdotal stories from reliable sources
as to how this turned out?

Bear

[vonu]

The military justice machine is as corrupt as the civilian, judging from what happened to Michael New.

[gooch]

The military justice machine is as corrupt as the civilian, judging from what happened to Michael New.

For those interested ....

World Net Daily

[jamie]

We won't know for certain how many soldiers  will follow orders until it happens.  I think it depends more on the severity of the depression, semi collapse or whatever it turns out to be. 

I don't think the code of conduct is any more important than the oath to support and defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic.  That didn't work either.

A large part of the military believes any order, other than the obviously wrong ones, ie execute that POW, are lawful and correct because they come from legal superiors and therefore are to be obeyed. They are taught to state their misgivings or whatever and when that is ignored, they have to shut up and soldier. 

For example I think the invasion of Iraq was legally and morally wrong.  But since congress authorized use of force that makes it a legal and even just war for many. I am able to separate " authority" and "law" from what I believe is right. Many others believe that authority and law are all that is required.

J. Glenn Gray wrote a book about WW2 and one of the things I remember from it was that many soldiers turn off their own conscience and follow orders. They give up their moral responsibility. Their thinking is that they personally bear no blame or fault. How could they since they were following orders.


If Nuremberg set an example why aren't bush and cronies,  and most of congress before a court?  Like the Nazi leadership.

Another thing to consider is whatever spin or propaganda effort the military will have.  Ordinary americans will be "terrorists", cowards, oxygen wasters whatever.

There will always be some who go along. Just how many is the question.

I also think to walk the talk is another thing entirely.

I did read a few years ago about the Bundeswehr code.  I thought it was great.

[vonu]

There are a great many Americans that believe everything they are told by the talking heads on the telescreen, and will turn to those talking heads when nothing else resembling an authority or commander are available. Whoever tells the talking heads what to say under those circumstances will be the purveyor of the gospel for all but a few, by default.

[Rarick]

Okay folks... another first-timer here...one a bit disheartened by some of the comments on this post. I wonder, of those of you warning about joining the military... were any of you enlisted or commissioned in any branch of service. I suspect not, or if you were, you weren't "in" for long. I was, I retired pretty close to as high as you could go and am here to tell you some of the conversations I took part in would scare the bejesus out of the denizens of the 5-sided-cesspool and the garden patch across the Potomac... I'm retired, one of my sons a survivor of Uncle Sam's Misguided Children trips to both war zones, and he reiterated what I heard in my time. I am utterly certain a LARGE portion of the ACTIVE DUTY military would turn on their commanders or ignore any order to go after the civilian populace within the US. Add that to the Guard and Reserve either refusing call-up or turning as well and it would make for another "Great War of Northern Aggression." Yes, they would put bayonets in the streets if ordered, but - and this is a BIG but, they would only go so far.  Ya'll may disagree or I may be wrong, but I'll bet on what I saw, heard, and said. 

For my money, anyone looking for "free" training, education, and experience to apply on the outside SHOULD do a stint in the service. I would avoid the Army or USMC simply based on what others have said was their rationale for seeking the training. The Guard is a no-go simply because of the behind the scenes wheeling and dealing Governors are doing to make deals to their political benefit with THE Gov. On the other hand the Reserves are a good way to get what you're looking for and still live at home. Now, before anyone jumps- take a hard look at just who in the reserves is getting sent to Iraq or Afghanistan.  The vast majority of career fields just don't go, especially with the politically correct draw-down with Nov coming.

I've helped two young folks choose this route. They're both home with their friends with no aspect of going anywhere soon. Oh, one is volunteering for a trip to California to fight the fires- of course, he is a fireman so it figures.

SORRY IF I'M OFF ON A TANGENT HERE, like he said a lurker here who just never had anything to say until now- back to my Lee Turret Press...

On the side I'm and ENFJ..I was an ENFP but I guess we all evolve. I was first administered the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator test when Stormin' Norman was setting up his staffs for the first gulf war.

Whew- I jumped so fast I never even set up a signature block

Raised a wolf-
Now a retired sheep dog – still looking after the Sheeple…

I had a long stretch in the service.  Your observations match mine, at some point whole units would just walk.  Their logic would be- "this is against the constitution, not bending or flexing it a bit, but totally WRONG.  It is time to become a part of the people- because WE ARE the GOV!".   It has been a while since I left- but I do not think you can get a survivor type you need in the situation in Iraq and still have them totally obedient to TPTB.  They may be willing to do things there that they would never tolerate here- different situations and therefore somewhat different rules.

There are several pros and cons to joining the service ranging from the government will get extensive personal data on you.  Fingerprint and- maybe- DNA on down to hat & shoe size and allergies.  You do get a serious crash course in fitness- tradeskill(s)- independant living (no gas, electricity etc.).  Knowing what I know now I could have got much the same thing from the volunteer fire department someone mentioned.  I would not have had the travel tho'.

Being young, you have an advantage, this is a long term plan that takes time and you have it.  You also have a disadvantage- impatience that results from wanting to get it done NOW.  Make you plan work on 3's set several goals and work on them as you can, when 1 is blocked "for now" you can work on another.

