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[Claire]

Er ... ahem. This seems sort of personal and all. But if there are other FSP members in the forums (and I know there are), I'd be curious about how you ranked the states on your ballot.

Waiting for the FSP results feels sort of like waiting for national election results, back in the days before the networks called them three hours before the polls closed. The kids in our family would stay awake as long as we could with our eyes practically propped open. Eventually we'd crash out, but sometime after midnight, our political-junky mom would come and wake us up and we'd eagerly crowd into the den to hear the final results. It was better than New Years, almost as good as Christmas.

I was sad when the networks not only went to instant-call mode, but when "Who won?" became "Who cares?" With the FSP there's balloting to be excited about again. So, even though it feels a little like asking somebody their bra size or their income, I'm asking anyway. Does anyone want to tell?

I'll start:

1. Montana
2. Alaska
3. Wyoming
4. Idaho
5. Maine
6. New Hampshire
7. South Dakota

... and in a big tie for last place ...

10. Vermont
10. North Dakota
10. Delaware (Delaware would have been 11th. Or 100th, if there'd been such a choice.)

Now I'll feel foolishly naked if someone else doesn't reveal his or her choices. So comon guys ...

Claire
 

[Ian]

I'm game - let me pull out my reference copy of my ballot...

My choices were actually pretty similar to yours:

1 - Montana
2 - Wyoming
3 - New Hampshire
4 - Idaho
5 - Maine
5 - Alaska
6 - South Dakota
10 - Vermont
10 - North Dakota
10 - Delaware

I love the independent attitude and open space of the west, and in combination with the low/moderate population and relatively amenable political climate, I think they give us the best chances. I haven't been to NH, but I have been convinced that a similar attitude exists there, so I'll put it in third. I find AK, ID, and ME enticing, but none of them seemed to meet the standard set by MT in particular. South Dakota strikes me as a serious stretch, but it's not so bad as to rate last place. Finally, VT, ND, and DE appear virtually unworkable. I didn't opt out of any states, and if the Project chooses one of those and gets 20,000 members, I'll move there - but I hope the rest of the membership has the good sense to reject them. On the other hand, if either MT or WY is chosen, I'll eagerly move long before we hit 20,000.

[Claire]

I find AK, ID, and ME enticing, but none of them seemed to meet the standard set by MT in particular. South Dakota strikes me as a serious stretch, but it's not so bad as to rate last place. Finally, VT, ND, and DE appear virtually unworkable. I didn't opt out of any states, and if the Project chooses one of those and gets 20,000 members, I'll move there

Thanks for sharing, Ian. ;-)

Great minds! My original choices were actually even more similar to yours (about the only difference was that I'd have reversed Idaho and NH. Then at the last moment, I fell under Debra's evil infl ... I mean I was intellectually persuaded to look more closely at the benefits of Alaska. But it seems unlikely that 20,000 would move there. (And the two FSP conclave attendees from Alaska also pointed out several negatives about the political structure of the state, like its lack of county organization.) I'm with you; I'll go where the FSP votes to go. But the west seems so overwhelmingly the natual place for freedom to take root and spread that I'd venture east of the Mississippi with misgivings. I look forward to being in Montana and joining with the fierce and powerful crew from Alberta that attended the FSP Grand Western Conference last May.
 

[Carl]

1. ID
2. NH
3. WY
4. VT
5. AK
6. SD
7. MT
8. ND
9. DE
10. ME

I was largely torn between places I personally like and being able to find a job. But then, I'm currently in a place I don't particularly like, and I still can't find a job.
 

[Sunni]

Since I'm not a porcupine I don't have a ballot to show, but I will offer a confession ...

I'm almost as excited about learning the results of the FSP voting as you are, Claire. It will be very interesting to know where the 'pines choose to go -- and if it's anywhere in the west my family is sure to seriously consider moving there.

Another confession: If I were a 'pine, I'd have a damned difficult time deciding between MT and WY in the top spot.

Okay, back to the stopes with me ...

[Claire]

1. ID
2. NH
3. WY
4. VT
5. AK
6. SD
7. MT
 

Hm. Interesting, Carl. I'm curious. What's Idaho got that places it so high? And what's Montana got (or not got) that ranks it so low?

I placed ID 4th for reasons a lot like yours. I simply like the place (the Panhandle part, that is). But FSP-wise it's got a lot of disadvantages. And MT ... well, I'm so prejudiced in its favor, that 7th place on anybody's ballot surprises me. (Okay, there is that damned income tax, and those brutal property taxes ...)

And Sunni, you can be an honorary porcupine, any time. I think it's neat that somebody shares this sense of almost Christmas-like excitement.

Really, am I just prejudiced, that the West strikes me as the truly natural place for the FSP? Flowering of freedom in the cramped east, surrounded by stodginess and statism? I can't see it. Like Ian, I'm willing to try. But it boggles the mind. But then, I admit to spending almost no time in the east.So it may be both prejudice and ignorance.

[Carl]

Hm. Interesting, Carl. I'm curious. What's Idaho got that places it so high? And what's Montana got (or not got) that ranks it so low?
 

It's largely a matter of how I perceived employment potential. My original planned votes were quite different, but when balloting time came 'round (un)employment was very much on my mind.

If earning a living weren't an issue, WY would probably have been number one.

[Claire]

If earning a living weren't an issue, WY would probably have been number one.

I'm really sorry about the dreary employment picture, Carl. If freedom work paid, you'd be worth a million a year, at least.

Claire

[Dana]

Well, if Sunni can reply to this thread (without being an official voting Porcupine) I suppose I (as an FSP "friend" but not member) can too.

Perhaps a year or so before Jason Sorens wrote that first FSP essay, I had a similar idea.  I lived with my family in California, and it occurred to me that California was pretty far down the list in the freedom category.  Surely there must be better places to live?

I did a little research on my own, and came up with (1) Alaska, (2) New Hampshire, and (3) Wyoming as my top freedom picks (in that order).  Note that unlike the FSP, I based these choices solely on existing conditions for a single family moving in, not on the potential for 20,000 activists.  And I can't claim to have done research that afternoon anywhere near as extensive as what's been done for the FSP.

Reasons having nothing to do with freedom (employment, etc.) were also pushing us to move, and on those criteria, New Hampshire came out on top.

So while I was born in California, grew up in California, had lived in California my entire life (and had never even used a snow shovel) my family and I moved to New Hampshire a little over two and a half years ago.

I have to say it's one of the best decisions we ever made.

I didn't agree to sign on with the FSP because I feel like I've already been through the exercise, made my choice, and voted with my feet (all recently) --- and I can't imagine any other state (Alaska excepted) being anything other than a downgrade (in the freedom category) from where I now currently live.  Signing up and opting out of eight or nine states also seemed, well, a little slimy.

With that said, I wish those 20,000 the absolute best of luck, and if another state starts to look significantly better than New Hampshire because they've moved there and started fixing things, in the final analysis I'd probably go join them anyway.

I also have to confess feeling like a kid two days before Christmas wondering how this vote turns out.  

The one thing I *don't* get is this East-West bias.  Objectively speaking, pro-freedom and anti-freedom states (to the degree they are already pro or anti-freedom) certainly don't fall on anything close to East-West lines.  Look at California in the West (vs. say Nevada).  Look at New Hampshire in the East (vs. say, Massachussetts.)  Two states that are geographically close can be miles apart politically and culturally.

Is it an issue of opting for the familiar over the unfamiliar?   (Ok, well, maybe so.  It didn't really occur to me to move to, say, Costa Rica for precisely that reason.)

Anyone want to explain the East-West thing to me?

Dana

 

[Sunni]

Claire asked:

Really, am I just prejudiced, that the West strikes me as the truly natural place for the FSP?

I don't think so. I was born in and lived over 30 years in Ohio, and moved to Wyoming from there. Since then I've had a number of, er, interesting living situations ... but back to the point: I don't think it's a prejudice. I think there are good reasons for preferring the west to the east for many individuals.

The west was founded by pioneers who had a positive outlook and a value of self-reliance and individualism that many freedom-seekers today cherish. Much of that tradition carries on today in the real west -- by which I mean areas that have not yet become "Kalifornia East". I recall covering a Montana news story of the harsher DUI limit and ending MT's open-carry in cars being voted down: the local MADD nanny was whining about it, and the legislator (IIRC) the paper quoted basically said, "Fuck you. That's part of Montana culture and we don't want that to change. If you don't like it you can leave."

The lower population density also helps. In all honesty, it helps individuals to tolerate differences among neighbors when the neighbors' houses aren't 3 feet from each other! Even if one does live in a town, being able to bike a few minutes to get out into truly open area is very liberating. For me, the lack of people helps provide a more balanced perspective on what's really important in life. I'd much rather focus my energy on thinking about what's best for my children and how to be a better parent than worrying the CPS is going to come calling because the neighbors object to my son having his own pocket knife.

To wrap up before I get too long-winded   , on our way back east from the LRT conclave just a week ago we noticed -- as we invariably do -- that with each state east we moved, the speed limit decreased. Mind you, the population density didn't necessarily increase concomitantly. Those little white signs along the highway are, IMO, a good rough guidepost to the amount of freedom you'll find in the state.

There are genuine pockets of freedom in the east -- as Dana and others in other venues have pointed out, NH is one -- but my greatest concern is just that: they are at best pockets. When everyone around you is worrying about what the neighbors are doing (or not doing), and "for the children" this and "for your own good" that, how long is your own freedom going to last? That isn't to say that the west is perfect -- Wyoming recently bowed to pressure to up its child-restraint limits -- but I prefer to take my chances there than someplace that's closer to MA, DC, NY, etc.

To address your question, Dana, I don't know if it's the familiar so much as it is thinking in terms of stereotypes for some individuals. Snake dons professor's hat Stereotypes aren't necessarily bad things -- they tend to be rooted in reality and are "mental shortcuts" that allow an individual to deal with a concept that she or he doesn't have a lot of familiarity with. Hat is shed.