Since you are a reader- look at our reading list.  There are some good titles there both recreational and technical that will help you make INFORMED decisions.  That is the difference between most folks on here and the sheep- the sheep make decisions based on 30sec- 1 minute sound bytes or 1 program.  We generally spend a week or so gathering info on a subject them trying out the skills- preferably with someone who does it for a living- or with some experience.

God- to be 20 with the knowledge I have now..............

[vonu]

I suspect that a great many of potential military recruits would avoid the military like the plague if they were given a copy of USMC Major General Smedley D. Butler's "War is a Racket," assuming they are literate.

[Rarick]

Life is a racket-  figure out yours and use it.   Rackets can return balls in a nice cooperative manner- or smash heads.  It is the choice of the person holding it.  Get out of the racket what you regard as a fair trade.

[JJ]

Bear,

  I honestly don't know what happened to the 2 I'm utterly certain said no... It appears it was something batallion or above knew would make national headlines and so was quietly "dealt with". Both are still serving officers, whether they'll retire generals remains to be seen. Of the SrNCOs I've spoken to, none will "go public" and none have received disciplinary action... none of them know me all that well and this is to be expected. I was after all, an "alte kamerade" of one of their friends.

  I have witnessed earlier (1990) refusals to do things that aircrew felt was not what they signed up for and know we escorted them to their aircraft and know they took off... whether they actually carried out the missions (2 5-man crews about a month (?) apart) is information I am nor privy to. I know one crew went complaining all the way to the aircraft and the other went stone-faced and silent. Beyond that, I know they both came back alive... When I say "know" I saw it... I led the security detail that "escorted" them to their aircraft.  Neither mission was against the American people or anything so grandiose as world changing events but the incidents serve to "prove" to me both individuals and groups will stand up and say, "No" despite what it means to them or their careers. Meet for a beer for details, I will not provide them herein.

Gerry, Rarick, Vonu, et al - the sad thing is I could be wrong. I had an office mate while on the Air Staff who was an admitted and vocal homophobe. Everything mentioned on the news about gays and lesbians ilicited and response something along the lines of "we oughta line 'em all up and shoot them..." As an avowed libertarian and constitutionalist, I had had enough one fine morning, stopped his rant for the day by quietly saying, "Be careful Randy, you start shooting at "them" and you might be surpirsed whos shooting back. This resulted in two things, less rants from Randy and a persistent rumor I was "in the closet." Randy was a damn good SrNCO- a good leader under fire and in garrison...but would have let his views allow him to follow unlawful and unconstitutional orders. So, I think it will go unit by unit. Rangers will obey, it's their karma... SF and Special Ops as a whole won't. The higher the espirit de corps the more likely they'll follow orders- even bad ones. The bulk of the Air Force will sit it out and so on... as I said earlier, civil war on top of whatever caused the TEOTWAWKI... add this to the mix of 10s of 1000s fleeing cities and....that's why we're talkin'....  in the end Rarick you said it bro- "If I knew then, what I know now..."

Raised a wolf
Now a retired Sheep Dog - still looking after the sheeple

[OLD TIRED RN]

Welcome JJ. Hope you'll enjoy your time. Enjoy reading of your military experience.  Take care. RN

[MamaLiberty]

Forget nursing school, unless you would enjoy working for the government and shuffling endless paperwork. I retired early because I couldn't stand one more day of kissing government regulation butts via Medicare and all its evil children.

EMT or fireman/rescue sounds like a good idea for a young man who wants to learn skills that will be valuable to his community.

Some books you might consider also:
http://www.javelinpress.com/order.html
Hologram of Liberty - Boston T. Party
Boston's Gun Bible

[vonu]

Becoming a naturopath wouldn't be a bad idea if medicine attracts you.
That's where medicine was before diseases became pharmaceutical deficiencies.

[MamaLiberty]

Becoming a naturopath wouldn't be a bad idea if medicine attracts you.
That's where medicine was before diseases became pharmaceutical deficiencies.

That's going to take a great many years and, probably, a lot of money. Doesn't sound like much of an idea for a 20 year old who still doesn't know what he really wants to do. Let's not overwhelm the poor guy. 

I suspect there isn't really time for someone to start from scratch on this now anyway.

[vonu]

Becoming a naturopath wouldn't be a bad idea if medicine attracts you.
That's where medicine was before diseases became pharmaceutical deficiencies.

That's going to take a great many years and, probably, a lot of money. Doesn't sound like much of an idea for a 20 year old who still doesn't know what he really wants to do. Let's not overwhelm the poor guy. 

I suspect there isn't really time for someone to start from scratch on this now anyway.

Can be done inexpensively by mail at herbalhealer.com

[MamaLiberty]

And worth about as much as a mail order doctorate in chemistry, I'm sure. You don't get that kind of education without many years of hands on experience as well as serious book learning. I've been at it informally for about 30 years and I've just scratched the surface. Please don't trivialize this field!