I think many think of the west in fairly stereotyped ways -- those ways being more gun-friendly (overall true), self-reliant (largely true, especially outside urban areas), and tolerant (again, mostly true IME). But I think that many don't view Kalifornia as being "the west", even though it is the westernmost of the 48 contiguous states. For many, "west" also connotes wide open space, and LA just doesn't fit into that picture. Nor does a lot of Kalifornia, even though much of the southern area, as I understand it, is genuinely "west" by these criteria. As you rightly point out yourself, culture is a large part of the picture, and as such, Kal just doesn't fit in with the largely-accepted ideas of the west.

[Claire]

I also have to confess feeling like a kid two days before Christmas wondering how this vote turns out.  

The one thing I *don't* get is this East-West bias.  Objectively speaking, pro-freedom and anti-freedom states (to the degree they are already pro or anti-freedom) certainly don't fall on anything close to East-West lines.  Look at California in the West (vs. say Nevada).  Look at New Hampshire in the East (vs. say, Massachussetts.)  Two states that are geographically close can be miles apart politically and culturally.

Anyone want to explain the East-West thing to me?
 

Nice post, Dana. Maybe we'll meet up if NH is the chosen state. I'd LOVE to explain the east-west bias to you. But LOL, I haven't a clue myself. I think the key is that there's nothing "objective" about it. I think it's very much a matter of "breathing free" and how one perceives that.

However, trying to be objective, I don't think you can just point to east and west and say there are some free and unfree states in each. That's certainly true. But if you look at the west you'll see vast expanses of space, lightly, but easily filled with some pretty cussed people -- Nevada, Wyoming, Utah, most of Colorado, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Alaska. You'll see NO such vast expanses in the east. And what free states you do see are uncomfortably hemmed in by their opposites.

I confess freely that part of my western bias is just that -- bias. And familiarity. But part of it is that sense of being able to move around, of freedom having room to stretch out.

I also think it's true that in general (only in general, not in every case), westerners are more radical in their freedom stance than easterners are. For instance, I heard from several people that a New Hampshirite on the FSP discussion list said it caused "irreparable damage" to the FSP to publicize the participation of people like me, Vin S., J.J. Johnson and Boston T. Party. And worse, a New Hampshirite (don't know whether it was the same one) said we shouldn't be talking about Boston's concept of a "rifle culture."

Well, maybe that was just one guy. But what kind of freedom is it if we're not even supposed to *talk* about a rifle culture? No freedom lover in the intermountain west would be likely to utter such nonsense.

I also perceive the west as being way more open, in general, to new ideas, new people, and alternate lifestyles.

And that's why I'm comfortable with the west. And why -- right or wrong -- when I consider the prospect of moving east, I feel ... cramped. That's the only word that describes my gut reaction. Cramped.

Claire

[Jack Harrison]

1. NH
2. AK
3. WY
4. MT
5. ME
6. VT
7. ID
8. SD
9. DE
10. ND

I put DE as number 9 ONLY because I really hate cold weather, but I'll go no matter what state selected.

Hadn't planned on putting AK anywhere near the top, but I simply could not ignore the states' reports - AK was stunningly favorable, IMO.
 

[Augustwest]

Hey, has it occurred to anyone that all AG Ashcroft had to do was get 2501 "Justice" Dept. employees to sign up for FSP, have 'em all vote for Montana or Wyoming, and when the Yellowstone Caldera finally blows, all you "aid and comfort to the enemy," freedom-lovin' freaks will be out of his "hair?"

Well has it?  

Oh, wait. I put my beanie on shiny side-in this morning. Never mind...

I'm not (yet) a porcupine - workin' on some things in life that may free me up to sign on (fingers crossed) - but I too have a festive glow going on as October approaches.

FWIW, I'da voted NH, ME, (skewed by a fondness for and ties to New England), AK, MT, WY, then I don't know what.

[Stan]

1. New Hampshire
2. Idaho
3. Alaska
4. Montana
5. Wyoming
6. Vermont
7. Maine
8. North Dakota
9. South Dakota
10. Delaware

I put New Hampshire in the #1 spot even though it's surrounded by statists, and has a relatively high population.  But, I found the fact that it has an FSP friendly governor, a highly successful LP and a relatively objective press to be irresistable!

Idaho was a very close second.  Alaska or Montana would not dissappoint either.

I'll go to whatever state is chosen however.  This is quite possibly the LAST chance to save our country.

[Claire]

1. New Hampshire
2. Idaho
3. Alaska
4. Montana
5. Wyoming

This is quite possibly the LAST chance to save our country.

It's amazing that, for all the FSP's hotly discussed east-west differences, many of our choices are very similar. And it's just as amazing how high Alaska ranks in those choices.

  You may be too right, Jack, that this is our last chance.

Five years ago, I couldn't have imagined getting behind a project like this. (Moving someplace on the vote of other people! Putting even an ounce of hope in "the system.") But Jason and crew have made it profoundly sensible.